Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-04-10 10:06:45

Well, one thing is likely. Before you made a denser atmosphere you would first make the thin one.

I see your reason to "Prune" what I was saying.

Robot slaves is an interesting concept. It may be that robots would be only as smart as a bee, and also perhaps part of a hive mind. Humans might participate in that. The question is, are bees' slaves? Granted they are specialized for tasks and must perform them to a minimum of quality and quantity for the bee line's genetics to continue in time to exist.

Can a robot be happy? Or not care at all? I don't think we know yet.

Some people want to make AI super intelligent, so that machine can solve problems, even then, unless it is programed to care, would it care if it existed or not? Would it care if it worked or not?

We often attribute human motivations to such proposed devices. But if they are super intelligent, might they bypass any human motivations we might try to incorporate into them?

I am old enough that a Robot Rebellion is almost a joke to me. They might save me from my end being in a nursing home. Anyway, I have almost no influence on the matter and so am along for the ride.

There could be a concern about the loss of Helium 3 from the Moon with the production of an atmosphere. Of course at first it would likely be present in the atmosphere to collect, until it dissipated into space.

That and a great number of issues will influence what eventually happens with humans and the solar system. It is rather complex, so I don't think we can predict things other than possibilities.

A thicker atmosphere for the Moon, might be done over time, but I am not sure that it has sufficient value to justify it.
So, we may be in agreement for that.

I agree that Mass Drivers, and perhaps tethers are of value. Also standard chemical rocket propulsions, and also laser driven rockets, possibly with Oxygen as the propellant, lasers as the energy.

If Moon materials were lifted to orbits, then up to 45% of the mass could be Oxygen. So, in many cases it might be desirable to remove the Oxygen, and other excess materials, and do things with them on the Moon itself. So, I think it is more likely to have modular construction on the Moon than to lift Lunar raw materials to orbit.

In early days Oxygen would likely be held in containers. But then could the Moon become a container for Oxygen?
Using it's gravity and adding a magnetic net field?

I have understood that Mass Drivers and Skyhooks could work well for Mars with it's current atmosphere, so we could consider an atmosphere up to that value as a notion, not a requirement. Could such an atmosphere have an Ozone layer? Would you want one? Perhaps a much thinner atmosphere would do for that anyway???

Keeping in mind that a global magnetic field for the Moon can facilitate an orbital propulsion method(s), that use the Moon itself as propellant mass, much like mass drivers would. For those unfamiliar with this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

And then if you have a thin Oxygen atmosphere, with an Ozone layer, you may pump that Oxygen into containers, and liquify it very easily at Lunar dark temperatures, and use that for Laser propulsion and chemical propulsion methods.

And such an atmosphere and magnetic field might make it possible to recycle rocket fuels such as Hydrogen and Carbon exhaust items. If you have an Ozone layer, and fire your chemical rocket below it, it is likely that the output can be retained with hopes that the Hydrogen will combine with Oxygen, and then those chemical products to freeze out at the Moons poles.

An atmosphere ~~~thick as that of Mars, could be used for aero braking. It would be significantly deeper to achieve that surface pressure. I am not sure the value of that.

The loss of Hydrogen and Helium would be true, but some would be coming from the sun all the time to be caught in the magnetic net.

I am inclined to "Try The Moon". That is it may be that we can fabricate methods to deal with the environment. We do not know yet, but Synthetic Gravity Machines in and on the surface???

Medical methods to tune the body? In other words finding a way to induce the body to build an Earth rated body in spite of existing in a lower gravity field. Eventually that might happen. So, the idea of orbital spinning worlds may be less attractive, at least in proximity of the Moon itself.

That's enough for now.

Thanks,

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-10 10:46:44)

Void · 2022-04-12 10:00:09

I kind of somewhat converge with some of the Angry Astronauts thinking.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3

I do start to wonder about the relative workload of providing sufficient propellants for a 1000 ship Mars convoy or accessing the Moon. I realize that at first access to Mars will involve far less ships.

It is not my mission to throw cold water on the notion of the Mars effort.

Instead, it is to acknowledge the obvious, that we are not going to ignore the Moon. We might as well try to get as much "Milage" from the Moon effort as we can do while keeping other items in our portfolio in progress.

I make note that some numbers used by Angry, are not exactly the same as my own, but that is not very important. Oxygen could come from the Moon, and it is possible that geosynchronous orbit may be a good place to have refilling of propellants. I think the case for Carbon from the Moon or asteroids will be improving over time, but at this time, we would start with having it from the Earth.

I think that it would be good to consider incorporating other methods of propulsion for propellant shiping, than combustion. Electric is a possible option maybe even with Argon.

Magnetic bubbles might also work for shipping Oxygen from the Moon.

I also am interested in methods where you would expel Oxygen itself for changing orbits. Laser Thermal might be OK.

It might also be possible to assist the transfer of LOX to LEO, by using aero burn methods into the Earth's atmosphere.

I think we should seriously consider the Moon for a source of Oxygen and built hardware for expanding into the solar system.

Mars can happen also, but ignoring the Moon at this point would simply be stupid.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-12 10:14:24)

Void · 2022-04-12 18:23:33

This is looking sort of good:

Just have a think:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … M%3DHDRSC3

Warming up by cooling down your solar panels. "Engineering with Rosie".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJixtZdkU0

So, I am going to look at these again and then comment.

------

Well, it looks good. The life extension of the solar panels has to be a valuable feature. The idea that it is being tried in different ways in both Australia, and Scandanavia, suggests that to some degree variations of it will make it somewhat universal.

We often are presented with the notion that these things cannot be solved with technology, and therefore pollical powers are needed in order to ration what the commoners may have. I think that that is likely to prove incorrect. The solutions will be more from people who have vision and less from people who make a living talking and controlling other people.

Good News.

Things like this are likely to be important on other worlds. For the Moon, the potential is there, but adaptation is needed.

For Mars, I can see that a primary method could be to collect the heat into a hot water tank inside of an ice covered reservoir. Then you have at least two different temperature fluids. The hot water tank, and the cold water reservoir.

Even then, though it is my hope that somehow the solar panels will also be able to incorporate anti-solar cell technology so that heat rejected to the sky can generate electricity, especially when it is dark and cold.

Quote a bit of innovation will be required, but the results are likely to be rewarding.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-12 19:07:29)

Void · 2022-04-13 11:38:47

For the systems just mentioned in the last post, there can be "Local" and "Household" energy storage, per electricity, I presume. I am thinking Tesla battery products, and the recently unveiled "Iron/Air batteries. But there may be something else comming.

Query: "A new heat engine with no moving parts is as efficient as a steam turbine". (I discovered the article on "phys.org").
Result: https://www.bing.com/search?q=A+new+hea … 7562309cf8

Phys.org version: https://techxplore.com/news/2022-04-eff … rbine.html

I am guessing that it is years off in implementation, but it certainly is interesting.

I like the idea that at some point we can have hopes of cracking this alternative energy thing. In reality I am not a zero burn person. I feel that we can burn fossil fuels if we have them, as long as we soak excess CO2 into the Oceans.

And I feel that we can do the CO2>Oceans>Photosynthesis, if we build large hot water reservoirs in the Oceans. The waste heat and heat leakage would draw nutrient rich waters to the surface where there would be useful photons.

Done correctly this also could become a source of fertilizers for land farming, eventually.

I have been wondering if we could make our own "Lava Tubes". In conjunction with that I have been thinking of the heat engine mentioned in the attached reference.

If my case of course I want to melt caves into bedrock for both the Moon and perhaps Mars as well.

This again of course
From post #122:
I do have this:

I see it as a source of Metals, and Oxygen, maybe Carbon and a few other things??? A thermal energy storage system.

These would not exist in isolation, but would be connected to existing lava tubes, and also Boring Company tubes. As I have said a melt magnitude like that would be just fine for Lunar nights, and for Martian Winters/Dust Storms.

But of course for both worlds, this would be very advanced.

And the techniques would transfer to worlds like Mercury.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-15 20:43:48)

Void · 2022-04-15 20:30:39

I am doing this post as an extension of a post in "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Excavation without blasting on Earth or Mars", post #11:

I feel that my posting further at that location may interfere with good process in that topic. But as it happens, I have already been considering the methods to either melt or dissolve rock to create caverns, and to obtain Oxygen and Metals, and slag objects. This process may very well also involve the storage of energy.

First of all, don't expect a well discovered process. I have the notion of a cave, and molten rock in the floor of it. Then the extraction of Oxygen and other volatile materials, should they be present. Further, it would be desirable to extract certain metals from the fluid rock. In the end however also, a slag would be a result as it might be practical to totally extract all useful substances, so the leftovers perhaps could be built into objects of some use, it would be hoped.

I have considered electricity as a method to input heat, or possibly an AC magnetic field, or possibly lasers. Considerable work would be needed to make any of this work, and there is no certainty that they will be possible or practical.

It is because the Moon is rather dry, and is proximate to the Earth, and has considerable Oxygen that the Moon can be a possible model for doing this. But Mars and Earth maybe someday as well.

I have repeatedly posted this simple diagram.
From post #122:
I do have this:

What I have in mind to keep the molten rock under control is vacuum and reflectance.

I have kept the diagram simple, but I have shown a void that expands as you go down. It does not have to do that. Anyway, at least the floor above the molten rock would be reflective and the void that has the molten rock in it would be under a greater partial vacuum.
This would inhibit convection of gasses in that chamber. Reflection from the floor would also help to keep the heat in. Of course, the floors proximate to the molten rock have to be made of a material that can handle the temperatures.

I presume that some form of electrolysis has to be involved, to extract Oxygen, but I suppose Hydrogen or Carbon could be cycled through it as well. But the British and Europeans have done some work on salt baths for that. Also, there are higher temperature devices that use actual melted rock.

While it may seem an enormous heating burden, the hot rock all around would actually be a thermal reservoir that you could draw on when you needed to, such as Lunar night times.

That's a start.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-15 20:52:01)

Void · 2022-04-16 06:15:28

"Digging" with "Lava", down under, may supplement things created underground by other means.

Prior to that, I think that in setting up a presence on the Moon, an easier task might be "Lava ponds/lakes". The actual method might not involve properly melted rock, but dissolved rock in salts, as has been pioneered by the British/Europeans.

This then: https://www.wtsp.com/article/tech/scien … e%20oxygen.
Quote:

Scientists say they found a way to make oxygen out of Moon dust
The technological breakthrough could help astronauts make breathable air on the Moon and even rocket fuel.

"Molten Salt Electrolysis".

An alternative would be a higher temperature process to actually melt rock.

In the "Ponds and Lakes" process, likely broken regolith would be utilized as it would be easier to dissolve, having more surface area. I don't know, if larger rock would need to be ground down. Probably not at first. As an added benefit, this process might clean significant parts of the Moon, so that dust problems would be reduced, and rocket landing would be made less of a problem. Dust would be processed, rocks perhaps piled up out of the way. Then landing pads put in place. Perhaps often, these would be just over the horizon, from Earth view, so that people will have less to complain about. But in some places, smaller "Cleaned Zones". Some dust does levitate, so of course one cleaning is not eternal in results.

Some space nerds love to use the word "Dome". It makes good space art, and the word conveys the idea of a structure without need for details. But fine, this is a case where "Dome might serve well.

So, a liquid rock pool, of salt or basalt, could be covered by a "Dome(s)". I made that plural, as ideally you would have the equivalent of 7 layers in such a dome, with vacuum between each layer. This then creating a thermos bottle effect to hold in heat. Of course the higher the temperature of the "Pond/Lake", the greater the challenge for the materials of the "Dome(s)".

The thermal losses may be low, as the dome is after all a "Thermos Bottle", and the solid hot rock beneath would simply be thermal storage. Thermal leakage around the edges should not be that bad, but you could also put insulation around those places again. For instance, how well would "Vacuum Fiberglass" work? Pretty well, I am thinking.

While it only makes sense to start at the poles of the Moon due to various mercies offered at those locations, this device would be very useful for locations that are perhaps like the equator, where the day/night cycle is severe for energy and thermal variations.

Obviously a hot "Pond/Lake" of molten materials would help you stay warm at night. Also it should be very possible to run some type of heat engine from it. I would prefer some scheme like anti-solar cells for that but there is no dogma for it.

As for things like water and Carbon and Nitrogen, those likely have to be imported to locations from sources. The poles, NEO's? But for water, there is some notion that water molecules and Hydroxyl are constantly migrating around. If those could be collected at the sites, by perhaps electrical methods and cryogenic methods, then a certain amount of independence for each community might be possible as per water. For Carbon, it is not unlikely that that could be brought in from NEO's, even crashed to near site(s). Nitrogen, to some degree perhaps from Earth, if not the Lunar poles or NEO's. Some materials would require tight recycling.

The idea of a vacuum "Dome(s)" would likely work on Mars as well. It should not be that hard to draw down the air pressure as it may be ~~~5.5 millibar.

Of course, a toasty lava pool would be welcome in Martian winters and dust storm events. And for both the Moon and Mars, these should also be a source of processed materials. Metals? Slag bricks?

Curiously it might be wondered if Oxygen from these would be more important than that from plant life. In a Martian winter or dust storm or Lunar night, you have a very good source of cold for your heat engines. So, you should be able to continue to manufacture Oxygen even in those periods.

Thats a start.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-16 07:06:08)

Void · 2022-04-16 08:17:05

It just occurred to me that not only electrolysis might be used to extract concentrates of various substances from molten rock/salt (Molten salt is molten rock at a lower temperature).

I am often someone who knows a little about some things. I do recall that for brines, temperature has a lot to do with what precipitates as salt crystals out of the solution. Typically, more is in solution at higher temperatures, but cool it off and certain salts may precipitate out.

So, if molten rock is the solution, and you vary the temperature you may promote dissolve and precipitate cycles for some materials. Not sure how you dredge out what you want. Maybe some stuff floats?

Still worth considering in my opinion.

And of course, if you are heating/dissolving during the Lunar day and cooling/precipitating in the Lunar night, you have also stored and utilized thermal energy for industrial/life support processes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-17 05:33:22)

Void · 2022-04-17 05:52:43

The things I have recently proposed are of course almost entirely based on other people's previous work/teachings.

This is sort of a contrast to what is recently discussed in this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill

I guess you might consider one of these a dimension and the other another dimension. There is no wrong, just choices. And then I can contradict and say that it is wrong not to consider the choices

Perhaps it is wrong to not explore all the choices, if you have the luxury to do it. Time and means to do so.

So, actually both are going to be done. There is no need to say, "Just this one, not that one". That just cannot be sensible.

Advantages will exist for both. The biggest advantage would be to have the advantages of both.

Should Mass driver to L1 be done, then you do have a better energy situation, but a microgravity situation. You could build factories with synthetic gravity for that, and that would help. But the surface of the Moon has a definite up/down. If most of your labor is going to be robots/telepresence/automation, I feel that the Moons gravity may be an environment that we can better adapt to. But that is just a feeling. Not proven.

Oxygen, Slag, Toxins. Why lift them to orbit? Unless you can need them in orbit. Oxygen for the most part. A mass driver is an interesting device, for launch of specific load types. Tethers are another, but I am uncomfortable with that notion as I cannot feel secure that they will not be broken by impactors, quite frequently.

For now, an unimproved Moon suggests to me just Chemical Rockets and Mass Drivers. Those are primarily the means of initiating launch from the surface of the Moon. But another could be Laser>Steam. I would prefer the steam of Oxygen. But that would not be a thing to start with. Not easy either.

Like an artist with clay, there seems to be opportunity to choose pathways.

At some point in our space history, the Moon has become "Taboo". I suspect that it is a result of an insidious thing. Humans feeding on other humans. The "Mars Roach Motel". The idea appears to have been to keep space interest going but to subvert it to the search for alien life. To keep the money flowing, to utilize the technical skills of those who have them, but to keep the slaves in containment. The apparent pattern has continued and appears to continue.

The Moon may be attainable, and so it must be prohibited by "Taboo". Mars is a target to keep the machine running, one that can be sabotaged rather easily when the time comes for the need to continue the containment of the slaves.

It seems probable that SpaceX and Elon Musk are being groomed for failure at this point, but I don't think that the slave masters will win this time, not in the end. I think that a breakthrough is very likely in spite of their efforts. But they will slow things down. I am sure they would like to engineer a catastrophic failure at this point if they could.

You have to remember that there are people who primarily manipulate objects and there are people who primarily manipulate people as objects. The slave trade never completely ended, it is present still, and likely always will be.

But in the end the slavers can be exposed, it is possible. And their immoral lack of responsible behaviors can be exposed. And the technological people can push the criminals of words back yet again to bring a new day. Vision can push the people of words back into the darkness of their vampire world one more time.

------

Well, actually there is just a bit of truth to all that. I think I am getting better with words also. I guess we have to develop teeth and claws otherwise they will forever hold us in the dark prisons made of their words.

Some things I see and don't say though. It is very unlikely that they will continue to win. Their ~80 years ending/ended, and ours are just beginning/waking, (And I don't mean woke. That is deception). It only remains to take their car keys away. Rather sad actually, to be forced to it.

I will only say that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-17 06:58:38)

Void · 2022-04-17 06:59:27

Not to be concerned It is likely going to be good in the end.

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-17 07:06:57

For Void.... in another topic, a member (either kbd512 or Calliban) suggested using the new Spin Launcher to send mass from the surface of the Moon to a location outside the Moon's gravity well.

Since your post #158 calls attention to the work of Dr. O'Neill, I'm wondering how your vision might adapt to the Spin Launcher idea?

It is complex (of course) in it's own way, but it actually exists, unlike the linear accelerators so beloved of the O'Neill generation.

(th)

Void · 2022-04-17 08:10:43

I have only a little time just now.

I believe that spin launch may have method for the Moon, but I think it does expel a counter weight. If that is true, then that is the propulsion mass.

A mass driver would use the Moon itself as propulsion mass in the case of being mounted on the Moon.

Starship, is a visitor, the others then would be inhabitants, so they have to come later.

------

The "Back to the 70's notion may have problems". I think the present USA administration is not doing too well with it. Can't get us hooked on oil just yet. Managed to get inflation though.

The notion of shooting mass from the Moon to L1, I believe, was an OK idea to continue to think about. But I don't think that they addressed the problems of radiation or microgravity on humans that well yet at that time. Also, I recall that at that time they did not think that it would ever be possible to establish a synthetic gravity machine on any except the smallest asteroids. So, they went in that direction.

At this time those assumptions can be modified. Also, the engines for rockets are better, so the result may be better.

I recall the book, I believe they were thinking of beta cloth for clothing, and of course wet soil on a synthetic gravity world cylinder wall. Corrosion was not addressed well, I feel.

------

In the end I want all horses in the race. Maybe they all will all be winners. But we have to be careful, as it is very suspected by me that the intentions of the enemy are to divert us away from what we could accomplish, and to get us on to a high ladder, and then shake us down. I am all for Mars, but I am not for the Roach Motel options.

We must remain concerned about deceptions. We are not being served, we are being exploited. No, that's not left thinking. The left loves to exploit people. For them that is Christmas and Easter.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-17 08:16:18)

Void · 2022-04-17 20:03:24

To continue...

Both visions for the Moon will likely start with chemical rocket access. And defining resources of the Moon more correctly will indicate what is useful to try.

So, maybe it is 10 people on the Moon, 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, or 1,000,000. We will not know the limits until it is tried. If the population must be small, then indeed mass drivers and L1 will perhaps be the main deal.

And then there will be the Tesla Bot and the like: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Te … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Why Elon Musk Says The Tesla Bot Is More Important Than Tesla Vehicles!
YouTube · 4,000+ views · 7 hr ago · by The Tesla Space

Now think of these or similar being on the Moon as Avatars for humans on Earth.
Imagine them using a rickshaw wagon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw

This would help stabilize the robot but it would not need it's hands to grab it. Perhaps attachment points near the waist/hips. Now give the assembly a sunshade/solar panels. This then may allow continued activity during the day.
Then for night, I guess some protective methods to keep the thing from freezing it's batteries and such.

So, then, how many of these? Millions? Maybe. They will not require human life support, but could become very productive, and be a method for humans that never leave the Earth, to walk on the Moon.

That's not bad, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-17 20:11:28)

Void · 2022-04-19 08:30:51

Just now, I am thinking about coupling space power systems to Ocean processes.

Space power systems could use Laser, Microwaves, and reflectance to deliver energy to certain parts of the Earth.

Just now I am focusing more on reflection of sunlight.

I recall Isaac Arthur explaining that getting power from space would not be a heating hazard for the Planet. The reason is that you would produce and sustain less greenhouse gasses if you get more energy that way than by burning stuff.
The effects of heating would be less that way than for greenhouse gasses.

The above of course only can be true, if the heating from greenhouse gasses is a real thing. I am not defining the magnitude of any such problem that may exist from greenhouse gasses.

So, a mirror system in orbit(s) would have more or less animation. This use of the word would not tilt towards cartoons. Rather it would be "How animal like will the system be, or plant like".

A plant like system might seek to point to a specific location on the surface of the Earth. A more animal like system might point to various points of needs in multiple locations. So, more joints and motors, and motivation methods.

An item which might be manipulated would also be what wavelengths a mirror might reflect or absorb. And I have no specific reason to care just now, I just make note that down the road if a reason emerges, then this manipulation would likely be available.

I am going to avoid going "Into the Weeds" about what energy collectors might be like on the surface. For now I want to suggest the most simple method that might produce some benefits.

The query "Nutrients in the Oceans" could be useful to you as a learning project.

It turns out that getting sufficient nutrients for agriculture, cost energy and effort to a large degree. But the lower ocean layers may have those in greater abundance.

Lifting that up would cost energy, as the cold water is generally heavier than warmer water. Also if you lift it up and release it, it will mostly sink back down, carrying the nutrients with it. You could mix warm upper water and cold lower water, and get some nutrients up towards the sunlight, but again that takes energy and machines, each which have costs.

So, if you shine extra light on a patch of ocean, then it may be that you would produce an upwelling of nutrients. It should produce a plume when the surface water warms. The surface water would then pancake outwards and create a liquid vacuum, pulling up colder water with nutrients in it. Of course, then that colder water would warm up.

Generally, you might do this in the desert parts of the Ocean to less disrupt existing life forms.

The results should be the ingestion of CO2 by photo-microbes, the production of biomass, a further result of a fish harvest, and some Carbon being sequester at the bottom of the Oceans.

It is also possible that by drawing nutrients through fish, to feed people then nutrients would ultimately be drawn from the cold ocean water to the continental masses. Be squeamish if you like. But recognize that poo is gold in some situations. People who are spiritually marshmallow pie inside should not be regulating our existence.

To finance this, I guess those who create the situation should be granted the rights to harness the results. The results would be food, and if you like, also the right to burn some Carbon bearing materials. Again, I don't want to hear "Marshmallow thinking" on this paragraph.

A further method to harness the produced heated water, might also lead to an OTEC similar type of energy production. and that would be fine, but for now, I want just the most simple form of the notion.

Done.

Well, OK, there might be more. If you wanted to also shine light on cold surface waters adjacent to temperate deserts, then you might induce greater rainfall, while also doing the previously described process.

More touchy per wildlife concerns, you might shine to s spot in a near polar sea, say Hudson Bay, or Baltic Sea, or White Sea. But those are maybe's.

The difference between heat from mirrors and heat from the greenhouse effect would be that the greenhouse effect may warm up the polar areas more than other areas, I believe. Or at least I recall that being said.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-19 09:02:25)

Void · 2022-04-19 15:14:57

I watch videos from Isaac Arthur
This for the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE
This about "What if the Earth became a Rogue Planet?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZDbrayj5O0

His Moon notions are rather optimistic, but I like it.

For a Rogue Earth, I would divert and do some "Add-On's". It is fun to think of the possibility of the Earth being nudged out of the sun's gravity well. It stimulates some interesting things.

His notion would be that humans would survive in small numbers, using nuclear power, mostly fission.

It has occurred to be, the question, why not geothermal? And then I began to think of Geothermal using liquid air. I guess for Mars that would be out of reach. Perhaps CO2 could be used. But I am now thinking of Titan.

Nitrogen would not work well for Titan, but what about Methane? It seems a good fit.

For fun, I would also like to consider a cold Terrestrial around a star such as Proxima Centauri. I don't think that such exists, but out in the universe, I do think those do exist. I guess I would define a cold terrestrial, a cold planet with a gravity similar to Earth<>Mars, and an atmosphere dominated by Nitrogen. In other solar systems, the equivalent of the orbit of Saturn might work, maybe even as far out almost as Pluto.

It is very unlikely that our instruments could detect any of those at this time. They would have very long years and would not be very noticeable by wobbles either. I guess I would think it most likely that a cold terrestrial would be in an elliptical orbit. A planet that was not quit ejected from its sun's gravity well. But who knows, maybe somehow a circular orbit.

The closest we would have to such worlds would be Titan, and Triton and Pluto, maybe not too......far from that model.
Titan does the best job to hold its Nitrogen dominated atmosphere.

So, if you had a sufficient metals and rock, you might drill down and pump liquid Methane into the crust and then have a steam of Methane push out. For the materials needed, it might be that the crust of Titan would have some. Or there might be other local sources, perhaps Enceladus. That would likely horrify people who seek alien life.

However, I suggest that lots of Metals and Rock from the Moon and Mercury.

But, what about Hydrogen bombs pushed into the crust and then exploded to warm up the crust?

I think that that situation would offer pretty good control of dangerous radioactivity.

So, actually it is possible that Titan could be both geothermal and Fusion in its energy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-19 20:04:23)

Calliban · 2022-04-20 00:48:58

Fissile fuels, whilst undeniably important to humanity, are insufficiently abundant to provide the energy basis for a planetary ecosystem over geological timescales. For long-term habitation of icy planetary bodies, humanity must master nuclear fusion. There are various ways that this can be accomplished, including fusion-fission hybrid technologies.

In terms of living on icy moons, we have discussed many possible options on this board.

1. The simplest would be to dig tunnels into the icy crust, attach insulation to the inner surfaces and heat and illuminate them.

2. We have discussed as well the possibility of large scale volumetric habitats, with multiple internal decks. Structural strength could be provided by an outer ice shell. Nitrogen, liquid methane and other coolants, could be pumped through the habitat and evaporated to remove waste heat. This option is attractive on Titan, where there is abundant liquid hydrocarbons.

3. For a largely water ice covered surface, ice covered ponds provide an attractive option. Ponds can support a diverse ecosystem if humans can provide the energy source.

Open sky terraforming is possible on larger world's like Callisto and Ganymede. Humans could live in habitats constructed of ice, but to go outside they would not need space suits, just warm clothing.

Smaller moons and dwarf planets have insufficient gravity to hold onto a thick atmosphere. Thin atmospheres remain useful for shielding against cosmic rays, meteorites and providing enough pressure to prevent ice from subliming.

For small bodies, with diameter around 50km, hydrostatic pressure at the core is ~1 bar and these bodies are mostly water ice. There is an opportunity here for a power source to be used to melt the centre of these bodies and for a deep aquatic environment to be created in close to zero gravity conditions. There are hundreds of thousands of bodies in this size range in the Kuiper belt.

For even smaller bodies in the size range of Halley's comet, core aquaforming would require placing a net around the outside of the icy shell and exerting enough pressure to balance internal hydrostatic pressure. This could be done using basalt fibres. To exert a 50KPa pressure over a body 10km in diameter, would require a basalt fibre shell weighing around 200 million tonnes. I think it more likely that human beings would mine such a body and build habitats on its surface.

Small icy bodies provide something that free space habitats cannot - a heat sink. Whereas in free space a habitat must be provided with huge radiators, on the surface of an ice moon or KBO, the huge heat capacity of the body allows heat to be removed by convection. This is valuable for economic reasons, as it allows habitats to be constructed with more efficient use of internal volume. A 500m diameter Bernal Sphere provides 785,000 m2 of living space on its inner surface. However, if it were possible to divided its internal volume into decks roughly 3m apart, it would yield over 20 million square metres of living space - a factor 25 increase. In free space, it is difficult to take advantage of this because of the amount of waste heat that must be disposed of as infrared radiation. But if the hab is located on an icy surface, it can be disposed of by pumping liquids through heat exchangers. I think this is the real value that these icy bodies will ultimately provide. It is much cheaper to provide bulk living space on an icy body than in free space.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-04-20 01:41:35)

Void · 2022-04-20 08:43:02

Good stuff Calliban as usual.

I made a mistake about Methane as a working fluid for Titan. Or at least I fear I did.

Methane and water make clathrate in the seas of Earth at low temperatures and high pressure. I am afraid that if Methane liquid were pumped underground such a solid would form. It needs some thinking.

It does then raise the question: "How is there fluid Methane on Titan?". Also what about Methane in the atmosphere? I guess, maybe it is a question of pressure not being high enough to form Clathrate, or maybe also, the lack of liquid water.

It does make me wonder if the ice shell of Titan contains a lot of various clathrates.

It is something that needs more information I guess.

I do still think that some type of Hydrogen Bomb fusion method might be used, but of course we might hope for smaller scale actual reactors.

Done.

Void · 2022-04-21 12:07:37

Last night I went to bed thinking I was done here.

This morning I began thinking about travel on Mars and maybe some other worlds. Then I found this video by Isaac Arthur, newly out.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=is … 2C6AB2CF2B
Quote:

Traveling Around Other Worlds
YouTube · 7,000+ views · 5 hr ago · by Isaac Arthur

Think what you like.

So, before Raptor 2.0, Elon Musk said that SSTO(Earth), was possible but you needed to get rid of the legs and heat shield. Well they got rid of the legs. Maybe the Raptor 2.0 improvements would to the rest. However, I am not so much thinking about SSTO(Earth), but rather SSTO(Mars). SSTO(Mars>Earth), is already expected to be possible so SSTO(Mars>Mars Orbit(s)) must most likely be available.

As I have thought about it, there is the "Bring-Up" function and the "Bring-Down" function. Even if Starship or a similar could do SSTO(Earth), it is debatable how much "Bring-Down" traffic there would be that could not be filled by a ship that brought a cargo up.

That may not be so true for Mars. It is my feeling that various methods could be used to bring Moon>Mars Orbit, hardware made on the Moon or from Lunar resources. While this could be completed with a standard Starship, I am going to suggest a combination variation of those types of ship(s).

Starting with a Pseudo-Starship, then give it what it needs to go to orbit empty of cargo, but allow it also some or all of the propellants to then land with a cargo. This would be a "Bring-Down" function. Such cargo may have come to Martian orbit by efficient means that would possibly not involve Hohmann Transfer. There would be various types of that. I will not bore you with a list.

This ship then being created for this function on Mars, it may have a lesser heat shield. I think I recall that if entering the Earth's atmosphere, might be ~8.0, then entering Mars from Earth would be ~6.5. Then to enter the Mars atmosphere from Mars orbit might be a stress of ~4.0. So the heat shield might be a lesser one.

So, then this would be a SSTO(Mars) "Bring-Down" ship.

But I would like to turn that into a 2nd stage at times, provided that a 1st stage were to be provided.

I guess if it were desired, then you could simply do a Super-Heavy with modifications. But I want to deviate from that.

I am thinking a modified Doughnut shape for the 1st stage.

In the movie, "The Martian", the assent vehicle was modified to have a tarp over it as it was judged that by the time you got up to speed, the air thickness would have diminished at altitude to the point you could get away with it.

Granted, a Doughnut shaped 1st stage that sort of surrounded the 2nd stage would have drag on the way up, the drag on the way down might be very useful for landing. This 1st stage landed on the ground, then the 1st stage may be able to land in it's center. Starship is supposed to have good hover powers. So, then perhaps no formal launch tower? Not sure how it gets filled, maybe bunkered items for a 0 Stage.

So, then using the 1st stage, then the 2nd Stage can become a "Bring-Up" function. Like Super-Heavy, the 1st stage would not go to orbit, and it's heat shielding burden would be reduced.

I would also like to see the 1st stage work "Stand-Alone", to be a surface-to-surface vehicle. Still not needing full orbital scale heat shielding.

And even then I sort of am thinking that this thing could have a hovercraft skirt on it's bottom. This to even allow for hover, and to also be the legs, and to have some shock absorbing ability. Of course this would need to be able to tolerate the stresses it might be subjected to.

I do not wish to define it better than that as it could go in several directions.

Calliban recently mentioned a rocket sled 1st stage elsewhere on this site. We also have historical notions of Mass Drivers. And those might come to exist. I have seen opinions to suggest that Mass drivers could work for Mars. Perhaps as a 1st stage. I support the continuation of interest in these things. However, it is likely true that if you have a mishap for theses machines, then you might have some serious down time as one track most likely handles many loads.

So, in the rocket system I have suggested, this would not be as true, in my opinion.

Mass Drivers, and Rocket Sled methods might be good in certain spots, maybe on mountains, or near a industrial center.

This rocket system might be pretty good in the low spots, such as Hellas, as you would have more air drag, but would also have a 1st stage method to move the goods from Hellas to other spots on Mars, with sub-orbital and hover methods.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-21 12:42:12)

Calliban · 2022-04-21 16:11:02

Void, I watched part of the video and found it interesting. On Mars, the thin atmosphere and absence of any bodies of water, should allow the construction of railways that can achieve speeds of 250mph. On Mars, this would allow you to get from one side of the planet to the other in 24 hours. Railways can give us all the mobility on Mars that jets give us on Earth.

If the US navy and NASA work on lattice confinement fusion is as good as it cracks up to be, we should be able to build aircraft with air breathing nuclear gas turbines on Mars. These would fly at high sub-mach speeds and should be able to circuit the planet hundreds of times before refuelling.

Void · 2022-04-21 20:51:07

I think we have a fair chance of convergence. Time scales do matter. Rails, are quite an investment, but the nuclear or chemical rocket propulsion systems might be implemented relatively early.

I am all for all of it, when it can be done.

I could use your help in my next post as you are one of the Nuclear members.

Done.

Void · 2022-04-21 21:08:53

And so I will show this:

This could possibly be built on worlds with significant water/ice deposits.

Earth being the main focus for now.

I have visualized this as to be in use along with: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … &FORM=VIRE

Of course these would likely be inside a body of water such as a Lake/Sea/Ocean. The devices at the surface might be anchored to the cone.

I am also thinking of orbital mirrors to shine additional light to the surface of water near them. If it could be done, then excess energy could be stored in the pink area of the cone, as heat, most likely. If these cones were big, then they might reach very far down where the water is very cold. A heat sink then.

The white apex "A" section could include areas that normal diving skills could reach. And here is a thing for you nuclear members:

"Could nuclear submarine or other types of reactors be included in the "A" area?

You understand that this is for stored energy and would assist in using intermittent energy sources. Also, the created convection from heat leakage and on purpose dumping of heat would cause bottom water to rise up carrying nutrients.

This then could capture CO2 from the water and ultimately from the atmosphere, and some would be sequestered into sediments in a semi-natural way. But also this would provide food, as Kelp and fish and such things might be nurtured.

So, I am wondering about a possible nuclear function and methods to render it safe. My understanding is that submarine technology is rather safe historically.

------

And obviously something like this could be done on Mars.

This is all the "Green" energy types hooked to a thermal storage. I don't like the saying "Green" as I feel it has been misused. But I am being rather "Green" here in this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-21 21:20:03)

Void · 2022-04-22 12:13:15

This is sort of opposite of the last post, a "Cold Box":

Nothing fancy. Just a box of cold water. But on top of it a surface below the wave troughs but to perhaps have some sunlight.

So, intermittent energy could pump bottom water into it. A problem with OTEC is the energy required to pump cold water up for the process.
In this case it is brought up to where the process would occur. And this would likely be nutrient rich water if brought from the ocean bottoms, and when used in a process, would be warmed up and could be released to the top of the box.

While electricity might be an output of this collection of devices, also perhaps fresh water as well. In that case the cold water from the box would be used in heat exchangers to condense water vapors, from a distillation process.

And this again could be in association with the collection: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … &FORM=VIRE

Nuclear Fission would also be an option to include.

And I would mention again simple solar reflectors in orbit could shine on this process at night. Of course you would need to have considerations for what this would do for sensitive wildlife. But that will be a consideration per location and species.

I am afraid that regulatory agencies are being converted into protection rackets. Positions of power from which members can demand political or economic concessions, or interfere with business processes, to have advantage, and perhaps have under the table returns.
So, I am reasonably considerate of arguments for protections of certain situations, but not all situations, and not even the majority of situations.

Shining extra light to this situation should aid energy collections and photosynthesis which may help to sequester CO2.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-22 12:23:58)

Void · 2022-04-23 07:13:38

The Moon could be a "Source World", so could other worlds also be, but the Moon seems to be almost in reach at this point.

From the Moon, a major product, "Mirrors". And these for use with Earth and perhaps the Moon as well. It may be that they would also have use on the Moon, as "Ore Bodies" may be in locations where the nights can be long. To simply give night light to such an area then improves the "Energy Density" and simplifies process as you might more continuously run an industrial process.

Some orbits of the Moon are "Self Cleaning", so eventually objects will crash into the Moon if they are in that orbit. This could be good or bad. If you had mirrors in those orbits, it may be that they could maintain orbit, with photon reflection propulsion. This would not be like traveling to Mars, rather just a small amount of "Make-Up" propulsion when needed. And so these would tend to travel in areas free of space junk. To do this they might need added inertia, which could be Lunar materials fashioned into some type of useful machinery, for some kind of productive output.

It may also be true that if you had at least 2 magnetic stations on the Moon, you could repulse and attract them from the Mirror assembly, to trim orbit. This could eventually be built into a global field. That might be lumpy and leaky, to collect the solar wind output on the surface of the Moon.

And then a thin atmosphere?

Anyway, back to Earth, the use of mirrors instead or Lasers or Microwaves should simplify the machinery in orbit(s). And the use of the mirrors could be multiplexed, as when needed these could be pointed to generate power, at one location, or alternately to another.

Another could include warding off a killing frost, or warming the surface of water adjacent to certain deserts, in order to humidify the air.

-----

So, if we have turned the Moon into a "Maker", then we could also send mirrors to Mars and perhaps other locations.

There can be various propulsive methods. They do not have to be the fastest. It is possible that a mirror delivered to Mars in 10 years can be sold for a profit, even with that time lag. The mirrors then can be used as mirrors or could be consumed in a 3D printing process.

So, "Yes, The Moon!".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-23 07:27:06)

Void · 2022-04-23 08:00:33

So, then, I feel that it will be possible to move the Earth towards an "Ice Age" climate, but of course not to one. Then the amount of extra light conveyed to the surface of the Earth would not be a problem at all but all pretty much benefit.

See, this is "All" Terraforming/Para terraforming.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-23 08:01:04)

Void · 2022-04-23 11:27:53

Now OTEC and Heat Pumps with fluid storage tanks: (OTEC is a possible method, others may exist)

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … ersion.php
Picture Quote: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … hermal.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_the … conversion
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Temp … Ozeane.png
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Otec … glish).png

And then with Heat Pumps, you may store very cold fluids such as brines or Ammonia or Hydrocarbons.

Similarly, you may store hot water, from a heat pump.

The side objective as before is to warm up water with nutrients and discharge it to the surface, and to cool down or make heavy with salts, infertile surface waters.

Not all motors in the collection of devices have to involve electric processes. Wave power might not, and perhaps even Windmills might directly drive heat pumps.

So, all this in conjunction with this: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … &FORM=VIRE

And perhaps also including nuclear fission, and;

also perhaps including solar orbital mirrors,

We may have a pretty good deal of handling the situation(s).

I am short on time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-23 11:35:43)

Void · 2022-04-25 10:51:32

So, Mirrors from the Moon, as a significant tool for various worlds, including the Earth.

Seems possible that they could be 3D printed onto a "Balloon" in space, using Vacuum Deposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_deposition

And per prior posts of course I think this could be very good for Earth and other projects.

I am going under the assumption that this can be much better than to beam microwaves or laser beams.

So, anyway, "Yes the Moon".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-04-25 11:00:34)

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