Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-05-16 11:31:43

Continuing from post #248.

For the moment about trees, sort of. Bamboo is a grass, I take it.

While I see bamboo as for structures and wood pulp, then there might be fruit trees:

The following will only suggest possibility, it will not confirm that these things can be done.
Query: "Winter tolerant fruit trees"

https://greenupside.com/cold-hardy-frui … rate-cold/

https://earthdevelopmentinc.com/blog/fr … d-climates

Well, you can look all that you want, with the above query and your own formulated queries.

I think some of the questions are tolerance for duration of cold, and needed duration and character of "Summer".

A question of interest for me is could say an apple tree survive a longer than normal winter? Longer than can be expected anywhere on Earth?

There is no particular reason you could not grow other crops inside of insulated ice chambers with artificial lights. In that case where you are not trying to work with perennial plants but rather annuals, you might leave the chamber as cold and for as long as you might like.

So, for annual crops you could have multiple chambers, perhaps only 1 out of 4??? active warm at a time.

But where you might grow crops under sunlight by other containment means such as lakes, and plastic bubbles/girdles of chevron mirrors, then I would think that would be looked at strongly. Particularly if you have extra sunlight deliveries from orbital mirrors to your location.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-16 11:43:49)

Void · 2022-05-17 12:35:15

Chemical Energies of Mars: A member could start a topic on this if they liked elsewhere of course.

1) Perchlorates
2) Methane Seeps
3) Serpentinization by Solar perhaps, of Martian Dune Materials to create >Clay>Hydrogen>Methane>Oils?

------

1) Perchlorates:

Electrolysis of brines of: https://thephysicsfootprint.com/2022/02 … oss%20Mars.
Quote:

As explained when evaluating the MOXIE, it requires vast amounts of energy to produce oxygen, making it a highly inefficient system. Whereas, this study demonstrated how brine electrolysis is theoretically 25 times as efficient as the MOXIE. That is, it can produce up to 25 times the amount of oxygen for the same input power. This increase in efficiency would be invaluable on a self-sufficient Mars colony, because almost every aspect of living will require electricity. The extra energy saved by not using the MOXIE could be distributed to these other processes, improving the feasibility of self-sufficiency.

So, if you want an on demand use of Oxygen, perhaps you could use a stored source of electricity to get that from the process. Or you might generate Oxygen to store by some means, when the electricity was produced.

This is also of interest, however, I don't know how well Martian chemicals can be adapted to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator
Quote:

Chemical oxygen generator
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
A chemical oxygen generator is a device that releases oxygen via a chemical reaction. The oxygen source is usually an inorganic superoxide,[1] chlorate, or perchlorate; ozonides are a promising group of oxygen sources. The generators are usually ignited by a firing pin, and the chemical reaction is usually exothermic, making the generator a potential fire hazard. Potassium superoxide was used as an oxygen source on early manned missions of the Soviet space program, in submarines for use in emergency situations, for firefighters, and for mine rescue.

And then there has been some speculation for Rocket Propellants from Martian Perchlorates.

------

Methane Seeps on Mars:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … ne-mystery

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=me … RE&first=1

https://eos.org/editors-vox/the-mystery … s-thickens

Hydrogen in the Martian Core: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 0reservoir.

https://www.essoar.org/doi/pdf/10.1002/ … 10501266.1

Short and sweet, "I don't know". Time might tell. Is Hydrogen seeping from below up to help make Methane. I don't know.

However Methane might form inside the crust of Mars, permafrost may tend to retain it, and so drilling might release it.

Quantity? "I don't know".

------

3) Serpentinization by Solar perhaps, of Martian Dune Materials to create >Clay>Hydrogen>Methane>Oils?

OK, if you want to substitute in some Nuclear Fission instead of Solar. Nothing to get shorts in a twist about.

I have collected this progression of materials which you may read. Then I will discuss it more:

CLAY:
https://www.brown.edu/news/2017-12-06/marsclay
Serpentinization and the Formation of H2 and CH4 on Celestial Bodies (Planets, Moons, Comets):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4523005/
Dunes, Olivine, Pyroxine:
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7142/colorful-dunes/
Cerberus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_(Mars)
Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ce … HoverTitle
Dunes:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ce … HoverTitle

Shortcut continuation: Shoot superheated steam up though a suspended powder of dune materials. Get Hydrogen, Hydrocarbons, and Clay. That is wishing. We might see though perhaps yes.

A little pause, and then more detailed commenting.

Pause..........

OK, the reason why not Nuclear, is that Nuclear's value is to be there when solar and stored energy is not available. So, why waste it on this process, unless you have an insane abundance of it. Hopefully the Nuclear cuddle people will be comfortable with that.

For Solar, this would most likely be solar thermal with the creation of superheated steam using concentrating mirrors.

Absent a dust storm, it is likely fairly clockwork, as to what time window of solar power you would have in a day. So the process would possibly start up in the morning, run a few hours, and then shut down. I guess you could store some super heat to keep it going into the night time. Not sure.

For now, I am imagining a very dry steam process, that avoids the gumming up of things with produced wet clay materials. I am hoping that somehow the particles can be processed, and yet remain particles of clay in the end.

Cerberus is a possible source of eroded dune materials, so it might be possible to also mine what is still at that location.

Anyway, any thoughts from the other members?

Thanks

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-17 13:19:17)

Void · 2022-05-18 09:47:50

Well, I guess I will just work on stuff some more.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … rocks.html

Query: "Metalysis"

https://metalysis.com/

I need to study their materials more. My impression has been that the original process can involve Carbon, where to make it work for the Moon that version does not involve Carbon. But I am ready to be corrected.

If you are wondering, I am thinking in terms or orbital activity for Mars, but of course that is not a rule, just a possible practice.

Since the moons of Mars are thought to contain Carbon, and of course Mars does, there is no particular reason to not use the original process.

Pause.....

OK, I have looked it over a bit. I am not sure I understand the limits of it's capabilities, but in using a version of it, that does not prohibit the use of other possible useful materials handling methods.

Other methods to pull Oxygen from rock might also exist, that would be more primitive, and perhaps give different and possibly lesser results.

For instance Carbon and/or Hydrogen could be use in conjunction with concentrated solar heat to extract some Oxygen. That then would produce CO2, CO, H20 as likely products, along with reduction of the original materials.

In truth that is what I originally had in mind. It just seems that Metalysis would be a good bet to try to include.

In the case of the production of Water, of course it is obvious the things that could be done.

In the case of CO2, electrolysis could be employed, but I am inclined to try to seek very large orbital greenhouses in order to process the gas.

There was an original temptation by me to go to a strange process of a humidified, greenhouse where electrostatic force allowed the formation of a liquid water film on the glaze interior. Not sure it can work, and several issues would make productivity questionalble.

But the membership of old introduced me to Bamboo, so I guess I will think in terms of what Bamboo and Humans may need and want from an orbital greenhouse(s).

So such a greenhouse(s) requires a pressure envelope of some kind.

I have this illustration of a possible window for such a microgravity orbital greenhouse:

I like the idea of growing bamboo, and other things in microgravity. Our taxes paid (Many nations), for the ISS research that indicates that it is possible for some plants. I hope it is possible for Bamboo.

One of the advantage over orbital is the thin atmosphere of Mars, but with Chevrons for the windows, that advantage is tipped more in favor of orbital.

If the Chevron structure does not fully prevent puncture of the window(s), the plastic bag for radiation protection may, if constructed correctly help plug a leak. It would just get sucked to the hole. If "It" does not puncture, then it may be possible to have some kind of method to push some goop into the hole to plug it until a full refurbishment of the greenhouse would be scheduled.

If the radiation protection bag(s) contain water, then that needs to be kept sterile so that microbes do not cloud it.

I have gone in the direction of microgravity, as I want to get what is needed, with the least amount of necessary structure.

I recall from Robert, that it may be needed to have fans blow air on the plants to get them to grow correctly. That could be done if needed.

Another factor is air pressure. It might be possible to go down as low as 70 mBar, but I think that 1/3 Bar would be the desire.

This greenhouse(s) could be connected to habitation with greater pressures, and also including synthetic gravity machines.

So if this is done at large scale, then lots of Oxygen.

I think propulsive systems that eject Oxygen are desired. If ejected, it is not necessarily true that the Oxygen molecules would be lost to the Martian Hill Sphere. Particularly if a Magnetic field is imposed on Mars. So then, this would tend to build the Martian atmosphere up with Oxygen in total amount of molecules, while providing propulsion mass.

And of course an orbital agricultural and manufacturing ability will allow for the existence of other terraform methods such as orbital mirrors.

That's plenty for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-18 10:52:28)

Void · 2022-05-18 17:52:01

Hard to say if my psychology will be normal, (For Me), at this time. Got a cold or the crud. I'v got the crud/Covid test which I should take soon. I have been sick with Covid the original, and have had 2 vax, and 1 booster. So it could be either a cold or asymptomatic.

But that is not really what I want discuss, I just wanted to inform that I may think different on another day.

I really do think that we should remain open to both surface and orbital development of Mars. What I have called Far and Near Mars.

We can make investment decisions based on needs of the times, and ease of progress for each and both.

Taking a pause......

I have spoken of how I was a convert to Bamboo, I can see the value of it's potential uses.

I am very interested in tethers and skyhooks for Mars, and other people have shown interest as well.
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985c … d%20Deimos.

I think I recall Dr. Zubrin mention something on that order. This may not be a complete hit, but it is starting to get close: https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/376589main_04% … -30-09.pdf

Well, this is complex, might include his name: https://www.academia.edu/es/6992915/An_ … en_Cyclers

This fits for sure: https://space.nss.org/the-promise-of-ma … rt-zubrin/

Quote:

Martian colonists will be able to use rocket hoppers using locally produced propellants to lift such resources from the Martian surface to Mars’ moon Phobos, where an electromagnetic catapult can be enplaced capable of firing the cargo off to Earth for export. Alternatively, on Mars it will also be possible to build a “skyhook” consisting of a cable whose center of mass is located at a distance from which it will orbit the planet in synchrony with Mars’ daily rotation. To an observer on the Martian surface such cables will appear to stand motionless, allowing payloads to be delivered to space via cable car. Because of strength of materials limits, such systems cannot be built on Earth, but in Mars’ 3/8 gravity they may well be feasible. If so, they would give the Mars colonists the unique ability not merely to transport goods to Earth, but to access the resources present throughout the rest of the solar system. Mars will become the central base and port of call for exploration and commerce heading out to the asteroid belt, the outer solar system, and beyond.

Where that sounds good but ambitious, I have notions for somewhat lesser objectives.

I think skyhooks could soak up atmosphere from Mars to the orbital stations for processing. This could include Nitrogen and Argon, and of course CO2.

Then if you can make wood and paper, (Bamboo), can skyhooks get such products through the atmosphere? If so, can you land paper on the surface in the shape of a parachute, paper airplane, inflated paper pop bag? Then you have paper pulp from orbit.

Or, can skyhooks assist rockets into the atmosphere, where the rockets then could land bamboo and wood products?

So, although not perfected here are some notions to ponder.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-18 18:13:26)

Void · 2022-05-18 19:51:22

I am watching the other members on "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Prometheus Fuels Lower Cost Than Fossil Fuels"
Post #101
Quote:

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,294
Email
Coals not a bad starting point to grind to make use of for the source of carbon and I am sure its gotten dirt cheap.
We also know that there is no magic in the source power for reaction and electrolysis processes only the cost and output levels for the build of it.
We do know the catalysts required and operational temperatures of the reactors used to make short to long chains of fuel at a given rate.
Still in the end run the issue for some areas of the country is water to make use of for the source of hydrogen in the reaction. Of which location for building the plant near to a large sea or oceans would be suitable.

This stimulated something in my mind, but I do not want to interrupt their process as I am going to suggest turning things "Bass-Akward".

This would connect to my previous post #249:
Quote:

Earth to Void......
OK this topic allows for the Earth as a world. I see that Calliban and kbd512 and (th) are working on liquid fuels.
I would not mind working on synthetic natural gas, and food. I will give it a try. I will not be disappointed about contributions from others.
Oh! Extract CO2 from the Oceans also. Solar methods and cow gas possible.
Nothing so complex about this. A transparent bag to grow Hydrilla in. Hydrilla would mostly tolerate fresh water that will float in sea water.
Of course, I have not shown cable methods to allow the containment to be lifted towards the surface, or pulled down lower in the case of severe weather.
And a Bioreactor to decompose organic matter. Organic matter could be cow feces, or some waste typically dumped into the sea by cities, or the results of the Hydrilla themselves.
You could pull CO2 out of the Ocean water into the bag, and get nutrients from the Bioreactor.
The Bioreactor could be at a water column pressure that is most suitable and could be heated to a temperature to facilitate the production of Methane from microbes.
------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla
The Hydrilla can be made into a food supplement, solve world hunger to a point.
The invasive species does not do well in ocean salt water, otherwise it would have invaded the oceans by now anyway.
------
Environmentalists:
I once suggested plastic enclosures for desert greenhouses, and immediately I began reading about the huge dangers of plastics. Strangling
sea turtles, and "Micro-Plastics" oh my!
While there are real environmentalists, and I respect them, many of the efforts behind the hype are from people who want to control technological people with words. Their real purpose in life is to direct attention, but when they become luddites, it becomes apparent, yet again that what they really want is plantation workers so that they can live in the owners house and speak dead languages, to impress their types at parties.
I care about sea turtles as well, and in this case we do not let the big plastic bags float away without retrieving them, and they are going to be too big for sea turtles to swallow anyway.
Tell the 3rd world to quit dumping 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world plastic garbage in the Oceans.
As for Micro-Plastics, we are not going to give up the use of plastics, so they will remain a factor of life and the environment.
Microbes are evolving that will eat microplastics. I hope they do not evolve so far that they attack the plastic bags themselves.
Done.

So, I am running a parallel conversation but not an opposition conversation.

Here is what I am thinking:

It's really simple, burn what you want to burn, if you have it. At least North America has Coal, Tar Sands, Shale Oil, Shale Gas, Oil Shale, no problems, for a price we can continue to have fuels to burn.

So, then burn your stuff, conduct the CO2 into the Hydrilla Bags, also conduct the nutrients of sewage into those bags, grow Hydrilla.

What you do with the Hydrilla? Well it can be a food supplement.

As for liquid fuels for Cars, just suck more CO2 out of the Ocean water to offset it, and grow more Hydrilla.

And that should keep us for a couple of centuries. Of course we could sell stuff, fuels, those buying then would need to grow Hydrilla as well.

That is terraforming Earth.

FYI, the South Africans had a way to liquify Coal to Oil: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/08/arch … %20skyline.

Can't say what the cost level would be now.

This is terraforming for Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-18 20:06:08)

Void · 2022-05-19 10:47:04

OK, here is a piece that can be fitted into the previous post.

Hydrogen from Methane: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 171749.htm

It is typically easier to produce Hydrogen from a Hydrocarbon than from water. Generally, previously that involves the use of heat in a petrochemical distillery, where CO2 would be released to Atmosphere. But this looks promising.

This also could be very important for Mars.

I choose growing Hydrilla in aquatic environments, preferably under sunlight. For Mars or Earth this could produce Oxygen. In either case, if you exclude Nitrogen to the extent that is possible you may arrive at a very enriched Oxygen content gas. Usually that is a fire hazard, but this is an aquatic environment.

So, you can see, then you have produced an Oxygen enriched gas, so your combustion can have much less Nitrogen, and you might reprocess CO2 obtained from various sources into the Hydrilla bags.

How Carbon is ultimately eliminated is a question. You could feed the hydrilla to some animal and create Biochar from the animal waste, and also hydrocarbons, some which may be liquids, some may be gases such as Methane. From the Methane then get Hydrogen, which you may react with the almost pure Oxygen gas mix that you might get from the Hydrilla bags.

Biochar can be dropped to the ocean floor where it is likely to stay for a long time, particularly if you drop it where river sediments might cover it.

But I also think that it is sensible to simply push CO2 into the ocean depths as a dissolved content if it is because we have a temporary crisis. This is like how you might treat a hospital patient. Some medicine is to be constant, how you maintain optimum health. Some is extraordinary where you have to make a quick change to keep the patient alive.

Yes this then will affect some lower locations of the Oceans, but the Oceans are ~70% of the Earth surface, so if you want to protect the ~30% that is land, and some ocean surface environments, then you might sacrifice some of the lower locations. It is not even certain how much dissolved CO2 can be tolerated by deep ocean ecosystems.

But, if you ultimately have a good way to stabilize the situation including possibly some of what is in this post, then you may consider the deep ocean to be a bank account that you can bend just a little bit until you have a fully grown up industrial method that is much less harmful to the environment.

-------

And although I was not looking for it, it does seem to me that the way to have an Oxygen/Hydrogen (Approximately) economy on Mars and other worlds, is to have biology included in the production of Oxygen, and Methane, and then get Hydrogen from Methane or some other bio-produced hydrocarbon, with electric power or possibly concentrated heat.

Using water as the direct source of Hydrogen seems silly.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 10:57:38)

Void · 2022-05-19 11:30:11

This continues the recent posts.

This is not the primary object of this post, I just wanted it for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate

Some times it seems like realty might be trying to speak to us, but we just don't listen.

Here it is becoming obvious to me that you can get plants to give you a relatively pure mix of gas, strongly dominated by Oxygen.

Here on Earth at 1 bar pure Oxygen can be deadly. But in bags in the water it may be more manageable.

But for places in space, lower pressures may allow to production of dilutant lean mixtures strongly dominated by Oxygen.

For Mars, it is obvious that Perchlorate is one way to store chemical energy of Oxidizers. It even appears naturally.

But also Mars being a giant freezer, then how much biological materials can be stored in ice caves/permafrost caves? Lots!

If you have a bulk of organic matter, you may put it into a bioreactor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioreacto … production.

Or when the sun shines you might use destructive distillation to produce Hydrocarbons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_distillation

Of course you might involve Nuclear Fission to produce very hot steam to run destructive distillation.

So, I guess the point then is solar greenhouses are not to be just for food. Although it makes sense that if you are going to put biomass in mass into a massive freezer process, it should be preferred that the biomass be digestible, in the case of great hunger.

So, humans may like 333 mBar. And that can work. But then you need a certain amount of cost of structure to satisfy.

If however, you go to say 70-100 mBar, you might still grow vascular plants, and get Oxygen and food. But you would still have to pay the cost of windows to hold the differential pressure.

I suggest a pool of water where it is ice water, held in by a chevron window of the types I have described, and then you can have plastic bubble farms inside that would grow the hydrilla or some other plants.

The Hydrilla bags might need some heat at times other than sunlight. But if these pools/canals can be considered solar energy generators, then you have the potential of an excess of Oxygen, and plant materials. You store the Oxygen perhaps as Perchlorate, or just harvest the perchlorate from the native soil, and you put the plant matter into giant underground/under-ice freezers, for later use to produce Hydrocarbons, and Hydrogen. The Hydrocarbons are also greenhouse gasses.

And you could easily get distilled water from this system.

And I am thinking of the roof being of plastic film protected by a chevron surround girdle.

I am hoping for a method with low materials costs, but high materials gains.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 11:54:06)

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-19 11:59:37

For Void re excellent drawings in Post #257

Just out of curiosity, and not to imply anything at all ... if the structure you are showing is holding pressure, would there be a tendency for the roof to assume a cylindrical form?

Again, just curious!

(th)

Void · 2022-05-19 13:05:32

(th) Quote:

Today 12:59:37
tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,941
Email
For Void re excellent drawings in Post #257
Just out of curiosity, and not to imply anything at all ... if the structure you are showing is holding pressure, would there be a tendency for the roof to assume a cylindrical form?
Again, just curious!
(th)

Thanks for stopping by. I think you are pretty much correct. The roof as a whole, if it were over a canal might want to resemble a Quonset hut, if over a circular pool might want to resemble a dome.

I favor the canal configuration for many reasons, even if it is not to transport barges.

I think a simi-hoop Chevron(s) for the retaining roof would be very interesting as it would have tensile strength to help to retain the balloon, and also compressive strength. The compressive strength might allow for cleaning machinery to travel on top of it to dust it off.

However, the Chevrons could also be linear in parallel with the line of the canal.

The arbitrary value of ~20 mBar, would possibly allow for the surface water to boil in the sunshine, but that could be turned to a strength, as you could have a condensation method to develop distilled water from that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 13:09:03)

Void · 2022-05-19 13:21:17

I should mention that the use of a Chevron window on the surface of Mars will be more complex to think about than for a greenhouse in orbit of Mars. In orbit of Mars, it would be likely to point the window permanently at the sun.

On the surface of Mars, your latitude and the time of year would influence the presentation of sunshine to the mirrors of the chevrons.

But such a frame to retain a balloon, is not to be ruled out. It is just that a "One Size Fits All" notion will not hold. You would have to customize each situation, and it is possible that some of the mirrors will have to be able to re-position sometimes for effectiveness.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-19 13:24:50

For Void re #260 .... thank you for noting my inquiry!

I'm looking forward to seeing the evolution of your vision(s) as they arrive.

(th)

Void · 2022-05-19 16:51:40

Well, I guess I will try to string things together more, nail things down.

We generally think that chemical energy is relatively off limits for Mars and away from Earth.

But maybe not so far out of reach.

Fuel Cells, should they not be hype, be reliable would be good if they could work with Methane and Oxygen: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 130939.htm
This one claims to: Science Newsfrom research organizations
Finally, a robust fuel cell that runs on methane at practical temperatures
Date:
October 29, 2018
Source:
Georgia Institute of Technology
Summary:
Either exorbitantly expensive fuel or insanely hot temperatures have made fuel cells a boutique proposition, but now there's one that runs on cheap methane and at much lower temperatures.

I am repeating to some extent but so what: Methane producing bioreactors.

So, I know little about these things, except that the simple ones run on manure, but I am sure can run on plant materials.

This one seems to speak of PH control. I am guessing that using CO2, or Calcium from decomposed Perchlorates might be a possible route to controlling PH. As I said I don't know that much about this.

But I am guessing that massive amounts of this type of production or something similar might be set up on Mars to produce Methane continuously, from organic matter grown in greenhouses.

For now, at least I think that is a given possibility.

The storage of Oxygen in Perchlorate Salts and Brines, seems a likely technology for Mars. The Salts are available in the regolith, and there is some reason to think the aquifers may in part be of Perchlorate brines.

Others seem to think so as well.
https://engineering.wustl.edu/news/2020 … ty%20water
Quote:

The system developed in Ramani’s lab can produce 25 times more oxygen than MOXIE using the same amount of power. It also produces hydrogen, which could be used to fuel the astronauts’ trip home.

So, with Methane from bioreactors, could you get a net energy gain that would power the electrolysis even in a dust storm?

Hopefully a gain that is very beyond just keeping the process running.

As for the Organic matter, Mars is very perfect for preserving dried and/or cold organic matter, most likely in underground locations, but well, maybe in sheds of some type above ground.

I am not knocking Nuclear reactors, it is just that we don't use just one power source on our grids here or Earth, so why would we do that on Mars?

And going a bit more "Native" seems sensible to me relative to using strait electricity, H20, and CO2.

The processes would provide Methane, Hydrogen, and Oxygen which it seems likely people with skills like Calaban could figure out how to make liquid fuels from. Also some crops, perhaps Hydrilla, might be possible to ferment for Ethanol as well. I don't know, but it seems like something to look into. Maybe some GM work could increase the sugar production for a plant like Hydrilla, or some other plant.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 17:10:01)

Void · 2022-05-19 17:27:31

So, yes for Hydrilla there is some biogas works. I would like sugar as well, will search for that as well, but don't expect much.

https://repository.rmutp.ac.th/xmlui/ha … 56789/3319
Quote:

The study of biogas production from anaerobic co-digestion chicken manure and hydrilla (hydrilla verticillata (L.f.) Royle)

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … 20637-6_12
Quote:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … 20637-6_12

I have post this before, about Hydrilla: https://www.eattheweeds.com/hydrilla/

Interesting about Hydrilla: https://askinglot.com/what-is-hydrilla-used-for

http://ccetompkins.org/environment/aqua … f-hydrilla

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 17:44:06)

Void · 2022-05-19 18:07:15

Oxygen production for Hydrilla may be questionable. CO2 absorption is its strength though.

Not sure: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ox … &FORM=VIRE

Sometimes yes apparently. It does look like you can separate the output as a gas rather easily though.

https://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/manage/over … ed-oxygen/

OK, I think that I understand how Hydrilla can exhaust water of Oxygen. It releases Oxygen as air bubbles, and so that may tend not to absorb into the water. But it uses Oxygen at night.

At least that makes sense to me.

The problem can apparently be much worse, if an algae infestation should occur.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 18:13:01)

Void · 2022-05-19 18:18:56

Hard to say if another plant could provide sugar. I ran into this recently:

Seagrass: https://phys.org/news/2022-05-sweet-sea … grass.html
Quote:

Sweet spots in the sea: Mountains of sugar under seagrass meadows

And this is also interesting about Seagrass: https://www.bing.com/search?q=grain+fro … 89429cbf62
Quote:

Spanish Chef Ángel León and his research team are investigating the culinary prospects of a seagrass grain that they believe can help solve the climate crisis and improve food security. León’s research on the Zostera Marina grain, a type of seagrass, began in 2017 when he stumbled upon the grain in the Bay of Cádiz in Southern Spain.

I think that unlike Hydrilla Sea grass may need an air pocket above it. Not impossible to set up.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 18:23:15)

Void · 2022-05-19 18:39:08

I may or may not have Covid again, (It's complicated), so I don't have a whole lot else to do tonight until I am cleared.

Sugar Kelp:

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/species/sugar-kelp

I think that several problems for Mars can exist. Global Dust Storms may produce darkness for to long. Also making the correct salt conditions and waves might be trouble. But perhaps some GM could transfer the sugar characteristic to Hydrilla.

I know that there are many who don't like GM, particularly from Europe, but it would be for Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 19:22:55)

Void · 2022-05-19 19:28:35

So, on the question of a canal system with say a ~20 mBar "Head Pressure", then pressurized inflated bags for growing plants, most likely aquatic.

Barges perhaps being able to skim above those. (I know it is fanciful).

Small "Turn-Off" canals that lead to a deep hole so that the bags and maybe even the barges can be submerged and planted/harvested in diving bells, or on/off loaded.

In a long of system of canal, a problem could be that a serious leak could depressurize the ~20 mBar head pressure. So, I guess overhead doors that can come down and isolate ruptured sections. And also a quick repair service that is quite active and availible.

I know that for historical reasons, anyone who suggests Canals on Mars, is in for a rebuff. But I think it may be a real thing.

Many places on Mars are rather flat, such as the Northern Plains. Maybe Hellas as well to a degree.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … 20activity.
Quote:

The morphology and characteristics of the martian surface differ significantly depending on location. The northern hemisphere of Mars is flat, smooth and, in places, sits a few kilometres lower than the southern. The southern hemisphere, meanwhile, is heavily cratered, and peppered with pockets of past volcanic activity.

Lots of canals could lead to lots of farm bubbles. Lots of those could lead to lots of Ethanol, sugar, food, Methane, Oxygen.

And even though you would need a pressure shell/suit, it would be pretty interesting to travel in a boat on such a canal.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-19 19:33:05)

Void · 2022-05-19 20:16:13

Well I am posting a lot just now......

When I said barge, perhaps we could think more robotic Canoes. That way you could have periodic segmentation of the canals, with isolation doors and portage rollers, and robotic arms in each divider of segments.

It has occurred to me that this could be considered "Organic Solar" power. In some ways more storable than electricity and heat.

Done.

Void · 2022-05-20 09:54:32

Working on the recent notion of solar canals, I will say that I feel I am getting closer to a practical solution(s), but that does not yet become money in the bank. It is just problems partly solved, and the hope stretches our reach to try to get to a greater solution.

So, I am thinking about multi-use structures where possible.

In the case of a sort of Quonset Hut overhead shell to shield, what is within, I am currently hoping for a metal mesh of mirrors, that can serve as a pressure retaining net for balloons within.

A multi-use for that would be to turn the metal mesh into an electrical conductor. So, naturally, if possible, an Aluminum based alloy might be wanted. Afforded? Don't have that calculated or solved at this point.

Where the frame itself could be a conductor of electricity, it might also be possible to use a "Water-Ground" for the other, but that would have problems.

You could divide the frame into two or more conductors. It would make things trickier, but electric is already tricky, and we use it.

The question of dust and cleaning it, and abrasion and short circuits would exist. In the case of a solid Aluminum alloy mesh, then you would not have a reflective metalized coating that would be eroded off, but the entire mesh could be kept somewhat reflective and as an electrical conductor. You would certainly need robots to constantly clean the frame mesh.

I am thinking of <= 50 Volts DC, as to avoid AC line losses, and to reduce lethality and short circuit leakage. I believe that the Martian atmosphere itself can conduct electricity to some degree, but hope the 50 VDC is not so much that that would be an excessive factor.

Where I have previously indicated that the canals would be Organic Solar collectors, I am anticipating that adjacent to them would be various types of electric generating facilities. Solar Panel, maybe Solar Heliostat, maybe even Nuclear Fission. Electric energy storage devices would be distributed about as well.

So, this would not be like a situation where you have a massive power station in one location and a city some distance away. Rather a "Checker-Board" of structure.

Of the places that we think have water ice in abundance, the Poles, Hellas, and Korolev Crater, may be off limits for this until some terraforming has occurred. The seasonal loading of CO2 Ice may be too damaging.

North Hellas might be OK if you had Aquifer well water, as it is closer to the Equator.

Excluding access to well water, then that leaves the Rift Valley, and the currently planned landing location for the Starship, it's buried ice sheet as options we could be aware of.

Access to water, and shelter from weather are the primary selectors for locations.

We know more about the mid latitude ice slabs, less about the ice body in the Mariner Rift Valley.

Query: "Nature of ice sheets on Mars"

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/sha … nuary%2012.

https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news … ion-images

Query: "Ice slab on Mars"
https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … ts%20added.
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

------

So a question I am thinking about is, "Is it possible to absorb water from the Martian atmosphere?". The answer is yes, but of course what is needed is to absorb it in such a way that it is a gift, and not a burden.

Moisture in the Martian air is very small, but is maximum in the very early morning, I think, still at night.

Query: "Maximum Relative Humidity on Mars": https://www.space.com/29857-mars-humidi … tmospheric

Quote:

According to Rummel, the humidity of Mars is tied to temperature fluctuations. At night, relative humidity levels can rise to 80 to 100 percent, with the air sometimes reaching atmospheric saturation. The daytime air is far drier, due to warmer temperatures.

So, as a starter, then suppose you compress outside air into the canal coverings, from ~5.5 mBar to ~20 mBar, only when the RH% is high enough to make it worthwhile. To do this then you need a night time source of energy such as batteries or Nuclear.

Then during the day you bubble air out of the canal coverings through perchlorate brines that are extremely cold, to absorb the moisture.
Then of course you have to use a distillation process to get the moisture out of that brine from time to time.

It would just be a question of cost of process, but it may be that if your canal coverings were effectively moisture tight, then you could accumulate moisture at a slow rate over time.

Cost vs. productivity value.

So the canal covers have to be tight, and also, the colder the canal water the better. So in cases where you want to accumulate water from the atmosphere, it might be good to keep the canal water at a sub freezing temperature, so then it has to be brine. So, cold brine water may inhibit farming, but would float objects better. So, perhaps you would have some of each. Some that loose water but are for farming and some that are colder but can accumulate water.

But if you have access to continuous aquifer water or can flow water from major sources to your usage, then absorbing atmospheric moisture becomes less attractive.

For the imagination you might wonder how it would be to canoe on the Canadian Sheild, if the Earth's gravity was .38 g.

Obviously to some extent you could endure portaging almost 3 times as much mass, for a similar muscle effort.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-22 11:05:32)

Void · 2022-05-22 10:52:50

I'm in the mood to overlay two existing/possible realities, as I think it could help to identify possibility for Mars.

The Canadian Shield: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield

Mars is it's own thing(s), and somewhat resembles Earth Polar regions, and Earth Deserts. But I would think to make the case that in the very distant past some of it would have resembled the Canadian Shield, and that in Terraforming it, some of it would again resemble the Canadian Shield.

A sensible means of transport in the Canadian Shield can be by water, although some roads make sense as well. But it tends to be rugged and not vastly productive for biology, so small craft water travel often makes sense.

So, if we believe that Mars could have been a bit like the Canadian Shield at one time, and that with Terraforming it might again have some characteristics of it, then it might not hurt to think about how transportation methods would be favored in such a situation.

As like Earth, you would have a choice of air, land, and water methods, and you would use any of these to the extent they could support human activities.

In this case I am primarily interested in shallow, narrow water pathways, sometimes linked by relatively short roads, (Portages).

So you would be able to lift almost 3 times as much materials across the "Roads" by hand. But of course if we are not using this as preserved wilderness, you would use assistive machinery to reduce the burden on your body.

So, just to sort of give depiction of possible starts to such assistive machinery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage

So, I anticipate that this combination of methods could actually make some sense for Mars, once it is terraformed.
But, I am also looking at doing a similar set of methods for Mars as it is now.

Some types of water for Mars can be Fresh Water, Brine Water, and Perchlorate Brine Water.

Sources of water that I am aware of can be Ice Caps, Buried Ice, Aquifers, and from the Atmosphere.

From the atmosphere is generally discredited, but the reality is that if you can accumulate more than you distribute, then on balance you could retain a body of water even if the input/output rate was very small.

So, I am currently setting aside Fresh Water, and Perchlorate Brine Water, to an extent to explore super saturated very cold normal salt brine waters.

I would think about what would happen if this pond were created in higher pressure areas of Mars. Hellas, Mariner Rift Valley, and Northern Plains.

Don Juan Pond:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
Quote:

Don Juan Pond is a small and very shallow hypersaline lake in the western end of Wright Valley (South Fork), Victoria Land, Antarctica, 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) west from Lake Vanda. It is wedged between the Asgard Range to the south and the Dais Range to the north. On the west end is a small tributary and a rock glacier. With a salinity level of 33.8%, Don Juan Pond is the saltiest of the Antarctic lakes.[1][2] This salinity allows the pond to remain liquid even at temperatures as low as −50 °C (−58 °F) due to the interference of salts with the bonding of water molecules.
Don Juan Pond was discovered in 1961 by George H. Meyer. It was named for two helicopter pilots, Lt. Don Roe and Lt. John Hickey, who piloted the helicopter involved with the first field party investigating the pond.[2]

My guess is that during the nights, the intense cold would still cause ice to form. If so, then dust would cover the pond, an it may be reduced in warming from the sun. Day warming from the sun would tend to favor evaporation. Also at -50 Degrees C, there would be a risk of melting permafrost below, and the pond then draining into a "Aquifer".

But, what if you covered the pond? What if you moderated the temperature swings with that cover, and what if you prohibited the accumulation of dust, and kept the water temperatures moderated. Just on a guess, say ~(-30 Deg C)?

The permafrost may hold and not allow the water to sink into the ground, and the vapor pressure of the fluid would be very low relative to the ambient pressure of ~>9 mBar. (Low spots on Mars). The covering also would discourage evaporation from wind passing over the water.

Like Don Juan Pond this water environment would not be friendly to life. But we might not care, as we can make greenhouses attached to the canals, that would have conditions more favorable to life.

Query: "Compressing Martian atmosphere to get water out of it."
https://www.universetoday.com/89469/mar … ith-water/
https://marspedia.org/Atmospheric_processing

I remember long ago reading that the Martian atmosphere can be so saturated with water that if you just compress it water would condense from it. Of course, a lot of work for just a little water.

But where I would like to see the use of brine canals for Transportaion of cargo, and water and salts, can these covered canals also be radiators?

This brine water then a coolant for processes, perhaps. But also, at times could you compress Martian air into the water at depth, and condense water out of that?

Actually I recall materials which indicated that there are places on Mars where salt flats get warm enough and are salty enough to attract water and be habitable to extreme life. But these are hard to find. A topic like that can be displaced by other similar topics, such as the notion of liquid water under the South ice cap.

This gets partially there: https://themis.asu.edu/news/salt-deposi … -highlands

This is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride- … ts_on_Mars

There is some reason to be paranoid that a certain part of a certain community is trying to divert human attention from the colonization of Mars. If this were true, then such people would view most other people as servant people, and feel that we have no other use than to provide an environment where they can benefit from our efforts. In that case, it is always more important to control a small pond than to allow the development of a larger Reality that they are not completely the beneficiary of. But if they do exist, (And they do), with a struggle we can work around them over time.

I have allowed for canals to be filled from ice and from aquifers. But I am inclined to think that it may be possible to fill them from the air at times.

Query: "High relative humidity on Mars in the nighttime."
https://www.seeker.com/is-mars-humid-en … 00337.html
Query:

According to Rummel, the humidity of Mars is tied to temperature fluctuations. At night, relative humidity levels can rise to 80 to 100 percent, with the air sometimes reaching atmospheric saturation. The daytime air is far drier, due to warmer temperatures.

Query: "Brine absorbing water from the air"
https://phys.org/news/2009-06-air-humid … 20absorbed.
Quote:

The principle of the process is as follows: hygroscopic brine - saline solution which absorbs moisture - runs down a tower-shaped unit and absorbs water from the air. It is then sucked into a tank a few meters off the ground in which a vacuum prevails. Energy from solar collectors heats up the brine, which is diluted by the water it has absorbed.

So, then the brine canals could absorb moisture from the air provided the energy and means existed at the time of high night humidity. And then the above tells you how you can extract fresh water from that, should that be of use.

I am not sure that the coverings of the canals have to hold a air pressure at all. Just assist in retaining moisture. You might compress the humid night air into the brine in machines, or at the bottoms of the canal where the pressure would be higher.

My understanding is that the Great Salt Lake absorbs a lot of moisture out of the air during the winter, by a similar process. Pressurizations is not involved though. Cold brine water tends to pull moisture out of the air and inhibit evaporation.

So, if this can work, it may be attractive where the air pressure is at the higher end for Mars, and where other problems such as CO2 precipitation do not dominate winters.

I am interested in the icy area in the Mariner Rift Valley, and also Norther Hellas, both which may qualify, I believe.

So then the notion of Canoes may dominate over proper barges on Mars as the scale is more likely to suit purposes, and with the .38 g situation portaging with machinery, would make quite a bit of sense in my opinion.

Of course the ~~~30 degC water would be lethal to an unprotected human, but of course so would ~9-12 mBar pressure. The Canoes should not care.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-22 12:13:04)

Void · 2022-05-22 12:27:49

If we should have to fear the word mongers, trying to discredit the word Canal on Mars, due to history, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_Lowell), then use the words "Pipeline" or "Ditch" or "Pipeline-Ditch-Culvert".

After all that is what these would be or could be.

Now that I think of it perhaps some of the river valleys could host such as well. A very clear path from a point 'A' to a point 'B', in some cases.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-22 12:29:49)

Void · 2022-05-22 14:29:56

I recall reading that it is thought that if the CO2 of the Martian ice caps were evaporated to the atmosphere, the proper snows could happen and temporary melt water streams from the subsequent snow melts.

It is often hard to fetch back to such remembered articles. But some articles come close. The thing is it is possible that on occasion the atmosphere of Mars may still do that for a while. Not proven but possible.

https://earthsky.org/science-wire/melt- … tain-life/

This article is not quite that, but it suggests a possible reason why the atmosphere of Mars is just below the Tripple point of water on average.

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … le%20point.

So, yes if you terraform Mars even a little running water could reduce atmosphere volume/pressure. So, you would want to minimize that. Possibly later the canals would have bottoms of manufactured materials, that would not react with the fluids, and you would also want to minimize losses of atmosphere by other means. Also you would want to produce more atmosphere by many possible methods, such as from the Moons of Mars and the water of Mars.

But if you just got accomplished the task of vaporizing all of the CO2, and produced a water cycle of snows, and temporary melt water streams, then the sensible thing to do would be to collect the melt water into your canal system as efficiently as you could to reduce losses to subsequent evaporations.

So, this would like get humans a world that was just capable of life support for them.

That is my opinion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-22 14:36:16)

Void · 2022-05-23 10:16:43

To continue, I think I did not quite explain how a permafrost layer under a body of water could melt. It would be a balance of temperature and how briny, that is how much salts. So, a ~(-30 degC) water should likely be kept less salty than the -50 degC quoted for Don Juan Pond.

Having said that, using very salty water from saline bodies of water it may be possible to estimate the shape and possible performance of a watercraft that floats on a heavy cold brine, and also does not have to worry about wind blowing it around.

The specific gravity of the brine fluid, also suggests that such watercraft could carry more load than in fresh water.

I am probably not done with this but have something else to post about for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-23 10:18:27)

Void · 2022-05-23 10:23:17

Reference Materials:

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/ho … n%20system.
This post is to be quite a lot about Heliostat mirrors and the targeting of natural and created elevated objects, by such, and the creation of a microclimate of relative cold in the proximity of the mirrors. Take note of the picture quote below:

Picture Quote:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.de70828f9e2 … ImgRaw&r=0

There are many elevated objects from nature on the Martian surface. The polar ice caps, the volcano's, crater center peaks, crater rims, and the valley formations, particularly the rift valley above.

Water in the canyon is of course of great interest: https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon
Picture Quote:

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/j8i2y … 0.jpg.webp

Layered Deposits to build cities in? I think so: Query: "Origin and evolution of the layered deposits in the Valles Marineris, Mars"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3587900868

So, the term "Energy Density" has showed up here from other members, and elsewhere as well.

So, typically for earth an array of heliostats aim at a constructed tower, for the various locations on Mars it may be possible to have arrays of heliostats aim at a natural object that is elevated, provided they are in "Line of sight" with it.

So then to place a energy concentration on a butte or even canyon wall where you might dig a city into layered deposits. To make this more useful to the Martian effort other things might be done with these Heliostats:
-Aim up at spacecraft in orbit, when that is helpful for them to propel.
-Create a micro-climate cold spot to encourage condensation/snows.

So, such a micro-climate may be more possible on Mars than Earth, as atmosphere does not share heat and cold nearlly as well on Mars as for Earth. And so, the heat of night comes primarily from a surface that was heated by the day before night. So, if you reroute photons away from the area of the array of Heliostats, to an elevated site of energy concentration, then you make it more likely that in the nights, snows or frosts might occur. This of course could be to a degree to coat the mirrors, which is not an advantage, but perhaps at night they would have a posture to compensate for that to not allow accumulations on the surface.

It may be then that if snow banks persist under the shadow of the heliostats, removal machines can "Mine" it to a machine to melt it.

But this water harvesting effort is not immediately required as it seems that there is an area the size of the Netherlands in the rift valley of ice permafrost.

This process of relocation of water to the lower latitudes could be done all of the place, to provide small cold islands, and the complement action would be to warm the poles, by changing albedo, and also using orbital mirrors, to warm the ice caps.

Orbital mirrors might also work in concert with arrays of ground mirrors to accomplish tasks such as assisting spacecraft propulsions.

And it should be apparent that just about any crater or mountain, or the edge of the ice caps could be worked with in similar fashions.

An interesting thing to do would be to store heat in tunnels in the rock of the elevated targets. You could have a boiler at the bottom of a diagonal shaft, and boil water which would rise and then condense on the rock and run back down to the boiler. These could be of such a magnitude that you would have heat energy that could last for months and even years, and so a method to deal with global dust storms.

Danish high temperature solar cells could be incorporated into the boiler perhaps?

Query: "danish high temperature solar cells"

Stray info, but interesting: https://stateofgreen.com/en/news/gigant … completed/

This again: https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html
Picture Quote:

https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/20 … htempe.jpg

So, in this case, immediate electricity but also heat to a boiler for a tunnel system?

So, I think not a bad notion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-23 10:59:09)

Void · 2022-05-24 07:52:37

OK, I have this. I talked about it a bit, but here is a diagram:

This adds to the potential of the Rift Valley.

Some people want nuclear fission, and OK, do all of that that you can and want to. I have no problem with it.
But this then is another option.

As I have spoken before, the array of Heliostats can be temporarily repurposed to other tasks, such as to cure bricks, or melt something, or to send extra power to an orbital spacecraft.

A think I did not yet mention is that it would be possible, perhaps to send power from location 'B' or 'C' to somewhere else by microwaves.
In reality there could be multiple tunnels like this and large swaths of East<>West arrays of Heliostats in the Rift Valley.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-05-24 07:56:52)

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