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#226 2022-05-09 12:01:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I like that double glaze chevron structure.  I think it might work OK for Dr. Johnson's "Mushroom House", and other structures.

Well, I did that on the cheap, just rotated the original: 34x7eKL.png

So, the inner "Glaze #1" could be a pressure holding balloon, and the Chevron Structures could be a girdle, or retainer if you like.
The outer "Glaze #2" might be in panels that can be set into place by some latching mechanism.   As these yellowed over time, they could easily be replaced.

UV might be handled in part, by the reflective characteristics of the mirrored surfaces of the chevrons.  A cleaning robot would be very necessary.

And so other structures could use something like this as well.

It might also be noted that in certain situations, chevron structures could also serve as radiator devices, if so designed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-09 12:07:33)


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#227 2022-05-10 10:15:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Polar Ice Cap Trees smile

8ln7dGX.png

OK, this is some of the further out stuff, perhaps in the lines of......."Index» Terraformation» Productive walking Baba Yaga Robot Trees."

What I am really after is to work with the favorable factors of the ice caps, endure the bad, and also use this as a terraform method, (In addition to many others), and prosper, changing the effective Albedo of the ice caps and changing the balance of condensation of CO2, and perhaps, H20.

The ice caps proper, have the longest periods of prolonged sunlight on the planet, the summers, of course.

The ice caps are themselves reflective, and so almost like heliostats, so you would not only get direct sunlight but reflected sunlight as well.

The "Trees" would of course be mechanical.  They could be joined by tunnels in the ice, passages for people and machines.

These however would also have to endure being coated in ice primarily of CO2, I think in the winter.  They would also have to endure the thaw as well.

I am thinking that the lattice/girdle of chevron mirror walls will be built primarily of metals of strength, and that a large balloon to be inflated inside of that frame.

And so then, "Green" ice caps.  A forest of these things, to prevent sunlight being reflected into space.  These ice caps being key places where CO2 collects.

I guess this might be best done in the south ice cap as it has a permanent CO2 reservoir of ice.

But in reality, the sooner, the seasonal CO2 could evaporate from both caps, the more temporary might be the larger seasonal ice caps.

It does seem to me that the polar deposits obviously offer a lot of water resources.  Lasers may be able to carve the tunnels between "Trees". 

Nuclear Fission?  I have no objections to it.

Seasonal habitation?  Well, maybe mostly it would be inhabited by robots anyway.  Producing produce, that could be transported to lower latitudes where larger human populations might exist?

Tunneled out ice could also be routed to created lakes and seas of the types I have often talked about.

Going after all of the possible fulcrums of terraforming seems sensible to me.  For instance, creating high altitude clouds at the same time, may give greater heat to the planet in general.  Both the clouds and the "Albedo Trees", would tend to heat the poles more than Hellas, so that may reduce global dust storm activities.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-10 10:26:01)


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#228 2022-05-11 07:20:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Building on the just prior post #227, I feel it could be fitted in, to use orbital mirrors.  In this case rather than shining light onto reflective ice alone, you would be shining it to more be intercepted by this "Forest" of mechanical "Trees".

And the possibility of inhibiting the condensation of CO2 as ice, is also parallel to the likely increased evaporation of water ice into water vapor in the atmosphere.  This then might more tend to favor the high-altitude clouds that are desired if our notion is to bring Mars to life.

And orbital mirrors would then more make the polar areas habitable even perhaps in the darkness of winter night.

Even so, Mars being a smaller world than Earth, the notion of migration of human activity with availability of photon activated animation seems worth efforts to utilize as an option.  (That's quite a sentence smile ).  Probably wrongly done!
So, send the word police.  We can have coffee.

I guess that is enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-11 07:24:04)


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#229 2022-05-11 07:36:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I guess "Greenhouse-Robots" could be used in certain situations where the ice was unstable.  Slow moving legs, or assistive robots to make adjustments.

Also, the old idea of tossing dirt or Carbon onto the ice is not wrong either, especially if you are shinning more light from orbit onto the ice deposits.

All the tricks in the book, including greenhouse gasses of course.

The ice caps Propper are not that much of the area of Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_p … f7b5f29105

In the process of shining light onto the "Trees", an generation of electrical power is not prohibited.  In fact that could occur at much lower temperatures than for greenhouse plant activities.

So, then the process of terraforming Mars, could be directly connected to  orbital power transmissions.  That and the water could make the polar areas very prime for industry.

As I have said, I am not phobic about Nuclear either.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-11 07:41:26)


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#230 2022-05-12 12:11:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

CANOES ON MARS smile

I have had a bit of a look at it before, now I am going to promote the notion, as a notion.  Something at least worth a conversation.

My query for "Canoes on Mars", did not turn up so much but these things: https://paddlingmag.com/boats/canoes/canoe/
Hopefully no woke and the like will accuse me of exploiting the Maori: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81or … ion_canoes

These days you almost have to expect that sort of thing.

Here is whitey in canoes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyageurs

So, canoes come in a variety of sizes.

As for Mars, of course I am thinking of conduits, largely of supplemented ice, where air and water are fluids running through them, so basically undersurface canals.

I have done some canoeing in wilderness from time to time, so then know physically what that is like.  I am guessing that a fair number of readers have done similar.

Keep in mind that these would essentially be "Pipelines" that transport water and air, and goods, and even people.

Under some circumstances they may be associated with greenhouse activity, and when more developed they may also be associated with Hydroelectric power on Mars.

Actually, I don't think it is a dumb idea at all.

More later.

Done.



The deal with canoes is you may float a load, and you may also portage a canoe and a load.  As it is now, in our parks, typically you may not use mechanical assistance for portage, but on Mars, I am sure you would.  And you have a gravity field of .38 to start with.

Where transport though undersurface canals may seem silly at first, consider that you would not have voyageurs on the payroll, but robots which would be quite patient.  Further your canoes may be powered by trolly lines, or even batteries.  Although batteries might pollute the air if they burn, and trollies may create Ozone.  Problems needing solving.

So, these would have motors, and low friction and would not travel on wheels, although the mechanical assistance may have wheels of sorts.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-12 12:26:52)


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#231 2022-05-12 12:52:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well this might be useful for eyeballing the situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars#/med … _HiRes.jpg

Hellas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Pl … and%20rock.
Quote:

Possible glaciers

Tongue-shaped glacier in Hellas Planitia. Ice may still exist there beneath an insulating layer of soil.

Close-up of glacier with a resolution of about 1 meter. The patterned ground is believed to be caused by the presence of ice.
Radar images by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) spacecraft's SHARAD radar sounder suggest that features called lobate debris aprons in three craters in the eastern region of Hellas Planitia are actually glaciers of water ice lying buried beneath layers of dirt and rock.[15] The buried ice in these craters as measured by SHARAD is about 250 m (820 ft) thick on the upper crater and about 300 m (980 ft) and 450 m (1,480 ft) on the middle and lower levels respectively. Scientists believe that snow and ice accumulated on higher topography, flowed downhill, and is now protected from sublimation by a layer of rock debris and dust. Furrows and ridges on the surface were caused by deforming ice.

Also, the shapes of many features in Hellas Planitia and other parts of Mars are strongly suggestive of glaciers, as the surface looks as if movement has taken place.

Honeycomb terrain
These relatively flat-lying "cells" appear to have concentric layers or bands, similar to a honeycomb. This honeycomb terrain was first discovered in the northwestern part of Hellas.[16] The geologic process responsible for creating these features remains unresolved.[17] Some calculations indicate that this formation may have been caused by ice moving up through the ground in this region. The ice layer would have been between 100 m and 1 km thick.[18][19][16] When one substance moves up through another denser substance, it is called a diapir. So, it seems that large masses of ice have pushed up layers of rock into domes that were subsequently eroded. After erosion removed the top of the layered domes, circular features remained.

Keep in mind that I have my eye on all icy terrain on Mars ultimately.  It is just that if Hellas actually has some of significance then that is very inviting.

This may be close enough to supplement words: OaeWaqd.png

So, if you have an ice source, and icy permafrost, you might dig such tunnels.  You would want an insulating "Canal Bottom" of regolith.
Likely the water would be ice water for several reasons.

The internal pressure may work all the way from say~~~50 mb to 1000 mb.

Where it would be a transport for air and water, it would also be a reservoir of the same.

I think that this scheme will work OK, as you can have lifting mechanisms for the water transporters, and also may tunnel in rock where necessary for the water, and maybe even have a siphon like the "Los Angeles Aqueduct".

So, in flat icy areas, the canals, and where big elevation changes, hydroelectric power or siphons, to get the water to a lower elevation(s).

In the end, even the equator may be cold enough for ice tubes.  You might want to use reflective devices to help keep them cool though.

But Hellas is one of the targets, as it would be great for it's higher air pressure.  Just needs water and electric power, and so on.

The rift valley though is my choice for first settlement.

But in the end Mars could be a world where all CO2 is in the atmosphere and where the polar ice deposits are hollowed out to provide water for transport towards the equator.

I actually think it may be the way to do.

Done.

Tying into this then: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9617

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-12 19:24:47)


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#232 2022-05-12 18:19:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am actually pleased with the notion.  It is perhaps a way to size for an early industrial method.

Actually, the early British canal system might be a bit scaled up relative to what could be tried on Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o … nal_system

Actually, some of the canals look like glorified ditches.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMaga … f-Britain/

In post #227, "Tree", of some sort able then to melt surface water on the top of the Martian Ice Cap and drop it down the sides in tubes well insulated.  In the case of the South Cap, then it might be desired to try to direct it to the Hellas Depression.

This would then enable a settlement in Hellas.  (First you would tap the local glaciers, if they existed).

Hellas would be valuable for several reasons.  First of all, as an atmospheric column able to slow a Starship.

And of course, it would be a very good place to have agriculture methods.

And then that would allow still the high mountains to be places to move materials to orbit.

And then to create a magnetic field for Mars, and also utilize the moons of Mars for creation of additional atmosphere.

Hellas currently has a maximum pressure of ~12.5 Millibar, and if you double the atmosphere then a maximum pressure > 25 Millibar.  There will be compression so it will be > 25 Millibar.  And of course that would be much better than the 9 Millibar that typically would be used.

So, then even without other means of raising atmosphere at that location 25 Millibar is going to be quite in the direction of having ice covered bodies of water, possibly without ice armor.  But with some ice armor, very likely a place where early biospheres can begin.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-12 18:40:41)


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#233 2022-05-12 19:25:31

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Looking at this again: OaeWaqd.png

If the water if fresh, and just above the freezing point, then the regolith bottom and sides will likely keep the ice below from melting.

Above, it may be desired to have tenting above the water, and also a significant expense would be roof supports, which I am sure will be wanted.  So, a cheap version for them would be a welcome invention.

So, it is possible that these tubes would have electric rails in them and of course a water way, and an air fill.  Cargos will also travel through them.

A person would be able to work on the maintenance if needed, provided the air quality were good enough, or more likely they would wear a minimal suit, perhaps a bit like a SpaceX flight suit.

So, a power grid would be included and could connect one settlement to another, and would in this case power the canoes as well.  In the old days animals would tow watercraft in these situations.

As I have said there could be all kinds of lift devices to "Portage" the "Canoes".  This would get them around obstacles, and if you had a really skimpy canal, could even lift one canoe over another if they are traveling in different directions.  That would be a very small canal.

So, you can have elevators for canoes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o … nal_system
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o … t_Lift.jpg
This is cute: Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … _boats.jpg

Canoes would be a small scale that that and would tolerate ramps with rollers, and other mechanical tricks.  Just being small boats may not be that much of a problem, if you have a lot of them and the boats and system are automated/robots.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-13 21:09:35)


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#234 2022-05-12 20:03:11

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is a nice one: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ma … ORM=VRDGAR
Quote:

Making a Magnetosphere for Mars
YouTube · 22,000+ views · 13 hr ago · by Isaac Arthur

I felt he explained using L1 so I understand it a bit more. Lagites, Statite (Spelling?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statite

I was also please when he mentioned catching some of the atmosphere being lost, at L2.

I thought it was interesting that he suggests that we may eventually augment the Earth's magnetic field in a similar way, to make our orbital space more habitable as per radiation problems.

Yes, good stuff.  As you must know, I favor working with both the surface and subsurface of Mars (Far Mars), and the Orbits and moons of Mars (Near Mars).

I think that will get us the most "Bang for the Buck", and a very valuable $$$ world(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-12 20:33:03)


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#235 2022-05-13 10:17:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, flowing water is an aspect that would be valuable, especially in the later times, when it would be possible to skim the tops off of the ice caps by liquifying them and piping them downhill.

But also, static pools connected essentially by portage mechanisms would be valuable more so in the beginning.

Both early and later, they could have a biological function in addition to everything else.

The water has the function of transport of solids and the water itself.  But if it is in association with an atmosphere of either Air or CO2, and if certain "Foods" were added, then it could have a chemosynthetic biology in the water.

If it were CO2, then of course it could be compressed Martian air.  Biology would consume some of the materials of the Martian air, and would leaving behind "Tailings" of Argon and perhaps some Nitrogen.  You would simply have to keep adding Martian air as the biology consumed it.
In this case I would have to think that Hydrogen would have to be the food.

But breathable air, would be a bad place to put Hydrogen.  So, maybe Methane but that would have to be deeply controlled or you would get explosions.

So, I am actually thinking of organic matter from solar driven greenhouses.

Of course with ice water, any fish you grew would grow slow.  And I don't know which species would do, but I suppose there must be some artic fishes for fresh ice water.

And I would not bother putting much for lights in these things, as the robots would not need them and humans and robots could have portable lighting as might be needed.

I am satisfied that it would be very possible to have solar driven agriculture.

Calliban has suggested putting cabled balloon greenhouses, where cables tie the greenhouse to the ground.
Also having a frame/girdle/retainer for a balloon, made of chevron mirrors would contribute to this plan.
Robert, as I recall suggested that some crops could be grown at perhaps 70-100 Millibar?
And I can conceive of a minimal goop agriculture, where you would very likely require no pressurization more than the Martian ambient.

With the advent of advanced robotics, it will not be necessary for the bulk of agriculture on Mars to be compatible with human needs.  As an expense or for special crops, you could and almost certainly would build agricultural units that were satisfying to the human soul.  They might grow some types of produce, but would be the minority of calories produced.

If you had a structure made of a chevrons retainer, and a balloon inside, and could teleport artic ocean water into it from Earth, I expect that very close to ambient Martian atmospheric pressure could exist in side.  In other words, while it would not hurt to be able to push the pressure in the balloon up a bit the main purpose of the structure would be to inhibit evaporation of the water.  Not to prevent boiling.  And a "Greenhouse" like that could support at least microbes.

-----

The existence of usable aquifers could be very important for these "Canal-Tubes".  In that case you could more easily set up a progression of such things in Hellas.  While you might want to "Harvest" the glaciers, (If they exist), aquifer water might also be a convenience.

As I have said, I now favor a first settlement in the Rift Valley, but water solved, Hellas has to be considered prime real estate.

Except for where the glaciers are on the edges, (If they have ice), a lot of that basin is relatively flat and low.

The current maximum pressure in the basin, is significant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Pl … %20density.
Quote:

The crater's depth of 7,152 m (23,465 ft) below the topographic datum of Mars explains the atmospheric pressure at the bottom: 12.4 mbar (1240 Pa or 0.18 psi) during winter, when the air is coldest and reaches its highest density.
Diameter: 2,300 km (1,400 mi)
Planet: Mars
Quadrangle: Hellas
Region: Hellas quadrangle, south of Iapygia
Hellas Planitia - Wikipedia

Quote:

The altitude difference between the rim and the bottom is over 9,000 m (30,000 ft). The crater's depth of 7,152 m (23,465 ft)[1] below the topographic datum of Mars explains the atmospheric pressure at the bottom: 12.4 mbar (1240 Pa or 0.18 psi) during winter, when the air is coldest and reaches its highest density. This is 103% higher than the pressure at the topographical datum (610 Pa, or 6.1 mbar, or 0.09 psi) and above the triple point of water, suggesting that the liquid phase could be present under certain conditions of temperature, pressure, and dissolved salt content.[9] It has been theorized that a combination of glacial action and explosive boiling may be responsible for gully features in the crater.

So, even as is you might have a cold water fluid with a tent above it to prohibit evaporation and that pool of water would be long term.

But of course if you have a tent above the pool, you might as well use it's tensile strength a bit and raise the tents internal pressure within a comfort zone of it's strength.

And if it is to be done that the CO2 of the ice caps will be forced to exist as part of the atmosphere, and if you do not account for layered compression then a double of atmospheric pressure, (I presume the mean for the planet), would bring Hellas up to a maximum well above 25 Millibars.  I will just guess 30-40 Millibars in the best case.

Vapor pressure of water at room temperature = 23.8 mm Hg
1 mmHg = 1.33322 mBar

So, 31.730636 mBar???

Not sure I have that right.

This says different:
https://content.leybold.com/en/knowledg … r-pressure

Well, I will endure shame if needed for now.  Get back to it later perhaps.

The point is that at some level of pressure it may be possible to simply have vapor proof tenting and you could grow vascular plant crops in Hellas.

And then the chevrons enclosure/girdle/restraint could simply serve to protect the tent from the harsh environment.

So, farmland for calories would be greatly reduced in cost.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-13 10:58:59)


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#236 2022-05-13 17:45:46

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,782

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

If we ever do use pipelines to transport solid goods on Mars, then liquid CO2 would be more practical than water.  At Martian temperatures, water would need to be heavily saturated with salt to remain liquid.  Viscosity increases as temperature declines.  At -20°C, water would be as viscous as syrup.  But it turns out that water at 10°C still has about 10x the viscosity of liquid CO2 at -50°C.  At this temperature, CO2 vapour pressure is just over 5 bar.  That is less pressure than a domestic water pipe.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carb … _1000.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wate … d_596.html

Last edited by Calliban (2022-05-13 17:47:14)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#237 2022-05-13 20:38:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,761
Email
If we ever do use pipelines to transport solid goods on Mars, then liquid CO2 would be more practical than water.  At Martian temperatures, water would need to be heavily saturated with salt to remain liquid.  Viscosity increases as temperature declines.  At -20°C, water would be as viscous as syrup.  But it turns out that water at 10°C still has about 10x the viscosity of liquid CO2 at -50°C.  At this temperature, CO2 vapour pressure is just over 5 bar.  That is less pressure than a domestic water pipe.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carb … _1000.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wate … d_596.html

Last edited by Calliban (Today 18:47:14)

Calliban, we will need further communications/work, to actually be in any comprehensive level of agreements.  Much of what you have said is true, and yet does not reflect that you understood my materials fully.

I very much could use you time and good sense and abilities.

What you presented is an interesting alternative, but I would say rather a potential supplement.

I want you to consider mixture fluids as well. 
1) Water and Hydrogen Peroxide (Low explosion mixes, at low temperatures).
2) Sparkling water.  (H20 and CO2 mixed, I believe).  This one may also provide for some interesting energy options.  I am not entirely sure of that yet.  That is partly what I need you to help me with.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonated_water

I would like to set #1 and #2 aside for the moment, and call CO2 Liquid, (Your sub-topic), as #3.
Then I want to return to #4 which was my permafrost pipelines, then #1 and #2.

I want to be sure that we don't get into a binary argument, one or the other is the decision, when in reality we should explore all four, and perhaps even find more options.

------

#3, Liquid CO2 pipelines:  I think this is a just notion.  However the passages for this would then be higher pressure as you already noted, and so I anticipate they would either be tunnels bored in solid rock, and/or pipes made of high quality and therefore expensive materials.
That is not wrong, it can be justified by the productiveness of the "System".

Please keep in mind that for Mars or perhaps for some other "Worlds" we might use all of #1, #2, #3, and #4, as is practical and productive, at the same time.  I do note your indication that liquid CO2 has a favorable viscosity characteristic.  I will say then that for higher speed transits of "Loads" we might be interested in such a quality.  I will also note however that this use of liquid CO2 would not seem to be compatible with having the pipeline also transfer water and possibly Oxygen/Air.  Some versions of my #4 also include CO2 but as a vapor, so in that case O2 and Air are not transferred either.  All of the 4 could possibly have power lines or another type of battery enabled power system in them.


------

#4,  The utility way, (Pipelines) I have suggested would be largely built of permafrost and regolith with a few other manufactured elements of human technology.

The use of soil materials is common in history, so that part is not very strange.  McAdam was supposedly one of my ancestors smile  But I am sure I don't have claim to any glory for it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macadam#: … io%20River.

For using permafrost as a building material, we have Pykrete, and also dams in part made of permafrost.
Pykrete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete  This is a fun one.  And aircraft carrier?  smile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk

I first encountered the notion of Permafrost Dams being built by the Soviets.  But it seems Canadians may have done a bit of it.
https://russianpatents.com/patent/245/2 … %20More%20

In Alaska, of course for the pipeline they had to learn to work with the Permafrost rather than building with it.
https://torcsill.com/alaska/

So, of course I am trying to work with Permafrost big time for Mars.  I would like your assessment of this attempt.  It is supposed to be a cross-section of a utility way in permafrost.  Looking at this again: OaeWaqd.png

Grey indicates undisturbed permafrost if this is a tunneling effort in existing permafrost, or it could be fill where permafrost was built up on purpose by using water and soil.  Brown is soil not necessarily all frozen if in the tunnel, or as dry surface materials.  Blue signifies water, and white inside of the tunnel signifies anything from a very nominal ???50 mBar to 1010 mBar inside the tunnel  The gas mix could be compressed Martian atmosphere or actually manufactured Earth type Air, or at a lower pressure, pure Oxygen.

As you have suggested I am thinking of a pinch of salt in the water.  Maybe just enough to be like sea water.  This would allow the freezing point to be depressed a few degrees.  Also, I am thinking of literal Pykrete for the lining of the tunnel, and overhead a sheet of plastic or a "Web" as some might call it.  For making real Pykrete, I am thinking that it would indeed be good to grow Bamboo on Mars or in it's orbits.
Where I was worried about supports I have realized that if the tunnel is partially pressurized the propensity of the permafrost to sag will be reduced.  Also the ceiling of the tube will be closer to the cold of night, and you could put a reflective film over the ground on the surface to make sure that sunlight does not heat up that permafrost.

I am thinking of these "Tubes" as being like a blood circulation system in a body to some extent, except that typically water and air would flow in only one direction.  So these things could be built all over the place, if they worked, and could be interconnected.

As for electrical power, I am sure it could be dangerous, but you might even use the salty water as one of the conductors for a transmission system.  That is a maybe.  You would have to work out how to do that safely.

In order to build these things where the permafrost is dry, such as parts of the Hellas Basin, you would have to import water for ice in the permafrost, either down the canals or from aquifers more local.  I would anticipate that the robot canoes that would travel the water would go rather slow, and so viscosity might not be quite as critical an issue.

------

#2, Sparkling Water, is interesting as it might also have a lowered freezing point.  Here again the tube could not transfer Oxygen or Air.
Otherwise, it seems perhaps possible, but not normally what one might think of, but I have a notion of power generation using sparkling water on Mars.

For this one, I really want your assistance.  I am trying to formulate a heat engine using it.  I am thinking you will help me determine if and how it could be done.  This is specifically adaptable to Mars, it might only marginally work for Earth, I think.

Of course, for a Heat Engine you heed a Hot and a Cold.  The Hot could come from Nuclear of some kind or Solar Thermal or both.
That much is obvious.  But to reject heat to the Universe, it would be nice to reduce the amount of high maintenance/cost materials.

I of course am thinking of a lake of Sparkling Water with an ice raft over it, and ice armor over the ice.  Ice armor might be vapor protective film with protective heat conducting tiles on top.  This then should radiate heat to the Martian Sky, without the need for expensive heat exchangers, and pumps, or the risk of water freezing and damaging such equipment.

You would extract Sparkling Water from the lake, and push it through a heat source.  Let the CO2 flash to a steam, send that through a turbine, and then mix that output with lake water to quench it back to Sparkling Water which should then re-cool by the means I suggested. 

Salts could be included, if you want to make sure of the stratification properties of the lake.  Of course you also have to dump the water from the boiler back into the lake.

I sort of think I am close to something, what do you think?  Before dismissing it I would appreciate that you might ask me for further information if there is something that puzzles you.  Often people don't understand what is being projected and then just give a "No that won't work".  As a further item, if one were using stored heat, that can be stored in another lake, one that has brine stratification.  So, the potential for massive storage of both hot and cold should exist.

This is an example:
https://www.ecomena.org/solar-pond/#:~: … the%20pond.
And this again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pon … th%20depth.
Quote:

This greatly reduces heat loss, and allows for the high-salinity water to get up to 90 °C while maintaining 30 °C low-salinity water.[1] This hot, salty water can then be pumped away for use in electricity generation, through a turbine or as a source of thermal energy.

Keep in mind that this pond would be covered in ice with ice armor, and could have heat input from Nuclear and/or Solar Thermal.
It may be that by using different brines the temperatures at the bottom could be more than what the above pond achieves.

And of course you might not use Sparkling water for the turbine, but some other fluid, but then you may need expensive heat enchangers.

-----

A Hydrogen Peroxide Mix?  Well main concern it explosions I guess.  But you can then transfer both water and Oxygen by a flow.

It's late, for now I don't have any more for that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-13 21:48:49)


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#238 2022-05-13 21:52:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I will make a comment.  It annoys me that I and others struggle to find ways to figure out how to invent a new future, but the environmentalists simply choose to name us as criminal life forms and seek to starve us of resources.

I really don't think that they are nice people at all.  Reporting a problem is one thing but trying to enslave technological people with word games is a criminal behavior in my world.

Done.


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#239 2022-05-14 07:17:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Relating to post #237 and posts prior to that;

I have thought of a few other things.

First (th), recently mentioned mobile vehicles sliding on an icy surface.  If you cooled the tunnels off indeed this might be an option.  But while frozen of course running water is less an option.  Further, it is hard to say, but it may take more energy to move horizontally.

You might have both, a flow of canal water with ice on top of it but of course that makes moving water more tricky.

And I would say that for cold tunnels you could resort to the wheel, or even rails.

I am thinking a network of travel tunnels, so, it is not a one size fits all situation.  These many types could interconnect if that suits the purposes.

------

As for permafrost tunnel tricks.  Pykrete from Bamboo has already been mentioned.  Further, I may suggest that tensile and compressive support ribs could be embedded in the Pykrete where occasion calls for it.  Bubble wrap with one flat surface could be glued to the exposed arch surfaces with frozen water, to allow the water to be of a temperature near that of frozen water.

On the surface above the tunnels, solar panels could shade the tunnel permafrost materials, and perhaps even be staked into the permafrost as radiators.  The electricity could be "Piped" down into the tunnels.  If you added a heat pump, then you could also cool the panels while the sun was shining, and then pipe that heat to the tunnels, although of course you don't really want that much heat in them.

-------

As for salt and fresh water.  If you are transferring water, then you likely want fresh water.

If your objective is to move solid goods and liquids in barrels and/or air, then salty water may do better as you might be able to drop the temps in the tunnels.

-------

It looks to me that we really do want to have places to grow Bamboo.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-14 07:25:31)


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#240 2022-05-14 07:34:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,955

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void ... amidst the wide range of your thinking in recent days, I noticed your brief return to the idea of transporting goods on ice ...

While ** water ** ice might be difficult to acquire and to maintain, is there a chance that ** dry ** ice might serve as a surface for sleds?

It would be possible for any of us NewMars members to perform the experiment, if we have a source of dry ice available.

In the community where I live, we have several vendors who offer dry ice by the pallet load, although they can be persuaded to part with smaller quantities.

If you can design an experiment to see if dry ice will support a (small) sled, I would be willing to look into what it would take to make that happen.

The world of NewMars is almost entirely theory. Only rarely do actual experience or properties of matter come into view, and those are always short lived.

We have members like kbd512, Calliban and even GW Johnson to contribute Real Universe facts, but those examples occur rarely and in any case, they become part of the ever growing NewMars archive.

You can contribute Real Universe facts if you can inspire members to discover them.

(th)

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#241 2022-05-14 10:53:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

(th)
Quote:

For Void ... amidst the wide range of your thinking in recent days, I noticed your brief return to the idea of transporting goods on ice ...

While ** water ** ice might be difficult to acquire and to maintain, is there a chance that ** dry ** ice might serve as a surface for sleds?

Actually water is plentiful on Mars, just not everywhere.  Dry Ice is a seasonal thing except for the South Polar ice cap, which we hope to vaporize.  But for other worlds such as Titan, perhaps Dry Ice might work out.  But I am not familiar with the qualities of it which would matter for that function.

As for ice on Mars, this is a pretty good one: https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8568/nasas-t … e-on-mars/
Picture Quote:

A Water Ice Map for Mars: This rainbow-colored map shows underground water ice on Mars. Cool colors are closer to the surface than warm colors; black zones indicate areas where a spacecraft would sink into fine dust; the outlined box represents the ideal region to send astronauts for them to dig up water ice. Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU. Full image and caption ›

Keep in mind that the map indicated how much dry materials are on top of possibly think and icy permafrost, not how much ice is there.

I don't think that this map includes the polar deposits themselves, but I could be wrong.

Please note that for the south rim of Hellas which is about 1/4 the way up on the left side, there are plentiful greens and reds.
The greens are thin soil over ice.  The reds are thicker soil over possible ice.   So that is somewhere between (green = .5) to (red = .8) meters of soil over ice.

And please note that blues and even purples are just outside of the south rim of Hellas.

While the grey and black areas do not indicate as much ice, it can be there as well.
https://www.space.com/38330-water-ice-m … uator.html
Quote:

Water Ice Mystery Found at Martian Equator

https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-b … n-equator/
Quote:

Water ice found near Martian equator
August 17, 2017 8:27 am Robert Zimmerman

https://updatednews.com/icy-surprise-ne … n-equator/
Quote:

Icy Surprise Near the Martian Equator

And finally they just found evidence of an icy patch in the Mariner Rift Valley the size of the Netherlands: https://www.thewestonforum.com/mars-a-s … nd-canyon/
Quote:

They discovered huge amounts of water in the “Grand Canyon of Mars”

As for soil temperatures: https://www.space.com/16907-what-is-the … ees%20C%29.
Quote:

On average, the temperature on Mars is about minus 80 degrees F (minus 60 degrees Celsius) according to NASA. In winter, near the poles, temperatures can get down to minus 195 degrees F (minus 125 degrees C).

So baring a source of geothermal energy, then the deep soil temperatures should be about:

about minus 80 degrees F (minus 60 degrees Celsius)

So we could manufacture and maintain icy permafrost tunnels most places on Mars, provided the quantity of water was sufficient and the methods also intelligent.

(th), again.....
Quote:

For Void ... amidst the wide range of your thinking in recent days, I noticed your brief return to the idea of transporting goods on ice ...

Just to let you know that I consider myself a "Generalist" and not a "Specialist".  That is why I had to craft the topic to allow for a wide range of sub-topics.

George Friedman has things to say about Specialists/Generalists.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Friedman
George Friedman says that we prospered by having specialists since the WWII, but now we simply don't have people who can see the bigger picture.  In my opinion we are in an era where we are likely to be forced to take the car keys away from the specialists, as they don't know how to run things.  This is becoming evident more and more every day.

Heinlein: https://www.elise.com/quotes/heinlein_- … or_insects
Quote:

Heinlein – Specialization is for Insects
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

I guess the word is "Should".  I don't think I can do well in a lot of those things, at least not yet.

(th)
Quote:

We have members like kbd512, Calliban and even GW Johnson to contribute Real Universe facts, but those examples occur rarely and in any case, they become part of the ever growing NewMars archive.

Great people to hang out with.  They have so much to offer.

(th)
Quote:

You can contribute Real Universe facts if you can inspire members to discover them.

That is a good hope.

Just to let you know, as far as I can tell, all of the diverse postings that are made in this topic center around terraforming Mars, and also around human expansion to the whole solar system and maybe eventually beyond.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-14 11:33:57)


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#242 2022-05-14 12:50:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, there can be a planetary network in my opinion.  This would likely start from some "Sweet Spots".

I think that if the ice in the Mariner Rift Valley proves true and usable, then that is spot #1, rather than the mid latitude locations that were considered previously.

If navigation can handle it, then that is not a bad place to land Starship, as I think that the air pressure can be as high as perhaps ~9 mBar.

A machine I think will be wanted is a sub-orbital craft, probably rocket driven, but I believe that Dr. Zubrin has talked of a propulsion method where Martian air can be sucked in to the burn process, as mass, it would to very little to add energy.  But that could be assistive in propulsion methods.  For this craft, I would like it to avoid heat shields, so it should have limits on speed and altitude.

If that could be done, then the first use would be to hop in an out of the Rift Valley, presuming that a major settlement is there.

The Rift Valley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
Picture Quote:

Starship may be able to leap up to the tops of the shield Volcano's from the settlement in the Rift Valley, and then to orbit.  How this might make sense is that it would only carry enough Oxygen to get to the top of the Volcano, and then would get more Oxygen and then fly to orbit.
Ideally it could also get Methane on top of the Volcano's but that remains to be seen.  Perhaps a sub-orbit craft could fill tanks there, or maybe, just maybe the fuel could be manufactured there.

Of course I have been thinking about Ice.  One type we think we know a lot about, or at least something about would be the ice sheets of the Mid-Latitudes.  Query: "Ice sheets in the mid-latitudes of Mars".
https://time.com/5100356/mars-water-ice … .%E2%80%9D
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aao1619
https://www.universetoday.com/138256/hu … face-mars/
Picture Quote:

This one is a bit older: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Picture of Splash Crater:

Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

So, plenty deep for the Permafrost Tubes I have suggested.



https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008e … H/abstract
Quote:

Kilometer-thick ice-sheets in the northern mid-latitudes of Mars in the Amazonian: Analogs from the East Antarctic Ice Sheet and the Dry Valleys

Typically these ice deposits have some regolith mixed in, but are dominantly ice.

Having so much of the topography covered with these ice sheets, it seems likely that mineral deposits are hidden.  Methods to discover the minerals are desired, and access to the minerals are also desired.  In part the permafrost tunnels may be assistive in that.

Hellas is also a target due to the higher air pressure it can offer.
http://astrobiology.com/2022/02/ice-in- … -mars.html
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 15JE004956
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 1X09006682

I would say that expansion then should eventually lead to a method to melt the ice caps of Mars in sheets of ice covered lakes and to funnel the water down tubes to create hydro-electric power.  Then to convey the water to other locations through Permafrost tube transport systems.  Perhaps accessing the majority of the planet.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-14 13:30:02)


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#243 2022-05-14 17:14:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I realize that many people may think that small canals with canoes seems like silliness, but this avoids many wheel issues, and I have already indicated that it could also be associated with distribution of water from one location to another.

I think it was worth having a look at early British Canal works, because I suspect that if the British had tried to do bigger and "Higher Tech" activities before setting up these early precursors, then it might not have paid off.

Wheel and rails with wheels may be a possibility as well, and even hovercraft, but I like the water craft notion best.

Just for fun I did think on a very small scale where all you had was a small ditch where two canoes would not even have room to pass each other.  A solution for two way traffic in that case would be a robotic lift station to move one of them out of the way temporarily.

I guess the larger you made the tubes and canals, the more you would have to include (Modern), materials.  However, over time as the industrial revolution for Mars, progresses, more and more sophisticated (Modern) materials may become available in larger and larger quantities.

I think that with re-enforcements such as Bamboo Fibers and later indeed perhaps high tension fiber/cables embedded in the Pykrete, it may be possible to build much larger tubes.  But not until there would be sufficient need for facilitating that magnitude of traffic.

Even with large "Barges", the lift out of the way method might still work, as the gravitation of Mars, is .38 g.  But it might also be possible to simply have spurs where you could float one barge chain into to get out of the way of the other.

But it may be that small or large canals could be "Two Lane".

The funny thing about Ice Permafrost Tubes is that your canal can flow the glue (Ice) to the construction zone, and you can always get some regolith.

Carving a Canal Tube in an existing permafrost bed, is sort of what I have insinuated, but it would also be possible to build these up from the ground, between two berms of Regolith.  Possibly across a crater or valley.

Maybe a bit like this, sort of a Martian Permafrost Aqueduct: gQoX7A4.png

I have been concerned about ice tube drooping such as I believe happened in tunnels made in polar bases.

But for Mars the gravity is .38 g, so less problem, and you can pressurize the tubes, which would be an opposing force. 

For this reason it would be helpful to include tensile and compressive components into the Pykrete mix if possible.

I have suggested "Flat Bubble Wrap" to be glued with water to the ceiling arch area on the inside, to help keep heat away from the Pykrete.

The warm things in the tube would be ice water, so warming is not a vast problem.  In the case of brine, the water temp can be below freezing, but salts make trouble in other ways.  Not impossible, but you would have to have your methods well tested and proven.

But I have now considered that maybe that could line the canal itself, which would be strange.

Still working on the idea(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-14 17:43:12)


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#244 2022-05-15 08:50:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Mars_B4_Moon brought up a form of biomining.  I think something like it could be important in various methods for Mars.

Index» Terraformation» Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids, post #244.

Mars_B4_Moon's post is about using vascular plants, which is fine, but for cold water canals in the dark, I am more interested in microbes.

Biomining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomining

So, I am going to read that a bit.  I will make the point that what I have been attempting to produce, may often involve water that can be in contact with soil.  In that case many possibilities may exist to use microbes to extract minerals from the soils, and that is likely a further reason to make such canals.

But now a reading pause......

Well, I have seen enough to believe that this is going to be like baking where you can have recipes.  The environment in the canal will matter.
The food and Oxidizers will matter.  But I am really looking at this as something very valuable.

Quote:

Biomining is the technique of extracting metals from ores and other solid materials typically using prokaryotes, fungi or plants (phytoextraction also known as phytomining or biomining).[1] These organisms secrete different organic compounds that chelate metals from the environment and bring it back to the cell where they are typically used to coordinate electrons. It was discovered in the mid 1900s that microorganisms use metals in the cell. Some microbes can use stable metals such as iron, copper, zinc, and gold as well as unstable atoms such as uranium and thorium. Companies can now grow large chemostats of microbes that are leaching metals from their media, these vats of culture can then be transformed into many marketable metal compounds. Biomining is an environmentally friendly technique compared to typical mining. Mining releases many pollutants while the only chemicals released from biomining is any metabolites or gasses that the bacteria secrete. The same concept can be used for bioremediation models. Bacteria can be inoculated into environments contaminated with metals, oils, or other toxic compounds. The bacteria can clean the environment by absorbing these toxic compounds to create energy in the cell. Microbes can achieve things at a chemical level that could never be done by humans. Bacteria can mine for metals, clean oil spills, purify gold, and use radioactive elements for energy.

So, you might use the native materials of the tunnels or you might get lean "Ores" and put them into the canal/tunnels.  Dune materials would have specific metals, and a very large surface area.

I am sure that the Nuclear Cuddlers will like the idea.  I also like the idea of getting Copper, if possible.  And of course all of the Metals.

Food could be the materials themselves, if they are not Oxidized.  Perhaps Hydrogen, perhaps Methane, maybe Sugar?

The atmospheres could be of whatever composition fosters what you want.

While I have advocated ice water, for a desired mineral it may make sense to invest in tube/canals, that can foster warmer water.

Salinity and PH would be factors to manipulate in your recipes, and yet all the time you may be transporting goods, water, and perhaps gasses, including synthetic air or Oxygen.

It looks very good to me.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-15 09:06:42)


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#245 2022-05-15 09:28:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For the previous post I make note that electricity can also supply "Food" to microbes.

---------

WHAT TO DO WITH THE MARTIAN ICE CAPS?

I am still thinking on that but just now I am thinking of vaporizing the CO2, and yet mostly leaving the water ice alone.

I want to grow trees inside of the ice caps.
uyoPrMW.png

As it is now, for the reflective portions of the ice caps, much of the solar energy gets reflected out to space as visible and possibly even U.V. photons.  Maybe even some longer wave infrared.

Solar collectors in the cone shape of northern evergreen forests, being a mimic of nature on Earth, would collect energy and send it as electricity and possibly heat to the voids carved in the ice.

Certain vascular plants could be grown there on a periodic basis.  This would warm the ice and so eventually the heat to get to the surface, and, it is hoped, to discourage the accumulation or retention of Dry Ice.

But the heating of the voids below cannot be continuous as even if the insulation in the walls is very good, eventually the heat would build up to melt ice.  So if I warm period of a certain time and heat is done, then a cooling of equivalent effectiveness would be needed to keep stability.

In this method, we do not want to melt the water ice of the ice caps, except for that which might be mined for the voids, and also if terraforming produces more snow to the ice caps over time then that needs to be melted to water and poured off of the Ice Caps.

Many trees including even fruit trees can tolerate fairly cold winters.  Many Evergreen trees can also do that.

So, what about Bamboo?  I don't expect to keep it though a winter.  How fast can a crop be grown, for what purpose?

So far it is looking tricky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo#Bamboo_cultivation

Winter toleration: https://thehappybamboo.com/grow-bamboo- … the%20same.

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/orname … plants.htm

There would be some question of productivity.

But the objectives are in general to warm the ice caps up to the point they might melt and not go beyond that.

What the ice offers for VOIDS!!!!!!!!!!, is containment of pressure.  You would want a covering surface with some significant insulating propterties.

And of course this would seem to require artificial lighting.  A good thing about artificial lighting for plants is that within reason, you may throttle the level of light as most plants are used to clouds blocking sunlight from time to time.  This then can free up electricity for industrial purposes, on a periodic basis.

One thing I have wondered about trees and bamboo, is how long can the winters be?  Ours can likely be 9 months, sort of.  For Mars, I believe that ~12 month summer/day at the poles, and ~12 month winter/night at the poles.

However, I anticipate that if you have all of this apparatus set up on the poles it would benefit humans quite a bit to have orbital mirrors, to project sunlight to the poles when desired.  Then of course you would only put a winter into a VOID, when it was needed to prevent melting of the ice.

So, then the ice caps being thousands of feet thick, it can be speculated on just how big these VOIDS could be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

Quote:

The planet Mars has two permanent polar ice caps. During a pole's winter, it lies in continuous darkness, chilling the surface and causing the deposition of 25–30% of the atmosphere into slabs of CO2 ice (dry ice). When the poles are again exposed to sunlight, the frozen CO2 sublimes.[1] These seasonal actions transport large amounts of dust and water vapor, giving rise to Earth-like frost and large cirrus clouds.

The caps at both poles consist primarily of water ice. Frozen carbon dioxide accumulates as a comparatively thin layer about one metre thick on the north cap in the northern winter, while the south cap has a permanent dry ice cover about 8 m thick.[2] The northern polar cap has a diameter of about 1000 km during the northern Mars summer,[3] and contains about 1.6 million cubic km of ice, which if spread evenly on the cap would be 2 km thick.[4] (This compares to a volume of 2.85 million cubic km (km3) for the Greenland ice sheet.) The southern polar cap has a diameter of 350 km and a thickness of 3 km.[5] The total volume of ice in the south polar cap plus the adjacent layered deposits has also been estimated at 1.6 million cubic km.[6] Both polar caps show spiral troughs, which recent analysis of SHARAD ice penetrating radar has shown are a result of roughly perpendicular katabatic winds that spiral due to the Coriolis Effect.[7][8]

So, suppose you had a housing unit in the ice, inside of these VOIDS.  OK, sometimes summer sometimes winter.  But you might go visit another VOID that was in the opposite state of what your VOID was at any time, particularly if you indeed did have orbital mirror light projected to the ice caps.

This then should really bring things along as for the habitation of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-15 10:04:06)


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#246 2022-05-15 12:45:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing a bit with the materials of the prior post: k0IyeQA.png

It is quite simple, in order to preserve the ice shell holding the pressure you could allow for severe winter temperatures in the white bubble.

The pink bubble could have moderated temperatures, to allow for more types of Vascular plants to survive the winter.

Of course, the inner (Pink) bubble has to be made of at least a platform on stilts, and a inflated bag above that.

For the White bubble it may even be that other voids never heated would share air circulation to get rid of heat.

I am just suggesting that there can be a lot of ways to make the initial idea more functional.

Done.


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#247 2022-05-15 15:13:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I suppose now and then it does not hurt to go online, and get analog materials for what is being speculated on.  We have some of those from Antarctica.

Query: "Ice tunnels in antarctica"

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ic … HoverTitle

I see some round tunnels have ruffle-ridges.  Perhaps that gives a bit more strength.
Picture Quote:

Some Video's: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ic … &FORM=VDRE

------
Query: "3D printing ice buildings"

Also building with ice is something being explored:  http://www.marsicehouse.com/3d-printing-with-ice/
Picture Quote: Phoenix Lander: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

If these things would work at the mid latitudes, then I would think they would work at the poles.

------
Query: "buildings made of ice"

And then there are just buildings made of ice: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bu … RE&first=1

Not all of these need to be pressurized, but they might give good radiation protection, and some light to see by, if you did put things in there such as habs, labs, and machinery.

------
Query: "Martian layered polar terrain"

My thinking is that this is ice mixed with dirt layers, and I don't know how thick, but it surrounds the ice caps proper I think.
Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ma … RE&first=1

Phoenix Lander went to a place there and did uncover ice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … ed_Terrain
Quote:

Sedimentary Bedding Features of Martian Polar Layered Terrain

OK, I think it may be possible that these are rather thick, and that they may overlay sandstone.

I am guessing that at times when the poles are aligned correctly the ice caps can melt/sublimate, and water or salt water can glue "Sand" into Sandstone.

So, continuing with it ice habitation methods, you might find a layer of sandstone to dig down into as well, and this also could be a place where you might grow things under artificial lighting.

Query: "Structures carved into sandstone"
Images: "https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=st … RE&first=1"

Query: "Caves carved into sandstone"
Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ca … RE&first=1

What about Salt?  The Mediterranean Sea has salt beds under sediments as it has dried up from time to time.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sa … RE&first=1
https://www.livescience.com/42115-giant … ained.html
Quote:

Mediterranean Sea Was Once a Mile-High Salt Field
By Tia Ghose published December 19, 2013

Query: "caves in salt beds"
Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ca … RE&first=1

So, it is thought that there was an Ocean in the Northern Hemisphere, perhaps twice, and perhaps a Sea in Hellas Depression.

While it is just possible that those sea ices still exist buried, it is much more likely that there are salt deposits buried.

So, I guess my point is that in focus on some of these areas, we have possibility of tunnels and caves to carve, that are not into hard rock.

And of course the Canal Tunnels I have suggested might link up to those as well.

Any space that could be pressurized on Mars will have some potential value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-15 15:58:48)


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#248 2022-05-16 08:39:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I am satisfied that there are multiple places to do diverse economic activities on Mars, and they do favor specializations to some degree.

We have the two polar regions, which would be hardcore work to activate, but I would think we have two other less harsh regions that may also offer similar benefits per ease of utiization, but not as much to offer as per increasing atmospheric pressure.

I am thinking of Korolev Crater, and the Hellas Basin, in it's potential icy locations.

The initial notion of establishing a city by SpaceX/NASA has been in the Mid Latitude Ice Sheets, but if it turns out that the Mariner Rift Valley does indeed have a "Useful" hoard of ice in it the size of the Netherlands, then I suggest that that should be the initial location to start.

I pick Korolev Crater, and Hellas as the likely next major activity centers, as they are not as ambitious as the polar regions, and yet are suggestive of methods that will eventually be wanted for the polar regions.

Korolev Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Hellas Depression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia

It appears obvious that Korolev has plenty of ice in it.  For Hellas we may hope for buried ice.
https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … atmosphere
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03359

So, the real possibility exists for what is needed in Hellas as well.

I wanted a Northern and a Southern site, but feel that the actual poles are perhaps too challenging to start with.

I have significantly more faith that Nuclear Fission can be created from Mars materials, by using biomining.  So, that can make a contribution to making the two harsh areas Korolev and Hellas attainable.

But at this point I really want to look at mirrors in orbit, as well as mirrors on the ground to fill needs for energy.

The development of such a limited version will eventually be useful for actual polar habitation.

Unlike most terraform schemes that I have read so far, I see this as primarily an effort to project energy from orbit to specific ground reception methods, for human uses, as the first purpose but as also a terraform method.

So, then the sensible thing for me to do at this time is to examine and collect notions from others about the use of orbital mirrors for Mars.

Pause to read and collect.........OK, I think I have what I need/want:

Query: "Using orbital mirrors for Mars"


Query: "Space mirrors could create Earth-like haven on Mars"

Small Scale:
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/7965 … n-on-mars/

Quote:

FLO
By FLO,
November 17, 2006 in The Astro Lounge

Posted November 17, 2006
Mirrors in orbit around Mars could create Earth-like conditions on a small patch of the planet's surface, according to a NASA-funded study. The extra sunlight would provide warmth and solar power for human explorers, but some experts say the mirrors may be hard to deploy.

Scientists and science-fiction authors have long dreamed of turning Mars into a more Earth-like planet for future human colonists. The process, called terraforming, involves thickening Mars's atmosphere and increasing its temperature. But schemes to transform the entire planet would take centuries and would require enormous resources.

Now, Rigel Woida, an engineering student at the University of Arizona in Tucson, US, is investigating the possibility of "terraforming" just a small patch of the planet's surface by focusing sunlight on it from orbiting mirrors.

He received $9000 to study the idea from the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) in Atlanta, Georgia, US.

The concept calls for 300 reflective balloons, each 150 metres across, arranged side-by-side to create a 1.5-kilometre-wide mirror in orbit around Mars.

Source: New Scientist

Large Scale:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2019/08/t … ories.html

A "Wiki" on the topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_mir … gineering)

So, then the point is you would not be so much sitting in the dark for months of time, having to scrape for energy resources.

Prudent methods to inhabit such locations on an earlier basis would be:
-Be able to migrate some of the people to other locations when it seems productive.
-Nuclear Fission.  No reason to not seek to have it.  How much?  Well, if you can get a lot, then why not get a lot?
-Solar, well with orbital mirrors then it can work full time most of the time, (Ideally), and so you get more from your ground installations, and you get to practice for the expansion of the method to much of the planet eventually.

I have a feeling that for Korolev and perhaps also Hellas, large underground ice chambers could be used to grow trees and bamboo.
As I have indicated in previous posts, you either have to cool these down strongly periodically, simulating cold winters, or have some elaborate method for keeping the ice cold.

I also have a history about ice covered lakes.

But I am also very comfortable now with the notion of surface installations, solar illuminated using techniques of Caliban, and also a containing structure of Chevron Mirrors.

So, agricultural productivity should be very good.

However, the ice chambers could also be very good for industrial processes of sorts, as it can draw on the power grid, while the artificial lighting is cut back from time to time, and yet the trees and bamboo should be able to tolerate that.

It looks rather good to me.

And of course at that point you would have settlements at the Rift Valley, Korolev, Hellas, and in orbit as well.


Done

Last edited by Void (2022-05-16 09:24:03)


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#249 2022-05-16 09:26:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Earth to Void......

OK this topic allows for the Earth as a world.  I see that Calliban and kbd512 and (th) are working on liquid fuels.

I would not mind working on synthetic natural gas, and food.  I will give it a try.  I will not be disappointed about contributions from others.

Oh! Extract CO2 from the Oceans also.  Solar methods and cow gas possible.

vxQwSvT.png

Nothing so complex about this.  A transparent bag to grow Hydrilla in.  Hydrilla would mostly tolerate fresh water that will float in sea water.

Of course, I have not shown cable methods to allow the containment to be lifted towards the surface, or pulled down lower in the case of severe weather.

And a Bioreactor to decompose organic matter.  Organic matter could be cow feces, or some waste typically dumped into the sea by cities, or the results of the Hydrilla themselves.

You could pull CO2 out of the Ocean water into the bag, and get nutrients from the Bioreactor.

The Bioreactor could be at a water column pressure that is most suitable and could be heated to a temperature to facilitate the production of Methane from microbes.

------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

The Hydrilla can be made into a food supplement, solve world hunger to a point.

The invasive species does not do well in ocean salt water, otherwise it would have invaded the oceans by now anyway.

------

Environmentalists:

I once suggested plastic enclosures for desert greenhouses, and immediately I began reading about the huge dangers of plastics.  Strangling
sea turtles, and "Micro-Plastics" oh my!

While there are real environmentalists, and I respect them, many of the efforts behind the hype are from people who want to control technological people with words.  Their real purpose in life is to direct attention, but when they become luddites, it becomes apparent, yet again that what they really want is plantation workers so that they can live in the owners house and speak dead languages, to impress their types at parties.

I care about sea turtles as well, and in this case we do not let the big plastic bags float away without retrieving them, and they are going to be too big for sea turtles to swallow anyway.

Tell the 3rd world to quit dumping 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world plastic garbage in the Oceans.

As for Micro-Plastics, we are not going to give up the use of plastics, so they will remain a factor of life and the environment.

Microbes are evolving that will eat microplastics.  I hope they do not evolve so far that they attack the plastic bags themselves.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-18 19:55:29)


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#250 2022-05-16 11:30:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,441

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, wishing to avoid a rant about the international and local pressure groups that for various reasons interfere with industrial progressions, I will return to what I was about just prior.

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