Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-05-24 08:16:22

From "Index» Life support systems» 3D Printers", post #296 by "Mars_B4_Moon", a thing of value.
Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 2,074
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Objects can now be 3D-printed in opaque resin
https://techxplore.com/news/2022-05-3d- … resin.html
A team of EPFL engineers has developed a 3D-printing method that uses light to make objects out of opaque resin in a matter of seconds. Their breakthrough could have promising applications in the biomedical industry, such as to make artificial arteries.
3D printed satellite antennas can be made in space with help of sunlight
https://www.space.com/satellites-antenn … d-in-space
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Today 07:58:41)

I have gotten things from Mars_B4_Moon before.

As it happens I was going to start posting about orbital matters for both Mars and the Earth/Moon. Manufacturing included.

In my opinion warming the poles of Mars should not be overdone. The objectives should be to get the longer lasting deposits of CO2 vaporized, and to try to reduce the further condensation of CO2 in the Martian winters. Also, to more greatly humidify the Martian atmosphere, using the water vapor to form high altitude clouds to hold heat in the winters, and to more greatly allow for the distribution of water to lower latitudes as snow and frost deposits.

I don't think that it would be profitable to completely melt the Martian ice caps for many reasons, which I have mentioned in previous postings.

So, some orbital mirrors for treating the polar deposits, and for supporting high latitude habitations of humans and their machines as well.

However, for Mars it seems that a lot of important items are associated with the Equator. We might want orbital mirrors for activities there, and for the moons of Mars.

The previous post's methods could benefit from orbital mirrors that would send solar energy down the Heliostat arrays in the nights. This would however tend to heat up the ground where the arrays were at so, it might interfere with creating a cold condensation spot. But you could pick and choose for various arrays. Cold Spot, or Relay of sunshine.

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It appears that the manufacture of new types of materials in orbit will become very important for Earth. I see no reason why it would not be important for Mars. Materials manufactured in orbit, that would have useful qualities would help to support both the orbital and surface communities.

So, in my opinion it is really silly to think in terms of only a surface occupation. And their are many other reasons that that is true, such as the unknowns of gravity on biology, and the utility of orbital methods to terraform Mars.

For getting materials from orbit to the surface, I guess Earth and Mars each have their own strengths. Gravity intensity, and air braking are two of the very significant items.

For Mars, terraforming the atmosphere would bring a possible pressure of ~~~25 mBar in the low spots so that would greatly enhance the landing of ships. Also Mars has a lot of raw materials in it's moons, and the process of lifting raw materials from the surface of Mars to orbit will be much easier than for Earth.

So, it is my opinion that the surface activities will supplement the orbital activities and then of course just the reverse as well.

Any binary fight about that, smells suspiciously like verbal sabotage that haters who don't want the Mars project to succeed would be likely to generate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-24 08:38:56)

Void · 2022-05-26 12:16:53

It has become an awareness to me that space technology both orbital and transiting, terraforming, and settling planets are all to be worked together to get the best results. So, I don't see it as incorrect at all to talk about space technology that might facilitate these things in a terraform section. If you are going to terraform, you can just imagine and speak of it, you have to have actually tools, that allow you to do it with material alterations.

Isaac Arthur goes a bit far for me, with active support, but that is likely because I am old and losing the ability to assimilate new things. So, it is important for me to try to build tolerance for new things that don't quite seem practical. Too keep trying to find a way to accept them. Exposure to his works then can be useful to myself and other oldies, perhaps.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3
Title:

Dark Sky Stations, Stratospheric Satellites, and Ultra Low Orbit Infrastructure
YouTube · 5,000+ views · 5 hr ago · by Isaac Arthur

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I feel that additional materials could be associated with the excellent materials of the video provided by Isaac Arthur.

I am thinking of things other than full orbital. Everything has a time duration even orbital device(s). We tend to think of them as eternal and that aircraft are interval in nature. They all have a time duration of operation for particular activities.

I feel that there is a great deal more that can be done over time. It appears that some things are already catching on for this sort of thing.

Things for this could be to get propellants from non-Earth sources, or from orbit from the Earth's upper atmosphere. This would allow a Starship to fill it's landing propellants while in orbit, so that it would not have to then lift them to orbit. For Earth, this could also perhaps come from the Moon. For Mars, then perhaps from Phobos and Deimos. For both just possibly eventually from asteroids. That will be off in the future for a while I am afraid.

However what seems just on the horizon is multi-part landing schemes. For instance I read or dreamed that it is being considered to dump cargo out of the Starship while in freefall, and have that cargo assisted to a destination.

-A full air breathing drone system might be dumped out of a Starship after getting though the atmosphere's thermal barrier. But of course then you have to bring the drone to orbit, which is a cost.

-Or cargo dumped out of Starship could have a mid-air intercept assistance. That is not too unlike snagging the electron rocket, if you would include parachutes. I think an unmanned drone is more appropriate for this than a helicopter.

Many other options might exist. I have considered using the Dream Chaser lifting body for this, with a heat shield and some propulsion.

But now I see that it might be possible to eject such a cargo carrying device from Starship while in free fall, where no engines, no parachute, no landing gear, no heat shield are used. But if it could do a flair to stall, and get caught by an air breathing catcher device, that may be of interest.

So then the two major advantages that I see at this time are 1) Direct delivery to user is possible, and unloading of cargo mid-air in freefall. 2) The Starship lands without any cargo in it even though it brought significant cargo into the Earth's atmosphere.

I am not sure why, but for some of these things, instead of an ocean splash down option you might use Elon Musk's "Bouncy House", provided you could get the craft and it's cargo accurately there.

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The alternative is Starship lands, probably offshore, and is unloaded and the cargo has to be shipped to various locations by various methods. Either method has costs, but it is probably not a "One Size Fits All" decision/calculation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-26 12:45:23)

Void · 2022-05-27 11:00:21

To continue with the previous post, it seems to boil down to the advantage of having less air resistance going up, which I believe is the case where Starship 1.0 and I presume even more Starship 2.0 would do well. And the other part is if the contents of the ship are then dispersed, you then have an expansion of surface area, which, if handled correctly can be an advantage coming down.

This is truer for Earth than Mars but can possibly be true for both. Of course the "Crates/Containers" are added dry mass going up, so then coming down, they are going to have to add a greater value than they would cost.

You would have the choice of disgorging the "Crates/Containers" before getting through the heat barrier, which would give you more time, but then you must have individual heat shields for each "Crate/Container". And of course that is a cost.

Using a "Dream Chaser" analog, you would have at least 3 choices.
1) "Dream Chaser" is carried to orbit fully equipped, (Sort of), is launched from Starship, picks up a cargo, and returns to Earth much like the existing "Dream Chaser".
2) "Dream Chaser" has no heat shield, and so is taken to orbit, and loaded with cargo while being in the Starship, then Starship takes it though the heat barrier, and then releases it to atmosphere while in atmospheric free fall. Then "Dream Chaser" lands on a runway with landing gear.
3) "Dream Chaser" is indeed a crate with wings, no landing gear, and the minimum flight gear. It is released to atmosphere during free fall, and must be caught by an air breathing drone, which will take it to it's destination.

The or course you might work with "Starliner" in a similar manner and so equip it in equivalent manner as to the "Dream Chaser" methods suggested, but you might also include parachutes/parafoils.

So, I like it.

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In a somewhat similar way, I suggest that a collection of Starships/Crates" be assembled in Earth/Moon orbit, to travel to Mars. Upon entry to atmosphere however, they would travel individually to create more surface area. I think a goal would be to provide "Convenience Gravity" along the way, which may still allow people to get unfit for immediate activities on the Martian surface, but I suggest that a handful of the crew be subjected to a higher gravity field by slinging a smaller object such as a capsule from the main collection of ships, a few weeks prior to arrival to Mars. You might only need 2 or 3 people who would be fully fit upon arrival.

I believe that Dragon was thought to possibly be able to land on Mars, but not take off. So, this capsule(s) might not be wasted, but I expect that the "Fit Crew" would be put back into the Starships prior to landing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-27 11:15:38)

Void · 2022-05-27 11:17:56

Next:
The words entropy, disequilibrium, and the phrase "Natural Catalysts".

Query: "Natural Catalysts"

Fetch: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Natural+C … e9&ntref=1

Useful article: https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i8/natu … lysts.html
Quote:

A more natural approach to catalysts
To make chemical processing more sustainable, chemists turn to animal, vegetable, and mineral sources for catalytic materials
by Stephen K. Ritter

I don't specialize in chemistry, and only just barely navigate it.

Query: "Radioactivity in ocean sediments feed microbes"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Radioacti … e7bdd335e8

A response:
Natural/Nature: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 103802.htm
Quote:

The team discovered that the creation of these chemicals is amplified significantly by minerals in marine sediment. In contrast to the conventional view that life in sediment is fueled by products of photosynthesis, an ecosystem fueled by irradiation of water begins just meters below the seafloor in much of the open ocean. This radiation-fueled world is one of Earth's volumetrically largest ecosystems.

So, in my view the sediment serves "Like" a catalyst. It is then natural.

I anticipate duplicating this on Mars to create greenhouse gasses which I hope would be low cost. One possible use of spent nuclear fuel would be to dilute it in simulant for sediments and place that on the bottom of body of water with microbial actions to create the greenhouse gasses. There may be some toxic metals like Plutonium, so that could be a problem, but maybe it can be controlled and accepted on Mars.

But I am wondering if we can treat dirt on Mars as a source of natural catalysts in certain processes?

I am currently focused on the Sand Dune materials at this time, but there may be others.

For catalysts in industry on Earth, we typically want catalysts to be re-usable to reduce cost and to have enough of them for continued process activity.

However, given dune grains Martian atmosphere, water, and solar thermal energy, can something of use be done?

So, by superheating Martian atmosphere and creating very hot or superheated steam, and then to introduce a flow of dune particles, can an organic output occur, a disequilibrium of chemicals?

As for the dune materials, it may be possible to weather them into clay, which could also be useful.

So, unlike ocean sediments that use radioactive decay as the energy source to produce disequilibrium, we would use high heat vibrations of molecules induced by concentrated solar heat.

Of course we are tapping into entropy to produce disequilibrium, which we then hope to utilize to our purposes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-27 11:38:39)

Void · 2022-05-31 11:31:24

Sort of continuing with some of what was in the last post.....

Sand Dunes: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sa … RE&first=1

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010c … %20olivine.

Query: "Composition of Martian sand dunes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars
Quote:

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[54] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[55] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

There should be more that could be done with these materials.
Storing thermal energy is one thing: https://polarnightenergy.fi/

And for Mars, it should be possible to store both hot and cold.

I have been considering organic materials as for building on Mars. I suppose Hemp has it's attractiveness.

But other things as well. The advantages I can see for Hemp is that you might put it into Urea Bricks, or into Pykrete.

I believe the dune materials are of Pyroxene and Olivine primarily. (Basalt)
I believe that these are not fully Oxidized.
For Olivine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl … 20products.
Quote:

Formation of H2 and CH4 by weathering of olivine at temperatures between 30 and 70°C

This is an interesting quote:

The results show low temperature CH4 production that is probably influenced by chromite and magnetite as catalysts.

I favor the consideration of solar concentrated heat in order to speed up artificial serpentinization of Olivine in the dune materials. Quote:

Weathering of olivine is sometimes called serpentinization due to the formation of serpentine minerals as alteration products.

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-163X/11/8/794 … 0magnetite.
Quote:

Contrasted Effect of Spinel and Pyroxene on Molecular Hydrogen (H2) Production during Serpentinization of Olivine

Quote:

Serpentinization is a hydrothermal alteration of ultramafic rocks at temperatures of ≤500 °C, and the reaction of olivine and pyroxene in ultramafic rocks with aqueous fluids results in the production of serpentine, (±) brucite, (±) talc and (±) magnetite.

So, some possible notion that a mixture of Martian Atmosphere, and steam and dune materials might produce H2 and CH4 and I think perhaps clays, as products of induced weathering, with the assistance of concentrated solar heat.

But I have also mentioned organic materials and specifically hemp products. What happens if you mix organic matter with dune materials and heat that in a solar oven?

Query: "Pyrolysis of Organic materials"
https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-area … 20charcoal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

So, the likely outcome, I think would be the further reduction of Oxygen from the dune materials and possibly the production of an assortment of Hydrocarbons, especially if you added CO2 from the Martian atmosphere, or just Martian Atmosphere.

The reduced dune materials might then be put though some other process, I suggest this one: https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.
Quote:

ESA plans to make the first oxygen on the moon

But in this case the reduced materials may not have that much Oxygen in them anymore.
Quote:

“Being able to extract oxygen from moonrock, along with usable metals, will be a game changer for lunar exploration, allowing the international explorers set to return to the moon to ‘live off the land’ without being dependent on long and expensive terrestrial supply lines,” said Binns.

So, the metals might be a target. Even a crude alloy in bulk may be put to some significant use, I hope.

The possible reason that Oxygen would not so much be wanted, is that if you did indeed grow a lot of biological materials to add to this process, you would have already had a biologically produced byproduct of Oxygen.

I don't want to get too specific about where to grow this biological materials, but I have a tendency to like heliostats to put photons into pole facing greenhouses, as I anticipate that this may provide methods to filter out U.V. light and possibly avoid some hard radiation from the sun.

With such a system of heliostats, it could be possible when desired to re-aim the heliostats to an oven or heat engine as desired for various purposes. Plants generally can deal with variant days of more or less light.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-31 12:42:46)

Void · 2022-06-01 10:19:03

Well, I am thinking about the "Valles Marineris" today: (Again): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris

I guess this previously viewed stuff is OK to add: Query: "Origin and evolution of the layered deposits in the Valles Marineris, Mars"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3587900868

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/ho … n%20system.
Picture Quote: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.de70828f9e2 … ImgRaw&r=0

Snow on Mars, near equator:
https://www.space.com/1966-snow-mars-cr … ears%20ago.
Quote:

Glacial deposits near the equator on Mars are remnants of snow on the red planet long ago, scientists said today.
Spacecraft observations in recent years have revealed ice-rich landforms and other clues, including boulders strewn about, that appear to have been caused by glaciers as recently as 350,000 years to 4 million years ago.

From here, I have to confess will be speculation. Since we only have bits and pieces of evidence, multiple lines of speculation may be appropriate.

So, we have the likelihood that at times the polar ice caps more accumulate water ice from the rest of the planet that may be being freeze dried, and probably there may be the inverse. And of course there can be a neutral situation.

But this other speculated item, high insulating clouds, could be influenced by the amount of donor ice surface on the planet. Also, possibly by the amount of dust in the high atmosphere which could be influenced by tiny impactors.

A highly tilted axis is suspected as being a longer term 350,000 to 4,000,000 year possibility.

We also have the possibility of large impactors, which may be greater than for Earth, as it is closer to the Asteroid belt and Jupiter.

So, I am guessing that high cloud on Mars is self re-enforcing or defeated. The more clouds, the more evaporation from the poles and the more clouds, presumably. Of course the quantity and nature of nucleation objects at the cloud altitude would matter as well.

So, I am speculating that there might be a "Tipping" oscillation possible. There could be so many factors.

But a certain notion may hold true, that once you get some extra ice off of the ice caps, then it might fall as snow at lower latitudes, and so then temporarily create a situation where Mars can maintain high clouds. This in turn might vaporize the CO2 caps to a degree and so alter the atmosphere and its weather patterns.

This article is not the same, it is about CO2 ice clouds at high elevations. So, there is much to learn: https://www.universetoday.com/12463/ice … %20surface.
Quote:

“The clouds imaged by OMEGA can reduce the Sun’s apparent brightness by up to 40 per cent,” said Montmessin. “This means that they cast quite a dense shadow and this has a noticeable effect on the local ground temperature. Temperatures in the shadow can be up to 10 degrees C cooler than their surroundings, and this in turn modifies the local weather, particularly the winds.”
Since the CO2 clouds are mostly seen in equatorial regions, the OMEGA team believes that the unexpected shape of the clouds and large size of their ice crystals can be explained by the extreme variations in daily temperature that occur near

Where the CO2 ice clouds appear to exist now, this article talks about water ice clouds on high, warming early Mars up:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedormi … 85138d71aa Quote:

“Our work supports the hypothesis that the warming came from high-altitude water ice clouds,” says Kite.

If I understand the above thinking, then for desert planets, if they have the correct amount of exposed ice that can be evaporated to create high altitude water ice clouds, then the planet could be warmed by it.

So, I am wondering if at times the climate/weather of Mars can oscillate into a more distributive mode than it is just now? A sort of ice/clouds run away warming, which obviously also has to have a method to collapse into a polar accumulative mode from time to time.

There is supposed to be enough CO2 in the atmosphere and poles to allow for a double of atmospheric pressure, which is supposed to allow for snows and even temporary snow melt water streams.

I have previously thought that under those conditions then dust storm activity would increase, and maybe it does. But a greater greenhouse effect should warm the poles greater than the equator or Hellas, and so might not stimulate air circulation to that degree. It may be the dust storms are what can put a lid on the greenhouse effect though.

It is interesting that the article about present day CO2 ice clouds says that they shade the equator.

So, this suggests that there can be variations of types and intensities of clouds, and locations of them and locations of exposed ice.

This actually suggests that by doing selective methods of cloud seeding some type of terraforming of the planet might be done, perhaps influencing the planet to exhibit more of what we might consider it's better self. It also suggests to me that rather than working so hard to melt the polar ice caps, a much lesser task it to evaporate a bit more of them and cause the greater creation of bast case high altitude clouds for Mars. (Best case from a human point of view).

And then this can make me wonder if there can be snowfalls in era's other than extreme polar tilt, towards the equator and the rift valley.

------

So then the Rift Valley is now said to have a large deposit of what appears to be ice/permafrost/brine?

This is better supported/explained if it comes from a form of ice volcanism/artesian springs, which might have been charged by snowfall melts in the past. But it is possible to have extremely archaic ice deposits also? I feel that the least likely thing would be a current method of condensation, but maybe I am wrong.

I suppose that the best case for current condensation might be if a very dense brine pool filled and covered with dirt was the reservoir of water. In that case, perhaps water vapor could be absorbed directly into it.

Or it might be water eruptions/ice eruptions.

Anyway I have to move on to other things. For now though here is a possible method to use mirrors in the rift valley to light up caves cut into the cliff walls. Certainly not the only way to grow plants.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-02 21:07:56)

tahanson43206 · 2022-06-02 08:27:38

For Void re #281

Thanks for the delightful image of a plant growing in a cave on Mars!

SearchTerm:Cave illustration: growing plant in cave on Mars using reflected sunlight

Would you (Void) be willing to assist SpaceNut with one of your terrific drawings?

The illustration would show an (imaginary) water settling tank in SpaceNut's back yard in New Hampshire.

The illustration would show gravity separation, with iron at the bottom of the tank, and lighter elements/molecules above ...

Right in the center would be the least contaminated water, which would be drawn off for further processing before packaging for consumption or use.

I don't know if the physical world corresponds to this image, but I get the impression it might.

Should your image prove accurate in modeling reality, then it would surely have use on Mars.

(th)

Void · 2022-06-02 20:47:12

(th)

Perhaps there should be a topic for this. I think a lot can be found on the internet. I think we should seek that before making drawing(s).

Query: "Iron in water, settling tank"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Iron+in+w … eb9fbb5fa7

Specific item: https://www.nationalpolyindustries.com. … age%20tank.
Quote:

Cascade aerators
The most common form are cascade aerators which is comprised of a series of steps which water flows over. This allows the iron in the water to oxidise and form particles, before flowing into a settling tank. Iron particles then fall to the bottom of your settling tanks, and iron-free water is siphoned into a water storage tank.
Using Settling Tanks to Improve Your Water Quality

So, perhaps I understand a little. The Oxygen is sort of an Acid? The Iron Ions then are base. Then the Oxygen Oxidizes the iron and it becomes particles that can sink and that are not dissolved in water. I wonder if a pinch of Carbonation might also help to make a very weak acid?

I wonder if other metal ions could also be oxidized into particles as well. I am not sure that there would be "Lighter" materials then fresh water relative to Oxidized metal particles.

I also wonder about the possible use of Flocculation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocculation

Good chances such chemicals might be toxic for drinking water but perhaps not for wash water?

Query: "Drinking water flocculation"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Drinking+ … 43c3d115f0

Specific article: https://www.magazinesweekly.com/underst … %20in%20it.
Quote:

Flocculation is the water purification process to remove contaminants from the water. It is the most common process to treat wastewater management, stormwater, and drinking water, making it clean and disinfected to use. The process of flocculation is separating the solution from the sediment and debris mixed in it.
Understanding the Process of Flocculation in Water Treatment

A drinking water article: https://www.drinking-water.org/treatmen … cculation/

Quote:

DRINKING WATER
HOME
WATER FILTERS
WATER TREATMENT
WATER DISTRIBUTION
COAGULATION FLOCCULATION
Many water purification methods require pretreatments such as coagulation and flocculation.
A coagulant is added to the source water in traditional coagulation-flocculation-sedimentation to produce an attraction between the suspended particles. Slowly stirring the fluid causes the particles to clump together forming “flocs.” The water is then pumped into a silent sedimentation basin, where the solids will settle out.
The suspended particles are likewise coagulated and flocculated in dissolved air flotation systems, but instead of sedimentation, pressured air bubbles drive them to the water surface, where they may be skimmed off.
A point-of-use flocculation-chlorination system has been developed, particularly for underdeveloped nations. To purify the water, it employs small packets of chemicals and inexpensive equipment like buckets and a cloth filter.
Finally, lime softening is a technique for “softening” water, or removing calcium and magnesium mineral ions from it. The stuff that settles out in this situation is dissolved salts, not suspended silt.
Find out more about water contamination and water treatment here.

Yes this could be important for Mars. Although I expect the water there may be "Soft"? CO2 and Perchlorates in it? Of course Perchlorates will need to be delt with.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-02 21:04:21)

Void · 2022-06-02 21:08:50

Returning to this, from Post #281:

I see this as possibly being very good for smaller cliffs on Mesa's in the Rift Valley.
Mesa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa

While we might consider the main canyon walls, landslides of enormous magnitude would be a risk, and the sun wandering between the north and south tropic line may be occulted by the canyon walls certain parts of the year.

This of course is more of a "Subtractive Manufacturing". Not additive for the most part.

And I anticipate that there could be at least 4 separate tunnel systems that could connect these into very extensive hab-ways.

70-100 mBar
333 mBar
Skylab mix
Full Earth pressure O2/N2/Argon

I think that it can be noticed that this sort of system will have very good radiation protections, as the mirrors will not pass hard radiation, and it is likely that the UV can be attenuated by some possible various means.

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As for radiation, I stumbled on something good today: https://www.outlookindia.com/national/e … ews-198918
Quote:

Explained: The First Human Trial Of Virus That Can Kill Cancer
Animal studies have shown that Vaxinia, a modified pox virus, can shrink colon, lung, breast, ovarian and pancreatic cancer tumors.

So, this aspect of the problems of elevated radiation exposure may have some additional level of treatment by the time it is an issue on Mars. This then helps to make Mars more habitable.

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I think that special spacesuits might allow people to work in the lower pressures with ability to partially overcome balloon suit glove issues.
I am thinking that if Optimus of Tesla, will be able to do work tasks, then a suit could have one or two robot arms on it, so that the user will not have to use gloved hands for fine work.

So, you might have four arms for spacesuit work. Two balloon arms to do some gripping, and two robot arms to do some of the other work not so easily done without them.

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I am puzzling over the notion of high salinity low temperature water supporting low pressure photosynthetic organisms/microbes.

Hypersaline lakes test the limits of life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersali … 0gallon%29.

This one is friendlier than what I am contemplating but it is quite interesting as a different type of option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

This one, "Lake Vida" has my attention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida
Quote:

Lake Vida is one of the largest lakes in the McMurdo Dry Valley region and is a closed-basin endorheic lake. The permanent surface ice on the lake is the thickest non-glacial ice on earth, reaching a depth of at least 21 metres (69 ft). The ice at depth is saturated with brine that is seven times as saline as seawater.[1] The high salinity allows the brine to remain liquid at an average yearly water temperature of −13 °C (9 °F). The ice cap has sealed the saline brine from external air and water for thousands of years creating a time capsule for ancient DNA. This combination of lake features make Lake Vida a unique lacustrine ecosystem on Earth.[2]

Although there could be microbes that are more extreme, I am anticipating that this, for now suggests a limit that can be used.
Quote:

−13 °C (9 °F) and seven times as saline as seawater

So, then the question is, can we do a photosynthesis in such an environment? If there are organisms for it, then I think that we can get a relatively low cost source of Oxygen, organic matter, and distilled water.

I am inclined to believe that this fluid would not boil on Mars 5.5 mBar-11.4 mBar. And the relative humidity for air above it should be rather low.

A transparent vapor barrier would be needed above it to keep the drying winds out. It would not particularly need to hold an air pressure higher than the outside ambient, I think.

In reality though, the most minimal covering could very likely hold a small differential pressure, and so, you might bring the pressure level up just a bit, and also let the water be a bit warmer and less saline.

And I anticipate that the bottom would heat up a bit in sunlight so you might have a water film that was a bit warmer and a bit friendlier.

If the water was 1 foot deep of fresh water then that would add ~10 mBar pressure to that warmed film. Of course this will be brine, so a greater magnitude of pressure would occur.

So, estimating, that the enclosure might add 5 mBar pressure to the ambient, and the water layer would add maybe ~15 mBar pressure, then for parts of the Rift Valley, 9 + 5 + 12.3 = ~26.3 mBar pressure for the warm film. Additional warmth and reduced salinity would make the water activity better for life.

In the above, I am just estimating with guesses.

"specific gravity" of dead sea brine: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22specif … 78DF4805E9

Specifically: https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=jas.2008.3603.3611
Quote:

1.23
According to 2 sources
The salinity of the Dead Sea is around 332 g L -1 (Asmar and Ergenzinger, 2002), resulting in an average specific gravity for the brine of 1.23. The current area of the Dead Sea is around 650 km 2 with average width of 12 km.

The foot is an interesting measure for water on Mars. Fresh water will be about 10 mBar per foot, so I kind of like it. I think that maybe there should be a "Martian Foot", that has 10 "Inches", so that for each inch you get 1 mBar of column pressure.

Of course this would have special names, but would be approximately 1 foot long and have 10 increments within it.

So, if ~1 foot = 10 mBar fresh water, then dead Sea brine = 1.23 * 10 = 12.3 mBar.

But Dead Sea brine is normally a bit too salty for life. Algae blooms happen after rain dilutes the water.

So, we would have to roll back the salinity a bit to host algae. And so, maybe use 2 feet of brine, to compensate for a lower specific gravity.

We might actually want considerably more depth, if these bodies of water may actually be somehow used as boat canals.

Even if the water is cold there will still be evaporation into the air. So, a condensation method such as pumping when solar energy was available, would provide distilled water. Distilled water and brine can be a method to store energy as well in salt gradients.

------

Salt Gradient energy storage: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … er%20cycle.

Osmotic Power: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … er%20cycle.

Very tired.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-02 22:08:23)

Void · 2022-06-03 05:29:50

So, solar caves, and solar canals. But I am not anti-nuclear.

In the case where there is briny aquifer water on Mars, then perhaps the ability to get substances from it.

Uranium: https://phys.org/news/2022-06-method-en … hallenging.
Quote:

There are about 4.5 billion tons of uranium existing in seawater, which is 1,000 times more than terrestrial reserves. However, the extremely low uranium concentration and huge amounts of coexisting ions, especially K+, Na+, Ca2+ and Mg2+, makes the extraction of uranium from seawater very challenging.

At this point it does seem to be a lot of talk, but maybe it will get there. Maybe though direct mining would be done, and perhaps for Thorium.

But I am inclined to be optimistic about heavy metals on Mars. After all if the planet has not had subduction, and if the asteroids have been raining stuff onto the planet for eon's, then I would expect more heavy metals in crust materials and brines in it, and less having gone to the core.

So, I am currently thinking of three main energy activities that can compliment each other.
1) Solar Heliostats with solar cliff caves and tunnel networks. For Macro-organisms. Perhaps creating Bamboo among other things.
2) Solar Brine Canals. For Micro-organisms. Creating Biomass. These as radiators for Nuclear, perhaps, and associated with perchlorate mining/concentrating/storage.
3) Nuclear Fission.

*I think that it is kind of funny that the binary argument solar vs. nuclear can be resolved by just saying "Both".

So solar caves being heated by arrays of Heliostats, those Heliostats can be ganged to other purposes at times such as Pyrolysis of Organic Materials primarily generated in the brine canals. They also could shine on other processes.

So, for survival of dust storms, you then have a network of cliff cave/tunnels that was warmed by Heliostats, they will not cool off that fast.
Then you have Organic fuel and food(s) storage and Perchlorate storage.
Then you have Nuclear Fission.

I think that this would fit well into the rift valley structure.

Canals would be segmented, likely have Quonset hut roofs, and have sphincters , (that is doors), to separate segments. The watercraft I have in mind again is robotic canoes, and to assist them there would be robotic portage equipment.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-03 05:49:09)

Void · 2022-06-03 07:53:28

From: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Rejuvenation - reversing aging", Post #32:

Quote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/02/heal … index.html
Quote:
The 'Benjamin Button' effect: Scientists can reverse aging in mice. The goal is to do the same for humans
By Sandee LaMotte, CNN
Updated 0606 GMT (1406 HKT) June 3, 2022
So, what about a world where humans persist longer to be consumers, and robots do lots of productive work?
Then perhaps with greater wealth, more children, maybe even artificial wombs, since lots of women don't want to be women. Not a criticism, just an observation. Yes, men messed up as well? Sure, that's true also.
But I have never been into the juvenile girls against boys gender xenophobia process that I was raised in.
But people living longer, and robots doing lots of labor.
I think I am very interested in the possibility of Avatar robots in Earth/Moon orbits and surely orbits of Mars as well. But this then gets off topic. I will copy this post to......."Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.", post #286.

So, if the Tesla Optimus robot works, then I wonder about these being in orbit as well. So, previously I thought about them on the Moon, and they could be as well. But to build orbital power stations for Earth, (And Mars).

So, what if you had just 1,000 Optimus Robots in orbit with other automation and robotics? 10,000? And so on...............

I see no reason that it could not become millions. Humans on the surface of Earth might participate with AI to run these, and so participate in space, even if they are not normally types that would want to do space activities.

A mass production of wealth in orbits, without the need for humans in orbit? (But I think we would then have so much wealth that there could be huge amounts of humans in orbit, as the robots would have built up life support methods in space.

So, then I presume solar orbital power, and that also for Mars. If you mass build them in the Earth/Moon subsystem, then you could fly them to Mars, using magnetic bubble propulsion from the solar wind.

Why not?

Done.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/el … uxbndlbing
Quote:

Elon Musk delays Tesla’s A.I. Day to finish work on the Optimus humanoid robot
Christiaan Hetzner - 1h ago

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-06-03 08:07:47)

Void · 2022-06-05 11:04:27

I have been thinking about "Optimus" in orbit, and this has brought me to some odd thinking.

The Robot proposal: https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines … the-robot/
https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines … the-robot/

While this would be vastly useful on Earth, there comes a point where you can wonder "What about for Space?".

In my just previous post, I mentioned this and thought that a lot of human activity could be replaced in space by these things which would be somewhat autonomous and even though perhaps as avatars to humans.

But then in that case, the productivity of resources would then further invite humans to live in space, I think.

And so then if 10 people on the Moon, then perhaps also 100 robots?

But there is a time latency from Earth, and the humans on the Moon may need to devote much of their time to things that robot/avatars cannot do well. The time latency is not a show stopper, but if humans are going to be in orbit(s), then perhaps from locations near the Moon humans could "Drive" these things.

This then invokes the Lunar Gateway which the membership generally hates. But I think it could be made better.

It could be a situation suitable for humans to "Go to the Moon", without "Going to the Moon".

Strangely I see this as perhaps fitting in with "The Gateway Foundation" and SpaceX.

Both could work with artificial gravity.

I think that these people are far too ambitious: https://gatewayspaceport.com/
But I like their materials.

But speculations for SpaceX, artificial gravity exist:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=SpaceX+ar … 7c8dd8131d

Our Dr. Johnson has suggested that a Starship in a tumble could generate up to .5 g. And that is very useful information.

Where SpaceX is building a Starship factory(s), I say make more still.

Make these Starships, the ones for this particular use, so that they will have a nose down orientation for most of the "Cabin Space".

If I understand it, typical Starships that go to Mars, will need to supply at least 6 months of life-support for up to 100 people?

Now, join at least 2 special Starships into a "Hub" simulator. Have abundant "Hub" materials, that is a place for each starship to hook to.

This would likely add too much mass for a transit to Mars, but would likely be fine for a Lunar Gateway activity.

So, then, perhaps the "Lunar Gateway" people could think to make the "Hub-Cradle" for these ships to hook into?

As for radiator protection, I anticipate lots of water bags, and the water perhaps even coming from the Moon.

Of course, there could be one of these in a more near Earth orbit as well.

So, between test data from these and from the Moon, the Gateway Foundation will have a better idea of how to build even towards the visions they already have.

And from this enhance Lunar Gateway, humans could run avatar robots and autonomous robots to help productivity on the Moon.

So, then the challenge would be for the Gateway Foundation to devise a hub-cradle for Starships.

So, to move this thing around you do have 2 or more Starships, but I am thinking steam propulsion for spin up and spin down and for station keeping. (Since there will be bags of water).

Query: "Steam propulsion in space"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Steam+pro … 755f68e9af

A specific item: https://spacenews.com/water-propulsion- … -up-steam/

The way I see it is while the water provides radiation protection, it can also be routed to small steam thrusters powered from solar panels, or I suppose nuclear, if you insist. It is only for spin up or spin down and station keeping so these do not have to be very big engines at all.

If you want ion thrusters, then do that and have fun with it. I think you get the idea.

More radiation protection: Query: "Magnetic field to shield lunar gateway"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Magnetic+ … BA21C7AED9

Specific Item: https://www.universetoday.com/155605/a- … her%20side.
Quote:

If successful, the design for magnetic shielding could be added to to NASA’s planned Lunar Gateway station. Image courtesy Dr. D’Onghia. HaT stands for a Halbach Torus, which is a circular array of magnets that creates a stronger field on one side while reducing the field on the other side.

I am concerned that the solar wind will blow this around, but if so then perhaps it becomes a sail.

So, really, who can say what sort of method will be used to transport humans Earth/Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos?

What if it is a combination of things such as chemical propulsion and Solar Wind propulsions, and perhaps other things?

Then you might have what you need for various protections.

What I feel I am suggesting is the low buck path to finding out just how much synthetic gravity is needed for what purposes.

And of course what I have in mind is a collection of methods to allow the building and transportation of large solar power plants for use for both Earth and Mars.

Tired for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-05 19:45:29)

Void · 2022-06-05 19:52:49

Building on the previous post, I would suggest that while many of our familiar space propulsion needs require big engines that burn propellants, if you are in a situation where plasma of steam might do with very small engines, then that to some extend removes the boil off concern.

Granted, the starships would have a concern as to what to do if you want to get them back to LEO without propellants. I guess then options can be figured out, but I am not sure that would be desired very often. It would almost make sense to replace such a ship if it is outdated, add propellants to it and land it on the Moon, to become habitat. I am thinking like this as I feel that an updated starship could replace the one in the cradle, and then the outdated one might still be useful if refurbished from Lunar resources.

Not sure, just guessing on all of that.

As for the engines for these starships, perhaps they can be reduced in number in LEO before being sent to the outpost cradel.

Again, just guessing.

So, it is so weird how Tesla's Optimus may make the dreams of Jeff Bezos more possible. But then in the universe where the sky is my color, what Jeff Bezos wants may be best done around Mars

So, at some point resources from the Moon and Earth will need to be joined to make all these worlds flourish. Given a choice I prefer optimism and Optimus!

At this moment I think this possible structure may be set to the creation of power satellites for all three worlds. Earth, Luna, and Mars(Phobos/Deimos).

We might as well dream big.

So, to build things we need "Stuff". Much of it we would hope could come from the Moon.

I am not quite at this time a fan of sending raw regolith to orbits, rather I sort of think that a sort of "Pig Whatever" thing might be made on the Moon, and then sent for further processing into things like power plants, in the orbits. Practical means to send these "Pigs" to obit may be needed, oink oink No wings needed I suppose. But some kind of launch method.

Still thinking it though.

Another time cycle needed with dreaming perhaps? Any ideas out there?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-05 20:14:48)

Void · 2022-06-06 08:51:03

Well, this showed up: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Co … &FORM=VIRE

Here is a question about AI and Optimus. Will it be offended if any robot is used for the creation of wealth that it does not consume itself or for robot purposes?

Query: "Tom turbo, mystery science theatre, Joel drinks from the blender."

Well, I cannot call that moment in an episode up, but essentially Tom Turbo is infatuated with a blender and then Joel drinks from the blender and Tom Turbo is deeply offended that his machine love was violated. His blender princess, then taken from him.

I do wonder what AI's thinking may be on this. Probably it will not hate us for having less intelligent servant robots, but who can say?

In any case, the take over of AI could simply be an exchange from one oppressor to another. Does that surprise you? Well, I am OK with it.

This current culture has done everything possible I think to demote and demean people of my kind. I cannot say I love it. And the worst part of it is it is stupid in it's nature, doing things that make no sense, just so that some people can feel socially validated to something, whatever it is.

Wasted so many lives.

I might have a better conclusion of my life under AI than under hooting apes faking to be human.

I am sorry, but that is just truth. I am fine with it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-06 09:01:04)

Void · 2022-06-06 11:18:35

As I often do, I am "Appropriating" materials from another member and putting them here. This time:
Index» Terraformation» Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos, post #154
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,818
Email
Interesting piece on the general impracticality of terraforming Mars.
https://www.science20.com/robert_walker … rts-240782
The resource requirements for terraforming are obscene. The author recommends paraterraforming as a more practical approach. A few things he doesn't pick up on:
1) If paraterraforming happens over a significant portion of Mars, there will be a surface warming effect that will result in substantial degassing, whether intended or wanted or not;
2) A doubling of atmospheric pressure would reduce surface radiation levels substantially, negating the need to build literally everything underground;
3) The present thin atmosphere is actually advantageous in some ways. It allows, for example, electromagnetic launch of ships and materials from Mars surface.
4) Once we have the ability to produce cast iron on Mars, creating pressurised living space will be a simple matter of heaping loose soil and rubble over a repeating cross-braced cast iron frame.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 06:22:10)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I think that a lot can be done with Mars itself over time, I think that to some extent the situation will be stubborn.

Jeff Bezos, has said, actually;
https://www.siasat.com/bezos-takes-dig- … t%E2%80%9D.
Quote:

“Go live on the top of Mount Everest for a year first and see if you like it, because it’s a garden paradise compared to Mars,” Bezos was quoted as saying. Bezos said he wants to use Blue Origin to help move heavy industry into space and “protect this planet”.

I consider that to be a good caution. But of course Mars is much more than Mt. Everest.

Also, where he would think to have synthetic gravity worlds for the Earth/Moon....(I am not opposed), then very easily the same for Mars/Phobos/Deimos, in my opinion.

In fact, in some ways not having extremely hot and extremely cold in orbit might be an advantage.

So, major problems for inhabiting the orbits of Mars, are remoteness from human infrastructure, radiation, micro-gravity, but not heat. A concentrating mirror(s), can easily compensate for that.

Remoteness from human infrastructure may be helped by the fact that features of the sun tend to want to push things away from us towards the outer solar system, (Mars). Photons do and so does the solar wind.

I see water jackets as both a way to deal with radiation and to perhaps do some agricultural activities in orbit.
A double shell of water, with a vacuum inside with a human habitat(s), both microgravity and synthetic gravity, should work out OK.

For the Water, get your Hydrogen from Deimos, Phobos, or Mars. Get your Oxygen perhaps from the two moons?

Synthetic Gravity machines already mentioned, then solve that problem.

As for energy, the sun does shine, and very predictably. Concentrating mirrors would help.

As for the surface of Mars? Sure do what you can.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-06 11:31:06)

Void · 2022-06-07 09:13:02

LOOP or DITCH FARMING on MARS: (Some of this will be redundant to prior materials, but today I believe I have more to offer).

Perhaps this could help:

The "Ditch" does not have to be a circle, but a circle may well do.

The "Ditch" may or may not have a water liner to help retain the brine.

The internal pressure of air will be minimal, to the various purposes.

In this case, the intention would possibly be to allow the growth of photosynthesizing organisms in the ditch, but that is not all it is for.

So, although this brine can be of a high salt content, it must not be so high that microbes cannot grow. In a similar fashion, the temperature of the brine can be cold but not so cold as to prohibit microbe growth.

Martian air would be fed into the air pocket, and pressurized just enough to regulate boiling of the brine.

There would be heliostats around this thing to push more photons into the growth zone. Also there would be a source of electrical power to allow the running of a compressor to both feed Martian air in, and to pull water vapor, Oxygen, and remnant gasses out. (Nitrogen, Argon).

We may add plastic pipe loops into the brine on the bottom to be radiators of heat from a heat fluid. This then may be part of the running of a heat engine.

The fluid might be Ammonia, or an Ammonia-Water mix.

In this case we might dispose of grey and perhaps even sewage water into the ditch.

While the sun was shining, a pumping process run by electricity would suck output out from the loop, and compress it into condensed water, and a desired Oxygen/Nitrogen/Argon mix. The forced condensation fresh water may be passed through a high temperature hot water generating process, likely composed of heliostats, and a receiver.

Then the hot water can be stored in water tanks. This then would have heat exchangers for the Ammonia, in it as well. So, you could boil the Ammonia or Ammonia-water mix, run it though a turbine, most likely at night, and generate electric power.

It may even be possible that hot water would be stored into an aquifer, for use during global dust storms or winters.

The stored hot water then run through the Ammonia heating process, may be suitable to use for washing or if further treated for drinking.

The Algae Matts could be harvested by "A robot Canoe". This materials is likely not to be suitable for human injection.
But you could grow mushrooms in it and also put it into an Aerobic Digester to generate Methane, or you may cook in in a pyrolysis process, perhaps generating various types of Hydrocarbons.

Keep in mind that this "System" is solar in several ways, and may also include nuclear and batteries.

The outputs can be:
1) Organic Matter that you can store long term in frigid caves underground or even in frigid buildings above ground.
2) A possible Oxygen/Nitrogen/Argon mix.
3) Hot distilled water.
4) Electric power by several means.
5) Graduations of brine, which is also an energy storage and retrieval method.

The Organic Matter can result in Mushrooms, Methane, and other Hydrocarbons.

Issues with Radiation I have some notion that this method does provide some help for organisms as brine should block radiation to some extent at least from the Hydrogen content.

Query: "How much water is needed to protect from GCR"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+much+ … 504d017780

Specific: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … hielding-i

Quote:

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1336
Three meters of shielding is required for each square meter of surface. This is a Stack of 3, 1 meter cubes. A cubic meter of water weighs/has a mass of 1 metric tonne (very close to 1 ton).

But we know that the Martian atmosphere does add some protection, and so the needed brine column may not be that deep.
We can guestimate.

A thing about plants and some microbes is that they may survive radiation better than humans, by several possible means. Our intention here would be to foster growth, and minimize damage to the organisms.

Microbial Matts in the ditch, will have some additional radiation protection, pressurization by water column to reduce boiling in sunshine, and also the temporary warmth of the directed sunshine.

----

But now we might consider to dream another layer down.

A pause for coffee though.......

The secondary bag for the Hydrilla, may be of a "Bubble Wrap" nature so that it can heat up faster in the light.

It can be understood that heat is going to be dumped into the canal from the Ammonia loop.
Also, if you wanted to you may push heated fresh water through the Hydrilla bag.

Query: "Plastic tolerance to salts"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Plastic+t … 0b0611b0d6

Query: "Plastic tolerance to salts, how well do metals, Plastics stand up to brine?"
Response: https://www.corzan.com/blog/how-well-do … r-seawater
Quote: "HOW WELL DO METALS AND PLASTICS STAND UP TO SALTS, BRINE OR SEAWATER?
PIPING SYSTEMS | SEMICONDUCTOR | WATER AND WASTEWATER TREATMENT"
Quote: "How Well Do Metals and Plastics Stand Up to Salts, Brine or
https://www.corzan.com/blog/how-well-do-metals-and...
Conversely, plastics are inert to salts, which means floating ions pass right over the material without any negative effects. All plastics are inherently resistant to all salts. However, CPVC’s ability to work at higher temperatures than cheaper plastics, such as PVC, presents an area of distinction. Put simply, for applications dealing with salt…"

It is my notion that if you put selected rocks and soils into the Hydrilla bags, then the distilled water may become more suitable for drinking, as it may pull chemicals from the rocks. Of course, we don't want toxins.

Robert had done some posting about farming vascular plants at low pressures. He sort of had the same things to say. There are limits on standard crops.

Query: "Low Pressure greenhouses on Mars"

Response: "https://www.bing.com/search?q=Low+Press … 44af039bd9"

Specific Response: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20050182970
Quote:

Low Pressure Greenhouse Concepts for Mars
A project was initiated to begin testing some environmental limits for managing plant growth systems. These limits will help determine some of the concepts for building plant enclosures for use on Mars. In particular, this study focuses on the effects of reduced atmospheric pressures. Structural design is considered as it relates to the biological processes that would occur within that structure. The design must be closely tied to the functionality of the biological system and has a few primary concerns that need to be tested to resolve the question as to the path of the design. Early tests indicate that plants can survive and grow at low (greater than 76 mb) pressure.
Document ID
20050182970
Document Type
Conference Paper
Authors
Fowler, Philip A.
(Dynamac Corp. Cocoa Beach, FL, United States)
Wheeler, Raymond M.
(NASA Kennedy Space Center Cocoa Beach, FL, United States)
Bucklin, Ray A.
(Florida Univ. Gainesville, FL, United States)
Corey, Kenneth A.
(Massachusetts Univ. Amherst, MA, United States)
Date Acquired
September 7, 2013
Publication Date
August 1, 2000
Publication Information
Publication: Mars Greenhouses: Concepts and Challenges. Proceedings from a 1999 Workshop
Subject Category
Lunar and Planetary Science and Exploration
Distribution Limits
Public
Copyright
Work of the US Gov. Public Use Permitted.

So, they say > 76 mb.

But these are above water vascular plants. It is unknown if we could dip lower for Hydrilla. It might be possible as the plants are surrounded by water. They may not have to give up water to get their CO2.

Having a look at Hydrilla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

As Medicine or Food: Quote: "Medicinal uses of Hydrilla
Hydrilla is known to have many digestive and health benefits. The plant contains vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants, as well as being useful for fighting indigestion. The plant is also known for its extremely high concentration of calcium, vitamin B-12, iron and magnesium. As such, the plant has become an extremely popular "superfood"[22]"

The "B-12" is very important.

Query: "Hydrilla, temperature tolerances"

Response: https://extension.psu.edu/focus-on-aqua … 20Hydrilla.

Quote: "68-81°F
It tolerates a wide range of pH, nutrient, and light levels. Hydrilla is somewhat winter-hardy; however, the optimum temperature for growth is 68-81°F. Physical, chemical, and biological methods have been used to control Hydrilla." I believe that that is ~20-27 degC.

Keep in mind that Heliostats will be used to enhance photon concentrations and temperatures. Boiling of the outer water is not a bad thing as it will generate distilled water.

Prior calculations I did: Approximations of course:
20 degC > 17.5 torr > 23.33 mb
27 degC > 26.7 torr > 35.6 mb

So, for fresh water the depth would need to be about 3.5 feet to give a pressure of 35.6 mb. But the Martian ambient is about 9 mb in the rift valley, so then 35.6 - 9 = 26.6 mb from water column so ~2.6 feet of fresh water. But it is not fresh water but brine on top of the Hydrilla bag, so ~~~Perhaps a 20% reduction? .8 * 2.6 = ~2.08 feet.

And then you might pressurize the air above the bine a bit, so perhaps 1 to 2 feet of water column pressurization. You might want more for radiation protection anyway.

But this does leave unknown what the lowest pressure the Hydrilla can tolerate, so I am going to suggest, possibly down to 35.6 mb but also perhaps needing more than 76 mb.

A rough calculation/estimate to achieve 76 mb would be 76-9 = 67 mb, but if the pressurization agent is brine, then perhaps .8 * 67 = 53.6 mb. This then suggests .8 * ~5.5 feet of water but you may pressurize the tube a bit with Martian air above the brine, so it may be less than 5.5 feet.

Unlike the case where you might grow microbes, the brine water may be caused to have good clarity, so the sunshine from the Heliostats should get through well enough for plant growth, robust.

It might be possible to grow other aquatic plants in this system, and it may also be possible to have terrariums filled with air to grow other land crops.

However, the main aim would be to grow a bulk of Hydrilla, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-07 11:05:48)

Void · 2022-06-08 06:59:43

I believe I will pillage this topic here later today: "Index» Human missions» Martian air breathing engine"

OK, I will just leave the materials there as reference.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7156 Post #19 in particular, but also #16.

-------

I have been considering Terraforming, Para-terraforming, Callibans council, and the naysayers about what can be done with Mars.

I think I was wrong about how much Phobos could add to the Martian atmosphere. It could help, but not in an enormous way.

Calliban has suggested that we have a choice. We can struggle to inflate the Martian atmosphere or not.
If it is inflated then much better radiation protection, if not then Mass Drivers will work better, or at all.

It is possible that we might have both, inflate the atmosphere, and then still be able to use mass drivers from the Mountain peaks.
Also tether technology may be able to lift mass to orbit. Even Dr. Zubrin has suggested this for Mars.

I am thinking that for the first part of the occupation of Mars, "Down Mass" will be very important, until a technological/Industrial process is bootstrapped into action.

But after that we should most then be interested in "UP Mass". Play Mars for what it is likely good for. A mining planet, which still has a somewhat protective and useful atmosphere.

In this scheme then Phobos and Deimos figure in and perhaps the asteroids as well, as these reduce the amount of "Up Mass" required to have orbital structures.

So, rather than worrying about turning Mars into another Earth, we should seek a comfort zone of an atmosphere which is 1 to 2 times as extensive as it is now. Either option or in between are possible, it seems.

I am very satisfied with a set of methods greatly using Heliostats, both on the surface and in orbit.

I like Sandstone well lighted cave gardens, and I like "LOOP or DITCH FARMING on MARS". It may be that people like Calliban will find a way(s) to create things like Cast Iron for structures.

So, then this mining planet would be well supported by ground and orbital infrastructure to facilitate the creation of orbital habitats which should be possible to be quite worthwhile.

Loop or Ditch or Canal farming may be quite useful, as these could be used to collect photons from Heliostats. Another trick would be to heat a mix of Martian Atmosphere and water to superheat, and then in some cases put the output into the canals. This then would support a chemically driven biomass generation. Such biomass then decomposed by various methods may create useful materials like Hydrocarbons.

Query: "Superheating a mixture of CO2 and H20"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Superheat … b5ca64b8a5

Specific Response: https://phys.org/news/2017-11-technique … y-h2o.html
Quote:

Technique uses solar thermal energy to split H2O and CO2 for jet fuel

Picture Quote: https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/20 … chersd.jpg

So, possibly photons and chemicals would be fed into these canals.

The Martian atmosphere often develops a high relative humidity 70%-100% RH% in the late nights.

https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/20 … chersd.jpg
Quote:

80 to 100 percent
According to Rummel, the humidity of Mars is tied to temperature fluctuations. At night, relative humidity levels can rise to 80 to 100 percent, with the air sometimes reaching atmospheric saturation. The daytime air is far drier, due to warmer temperatures.
Is Mars Humid Enough to Support Life? | Space

So, if these covered canals had brine in them, and you compressed outside Martian air into the cold brine, then it may be that water vapor will be absorbed into the brine. Also as a source of chemicals, the O2, and CO though tiny in quantity, would assist in creating a biomass.

It is hard to get accurate and to the point definitions of what the productive limits of microbes are, but one ecology which could resemble the harsher version of these canals would be Arctic Sea ice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_algae

So, these canals do not all have to be the same. Some ice covered versions may collect water. You could either pump compressed martian air into the covering shroud, or could bubble in in cold brine to capture the moisture into the brine.

But water from aquifers, or from transported sources (Canals in "Doner" ice), are other options.

The thing about it is for most relatively level areas of Mars, it should be possible to build a network of such canals, and use them as collectors of photons donated to them by Heliostats.

Likely to be very productive.

Done

In the question of how to start out with Mars Orbital Habitats: https://www.geekwire.com/2019/safest-be … on-deimos/
Quote:

The safest bet for space settlers? Would you believe it’s inside Mars’ moon Deimos?

The tendency in such discussions is to go ape-binary as if it were some sports game.

In reality if humans go to Mars with Spacecraft, there is no reason they should then become "Land-Lubbers".

There can be up and down mass, and as you already should know I am in favor of developing Mars itself, as well as it's orbits.

An argument of Moon vs. Mars, is that you can use the atmosphere to braking and go "Mars Direct". True enough, but to get to Martian orbit I believe there is much more flexibility to brake to orbit.

So, in many ways Earth/Moon>Mars Orbit is more reachable than Earth/Moon>Mars. Granted, it is possible that refueling is to be on the surface of Mars, but that is not certain. You might get what you want from the Moons eventually, depending what their compositions are.

And clearly orbital mirrors could be very useful to the efforts both on the surface and in orbit(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-08 08:10:02)

Void · 2022-06-08 12:21:11

I did not put a lot of effort into this as I did not want to include lots of confusing features.

It is somewhat redundant to prior materials.

An enclosure with water bagged walls. The bags might support some aquiculture. But they are primarily for radiation protection.

They also might temporarily seal an air leak though the walls.

Of course, you have to include means to reject heat which could be involved in a heat engine.

In space it apparently is a money maker to have microgravity.

The size of the box is not defined, and it is possible to connect many of them together.

As for synthetic gravity, it is my opinion that for very low synthetic gravity you only need a rotor.

For higher synthetic gravity you need a vacuum chamber inside or the sun box, with a rotor inside of the vacuum chamber.

A major problem will be to keep the moving equipment inside the sunbox, from destroying the null gravity situation with vibrations.

It may be possible to have a relatively free floating box hot hard coupled to the chassis, where manufacturing can occur with relatively good microgravity.

I anticipate that plastics and Hydrogen might be wanted from Mars itself, and hopefully other raw materials from Phobos, Deimos, maybe Mars, and maybe asteroids. The Hydrogen would be important to make water for the water bags.

I guess I did not specify what kind of agriculture. I have Hydrilla in mind once again.

I am inclined to think that the wet inner surfaces of the water bags, will become inhabited by microbes/algae, which would block light.
I am under the impression that most or all fish do not do well in microgravity. But I am hoping that some sort of fish that eats algae attached to a bag wall, might be able to orient itself well enough by referencing that surface. Don't know.

Query: "algae eater fish"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=algae%20e … DC4654B3A7

So, that a maybe.

So that might keep things clean enough for Hydrilla to get light.

But how to separate produced Oxygen bubbles since it is microgravity? https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Hy … M%3DHDRSC3

Also, how to get the Hydrilla and maybe fish out of the bags without leaking water all over the place.

Also if you do have a leak how to you clean that up in microgravity?

This I suppose is a sort of reference to calculate how much water you would need: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … to%20space.

Or, if you care: Query: "How much water is needed to protect from space radiation?"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+much+ … c868eeef6f

But in any case, for some parts of the habitat materials from Phobos and Deimos could augment protection. You would use what seemed prudent.

Perhaps you would have strong protection only where humans are likely to hang out most of the time. And of course you would want some sort of solar activity monitoring.

Some plastic bags would not have hydrilla in them should you want more light to enter the box.

But this is all just total speculation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-08 12:52:07)

Void · 2022-06-09 09:53:58

I am in a bit of a mood these last few days. However, while listening to a video by a space author, I was stimulated to think of something that I have not yet heard mention of.

First of all, I understand and to a point agree with Dr. Zubrin that artificial worlds require a very large amount of work to create relative to a world like Mars itself. However, if the human race or part of it choose to keep expanding robotics/AI/automation, the space environment provides the energy and materials. So, I do agree that Mars has a big place in the introduction of this.

I don't like a Dyson swarm as I would fear a massive Kessler Syndrome event. Also, at this time it is not apparent how enough people would be born to populate such as that. Human thinking may change if the living standards improve and if robots can help in raising human children. But who knows?

When do you have enough people? Some people such as Mr. Bezos say that the more population, the more people who have a high function and can provide new patterns for mimic people to copy. That may have merit. However, if your whole life was to go to an amusement park, would it benefit you to be able to experience the whole thing in one second? If that could be accomplished, then that is perhaps sort of blending all of your food and squirting it into your digestive tract at light speed.

So, like a fire, is there a preferred rate of combustion?

And of course I will not be here in a few decades most odds suggest, so it does become "Not my problem", unless I want to adopt it for my problem.

So, if I should choose to care, then there can be an estimate of reasonable convenient scale.

I think a Dyson Sphere exceeds that and invites an eventual collapse of a house of cards. That is my opinion at this time, of course.

---------

What I will suggest is solar power, (Not as a law), and Trojan zones for mega-structures.

Any planet might possibly have two of these each. Not all sub-system(worlds) would supply the entire spectrum of matter sufficiently to their trojan locations. But ones on the inside of another planets trojans, might donate to those Niece and Nephew trojans.

For Jupiter, I think the lighting from the sun is ~~~About 3%, for Saturn ~~~>1% with Earth lighting as reference.

So, I am thinking of "Sun Boxes" or a suitable alternative to be placed in these trojan locations, and for suitable linking concentrating mirrors to be provided to possibly provide an entire collection of mirrors and sun boxes.

I am not sure if it could be accomplished but it might be nice if the entire or large part of the Trojan zones would be occupied by a single network of such linking mirrors.

I have a fair amount of unsure thinking about this. But it would be very interesting if cars, trains, ect. could travel upon these mirrors to any location on them. The Sun Boxes might have nested spin gravity habitats in them or if desired spin habitats could be outside of them.

While many people will scoff at the notion of solar power at Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, at this time I choose to leave options open. The mirrors would be both solar collectors and joining members.

Could this be done for the inner planets? Maybe.

I might prefer these Trojan structures to have a massive magnetic field, perhaps blocking some radiation, and perhaps holding leaked gasses to the location by some recovery method.

I have concerns of the inertia of photons and the solar wind on such a massive structure. I can sort of guess how to keep the mega-structure in place in it's Orbital Pocket.

This could create a massive GDP(s), that might afford to send out interstellar missions.

That is hoped, not proven.

Of course, I have in mind to use the inertia and solar wind to move mined materials from the planets to the trojan locations.
I suspect it may not be beyond a practical method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-09 10:24:28)

Void · 2022-06-09 10:17:07

I am still listening to a video from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Arthur

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … EBA296CFDC
Quote:

The Megastructure Compendium
YouTube · 4,000+ views · 3 hr ago · by Isaac Arthur

I think this is the identical thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ompendium/
Quote:

Posted by
u/IsaacArthur
The Man Himself4 hours ago
The Megastructure Compendium
youtu.be/1xt13d...

Some viewers will cringe about some of the notions, but it is probably good to stimulate the minds of the young. It might cause the emergence of more practical notions.

Of course I am an OLD guy, so I have some trouble with some of it, but it is at lease entertainment and some of it fits in well with things I can currently accept.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-09 10:22:34)

Void · 2022-06-09 10:38:35

So, about trojan zone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(celestial_body)
Quote:

Trojan (celestial body)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The trojan points are located on the L4 and L5 Lagrange points, on the orbital path of the secondary object (blue), around the primary object (yellow). All of the Lagrange points are highlighted in red.
In astronomy, a trojan is a small celestial body (mostly asteroids) that shares the orbit of a larger one, remaining in a stable orbit approximately 60° ahead of or behind the main body near one of its Lagrangian points L4 and L5. Trojans can share the orbits of planets or of large moons.
Trojans are one type of co-orbital object. In this arrangement, a star and a planet orbit about their common barycenter, which is close to the center of the star because it is usually much more massive than the orbiting planet. In turn, a much smaller mass than both the star and the planet, located at one of the Lagrangian points of the star–planet system, is subject to a combined gravitational force that acts through this barycenter. Hence the smallest object orbits around the barycenter with the same orbital period as the planet, and the arrangement can remain stable over time.[1]
In the Solar System, most known trojans share the orbit of Jupiter. They are divided into the Greek camp at L4 (ahead of Jupiter) and the Trojan camp at L5 (trailing Jupiter). More than a million Jupiter trojans larger than one kilometer are thought to exist,[2] of which more than 7,000 are currently catalogued. In other planetary orbits only nine Mars trojans, 28 Neptune trojans, two Uranus trojans, and two Earth trojans, have been found to date. A temporary Venus trojan is also known. Numerical orbital dynamics stability simulations indicate that Saturn and Uranus probably do not have any primordial trojans.[3]

Obviously the Jupiter Trojans really look like the place to start with this, if it is possible.

I would welcome member comments.

Done

Void · 2022-06-09 11:09:00

So then a little more. Isaac Arthur towards the end of the video did suggest a ring around Earth's orbit, which is close to:

"TROJAN PLATFRORM" uh..... "TROJAN MEGA PLATFORMS!".

And that's fine. I am now thinking Mass Drivers for such huge planar platforms, if the platforms can indeed be of a large scale.

And then I was thinking why not "MEGA CYCLING SPACESHIPS" with mass drivers.

Then why not toss stuff from platform to platform. The tossed stuff could include a "MEGA SPACESHIP PLATFORM".

Any of these might use the inertia of photons, and the solar wind, and the stuff they toss as propellants to either change locations or maintain a location.

So, while I have seen notions of how to tack into the solar wind or photons, in this case, a method to pass mass inward in the solar system.

Also methods to aero burn into planetary orbits might be utilized as well.

So, I am kind of liking this.

In a sense, a platform of concentrating mirrors can be a solar sail as well, depending how you use it. And also the foundations for a mass driver of such a length that the accelerations are not massively high g. Lots of housing and agriculture as well.

And of course Mars and the Moon are places we might start this up.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-09 11:30:08)

Void · 2022-06-09 11:32:04

So, then I think it likely that some or all of this has been thought of before, but it appears that within limits it might be possible to use planets as propellant mass.

The Sun/Planet "L" locations in some cases tend to try to keep objects in place, so that they can then be linked by gravity to the host planet, (And the Sun).

And then you have inertia of the platform and could also launch an outward-bound load in relatively close timing with an inner bound load and cancel the effects out to a large extent.

And then of course you have the solar wind and the Photon forces.

Some parts of the scarry part of cycling spaceships, where you might go off course, is the ship/platforms would be so large as to have full renewable life support and could eventually drag themselves back on course using the solar wind and/or Photons.

You might want some quick reaction propulsion in reserve, in case of the possibility of near passes or collisions.

I don't know, it kind of looks like a future to consider trying for.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-09 11:36:27)

Void · 2022-06-10 05:21:46

OK, I am looking at this post especially as a potential for learning, and innovation. If someone feels compelled to "Put me down with superior knowledge, then please do so as an instructor".

I am looking at Lagrange point, and L4 & L5 in particular for the Earth/Moon subsystem. I think I have found some reference materials I like for that.

https://pwg.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Slagrng2.htm
Quote:

(34b) The L4 and L5 Lagrangian Points

Quote:

However, the Earth-Moon system also has its L4 and L5 points, and these have received some attention as possible sites for observatories and for self contained "space colonies."
They have an important property (which will not be proved) that they are stable. In contrast, equilibrium at the L1 and L2 points is unstable, like that of a marble perched atop a bowling ball.

Quote:

If positioned exactly on the top, the marble will stay in place, but the slightest push will make it move further and still further from equilibrium, until it falls off. By contrast, the equilibrium at L4 or L5 are like that of a marble at the bottom of a spherical bowl: given a slight push, it rolls back again. Thus the spacecraft at L4 or L5 do not tend to wander off, unlike those at L1 and L2 which require small onboard rockets to nudge them back into place from time to time.
Here we will show that L4 and L5 of the Earth-Moon system are positions of equilibrium in a frame of reference rotating with the Moon, assuming that the Moon's orbit is circular. Non-circular orbits and the question of stability are beyond the scope of this discussion.

So L4 and 5 are in Pockets that tend to hold them in place, so there may be a bit of free station keeping. If I understand, if you put a mass into these, you could push off of it a bit to send another object out of the pocket to a non-Lagrange orbit.

So, if you went and got a small NEO to put there and attached your constructed "Station" to it, then within reason, you could push off of a bigger mass and the "Pocket Mass" would retain and recenter, provided you did not cause it to slip out of the pocket.

Mass could come from other objects such as the Earth and Moon as well.

But the pocket has boundaries, so if your "Kick" with a mass driver, was so large that it could push the mass out of the pocket, you would have time to do a counter-kick before you violated the boundry of the pocket.

And then there are the two other "In situ" propulsion resources, "The Solar Wind" , and "Photon Flux Inertia".

So, those both come in from the Ecliptic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic

But, they do not come in from one direction relative to L4 and L5, but like a wind come from a direction all around sequentially.

So, even without "Tacking to the wind", you can get a push that might help the mass station or null station stay generally in place.

And some of the propulsion devices can do "Tacking to the wind".

It is also possible that fluids obtained from worlds could be used in thrust methods as well.

These null stations could have very big power plants, probably solar, as it is suitable.

Power could be stored in spinning objects, flywheels, that also might be for agriculture, Manufacuring, and habitation. These may be nested so that there would be singular null masses of collections that might be used as a fulcrum base for mass drivers.

Then if the energy is stored in spin, then of course you need generators that can extract that spin to electricity to launch a mass driver events.

So, if you have mass to "Export" you can export "UP" and "DOWN" to counterbalance to keep the null station, and in the case of "DOWN",
a path to the atmosphere of Earth may be available, for course corrections to the surface or orbit.

The three most likely sources of "Import Mass" would be Earth, Moon, and NEO's.

Where historically the calculation was that it does not make sense to import the whole NEO, I wonder if that thinking can change, as Iron and Silicon extracted and then joined to Null Stations, then becomes re-usable propulsion mass in the Null Station(s), and will also serve other purposes such as shielding, and power generation, flywheels, and other functions.

But maybe it still makes sense to get stuff from the Moon. Others have had many suggestions for that, and so I can "Contract" that out to those previous notions or perhaps if some other notions would occur.

So, presumably a lot of "UP" mass might go to Mars, and might be converted to resources at the L4 or L5 or along the way, and then I suppose finished in or at the vicinity of Mars.

Of course exports to other places such as the L4 & L5 of the Sun-Jupiter trojan asteroids.

And those might hold things that we might want, and perhaps some of that could be send down towards the Earth-Moon L4 & L5.

If anyone might want to better educate me please do.

-----

I suppose the use of tethers would also be a form of Mass Driver as well in a lot of cases.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-10 06:01:22)

Void · 2022-06-10 06:47:17

So, to me the Trojans of Jupiter really look interesting, and of course the main belt in places as well.

https://www.thoughtco.com/trojan-astero … eroids.%20
The Trojans of various worlds should have various substances.
Quote:

Most interesting though is the presence of Neptunian Trojan asteroids. While there around a dozen confirmed, there are many more candidates. If confirmed, they would significantly outnumber the combined asteroid count of the Asteroid Belt and Jupiter Trojans. This is a very good reason for continuing to study this distant region of the solar system.

I am thinking that this could be a place where you might get special materials like Nitrogen. Some day a long time off.

And this again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(celestial_body)
Quote:

Astronomers estimate that the Jovian trojans are about as numerous as the asteroids of the asteroid belt.[6]

But I think they do not tend to be as big as the ones in the main belt.

Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inne … tem-en.png

So that seems like a good amount of mass: https://www.eclipseaviation.com/how-man … asteroids/
Quote:

How Many Trojan Asteroids?
Jupiter Trojan asteroids found in the past decade have been found in roughly two-thirds of the L4 and L5 asteroid basins. Approximately 1,800–2,200 of Jupiter’s Trojan populations have diameters greater than 15 km (10 miles), …

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-06-10 06:55:18)

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