Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-03-06 21:58:26

I really like this article about Venus: https://www.jhuapl.edu/NewsStory/220209 … ages-venus
Quote:

FEBRUARY 9, 2022
Visions of Venus
PARKER SOLAR PROBE CAPTURES ITS FIRST IMAGES OF VENUS’ SURFACE IN VISIBLE LIGHT
By Michael Buckley
Since Parker Solar Probe captured its first visible light images of Venus’ surface from orbit in July 2020, a subsequent flyby allowed the spacecraft to gather more images, which mission scientists strung together into a video of Venus’ entire nightside. A full analysis of the images and video, published Feb. 9 in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, is adding to scientists’ understanding of the planet likened as Earth’s twin.

And this GIF is just something else: https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/images/n … ge3_lg.gif

I am tilting towards the notion that there may have never been a "Run-Away" greenhouse effect on Venus created by oceans vaporized. Instead, it begins to look like Venus was what we might consider an Earth which did not yet or cannot naturally evolve to be what Earth is now.

Here is an article of great interest to me that suggests that Earth originated to be like Venus:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 … us%20today.
Quote:

Earth’s early atmosphere may have been toxic like the one on Venus
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 … z7MopWFozj

So, if this set of notions is more or less true, then we might coax Venus to move into a more habitable direction, or at least a more useful and easier to utilize direction(s).

I have recently read that Venus may still have a lot of Hydrogen in its core/mantle. That seems possible to me, as there would likely be no Hydrogen in the atmosphere now, unless it were being replenished from a reservoir. It either gets replenished from Volcanism, or from the Solar Wind. I feel it to be extremely unlikely that the last vestiges of oceans would be retained in the atmosphere today in Sulfuric Acid and H20 molecules, at just the time when humans develop and have technology to notice it.

I am now more optimistic about creating a form of terraforming for Venus. Sulfur compounds in the atmosphere will be rather important. H2SO4, SO2, SO3. Eliminating the H2SO4, favoring SO2, tolerating SO3. Capturing Hydrogen into floating cities, to have vast aeroponic gardens.

Creating a global magnetic field may allow an Oxygen layer and I hope, an Ozone layer above the rest of the Atmosphere. This then reducing U.V. flux going down below. Also, my understanding is that U.V. contributes to the Acid Rain problem, which actually the rain, or Verga, is pretty much almost all acid.

The Boiling points for the three Sulfur compounds are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid
Sulfuric Acid, Quote:

337[1] °C (639 °F; 610 K) When sulfuric acid is above 300 °C (572 °F; 573 K), it gradually decomposes to SO3 + H2O

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_trioxide
Sulfur_trioxide, Quote:

45 °C (113 °F; 318 K)

Note: Solubility in Water: "Reacts to give sulfuric acid"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide
Sulfur_dioxide, Quote:

−10 °C (14 °F; 263 K)

The volcanic eruption of a volcano of Tonga recently may have done some cooling of the planet. The scientific community is playing it down, justified or not.
https://www.downtoearth.org.in/video/na … atmosphere.
Quote:

The gases spewing out of the volcano include sulphur dioxide (SO2), which is of particular interest because of its global cooling effect.
On June 12, 1991, Pinatubo spewed about 15 million tonnes of sulphur dioxide into the stratosphere. SO2 reacts with water to form sulphuric acid droplets, which become a part of aerosol particles.
Aerosols are tiny liquid droplets suspended in the air. The sulphuric acid-rich aerosol particles induce cooling by reflecting the incoming sunlight into space.
The total mass of SO2 in the volcanic cloud was 20 teragram (Tg). The particles remained in the stratosphere for three-four years after the explosion. Researchers recorded a 0.5 degrees Celsius (°C) drop in the average global temperature over large parts of the earth between 1992 and 1993.
The Tonga volcanic cloud contains roughly 0.4 Tg of SO2. This means it is unlikely to have a significant cooling effect on temperatures globally.

So, in my mind for Venus, SO2 is the potential hero gas, and H2SO4 is a thing to avoid. SO3 may be a tolerated gas.

An objective therefor for terraforming Venus, (Presuming it does not have life), would be to alter the balance to be against the existence of Sulfuric Acid.

From the above, it seems that this happens at the base of the clouds already: Quote:

337[1] °C (639 °F; 610 K) When sulfuric acid is above 300 °C (572 °F; 573 K), it gradually decomposes to SO3 + H2O

So, if a city were to be floating in the clouds, then it should suck up the created water, and remove it from the potential to react with SO3 to revert to H2SO4. So, the city should be large, and in my opinion have aeroponic gardens.

Another terraform tool could be mirrors in orbit, as they could heat the Sulfuric Acid to extremely high temperatures and decompose it even more.

My thinking is that clouds of SO2 would float much higher than H2SO4 or SO3, perhaps also sheltering those lower gasses from U.V. light.

Venus itself glows, and so it may be that solar cells or even photosynthesis could be done at the base of the cities. I estimate that that base would have a pressure of about 10 bars.
Near Infrared Photosynthesis: https://ensia.com/articles/better-photo … nobacteria.

Of course, it would be quite hot at the 10 Bar level. However, if your city extends with multiple chambers from the 10 Bar level up to perhaps the 1/3 Bar level, then you may use water to cool the bottom and steam vented upward to generate electric power. A more normal Photosynthesis may be possible on the top, and of course LED gardens in between.

From there the questions are, do you want to cool the surface? Or do you want to find a way to keep it hot? Do you want to shell pretty much the whole of Venus over? This shell would be in the 1/3 to 10 bar pressure levels.

A more easy shell, would be to allow night air to flow though turbines down, and the day air to flow up during the day, I think.

A much harder path would be to pump Nitrogen and Oxygen to the top of the shell, and put all the toxic and excess gasses below it. In that case you might go for something like the .5 bar level for the top of the shell, as you would want to reduce the greenhouse effect to compensate for being so much closer to the sun.

In all of these notions I do intend that the surface would be mined, and materials would be moved to orbit as well. But materials might be "Sailed" on the Solar Wind, from Mercury as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-06 23:05:36)

Void · 2022-03-07 20:04:21

Leapfrogging to continue with and from post #95:

https://phys.org/news/2022-03-carbon-di … floor.html
Quote:

MARCH 7, 2022
Research shows carbon dioxide could be stored below ocean floor
by National University of Singapore
Climate change is one of the most pressing challenges facing humanity. To combat its potentially catastrophic effects, scientists are searching for new technologies that could help the world reach carbon neutrality.

One potential solution that is drawing growing attention is to capture and store carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in the form of hydrates under ocean floor sediments, kept in place by the natural pressure created by the weight of the seawater above. A major question, however, has been how stable this stored CO2would be for the extended periods of storage required to keep the carbon in place and out of the atmosphere.
........

A person can find an expert for any position in the notion that we must deal with the potential of so-called: Greenhouse Effect----Climate Change----Climate Crisis.

I sort of am inclined to believe that it is a problem, but not of the magnitude that the hysterical version puts forward. There is too much benefit, if the news media(s) can push hysteria. And some entities most likely would like to cripple the west of its industrial abilities if possible, using our lefties as a fifth column, (Unwitting for the most part I believe).

I believe that it will be possible to go more and more to non-Carbon energy. But it should be done in an orderly fashion, and to also be concerned to keep the wealth level acceptable.

In post #95, I suggested undersea tanks for heated water as a method to store energy. Such energy might come from many possible sources. I have also suggested a modification of OTEC to extract the energy, hopefully, "On Demand".

OTEC:
http://otecnews.org/what-is-otec/#:~:te … on%20costs.
Quote:

A small hybrid 1 MW OTEC is capable of producing some 4,500 cubic meters of fresh water per day, enough to supply a population of 20,000 with fresh water. OTEC-produced fresh water compares very favourably with standard desalination plants, in terms of both quality and production costs.
What is OTEC - OTEC News
otecnews.org/what-is-otec/

Query: "Extracting CO2 from Sea water".
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/usin … atmosphere
Quote:

Now, a UCLA research team has proposed a pathway that could help extract billions of metric tons of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere each year. Instead of directly capturing atmospheric carbon dioxide, the technology would extract it from seawater, enabling the seawater to absorb more. Why? Because, per unit volume, seawater holds nearly 150 times more carbon dioxide than air.

I am not sure, but my previous activities with the notion of distilling water familiarized me with "Degassing Water".
Quote:

https://www.veoliawatertech.com/en/solu … %20boiling.
Degassing Water Methods
What is the degasification process and why the need for degassed water?
Home
Degassing Water
What is degassing water and some of the various degasification techniques available?
Degassed water or water degasification is the removal or reduction of dissolved oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other gasses from water.

Some of the various degasification methods include:
Vacuum Degasification
Thermal Degasification
Membrane Degasification
Chemical Degasification
Absorption-based Degasification
Steam Stripping Degasification

So, various methods may be possible.

----------

In my thinking per advice of members here, and also that of Peter Zeihans published materials, the USA/North American Continent, should be very able to provide Hydrocarbons as needed even in the current world situations, if given proper setup time. That will be from our normal oil on land, and Shale Oil.

Auxiliary sources would be from Canida, including some Shale Oil, and from our gulf undersea sources.

I think that it would be very excellent to guide our petroleum industries to Segway into this new technology that I am favoring. It would be a shame to loose the undersea technical skills.

So, then obviously, I am favoring the method to store CO2 on the sea floor, and also to promote a collection of energy sources not Hydrocarbons, and also energy storage, promotion of sea fertility, and also sources of potable water.

----
One of the reasons I am interested in propulsions in space that might involve Lasers and Oxygen, are that eventually we might get metals from the Moon, mined and processed with virtual labor, and flown into the atmosphere of Earth as some type of metal gliders, to splash into the Oceans, and to then retrieve the metals from there. But this would be pretty far in the future. But to have all kinds of thermal reservoirs underwater in the ocean may be a trick that would be productive.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-07 20:37:41)

Void · 2022-03-09 12:49:29

This came to my attention today. Dust as a Terraforming tool is of interest.

https://phys.org/news/2022-03-airborne- … -role.html
Quote:

Airborne study reveals surprisingly large role of desert dust in forming cirrus clouds
..................Being able to properly simulate dust abundance and cirrus formation in models is important for understanding the role of cirrus clouds in climate. Clouds strongly influence the balance of solar radiation that regulates surface temperatures, yet clouds, and cloud formation, remain a poorly understood aspect of the climate system. Unlike the puffy, white clouds that we see at lower altitudes that reflect sunlight, high-altitude cirrus exert a net warming effect on our climate by trapping heat that would otherwise escape into space. The surprisingly large role of mineral dust in controlling cirrus formation on a global scale establishes the critical role of dust in Earth's climate system............................

So, Phobos and Deimos being possible sources of dust for terraforming efforts. I think it would be good to try to see if that alone would be enough to vaporize the polar ice cap CO2 ices?

Size does matter. Some sizes cause precipitation, which we likely would not want, and some only cause clouds. Quantity also would matter.

It may well be preferred to be able to use only the dust to initiate terraforming, but it may also be needed or desired to use magnetic field protection for Mars, and also orbital mirrors to bring more moisture from ice deposits to the upper atmosphere.

-----

I still support "Mars Direct" for a base on Mars, but speculate that from there, a base in orbit associated with a moon, may be very important for human presence in the Martian "Sub-System".

Last edited by Void (2022-03-09 12:56:09)

Void · 2022-03-11 13:05:13

Well, this is my sort of thing. It would seem that indeed we can have fusion powered worlds in our solar system. Lots of them perhaps.

What if you detonated a Nuclear Bomb i the Marianas Trench?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … ORM%3DVDRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … ORM%3DVDRE

So, Mars would be a hard sell for this. But maybe one of the ice caps? Big lake/sea, if you kept doing it. Of course, you would not want the output migrating per rivers and wind.

Well, smaller bombs, perhaps, at least at first. I am under the impression that Ice and water will tend to block radiation, so maybe a way can be found to make the surface of a lake accessible, as the heavy fallout might fall to the bottom of the lake/sea. I can think of other things, like shielded vehicles. Anyway, energy stored, periodically refreshed. Very cold winters, so cold can be "Gold".

It also seems likely that for Mars, the fallout in the bottom of the lake/sea would facilitate biological activity there, which could release greenhouse gasses.

An idea, maybe good or bad.

But then for more icy worlds, I have no qualms about contemplating it. After all I believe that a fusion reactor is likely to be pulsed, but of course would not be at such a large scale.

I would really be interested in considering it for Titan, maybe Pluto and other Plutoids. Could you activate a sufficient Nitrogen atmosphere that way and use that atmosphere as a radiator?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-11 13:19:30)

Void · 2022-03-12 12:52:02

I am thinking that some people might like this: Query: "The Planets Beyond Neptune: Explore the Edge of the Solar System (4K)"

https://www.reddit.com/user/Genaidyralp … e_edge_of/

What this suggests to me is that;
-Other Stars may host such worlds.
-We could make these things into "Nuclear Fusion Reactors", at least with Hydrogen bombs, so aliens might have done the same.
-So, to me it seems more likely that aliens and humans would do this before crossing to another star system.
-If we figure out how Humans might eventually take actions with these worlds, we might figure out what some "Aliens" might have done, or are doing.

So, then a plan to use these for something. I consider myself human so my suggestions might be one version of what humans might do with these.

Materials and energy. For energy, we might use the sun out to as far as Jupiter, maybe even Saturn. But icy worlds begin with Mars. I am presuming Hydrogen bomb reactors, only because we do not yet have any other functioning fusion reactor system. Hydrogen Bombs did exist and do exist, and might be used, for good, not only for evil.

So, beginning with Mars, and going outwards from the sun Fusion seems likely to be a real possibility for energy for worlds with less solar power. Of course Fission can fit in for special cases, very likely for space ships at least.

A rather simple choice is to consider water ice to be the divider between materials. If it is a gas at the temperatures of water ice, it is one thing, and if not then another. I guess, that it is easy to simply say Silicate/Metals materials, and materials that do not qualify for that assignment, in the environment of Earth.

So, I will refer to 1) Silicate/Metals, and 2) Ices. It is sort of arbitrary, but sort of a platform for use.

In the expansion of human into the solar system, I see the Moon as the initial source of 1) Silicates/Metals(Manufactured) to send outward to make other worlds habitable for Humans and their machines.

Later Mercury might also serve that function. And even beyond that other worlds could.

Even Jupiter has Callisto and it's Trojans, which may supply 1) Silicates/Metals(Materials)

The 1) Silicates/Metals(Donors) will likely use the solar wind or photons to project their products outward.

Nitrogen is a 2) Ice sort of material, of course not so much on Earth, so my method has holes. But ignore that. I can always go back and edit to make yet more verbiage to play games with, but I feel that what matters is what matters, not as much what is said. Nitrogen being in short supply in the inner solar system, Venus might be a donor for that. Mars, would be the primary recipient, how much accessable Nitrogen in the outer solar system moons? Don't know. It would have to buried deep, except for Triton and Titan, I think.

For those moons, I expect that the delivery of 1) Silicates/Metals would be the most important. Those could be strip mined, for ices, and habitats in part manufactured from ice and water. Then to leave an ice-covered ocean above an otherwise exposed core. And each moon in turn would become a donor for 1) Silicates/Metals.

This then could be migrated out to the Kuiper Belt objects, and beyond to the Oort Cloud objects.

This then suggests that humans have a chance of eventually migrating from one Oort Cloud to another in another star system, should that be available.

So, I would suspect that some Aliens might follow such a path.

We might suppose that the economic logic for this is that in manufacturing more habitat(Land), that can be sold to an expanding population.

At this time, that does not seem to be as evident a probability as it once was.

Further, if Idiocracy is real, we can anticipate "People Farmers", to continue to foster the breeding of better idiots, as they are better farm animals. And so, perhaps this is where all the aliens are.

They are just waiting to let their last fart when a comet hits them.

Lets hope we can do better than that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-12 13:21:58)

Void · 2022-03-12 13:39:55

I can present this is some type of evidence that Aliens may Fart:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Cacatoo+f … 37&pc=U531

Actually, I may start a topic if permitted about birds, especially verbal birds and birds with intelligence of sorts. So many of their biosystems are very different, and yet to a degree they are understandable.

Done

Void · 2022-03-13 10:36:09

Kimbal & Elon Musk reveal how we will farm food on Mars:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ki … &FORM=VIRE

OK, members know that I typically have weird notions about how to do things on Mars. I am not abandoning those, but I will step back and see if I can follow this, and perhaps help for contributions to accumulate. At first it is necessary to "Set Up Camp", in the most effective way possible. Following those, innovations specific to the Martian environments can be worked on.

While converted Starships could become these greenhouses, I am also very interested in inflatables. I know that some people want to 3d print buildings out of dirt and imported goop, I think inflatables would be a good bridge between an initial "Base/Camp Site", and expanding into innovations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatabl … %20outline

My feeling is that for Mars, inflatables only need to hold air pressure safely. Radiation is not likely to be a big problem.

I do not favor burring either Starship Greenhouses or Inflatable Greenhouses. I favor covering them each with water bags. Those will have to be such that freezing does not easily or quickly damage them. I am not thinking at this time to grow things in the water. Rather they are for Radiation protection, and also for the control of thermal changes. So they should have a outer covering that is going to endure the raw Martian environment for some time.

So, maybe just a bit like this:

The bags would be of a partitioned structure, and inflatable with Martian water.

Of course this would be engineered to better versions, you would not literally build it like the above.

But I have always been a little nervous about soil on top of a starship hull. If it depressurized, would it crush like a tin can? You would not need nearly as much water/ice bulk to provide radiation and thermal protections.

So, that's a possible thing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-13 11:01:52)

Void · 2022-03-13 20:27:07

Anton Petrov put together a video: "Venus, Mars, Titan and Earth Atmospheres Compared And Could We Terraform Them?"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=an … &FORM=VIRE

I sort of go along with most of what he shows/speculates.

I recently indicated a potential terraform method for Venus, in this topic. Of course terraform for Mars has endless authors of concepts.

Titan: I think that Titan, if it is sterile of life, could be a possible place where you might set off Hydrogen Bombs, underground. Then you may by some method pump liquid Methane into that hot water, and then spin turbines, while venting the Methane to atmosphere.

I think you could do a variant of "Shell World" for Titan. I don't want to go to far into it, but you might build giant domes with plastic fiber re-enforcements, out of ice. I should think that in reality you might have a warm troposphere in the bottom, and a cold overlying atmosphere above where it would touch ice. Dig, a basin about 30,000 feet???? deep, and then line it with some insulating "Soil", and then a dome that goes very far up. A Nitrogen/Oxygen mix inside. Artificial lighting of course, from electricity from the Hydrogen bomb reactor.

The soil could be sort of an organic bog soil, so that it would tend not to burn, if it is kept wet.

For Mars, another go, just as easy to build large metal enclosures enclosed inside water/ice. And a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere inside, with artificial lights.

Of course also a 1/3 bar O2 atmosphere on the surface.

So, 3 planets we might make quite a lot out of. Venus, Mars, and Titan.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-13 20:35:15)

Calliban · 2022-03-14 07:47:06

Icy bodies like Titan, provide something that we don't have in space: an enormous heat sink. From a construction economics point of view, it would be greatly beneficial for something like a Bernal Sphere to be arranged with concentric decks, rather like an onion. But that is difficult to do in space, because the waste heat generated by all those decks and processes therein, needs to be dumped into space. An enormous and expensive radiator would be needed. But on an icy world, heat can be dumped by pumping melt water or even liquid hydrocarbons through a heat exchanger. In principle, this allows habitats to be very efficient in terms of their use of internal volume and almost arbitrarily large.

The hab itself could be made from a shell of ice around the edges. Or it could be steel. Either way, a habitat with a volume 1 cubic kilometre, decked out with 10m between decks, would contain 100km2 of suburban living space. Each deck could be independently cooled using boiling ethane pumped from one of the northern seas. Essentially, an entire nation could be housed in a few cubic kilometres of hab built around those seas.

For other icy bodies, like Ganymede, Callisto or Rhea, we could do much the same. Let the waste heat from our fusion reactor melt an ice covered lake. Then pump the melt water through heat exchangers in the hab and return it to the lake. The only thing limiting the size of the hab is the load bearing capacity of the underlying ice that we build it upon. Within that limitation, habitats could carry as many 'world sheets' as desired. We would want to separate the habs to avoid putting too much heat in one place. Submlimation from the ice lakes would build up an atmosphere. First it would be water vapour, but photolysis would gradually allow oxygen levels to build up. With enough habitats and population, and enough time, voila! A breathable O2 atmosphere.

Who needs shell worlds?

Last edited by Calliban (2022-03-14 07:59:07)

Void · 2022-03-14 18:22:19

I enjoyed your just previous post #109, Calliban.

I think that primarily, my reason for taking this current path that you have contributed to, is to show that indeed, our solar system and perhaps others adjacent may eventually under the most optimistic, responsible humanity that can be imagined, would have enormous potentials for new Frontiers.

There would be so much potential, that that, in itself might delay expansion to the Kuiper Belt and beyond. Still it may be encouraging to contemplate how many Dwarf Planets may be out there.

List of possible dwarf planets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p … 20so%20far.
Quote:

The number of dwarf planets in the Solar System is unknown. Estimates have run as high as 200 in the Kuiper belt[1] and over 10,000 in the region beyond.[2] However, consideration of the surprisingly low densities of many dwarf-planet candidates suggests that the numbers may be much lower, possibly only nine among bodies known so far.[

Hydrocarbons, and water have been mentioned as potential working fluids, but how about Nitrogen?

Pluto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
Charon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_(moon)

Eris may be more rocky, as it is more dense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwa … atmosphere

Haumea is different again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haumea
A very strange little world. Like an American football? More rocky materials available?

Done.

Atmosphere shared between Pluto and Charon? Perhaps not at this time, but perhaps in the future???
https://www.iflscience.com/space/charon … tmosphere/

Well that is getting very speculative, and it is not necessary. However, if a 1 Bar plus atmosphere were inflated primarily of Nitrogen, perhaps it might envelop Charon as well? I would anticipate that a very large magnetic shield would be desired/required, but then you would really have a big radiator.

I should think that methods you suggested for Titan, might well apply for Pluto and perhaps in modification even for Charon.

This situation then has much but Silicates and Metals might be hard to some by unless exported from further in of the solar system.
This is a very nice Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haumea_Rotation.gif
Quote:

In addition to the large fluctuations in Haumea's light curve due to the body's shape, which affect all colours equally, smaller independent colour variations seen in both visible and near-infrared wavelengths show a region on the surface that differs both in colour and in albedo.[59][60] More specifically, a large dark red area on Haumea's bright white surface was seen in September 2009, possibly an impact feature, which indicates an area rich in minerals and organic (carbon-rich) compounds, or possibly a higher proportion of crystalline ice.[48][61] Thus Haumea may have a mottled surface reminiscent of Pluto, if not as extreme.

If the red spot gives access minerals, then that really suggests that it could be a place to study much more.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-14 18:52:51)

Calliban · 2022-03-15 18:33:09

I am going to assume here that one of the conditions of humanity's colonisation of the Kuiper belt, is complete mastery of thermonuclear energy. Power per capita is taken to be 100kW. If this is the case, human population levels in the Kuiper belt are limited by only two things: (1) Availability of raw materials; (2) The ability of the surface to absorb heat without either melting or subliming into space.

This link allows vapour pressure to be calculated at different temperatures, for different substances. Useful in understanding the art of the possible.
https://www.iap.tuwien.ac.at/www/surface/vapor_pressure

This link presents the vapour pressure of water ice at low temperatures.
https://www.lyotechnology.com/vapor-pressure-of-ice.cfm

This chart goes down to -82°C, at which point the vapour pressure of ice is 0.4 microbar (0.04 Pa). This is far beneath Pluto atmospheric pressure of 1Pa. If we start using nitrogen as a coolant on Pluto, that atmospheric pressure also will rapidly climb. Pluto receives about 5TW of energy flux from the sun. This is only about a quarter of humanity's energy use on Earth. So if any significant number of people ever live on Pluto, waste heat will raise average temperature and increase atmospheric pressure quite rapidly. So we can expect water ice to remain stable on Pluto.

Worlds much smaller than Pluto would be too small to hold atmospheres even at typical KBO temperatures. I calculated the most probable speed for a number of different gases at different temperatures. Generally, the most probable speed must be ~6x smaller than equatorial escape velocity for an atmosphere to be stable against Jean's Escape over geological timescales. For carbon dioxide, the heaviest gas that is naturally available in abundance, Vp is 194m/s at 100K. So a body must have an escape velocity exceeding about 1.5km/s to retain any significant atmosphere over geological timescales.

This is problematic for any long term terraforming because water ice will sublimated into space if the surface is warmed. The solution may be to deposit solid materials like dust or tholins across the surface. The tholins especially will form an impermeable tar like layer, providing a barrier to sublimation. If surface temperature can rise to as much as 200K, then a typical 500km diameter KBO, could support 70TW of internal power generation. If energy consumption of human beings living in the Kuiper belt is 100kW per capita, then a 500km KBO could support a population of about 700 million. This is about the size that human civilisation had reached when the American continent began receiving European colonists. Pluto could presumably support much larger populations. A population of 6 billion consuming energy at a rate of 100kW each, would only take the surface temperature to 162K.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-03-15 19:32:41)

Void · 2022-03-15 20:51:55

I have had a look at your materials. Very useful for estimating just how much speculation a person can dare, without becoming too silly.

I think that the conditions for humans utilizing the Kuiper Belt, and the Oort Cloud, do suggest that both Fission and Fusion of some kind are needed. I have speculated that on some worlds it might be possible to dare to try using periodic Hydrogen Bombs, to store energy in melted water ice, with a cold ice lid. I have only resorted to that so that it could be said that we do not actually have to wait for "Fusion Reactor's".
But I believe that some type of Fusion Reactor will be created eventually 50-100 year from now, that would facilitate such habitation of these small icy worlds.

I don't know if it will at all prove true, but there has been speculation that there could be Mars sized or even Earth sized worlds out there. That would be quite optimistic to believe, but maybe.

As for the worlds that are too small for atmospheres', my notion is indeed a honeycomb shell world. That is multiple shell chambers, joined, to cover most of the surface. Large enough for most claustrophobes. You would leave some patches, perhaps large craters, void of such and quite cold, in case one of the cells leaked, then likely much of the leaked gas would condense in those cold traps before floating off into space on the solar wind, and on the push of the Sun's photons. Such small worlds may have an ocean(s) under the honeycombs, and also even mining on the ocean's bottoms. The heat sink of this would be the one "To the universe", and also the one where you phase change all the ice, and even warm the core rock.

That would be a onetime use, the phase change and core warming, but so what? There are probably lots of them out there. In a sense, phase change energy of ices, is a bit like us currently using Hydrocarbons to finance or enable, bootstrap humans to alternative energy methods, we hope eventually. I have reason to have faith that that will actually occur, but not so much with just the things we have so far.

The Honeycomb method would work well for Ceres, I think, as well, so we could practice the methods there, in conjunction with solar and fission power, before Fusion becomes deeply ironed out.

As for gravity on such words, probably centrifuge gravity simulation would be the deal, but it is possible that eventually science will crack the secrets of the human body well enough that the gravity of Ceres or Earth, would be perfectly fine for humans. Until then good places for centrifuges would be in space around the equator of such worlds, and for the very small ones, perhaps a hollow Sub-Dwarf Planet situation for those to be in approximately zero gravity at the center of such objects.

Having access to cores of smaller objects would be very important as I think it a long way off to get access to the cores of the larger ones.

Thank for your interest Calliban, and your contributions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-15 21:07:38)

Void · 2022-03-16 12:11:30

I am interested in the current activity of "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Large Ship Atomic Propulsion", as I see it's possibilities for the terraform of various worlds. But I will not insert myself, as you seem to have plenty of appropriate participants.

Hydrogen Bombs, in ice, may be too big for Mars. So, if smaller ones were possible, then that would likely be preferred. Elon Musk's orbital vacuum flash bombs may have utility, especially, if the atmosphere of Mars is doubled in thickness. But I do have an eye on in ice/water explosions for even Mars. At least the consideration of it.

Mars really is two main environments. Highlands in the Southern Hemisphere, and Lowlands in the Northern Hemisphere. Of the two, the North promises the most per environments that could host living systems.

And the Southern Ice cap has the most CO2 Ice of permanence, it seems. The Southern cap is at a higher altitude, I believe. So, to liquify it, may grant the gift of Hydropower, while encouraging the evaporation of Dry Ice to the atmosphere.

Helium 3 would be harder to incorporate into Fusion, I read, but would be less radioactive. I think that Phobos and Deimos may have some adsorbed into an internal void space inside of them. We can see.

Radioactive environments may be of use for Terraforming Mars, as they can produce food and Oxygen compounds that may be of use for Microbes that may produce greenhouse gasses and fuel.

This article might be seen as supportive of that: http://www.sci-news.com/biology/subseaf … ew%20study.
Quotes:

Subseafloor Microbial Communities Survive on Products of Radioactive Process, Study Suggests

http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge8 … olysis.jpg

But humans could increase the effectiveness of this process by injecting CO2 into the sediments, I believe, and also other nutrients the microbes would need for growth.

I guess that where I am going with this is to suggest that if radioactivity is a byproduct of this potential method to utilize/terraform, Mars, it makes sense to also see if you can produce organic materials of use. Terraforming gasses, and perhaps even rocket fuel, machine fuel.

The additional question would be if humans could manage to run a river of water down into Hellas for Hydro Power, and for the water. Could that water be relatively clean of radioactive poisons? Hellas is definitely the first place where you might have a non-nuclear sea, even if it will likely be covered with ice for the most part.

I can sort of think of ways, but I don't really want to set a pointer to a certain method at this time as it might cause the stream of thoughts to forget or miss various options for just one, chosen too early from among possibilities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-16 12:33:02)

Void · 2022-03-16 13:26:24

Jumping back to Sub-Dwarf and Dwarf, Oort and Rogue Planets, sort of.....

It seems to me that if you had such an object, and a more ideal one, whatever it turns out "Ideal" would be, if you are beyond or at the limits of the solar wind, a bit like the Bussard Ram Jet Starship, you could "Filter Feed" out of the very thin molecular soup of the cosmos. Sort of like sponge.

Then if you had a bit of propulsion, your world would become like a Jelly Fish.

I have seen notions of building Stars, but really, if you have Fussion and Fission reactors, why do that? Why not filter the dust out for solid materials, and use the Hydrogen for fuel? At least the small fraction of heavy Hydrogen.

I would think that shock waves where two bodies of gas collided would be good places for "Civilizations" to feed. Also Stellar Nurseries, but of course it would be way too much work to "Fly" a small world to such a place. Rather you would likely need to send a ship to take over some small world already in the Stellar Nursery. Cradle Robbers, I guess. Unhook your psychological baggage on that, I would recommend.

But that might be much more efficient than Dyson Spheres.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-16 13:32:14)

Calliban · 2022-03-16 16:43:31

If one were looking to hitch a ride into the Oort cloud and weren't in any hurry, one could use a steam rocket to cancel the relatively small 4 km/s orbital velocity of a KBO. The body would fall towards the sun. A Jupiter gravity assist would allow it to leave the solar system with a velocity of 15 km/s. It would take 600 years to reach the inner Oort cloud, some 2000AU from the sun; 20,000 years to travel 1 light year and around 80,000 years to reach the nearest star. A long time to wait, but given that the KBO is effectively a world, with sufficient deuterium and other resources to support a large population for thousands of years, people living in the world ship may be content to take their time.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-03-16 16:49:23)

Void · 2022-03-16 20:34:36

I think that your posts are very useful to put boundaries or measures on what is approximately possible.

I feel that in all of this, we can possibly look at things from different angles, and maybe see new values in a situation.

It does not seem likely that in the Oort cloud there would be trade between worlds, widely separated, except, if metals were sent to baby settlements to get them bootstrapped up, and then I would imagine that the payback would be more room for settlers eventually, and also, information and new ways to look at things.

Our remnants of old cultures on this planet, often see little value in building new, as they often run-on books and traditions that say that they already know what it is that all people must do to be OK.

In my opinion these things have been useful foundations for what we have now, but the great danger is that they may try to snuff innovative emergences of new things, as they do not fit what was already declared to be perfect in the records of pattern for a so-called civilization.

The Alpha Male breeder problem is one thing. It threatens to breed the human race back to the stone age in my opinion. Parts of our popular scientific community are participants in favoring this problem. Certainly, many political and other principalities of power are also participants in this. We ride a "Knifes-Edge" in avoiding a world filled with "Lotus Eaters", and "Brutal Breeding Results". I could really get myself in trouble here, but the idea of "The best and brightest", needs examination in my opinion.

Let me explain an example. The NAZI era went along with the Assembly Line era. It did favor the relatively crude use of raw materials, in order to build economies. The competition of nations also included these economies. What was needed were specialists, a few at the top to think, and most people to be turned into "Meat Robots" to work in factories. That was the material priority, and it did make sense, at that time. It got lots more for lots more people.

I have my own notions but have read a lot. I recall a French authors book, that dates back 100 years ago despairing that the French school system was adopting the China methods for teaching. He claimed that in those schools just when a young person was ready to learn to learn, the schooling system would wreck their minds with memorization methods, and that the person emerging into adulthood would be damaged forever, never to learn to think, only to be an appendage of some control system, I think is what he indicated.

I will claim to build on that. Now let's look at High School, which is what we have in the USA. Rumor has it that often some students show great promise, and yet later end up living in a "Trailer Court". I know of such a female case, where a person was a "Val-Victorian", and yet has not a career of any kind that I am aware of.

So, I am going to attribute it to this. In many cases, children that mature sooner will shine better in High School. And then the later bloomers will both be damaged by the training methods, and by being labeled as less intelligent, or badly behaved. And it is very possible that at that time they are less intelligent and may be badly behaved as they are not as developed either in intelligence or maturity.

I don't know if it is still considered as true, but one article I read a long time ago suggested that Neanderthal children would be fully grown at 16. By the gauge that we judge modern children, these would be the brilliant ones if school ended at age 16.

So, what I am saying is that if you cannot "Bake" a child to high performance in a shorter time, then what the human race needs is more patience with children, and a better method to upbring them, and to pay for it, longer life spans, and/or machine robots.

It is my opinion that many gene pools on the planet have been damaged by the breeding of excessive Alpha males, who are regarded much more highly than is going to be useful for a technological based civilization.

Excessive verbal skills can be part of the problem, and the ability to fit into an organized violence entity as well, may be a problem.
This unfortunately in my opinion leads to the displacement of intelligent people out of the gene pools.

I could say more, but I think you should kind of get it by now.

Certain cultures and sub-cultures are a path to back to the Stone age, in my opinion. What impresses many does not so much impress me.

------

A possible value of the inhabitation of many worlds, is that even if some of them become possessed by populations on their way back to knuckle dragging, others may be remote enough from them to not be physically "Food" for the regressions.

So, indeed, you mentioned an interesting possible future way to help achieve that to another star system, also what might be quite valuable might be worlds that even leave the Oort cloud to become rogue planets. And it would also be important in some ways perhaps to appropriate some rogue planets.

The "Healthy" worlds could still transmit information if they wished to, but would to a large degree out of the physical reach of regressive cultures.

I consider that to be a good path for the human race.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-16 21:05:39)

Void · 2022-03-20 10:48:09

Mars_B4_Moon has been dropping off some valuable items here and there. I am moving some here.

From "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Rocket Labs Neutron Rocket ", Post #25:
https://interestingengineering.com/spac … -panels-33

IMM-β: Rocket Lab's new space solar panels have a 33.3 percent conversion efficiency

From "Index» Terraformation» Mercury", Post #17:
Quote:

I think this also could be posted in the Asteorid-Mining topic but I'm having trouble finding it
Posting the Mercury news here for now
'There Could Be 16 Quadrillion Tons Of Diamonds On The Planet Mercury Suggests New Research'
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecarte … 6c9915b27e

I think that in general the above demonstrates that new information and creation is constantly changing what will be "Best Practices" per objectives and abilities for accessing the solar system.

The access to Mars could be changed, as solar panels that are lighter and more efficient, may suggest that an electric driven method may be very good for booting up a Martian infrastructure. While Metha lox will still have value, the new methods may supplement it.

I myself am currently more comfortable with Magnetic Bubble drives, but Ion drives and other possible electrically driven drives may emerge as well.

Currently it is still suggested that Metha Lox will be manufactured on Mars using solar power. Well this would be a possible way to get solar panels to drive themselves with the assistance of other hardware to the orbits of Mars.

The possibility that Mercury may have a large amount of Carbon could be very important. Solar Cells?
https://baogroup.stanford.edu/index.php … solar-cell
I only mention that as a side possibility.

I am beginning to think that Mercury may be a very interesting planet to invest effort into.

Among it's possible charms are the low axis tilt. Our Moon, and Callisto, Ganymede and maybe Ceres may share that. Let me check on Ceres again. (So far I am seeing 4 degrees on the axis, which is not too bad).
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/03 … rface-ice/
Quote:

What we learn from the paper just published in Geophysical Research Letters is that in the last three million years, Ceres’ axial tilt has ranged from 2° to 20°. The last time of maximum obliquity of 19° was about 14,000 years ago, while its current tilt is just 4°, meaning seasonal effects over the course of a current Cerean year (4.6 Earth years) will be slight.

In this case, (Ceres), I am not worried about deposits of ices, rather I am interested in "Heliostat usage", and feel that worlds with a small tilt, in general will make it more likely that you can simplify the devices to get a useful output to a process.

Nevertheless, this article speaks to ice: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/ice-in-ce … lt-history

The tilt of Mercury: ~2 degrees
https://validsense.com/132250/#:~:text= … anets%20do.

The tilt of the Moon: ~ 5 degrees
https://www.eclipseaviation.com/does-th … axis-nasa/

Tilt of Callisto:
https://www.eclipseaviation.com/does-th … axis-nasa/
Quote:

These orbital variations cause the axial tilt (the angle between rotational and orbital axes) to vary between 0.4 and 1.6°. The dynamical isolation of Callisto means that it has never been appreciably tidally heated, which has important consequences for its internal structure and evolution.

Tilt of Ganymede:
These orbital variations cause the axial tilt (the angle between rotational and orbital axes) to vary between 0.4 and 1.6°. The dynamical isolation of Callisto means that it has never been appreciably tidally heated, which has important consequences for its internal structure and evolution.
Quote:

These orbital variations cause the axial tilt (the angle between rotational and orbital axes) to vary between 0 and 0.33°. Ganymede participates in orbital resonances with Europa and Io: for every orbit of Ganymede, Europa orbits twice and Io orbits four times.

Tilt of Europa (Why not): I guess it does not matter much. I think the ice shell does slide about on the ocean. But it is a real radiation infested surface. Not impossible in the future, but not low hanging fruit by any means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(m … 7s%20ocean.

I suppose that there are other worlds where tilt may matter, but the above should be enough for now.

Mercury and the Moon may have thick ice deposits: https://www.foxnews.com/science/moon-an … posits-ice

A quote from Terraformer:

To secure a planet it is not necessary to colonise it in its entirety, only to secure the most valuable locations. The Lunar poles and Subterran point. Mercury's poles. The equatorial region of Ceres. Hold these, prevent access to their volatiles and anchor points for beanstalks, and independent colonies cease to be viable.

The above may be true more or less, I don't care to obsess about control and ownership, but it is true that both Mercury and the Moon have islands of relative habitability at their poles. Or so we think so far.

In the case of Mercury, they are at the most habitable upstream part of the solar system and now it is claimed that vast Carbon Deposits may be available on the planet.

So, the missing part is Nitrogen. However it seems likely to me that there will be a minor presence of it in the ices and perhaps underground.

Mercury will be very hard to "Go To". So, I presume that Nuclear Fission will be desired. Can you shoot CO2 out of a nuclear rocket and get good results? If you have low grade diamonds and graphite/Carbon and rocks you can have CO2.

If you have CO2 and Water, then you can do Metha Lox.

And the Solar Wind and Photons will help to deliver heavy cargos from inner planets outwards.

Seems lie it fits together rather well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-20 11:56:55)

Void · 2022-03-20 18:36:55

This is on my mind now per Mercury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_O … ropulsion)
Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)

Getting a substantial settlement on the poles of Mercury likely to be extremely hard, how about that method?

Taking a Starship to Mercury, from say the Moon.

Once you have production facilities on Mercury, then you have the flow of the solar wind and photons on your side per projecting mass outward.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-20 18:38:15)

Void · 2022-03-22 10:02:54

Well, some more from: Mars_B4_Moon
Index» Terraformation» Terraforming Mercury, Post #21

https://www.universetoday.com/128531/terraform-mercury/

There still remains a vast amount of the unknown per the natures of terrestrial planets and the Moon.

But if there is an abundance of Carbon on Mercury, and ice deposits in its poles, the suggestions of an "Upside(s)" for the planet are encouraging. The real downside for Mercury is the propulsion energy required to get things there in the first place.

At this time, it seems certain that there will be vast energy resources to obtain for the planet. Also likely a sufficient amount of organic materials to sustain some human population(s).

And there appear to be vast energy reserves to use to propel manufactured goods from the planet to elsewhere by the flows of the Solar Wind and Photons. And I might also suggest that if you had solar concentrators, those could do propulsion using CO2 as a fluid. I have already indicated that nuclear propulsions are going to be important, particularly for propelling the set-up materials for human and robot settlement(s) of the planet.

We also have the good fortune that in some ways the planet resembles the Moon, and in others such as gravity, it resembles Mars.

So, when and if the Moon and Mars have been reasonably 'Set-Up", then Mercury might be an asset that could be very beneficial to humans and their machines.

For Mercury, I would be rather shy about setting up orbital habitats. I guess it could be done for great effort, but a preference might be to both build synthetic gravity and space medicine to extend the abilities of humans to occupy they planets surface. But if all else fails I guess that orbital assets might have their place. Certainly orbital power stations might make the night side of the planet much more available to animated objects, which can include humans.

Certainly the poles are the low hanging fruit, but I also wonder if you went with domes, primarily of metals, not so much transparencies, then with multiple layers, it should be possible to have buildings on the day side of the planet.

The sunshield for the solar probe suggests how to do this: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … olar-probe
Quote:

Parker Solar Probe’s heat shield is made of two panels of superheated carbon-carbon composite sandwiching a lightweight 4.5-inch-thick carbon foam core. To reflect as much of the Sun’s energy away from the spacecraft as possible, the Sun-facing side of the heat shield is also sprayed with a specially formulated white coating.
Credits: NASA/Johns Hopkins APL/Ed Whitman
Download additional multimedia from NASA Goddard's Scientific Visualization Studio

So, surprise! I guess the Carbon is the thing on Mercury, also using the thermal insulation of vacuum, and a reflective coating.

I am guessing that for lifting materials off of Mercury, you can have Metha Lox, Mass Drivers, Skyhooks, and maybe nuclear fission. Combinations of those to get to a very low orbit, and then maybe solar methods to further project the payloads to various destinations.

-----
I have been wondering about synthetic gravity as well, for Mercury. As I have said I prefer it on or near the surface of the planet. Clearly any number of protections can be obtained from the planet at the near surface locations.

Magnetic bearings for this like Magev Trains, might be a big part of them. However, at the hubs I also consider fluids, such as air bearing methods and maybe even flotation on water. Seals would be important, but volatile losses would occur, so some polar craters might be good places for this as leaked materials may well condense out into the cold and so you could reduce long term losses of them from such devices.

I also am aware that Mercury has a magnetic field, so propulsions in low and high orbits may be assisted by electrodynamic tethers.

But it might also make sense to add magnetic fields to the surface of Mercury, and then use those to attract to and repel from when in the orbit of the planet.

So, if that were done around the equator, then you might have to put up with a certain amount of permanent Oxygen loss, presuming that Oxygen was a gas used in part to levitate synthetic gravity machines near the planets surface.

Certain possible methods to use CO2 to push on synthetic gravity machine hubs also could be tried, but of course then you have to make that compatible with breathable gas mixtures inside of the machines proper. In that case your outer seals could hold in CO2 against vacuum, and inner seals would be needed to keep the levitating CO2 gas from contaminating the breathing mixtures.

That's plenty.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-22 10:47:17)

Void · 2022-03-22 19:28:40

On the furthering of the sub-topic of Mercury, Isaac Arthur has a nice video that is a few years old.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … ORM=WRVORC

I have probably gotten a lot of my thinking from authors such as him.

However, I think the exitance of large amounts of Carbon, was a new thing that our member "Mars_B4_Moon" called attention to recently.

So, where Isaac Arthur mentions Fluids, Water, and heat engines on Mercury, it is apparent to me that conserving water will be a good notion.
Using Carbon Dioxide as a Heat Engine Fluid will be very likely to be a big payoff. And the Carbon will have many other uses.

I also wonder if the solar wind captured in the magnetic field of Mercury could be harvested for Hydrogen for water and also Helium for Export. I can think of various technological methods to try using to do that.

So, Mercury may really be a prize, but not before the Moon and Mars, I am rather sure. But it will likely be a key possession for humans in the future.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-22 19:35:53)

Void · 2022-03-23 12:39:43

I ran across an article that indicated that some rubble pile asteroids seem to have originally been comets.

I am puzzling about that and also Phobos and Deimos:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ar-AAVmJPz
https://bigworldtale.com/science/near-e … years-ago/
https://bigworldtale.com/science/astero … nct-comet/
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1125150

In the early solar system, I believe that the "Snow Line" for water ice was in front of the asteroid belt, so it may have been more like a comet reservoir.

I am thinking that if a comet split up near Mars, as passing too close, some interesting things might have happened.
For some comets, breaking up is not that hard to do.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 141522.htm

So, this might fill several orders for needs to capture objects to Mars. If one or more pieces actually hit the planet or one or more pieces passed by, and some sort of were positioned to be captured, some interesting things might happen. The idea of a binary asteroid leaving one piece in orbit or Mars has already existed. Either the partner is lost to solar space or impacts the planet.

I think that the impactor version is more interesting. An impactor comet of size might eject materials to orbit from itself, and from Mars, while the fragment remaining in orbit of Mars would also contribute to resulting orbital materials.

If the orbital fragment were still icy, I presume, that the ice would vaporize off over time.

But the impactor fragment(s) might temporarily inflate the atmosphere of Mars both by adding materials, and by heating the atmosphere for hundreds or thousands of years. That inflated atmosphere might help to modify the orbits of any moons that may have resulted. It may be that if it could be identified when it rained on Mars, that you might identify about when this might have happened. This would presume that Mars did not typically generate rain, at least not in later periods. Also, the existence of oceans might also signify when this happened. I believe that it is thought that oceans may have existed twice. The second time was rather brief.

I do not dispute the potentials of rings, and other features over time that were other than the above, that might have modified the entire progression of what happened over the long time of the existence of Mars.

But the moons are very porous, and the theory of how they get captured is expected to involve tidal forces and atmospheric drag to circularize their orbits. I think that a fragmented comet origin might be a significant portion of the story.

Porous moon(s)? https://www.universetoday.com/58923/cou … %20success.
Quote:

While scientists now agree that the moon is very likely not hollow, vast caverns may exist within the moon, and it might be a porous body instead of solid. The Mars Express spacecraft made a close flyby of Phobos on Wednesday to help provide more data on the interior of Phobos, and all indications are the event was a big success.

It would also be interesting to consider if an inflated atmosphere might have been blown away over time as well, by the solar wind.

Oceans??? https://www.space.com/3933-mystery-solv … ceans.html
Might be outdated, or needing modifications.

If there were two Ocean periods, then the first might have been more like Earth, and maybe the 2nd was from a comet impact?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-23 13:22:13)

Void · 2022-03-25 12:44:48

Isaac Arthur has a couple of video productions out recently that I think complement each other.

He has some very interesting ideas about out Moon, thinking that it is likely to be "The Place". That will not please everyone here But it does not matter. I am sure that everyone here wants something built off Earth, after all the trouble to learn to work in space.

I divert here but in line with the videos, it is also interesting to have a review of Moons of the Solar system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n … satellites
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n … System.jpg
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n … tem_v7.jpg

Oceans in Space:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3

Moon: Mega City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPWuS6Ts41E

The Moon one has a few things that are a reach, such as black holes, but I like quite a lot in this. And it may be that I am just an outdated human. Maybe black holes will be a thing.

I do have this:

If you did it on Mars, you might have to cope with water tables, but I don't think that is going to be too hard.

You melt-mine a cone cavity, and create Oxygen, maybe extract other volatiles, and make machines and solar power equipment. You also make floors as you go down. A Vacuum and Refractory brick should help to keep the molten materials controlled.

Using a salt bath may allow the temperatures to be lower.

https://gadgets360.com/science/news/oxy … nt-2167010

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech … moon-dust/

So, you then also have a high temperature thermal storage for Lunar Night Energy. Of course, maintaining thermal values that are suitable inside of the inhabited floors will be an issue.

But you have a just below you source of Oxygen. Your problem may be to recover the Carbon from air breathed out by humans.

Bringing Carbon from Asteroids or Mercury might be a solution. Also bringing Nitrogen from Venus may be helpful.

I am not so eager to Terraform the Moon, but "The future belongs to those who will be there". Which will not be me.

Done.

Oh! I guess I am not done.

I would think to go so far to bring lots of water to fill some craters with seas, ice and ice armor needed.

I also included the video about Oceans in space, as I anticipate that to get to the cores of other moon, in some cases you extract the ices and turn them into sea worlds. Then you can leave an ocean over the cores, and access the cores.

Maybe similar for Dwarf Planets.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-28 19:10:44)

Calliban · 2022-03-26 07:41:16

Void, good find. Isaac Arthur has some very interesting ideas.

Void · 2022-03-26 10:34:45

Agreed. He does go way out there sometimes, but that is OK. It can be like increasing your weights at a gym. As long as you know when boundaries need to apply to profit in reality.

I am looking a bit beyond what was in my previous post, at the Heliosphere, the Kuiper Belt, and the Oort Cloud.

I am thinking of a derivation of the Bussard Ram Jet, but not really, exactly.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_r … k%20Cosmos.

Of course I am thinking magnetic fields, and bow shock effects, stuff like that.
Maybe pictures are better than words in this case: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=he … RE&first=1

https://collaborate.princeton.edu/en/pu … eliosphere
And this is me, reading that: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

As far as I can tell, there could be "Worlds" that might be able to be a base to collect interstellar mass from, or ideally at a site of collision between two magnetic fields. I am aware that it will be very tenuous. But, my thinking is that this could possibly be a path that intelligent life might take, rather than to go to weird planets orbiting alien suns.

If you want a weird motivation for aliens to maintain feral populations on such weird planets, that could be that they would be amused, and also might be able to collect adaptive genetic materials from those feral/guided zoo/pet populations. In other words, you would plant Earth life on another world, and let a form of guided Darwinism take place. At the root of these things would still be more or less Earth genetic patterns. So, the discoveries might have values that could be applied to a collection of life forms of a galactic civilization, or sub-galactic civilization.

The other reason to do it was given to me by someone else. The Polynesian reason. The idea would be to settle a certain number of worlds with your "Offspring???", but then avoid excessive contact, as if one of these becomes too "Woke", or some other mass mental illness, it might not rub off on the other.

In other words, if you have a certain number of settled worlds in relative isolation from each other, the by statistics, some will be in a state of intelligent awareness, while others may have fallen. Sometimes the fallen might be resurrected to higher levels, by careful interventions.

All speculative.

That would then call for versions of humans suitable for careful and almost entirely clandestine interventions of the various "Islands" when it seems worth the trouble. And then also to collect adaptive genes.

Perhaps this could all be done in computer simulations, but I guess computer simulations may not end up as actually tested against reality.

Path for Humans? I wouldn't know. Seems like we will not have enough people to populate the Earth pretty soon.

Artificial Wombs, and Robots to seed the "Islands"?

Some of the islands may be in Oort Cloud worlds???

Done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx7NdxTulk

Last edited by Void (2022-03-26 10:54:29)

Void · 2022-03-27 08:25:15

Here, my purpose is to present alternatives, not to disrupt.

This is rather an old article, but Mars, Phobos, and Deimos are much older, and likely haven't changed much since the article originated.
https://spacefuture.com/archive/the_dei … pany.shtml
Quote:

The Deimos Water Company

Am I sure? No. Just grabbed the article. Others may do as well.

Isaac Arthur: Asteroid Mining: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

i am setting up for possible future posting.

I do think that it may turn out that practice in Asteroid mining could be initiated on the Marian moons. Even if it proves not true that you can get water and Carbon from the moon(s), Mars is available for that.

------

Typically for the Martian moons, I anticipate a basic base of say 150 people before looking into the moons of Mars. Refueling on Mars and then launching up to the moons.

But an alternative could be to go direct to the moons from Earth/Moon. As I have said, I am presenting alternatives.

I think that the idea of reuse has served SpaceX well, but an idea of repurposing may be good as well.

There are several "Catching points" to the Starship that I would like consideration on, for the idea of working around them.

As it is, the Starship, must use propellants thermally protected in small tanks inside the ship, protected by the insulation of vacuum, and a metal barrier, the shell of the ship.

So, you cannot store Methane and Oxygen long term in the ship's main tanks, without active cooling and active cooling will be too heavy and energy consuming.

But, we know that the James Web Telescope has a sunshield that is likely a bit light weight, so that sort of thing could help. But even if you get to Mars with a ship with extra propellants, then you cannot afford to aerobrake, as that will boil the liquids. You could not land with that load anyway.

Those who hate ballistic capture, should stop reading now. I do think that the Hohmann Transfer, may be to only way to transport humans to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, with maximum safety.

So, I am just gassing out ideas, here, don't get bent into pretzels over it. Lets consider "open options" on both reuse and Ballistic Capture vs. Hohmann Transfer.

Elon Musk is talking about eventually having 1000 ships.

Let's consider at least two.
1) With Heat shield, Hohmann Transfer, aero burn, either to ground or orbit.
2) Heat Shield optional, Ballistic Capture, likely no aero burn, use drop tanks.

#1, is relatively understood at this point but usually is expected to land on Mars, and then you have to refuel it on the surface. But you might aero burn to orbit, refill in orbit and then land. In such a case, you need propellant tanks, for the landing and the later assent back to orbit. You would need extra size for that, as if you were to stay a day or two on the surface, you could expect some boil off. I am not entirely sure I like this but it would get a landing on Mars, and also on the visit mineral/ice samples could be collected to bring back to Earth. Lets just say that #1 has a lot of unfinished business. I guess if you had mid sized assent tanks, you might stay for weeks??? Then you could check more out about the site. The assent tanks would not be enough to go back to Earth. You would have to refill from #2 in Mars orbit, for that. But then lifting to orbit of Mars from the surface would require less propellants.

Note: If cargo ships were sent to Mars prior to #1 and #2, it should be possible to drop off some probes to further analyze the moon(s), prior to a commitment to all this.

#2 , would be sort of a propellant depot slash, moon base ship. It could be composed of any number of Starship components, and might also include ion propulsion. But that is not necessary. So, obviously the idea would be to retrieve samples from the moons to bring back to Earth to better evaluate potential. Quit a bit of hardware might be parked on one of the moons.

During the stay, on the Mars surface, methods to ice mine, and create propellants could be done on a pilot scale, to prove it out, and a better assessment of local resources confirmed.

I would say just a small number of humans on the mission. After all for each human to the surface you need life support for the whole mission and spacesuits, etc. Quantities of those may not be large at that time, yet. And also testing them in a real Martian environment would be useful, for creating better versions of them before massive production levels were employed.

Then, hopefully, back to Earth.

By no means do I think that this is a finished product at this time.

I think that the idea of hardware reuse can be a bit wrong when you are working on the edge of the bubble of capabilities. Allowing extra tankage, and extra propellants, may give some better assurance of initial success.

After SpaceX has invested in a Starship Assembly Line system, I think that it might be a bad investment to skimp on resources for the human mission.

Of course, a better evaluation of the moons of Mars by automation(s) also makes a lot of sense prior to any implementations such as this.

Not Done:

I do not count on ice inside the moons. However, I do think that such things as an internal atmosphere, and the processes of adsorption, and absorption may cause things to be included inside of these moons that may be useful.

The mission I suggested is not dependent on mining the moons to get back to Earth. However, the mission would be useful to further evaluate the situations for Mars/Phobos/Deimos. It would also partially validate the spacecraft hardwares.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-28 19:11:01)

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