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#26 2022-05-11 17:49:05

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

Speaking of drones...

https://news.sky.com/story/royal-mail-r … s-12610951

The report at the link above shows a propeller driven drone for delivery of UK mail to islands and other remote locations.

According to the article, the mail service is considering as many as 200 of these devices.

I can't tell if they are remotely supervised, or all automatic.

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#27 2022-05-11 19:24:53

SpaceNut
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Posts: 25,731

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

I have been thinking of a balloon ladder of blimps such as to be able to stay aloft and still bring the ocean water up to altitude to be able to seed clouds or to start the creation of them. Since we are pumping the water upward with the free energy then we should be also aerating the oceans with the air which is hotter than it should be due to having excess co2.
The sea water is misted into the air so as to create fine droplets to build the cold clouds with at a lower altitude to allow for the water to fall where we need it rather than being lofted by heat further than we need.

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#28 2022-05-11 19:38:24

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

kbd512 wrote:

tahanson43206,

CO2 concentration in air (1atm, 450ppm) is 810.004 mg/m^3.

PPM to MG/M^3 Converter

CO2 concentration in sea water (near-surface variety) is 90mg/kg.

SeaFriends.org - Dissolved gases in seawater

Sea water is 1,023.6kg/m^3.

1,023.6 * 90 = 92,124mg/m^3.

92,124mg / 810.004 = 113.7 TIMES more CO2 in a cubic meter of sea water than in a cubic meter of sea level atmosphere.

If we also include the dissolved carbonates, then there's a lot more CO2 than that.  There's also Carbonic Acid in sea water.

cloud seeding

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#29 2022-05-12 06:48:05

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

This post is a follow up to the suggestion of Calliban that it might be possible to cause water to precipitate out of clouds where it is wanted or needed.  The topic "Cloud Seeding" is about a concept for using material delivered to a water laden air mass, to encourage formation of droplets which then become heavy enough to fall out of suspension.

This topic is NOT about cloud seeding.  However, the principles of cloud seeding may be helpful in understanding the nature of the problem to be solved.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dehu … d_141.html

Air may be dehumidified - moisture or water removed - by

Cooling - condensation of vapor
Adsorption of water vapor
Absorption of water vapor
1. Cooling the air - vapor condensation
In a cooling system humidity is reduced by cooling the air below the dew point. A part of the moisture in the air is condensed and drained out.

The cooling and dehumidification process in Mollier diagram:

Mollier diagram - cooling and dehumidification

Cooling and Dehumidifying Air
2. Adsorption
In an adsorption system humidity is reduced with an adsorbent material like silica gel or activated alumina.

Adsorption is a physical process in where

moisture is condensed and held on the surface of the material
without any change of in the physical or chemical structure of the material. The adsorbent material can be reactivated by heat.

Temperature for reactivation: 160 - 170 oC
Heat required for reactivation: 4800 - 4800 kJ/kg water removed
Silica gel - SiO2
Silica gel - SiO2 - is a hard, adsorbent, crystalline substance and very porous. Voids are about 50 - 70% by volume and adsorbs water up to 40% of its own mass. The bulk density of silica gel is 480 - 720 kg/m3. The specific heat is 1.13 kJ/kgK.

Activated alumina
Activated alumina is about 90% aluminum oxide Al2O3 and very porous. Voids are about 50 - 70% by volume and adsorbs water up to 60% of its own mass. The bulk density is 800 - 870 kg/m3. The specific heat is 1.0 kJ/kgK.

3. Absorption
In an absorption system humidity is reduced with an absorbent material such as a calcium chloride solution.

Absorption involves a

change in the physical or chemical structure of the material
In general - it is not easy to reactivate the material.

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Related Topics
HVAC Systems - Heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems - design and dimensions.
Related Documents
Air - Maximum Moisture Carrying Capacity - Maximum water content in humid air vs. temperature.
Air - Moisture Holding Capacity vs. Temperature - The moisture holding capacity of air increases with temperature.
Dehumidifiers - Classification of dehumidifiers.
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#30 2022-05-12 08:29:27

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

This is a follow up to Post #29, which contains a summary of methods of collecting moisture from air known to industry, and by derivation (reduction to practice) known to science.

What is needed does not exist, and may not be possible in this Universe.

What is needed is a way to collect thermal energy from a remote location.

The only method that Ma Nature offers as an example is empty space, which accepts (what amounts to) an unlimited dump of radiation created by thermal activity.

It might be argued that we humans "collect thermal energy from a remote location" when we experience a day on Earth, with temperatures at a comfortable level thanks to solar radiation.

What I'm looking for the the context of ** this ** topic is an insight that would lead to development of practical systems to pull water out of moisture laden air masses while they are still over the ocean.

Past practice has been to try to pull moisture out of air masses over dry land.  That is what the "Cloud Seeding" topic is (presumably) about.

A technique for pulling moisture out of clouds over the ocean would (presumably) work over land as well.

If anyone who reads this is inspired to think about the problem, that might be the only consequence of the post, but it might lead to something.

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#31 2022-05-13 05:36:36

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

Following up to Post #30

Stepping back a notch ... the goal is to collect water.

Collecting thermal energy remotely is a "Good idea" but in the context of collecting water from clouds, it is a possible mechanism, and not the end goal in itself.

To re-focus the quest .... humans have experience with fog.

Fog is very similar to cloud, and it is even possible that they are identical.

We (humans) differentiate between the two by location ....

Fog is on the ground, and clouds are in the sky.

However, clouds flow across mountain peaks, and even tall buildings.

It is possible this is an example of a distinction without a difference.

In any case, fog is as good a laboratory to collect desalinated water molecules from the air, and it is a lot more convenient than working with clouds.

So! What might we learn by studying the extraction of water from fog?

The NewMars archive contains reports of experiments with collecting water from air near the ground.

The objective toward which i am heading is the ability to load a drone with fresh water by flying through a cloud.

If anyone has a bit of time, and this topic is of interest, please look for examples of actual field experiments which are able to persuade water molecules floating along in fog to drop out and collect in a basin below the apparatus.

I am wondering if electric charge makes a difference?

I am wondering of a fluctuating current makes a difference?

If a metal grid is placed in the path of the water laden air, does grid size make a difference?

Does the size of the wires make a difference?

Does the material of the wires make a difference?

We ** know ** that the temperature of the grid makes a difference!  That is how air conditioners work!

When moisture laden air is passed through a cold radiator, water collects on the radiator fins and falls to the collection tray, and then flows on to the disposal port.

A drone would (probably) not have energy to spare to cool radiator fins to collect water from clouds.

Is there an alternative mechanism to persuade water molecules to leave the comfort of their neighbors and fall into the collection tray?

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#32 2022-05-13 06:52:15

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

This is a follow up to discussion of drone design ... drones under consideration to harvest water from clouds would (presumably) be solar powered with onboard batteries to help with null power periods.

However, these drones need NOT be limited to solar power.

For a number of decades (well over a century if you count Marconi's invention) humans have been transmitting power over long distances using electromagnetic waves. In recent decades, power levels have been improved, using microwaves.

Accordingly, water harvesting drones could be fitted with solar cells on top of wings and fuselage, and microwave collection antenna on (in) under surfaces.

Drones could even be "smart" enough to request targeted energy delivery by microwave beam when necessary.

Note: This is an example of "open source" invention.  It should NOT be possible for anyone to patent ideas or procedures developed here in the NewMars forum, since everything is posted publicly.

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#33 2022-05-13 08:07:01

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

The technologies under discussion in this topic ** should ** lead to development of a multi-billion dollar (USD) business (or set of businesses).

To put everything together:

1) Customers who need potable water and are willing to pay at least $2.50 per ton (This is Arizona proposal rate for desalinated sea water from Mexico)
2) Customers at the high end who are willing to pay Walmart rate of $830 per ton
3) Drones able to fly long distances using solar power (with microwave from ground if needed) to carry water from A to B
4) Drones are able to collect water from the air using technology to be determined
5) Satellite communications to manage millions of drones
6) Computer control able to manage millions of drones
7) Computer mediation of financial flows, to insure customers pay for deliveries, and all suppliers are paid, and profits flow to stock holders

***
If I've missed anything important, I'd appreciate feedback.

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#34 2022-05-13 19:41:14

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

If you look at temperature you can see why you are not getting any rain.

phases.gif

off the shelf devices that could depending on the size of the drone along with the tanks for storage until you land make use of a variety of them to get water from air.

https://interestingengineering.com/ever … er-devices

Creating Drinking Water from Air

https://rainmakerww.com/technology-air-to-water/

https://www.airowater.com/technology

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#35 2022-05-13 20:39:50

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re post #34 .... thank you for finding and posting multiple links to related articles! 

Question for you, regarding the diagram shown in Post #34 ... where does fog/cloud reside in that diagram?  I assume it's in the vapor section, but I'm not sure.

I logged in just now to drop off a link and snippet about research on how plants collect water from fog.

https://www.savetheredwoods.org/grant/f … st-plants/

This is a follow up on discovery of a hint that Redwood trees may have "specialized" structures that collect water.

The research described in the article below is about discovery of a number of plants that collect water and absorb it through the membranes of the leaves.  That is NOT what the hint implied, but it is in the ballpark.

Understanding the Physiological Consequences of Fog for Redwood Forest Plants

by Save the Redwoods League on July 28, 2007
Emily Limm found that western sword fern absorbed the most moisture from fog. Photo by Emily Burns
Emily Limm found that western sword fern absorbed the most moisture from fog. Photo by Emily Burns
Coast redwood forests depend on fog to survive the nearly rainless summers of California’s Mediterranean climate. It was once thought that redwoods captured this moisture through their roots. But a 2004 Save the Redwoods League-funded study proved that redwoods suck up water through their leaves as well.  Intrigued by that result, Emily Burns, former University of California, Berkeley, doctoral student, set out to discover whether other plants in the redwood ecosystem were equally adept at “foliar uptake.”

In 2007, also funded by Save the Redwoods League, Limm studied 10 dominant plants in the coast redwood ecosystem, including ferns, shrubs and broadleaf and coniferous trees. She found that 8 of the 10 were able to take in water through their leaves. Limm was surprised by that result. “I didn’t think that foliar uptake was going to be unique to redwoods,” she said. “But I had no idea it would be so common.”

Limm found that western sword fern (Polystichum munitum) absorbed the most moisture from fog, but salal (Gualtheria shallon), madrone (Arbutus menziesii), tanoak (Notholithocarpus densiflorus), Douglas fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii), California huckleberry (Vaccinium ovatum), California polypody (Polypodium californicum), and, of course, redwood, were good at foliar uptake, too. By coating leaves with water, fog also helped these species conserve moisture that might have been lost through transpiration, the process of giving off water vapor through the plants’ surface pores.

Only two species in the study, California bay (Umbellularia californica) and redwood sorrel (Oxalis oregana), failed the foliar uptake test.  Limm is not sure why, but she suspects the surfaces of their leaves are different. “Water easily rolls off of it,” she said.

Now the Director of Science for Save the Redwoods League, Limm said the study may prove useful in predicting how these plants may respond to climate change.

“As long as these plants have access to fog water, they will be able to stay hydrated,” she said. On the other hand, “Fewer fog events in the summer could have a huge effect.”

Explore More Research Grants
Juvenile coho salmon. Photo by Roger Tabor, USFWS
Winter habitat crucial for coho salmon, spring for Chinook
The coho salmon population in Del Norte County’s Mill Creek depends heavily on the quantity and quality of winter habitat for survival, according to a study by The Rowdy Creek Fish Hatchery and a team of fisheries biologists. Learn more about this research.

PreviousNext
Grant Details
Grant Applicant Organization: Department of Integrative Biology (UC Berkeley)

Grantee: Todd Dawson and Emily Burns

Amount: $15,000

Date: 2007

Web: Project Site / More Information

Downloads: Documents and Reports

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#36 2022-05-13 20:50:03

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut .... this is a follow up on just (one) of the multiple links you found and posted in  #34...

This quote is about a desert beetle, which has evolved a bumpy surface to it's carapace that entices water molecules to collect on it's surface.

Scientists studying this topography discovered that it is most efficient when the water is consumed immediately, which would be the case for a drone flying through a cloud to collect water.

1. Beetle-power might be the secret
water from air beetle power
Source: Solvin Zanko/Minden Pictures
Interestingly, like many things humans invent, nature has usually beaten us to it. For example, when it comes to extracting water from the air, the desert beetle Stenocara gracilipes has a rudimentary but effective mechanism for achieving this seemingly impossible task.

These little creatures live in one of the driest and most inhospitable places on Earth — the Namib Desert. In response, they have evolved a strategy to extract water from the air through an activity called "fog basking" — a behavior of the beetle whereby it leans its bumpy body into the wind, letting water droplets condense from the fog onto its body.

These droplets then drip down the beetles' wing case and are directed to its mouth. This strategy is incredibly efficient, and something that has grabbed the interest of scientists trying to find useful methods of providing clean water for water-stressed communities around the world.

By studying the beetle's anatomy in minute detail, a team of scientists have attempted to replicate its abdomen texture using 3D printing. They discovered the smaller the bumps, and the larger the number of them, the better the surface was at trapping moisture — in short, a larger surface area.

But this was only part of the story. The team discovered that the surface works best when any condensed water is rapidly drained away — which is exactly the point of the process from the beetle's point of view.

If this technique can be further refined and improved — and scaled up, it could, in theory, be used to provide a highly efficient passive method of providing clean water for some water-scarce places around the world.

This might be an incentive to assemble the 3D printer I bought last year.

If a surface exists that has the capability of trapping water molecules while allowing oxygen and nitrogen molecules to pass by, then a set of them might be deployed to collect water from a cloud during transit by a drone designed for the purpose.

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#37 2022-05-13 21:04:09

tahanson43206
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Posts: 10,438

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re post #34

Here is another snippet from one of the links you found ....

https://interestingengineering.com/ever … er-devices

Yet another interesting AWG is a self-refilling water bottle called the Fontus Airo. Ideal for people who love nothing more than the great outdoors, these bottles can refill themselves in less than an hour.

The bottles were developed by an Austrian industrial engineer called Kristof Retezár, to provide a simple method to supply safe water to water-scare regions of the world. Unlike some other solutions on this list, the technology behind the bottles is relatively simple, and, most importantly, portable.

The bottle works by allowing humid air to enter the device, whereby the air is exposed to what is termed hydrophobic "teeth". Resembling toothbrush bristles, these "teeth" force water vapor to condense out of the air to form water droplets ready for collection.

Another example of an active AWG, the power is provided by a small solar-panel rechargeable battery integrated into the device. According to its creator, the bottle is most efficient between 86 degrees Fahrenheit (30 degrees Celsius) and 104 degrees Fahrenheit (50 degrees Celsius) and between 80 and 90% humidity.

Over the course of an hour, Fontus can produce roughly 0.5 quarts (roughly 1/2 a liter) of water. Since its development, the product has been brought to market for cyclists and ramblers alike.

And that, water-from-air enthusiasts, is your lot for today. Far from the preserve of sci-fi films, like Star Wars, the technology to literally draw water from the air is a very real, and very promising field of technology for helping provide life-giving water to many parts of the world.

If warnings of an impending water crisis are well-founded, then technologies like the ones described above may prove critical to the survival of many millions of people around the world.

This system seems particularly interesting for a drone that would pass through a cloud to collect a payload of fresh, desalinated, potable water.

However, in a cloud, water droplets are already present, so a collection system would not need to "form water droplets". What a flying system would need to do is to rapidly assemble the fine droplets of fog or cloud into larger drops that can be directed to a repository.

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#38 2022-05-13 21:17:08

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut .... the article at the link below is just a concept report.... there is nothing beyond the artist rendering.

However, it ** does ** show the direction this topic is heading ...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/meet-fa … 22036.html

Robb Report
Meet the Falcon Solar, the Sun-Powered Airplane Concept That Looks Like Something Out of a Marvel Flick
Michael Verdon
Thu, May 12, 2022, 10:00 AM

The Falcon Solar looks like a superhero’s jet, running exclusively on solar power and shaped like the bird of prey it’s named after. Despite having no visible propulsion system for takeoff, and no flaps or ailerons in the wings for lift or turning, could this experimental design inspire manufacturers to move forward with aircraft powered by the sun? It will take a lot more tech to get there.

“We want to bring a new perspective to solar sustainable aviation,” Laszlo Nemeth, whose Budapest-based firm Lasko Design created the concept, told Robb Report. “I believe that modern technology is sufficiently advanced to allow us to fly on solar power. This could be a reality before self-driving cars.”

More from Robb Report

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#39 2022-05-14 06:54:11

tahanson43206
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Posts: 10,438

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re Post #34

That post contains links to a mine full of nuggets....

One of the ideas that seems to have reached the top of concepts floating in my mind (over night) is the one that featured a gel that collected water in a matrix and then released it later with input of a modest amount of energy.

The management of flight while collecting water in this manner is a challenge for the drone designer.

The collection of water from a moisture laden air mass is going to produce drag, so the drone will come out of flight through a cloud both heavier and slower than when it entered.  It must recover energy quickly and then add energy to begin the flight to the destination.

Yesterday, the local sky was fulled with cumulus clouds, brightly lit by the Sun in a blue background.  I imagined flocks of water gathering drones diving into those clouds and harvesting clean, potable, desalinated sea water just waiting to be harvested.

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#40 2022-05-14 16:11:04

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

Is solar you would fly at the top where the suns energy could still land on panels to produce sufficient power as it scooped up the vapor moisture and cool it to water droplets into water that would be brought back to the storage processing location.
Depending on flight speed and opening orifice one would need to remove heat from that incoming air such as the sabre cooling of oxygen does but we do not need it that cold. That cooling would conde4nse the water in the air as it enters into the removal system.

Rather than expending energy to gather with winged planes why not use the balloon concepts of lift and such to do the powered maneuvering as well.

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#41 2022-05-14 16:41:51

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re #40

Thank you for continuing to think about the physics of this quest!  What this topic is attempting has not been done by humans before, so the chances of success are infinitesimal.  However, that ** also ** means the field is open for anyone (or a group) that has the qualities needed to even think about it, let alone actually ** do ** it.

For that reason, I'm picking up on your suggestion of a balloon ... It is possible you are thinking of Calliban's suggestion of a hydrogen balloon recently.  I no longer remember which topic contained that suggestion, but I ** do ** remember noting the suggestion and offering encouragement to pursue it further.

Your suggestion of using energy to cool the water is certainly interesting, and it may turn out to be the key to success.

The article about the shell/carapace of the beetle that researchers discovered is able to collect water out of thin desert air provided encouragement to think that the bumpy surface of the carapace conferred an evolutionary advantage to the beetles who inherited it.

Please note that these beetles ** do NOT ** use artificial cooling to collect water.

The curious shape of the bumps on the carapace seems to entice water molecules to collect, and to form droplets which then flow down to the mouth of the beetle.

While I do not know any more about the details than does the beetle, I ** do ** have the discovery by those patient scientists to work with.

Ma Nature ** seems ** to be showing there ** is ** a way to collect water without expending energy, if the conditions are right.

A body of air laden with moisture would ** seem ** to be a good place to look for a gift of clean, potable, desalinated sea water.

***
Something your post (#40) mentions is removing heat from the incoming air.

A recent post about hurricanes includes a suggestion that when water condenses it releases heat, which provides fuel for growth of the hurricane.

In other words (if I understand the analysis correctly) Ma Nature has figured out how to deliver water vapor to a hurricane, so that the hurricane can feed on the energy by condensing the water vapor.

Since we humans value the condensed water (as opposed to the vapor) it seems to me Ma Nature is hinting that we might be able to ** gain ** energy if we can just duplicate Her procedure (whatever it might be).

In other words, taking your post as a cue, instead of spending energy to cool water, we might be able to release energy by learning how Ma Nature does the trick.

If a hurricane can power itself by condensing water vapor into rain, perhaps we humans can power our drones by learning how to do the same thing.

In ** that ** case, the drone would come out of the cloud, not only full of potable water, but re-charged and ready to fly from the Gulf of Mexico to Phoenix, or wherever our customer lives.

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#42 2022-05-14 16:55:37

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

The given reason for hurricane spin is Coriolis force results from Earth’s rotation, and it affects how objects move on its surface. Earth’s rotation is faster near the equator, and the Coriolis force is stronger. It uses the heat and moisture to sustain and pick up speed and power.

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#43 2022-05-15 09:50:51

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

The purpose of this topic is to collect knowledge/insight/tips for gathering fresh, potable desalinated sea water and delivering it to where it is needed.

While the topic started out with the simple proposition to collect already landed fresh water, and to carry it by air to where it is needed, the topic has expanded to consider collecting fresh, potable desalinated sea water while it is still in the air, and before it is delivered to the land by natural forces.

The article at the link below is about research into the use of screens (of various sizes) to collect water from fog.

The concept in work in this topic is to fly winged aircraft (drones under satellite control) through clouds to collect water for delivery to customers.

https://news.mit.edu/2014/harvesting-fresh-water-fog

Harvesting fresh water from fog

Professor Gareth McKinley co-leads research to optimize fog harvesting technology.

Watch Video

John Freidah | Department of Mechanical Engineering
Publication Date:May 13, 2014
PRESS INQUIRIES
Screenshot from the video, "Harvesting Fresh Water from Fog"

Caption:Screenshot from the video, "Harvesting Fresh Water from Fog"

Researchers at MIT's School of Engineering, working with colleagues at the Pontificial University of Chile in Santiago, are harvesting potable water from the coastal fog that forms on the edge of one of the driest regions on Earth.

Using a simple system of suspended mesh structures, placed on hilltops in areas with persistent fog and prevailing westerly winds, local Chilean communities collect fog water for drinking and agricultural use.

Fog-collecting technology is still in its infancy. But lab experiments have shown that variations in the mesh spacing, as well as the size and the wettability of the mesh fibers, all affect the volume of water that can be collected each day. Through engineering analysis and optimization of the mesh geometry and its surface chemistry, the team — which includes MIT professor of mechanical engineering Gareth McKinley and MIT professor of chemical engineering Robert Cohen — has been able to increase the fog-collecting efficiency of existing designs by 500 percent.

The technology holds great promise as a locally deployable and scalable alternative to other energy-intensive desalination technologies. Mesh-based fog harvesters are passive, inexpensive to fabricate, with almost no operating costs, and can be deployed in similar environments throughout the world.

Video thumbnailPlay video
Researchers at MIT's School of Engineering, working with colleagues at the Pontificial University of Chile in Santiago, are harvesting potable water from the coastal fog that forms on the edge of one of the driest regions on Earth.
(Video funded by MIT International Science and Technology Initiatives.)

PRESS MENTIONS
Boston Globe
In a piece for The Boston Globe, Kevin Hartnett writes that MIT researchers have developed a new technique for transforming fog into drinking water.

Full story via Boston Globe →
RELATED LINKS
Department of Mechanical Engineering
MIT International Science and Technology Initiatives
RELATED TOPICS
Mechanical engineeringWaterMISTI

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#44 2022-05-15 10:06:07

tahanson43206
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Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

As a follow up:

For: Mr. John Freidah

MIT Department of Mechanical Engineering

From: tahanson43206, Moderator

NewMars.com/forums (p/o Mars Society)

Request: Please forward this inquiry to the folks who might be interested and have the time to assist

Reference: the 2014 report on study of collection of water from fog

https://news.mit.edu/2014/harvesting-fresh-water-fog

***

Members of the Mars Society (and of the NewMars forum in particular) are interested in collection of water for Mars settlers.

Discussions have revealed a possible point of intersection with the needs of Earth citizens.

The proposal under consideration is use of intelligent, satellite controlled winged drones to harvest water from clouds and deliver it to where it is needed.

With reference to the study done by MIT and collaborators in Chile:

Is there a screen configuration that would perform well while an aircraft is passing through a cloud, to gather water while NOT introducing excessive drag?

In all existing studies (that I know about) fog passes slowly across collection systems.

In the proposed airborne collection system, the rate of travel is sufficient to maintain flight of a winged vehicle.

While the email address which originates this inquiry is available, please consider reply to:

NewMarsMember@gmail.com  This is an email address tended by the NewMars forum, and it is visited each Earth day.

Thanks!

tahanson43206

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#45 2022-05-17 21:14:30

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,731

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

The goes back to using less energy to make the cloud so that it might rain The Future of Skyscrapers Could Include Cloud-Making Towers and Tsunami-Stopping Designs

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#46 2022-05-17 21:36:03

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,438

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re #45

Thanks for the link to the story about cloud making towers!  I'm on an older computer at the moment, but will open the link tomorrow.

Redwood trees are 'tall' structures that have evolved structures to collect water from fog.  I'll be interested to see what the building designers are thinking about.

***
I attended the monthly meeting of the local Linux User Group this evening (online as usual for this group).  During a break between Linux topics, someone mentioned clouds in their area, and I asked for permission to introduce an off-topic question ... no one had any insight into how to collect water from clouds. That is not surprising.  Almost no one living on Earth today has a clue about how to achieve that.  However, the group ** did ** agree to thinking about the question, so perhaps at next month's meeting someone will have a suggestion.

NewMars forum is supported by some of the most creative thinkers on the planet, and so far we've not found a solution.  That should not be a surprise. 

We ** do ** see hints in the Internet of natural ways to collect water from slow moving fog, and of course, we know about "cloud seeding". There is an entire topic dedicated to that activity.

** This ** topic is NOT about cloud seeding, admirable as that technology may be.

** This ** topic is about designing, building and operating a flying machine that is satellite controlled and able to collect a quantity of fresh, desalinated potable water from clouds, and able to deliver that water to a customer location a great distance away.

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#47 2022-05-18 07:03:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,731

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

There are many reasons for what is a practical which has not been done starting with its not easy, its to complex, to costly ect of course not in my back yard comes to mind for somethings

There is no one size fits all or most as we have seen with the slue of automobiles and trucks we chose to buy.

No matter what we need to moisture at a height above the ground.

How High In the Sky Are Clouds?

High clouds have base heights of 3,000 to 7,600 meters (10,000 to 25,000 ft) in polar regions, 5,000 to 12,200 meters (16,500 to 40,000 ft) in temperate regions, and 6,100 to 18,300 meters (20,000 to 60,000 ft) in the tropical region

So using local mountains prior to Arizona to spray water into would be possible.

Understanding the Various Temperatures of Rain Drops

On average, raindrops have temperatures somewhere between 32 F (0 C) and 80 F (27 C). Whether a raindrop is closer to the cold or warm end of that range depends on a number of things including what temperature it starts at high up in the clouds and what the air temperatures are in the upper atmosphere where those clouds are floating.

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#48 2022-05-18 10:32:48

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,438

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

For SpaceNut re #47

Thank you for your continued support of and contributions to this topic!

The information about temperature of rain drops seems particularly helpful.

During last night's Zoom meeting of the local Linux group, one of the members pointed out that precipitation can show up as snow as well as rain.  That would be consistent with your quotation, showing rain as above freezing.

However, for completeness, a study of precipitation from clouds might extend below freezing  as well as above.

***
The purpose of this topic is to confront the challenges we (humans) face, and to resolutely solve each one in turn.

The ultimate payoff will be our (humans) ability to pull fresh, desalinated potable sea water out of clouds where Ma Nature is carrying it, and to deliver it to where we (human customers) want it!

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#49 2022-05-28 06:13:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,438

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ... i'm attending a meeting online so will post this here ... it can go multiple places...

I ** think ** this might be a way for you to harvest potable water from your ground water supply .... it might also work for the cloud harvester drone!

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/inc … 00537.html

Incredible new gel film transforms air into drinking water
Joshua Hawkins
Wed, May 25, 2022, 6:00 PM

Researchers at the University of Texas at Austin have created a water harvesting gel capable of pulling buckets of water out of thin air. What makes this gel so intriguing, and possibly revolutionary, is its low cost and easy creation process.


This new water harvesting gel can literally pull water from thin air

How it looks from the side

The water harvesting gel is so cheap to make thanks to its two primary ingredients. The first, cellulose, comes from the cell walls of plants. As such, it’s widely available and easy to obtain. The second ingredient, konjac gum, is a food additive that is widely used throughout the world.

The two ingredients combine together to make the gel film that is responsible for absorbing water from the air. Once absorbed, too, the gel can easily release it without requiring much energy to do so. But how does it work?

According to the paper the researchers published in Nature Communications, the porous structure of the gun attracts the water in the air around it. It then condenses inside the gel, storing it. To release it, though, all you need to do is apply gentle heat to the cellulose. When met with gentle heat, the cellulose turns hydrophobic and releases the captured water. This allows the water harvesting gel to do its job.

During tests, the water harvesting gel was able to absorb 13 liters (3.4 gallons) of water per day in an area with a humidity of 30 percent. Even when the humidity dropped to 15 percent, the gel produced more than 6 liters (1.6 gallons) a day. The researchers also believe they can improve the efficiency of the gel, which would make it able to absorb even more water from the air around it.

Making the gel
how researchers made water harvesting gel

How it works is impressive. But the most impressive thing about this cheap water harvesting gel, is that it’s easy to make, too.

The researchers say that all you need to do to make the gel is mix the basic ingredients together. Once mixed, you pour the ingredients into a mold and it has to set for two minutes. From there, they freeze-dried the product and peeled it out of the mold.

At that point, the gel is ready to get to work. Plus, you can scale it easily and shape it any way you want.

We’ve seen similar water harvesters that draw water from the air in the past. But, because it’s so easily producible at a low cost, this water harvesting gel could be a revolutionary way to address the water scarcity plaguing our planet.

Click here to read the full article.

See the original version of this article on BGR.com

Here's a link to the full article: https://bgr.com/science/incredible-new- … ing-water/

Harvesting by a drone might involve riding thermals to the top of a cloud while empty, and then diving into the cloud to collect water molecules in a payload bay filled with gel, until the drone is filled to capacity. At that point the drone would exit the cloud and use solar energy and thermals, in addition to movements of the atmosphere itself to reach it's customer destination.

It appears that modest heating of the gel can release the collected water at the destination.

<todo item>: Contact researchers to ask if the gel can work for this application

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#50 2022-05-28 16:00:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,731

Re: Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation

There must be a couple of these gels that operate with different water to heat bands for absorption and dehydrating.

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