Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-02-11 11:41:15

I guess, thinking about the materials of post #50, just prior, I have a thing for frozen ocean worlds that are tidally locked, that orbit a Red Dwarf, or even perhaps just possibly an Orange Dwarf Star. I guess I would also be interested in such that is not tidally locked.

I guess, since it is in my imagination, we could suppose a replica of Earth positioned in many ways. It would be mostly ice-covered ocean, or at the extreme ice down to the bottoms of the oceans.

Tidal locked would be quite interesting. Let's say the Atlantic Ocean faced the star. We think that the Earth put to a Mars like solar flux would still manage to have open water, so, we might presume to reduce the solar flux more if we want ice covered seas. For a Red Dwarf, that means moving quite far out of the so called "Habitable Zone". Perhaps into the equivalent of some place in the Asteroid belt? Maybe 1/3rd or 1/4th of the solar flux of our Earth?

But the further you move away from the Red Dwarf star, the less probability of tidal locking. So, such a world may or may not be tidal locked.

The further away the more likely to hold an atmosphere. Not tidal locked, may indicate a possible useful magnetic field. However even tidal
locked "Earths" might have some magnetic field. I have also received the notion that solar flares do not so much emerge from the equator of Red Dwarfs, but rather from higher latitudes of the star, so it may be that they are not as harmful to atmosphere and biosphere as feared.

The behavior of greenhouse gasses might be a concern on these worlds. If water never runs, it may be that CO2 could just keep building up from volcanism. An alternative could be photosynthesis to capture the CO2 into the oceans as biological output. But of course, then the life has to live in the ice, or the ice must be rather thin.

But there can be a number of interesting things to go on that we do not currently have on our Earth.

CO2 could collect in the cold spots as dry ice. For a tidal locked world of course, that would be the dark side. For a rotating planet it would be the polar ice caps. As we think we know for Mars, such planets would have variable tilts and so shifting climates.

It may be that Mars, and extrasolar terrestrials that are very cold, will get locked up in this way, and even by air borne dust. If the ice bodies get completely covered in dust and regolith, then it may not be very possible for water vapor to enter the atmosphere.

However, Flare Stars, if they Flare, might provide enough short-term heat to melt ice, and so then to hydrate oceans beneath the ice. This would not be unlike Antarctic Dry valley lakes where only about 2 weeks in the summer can generate enough heat in the atmosphere and in the sunlight striking the ice, that ice may melt. And yet even with just that, bodies of water are generated. So, I speculate, and emphasis on speculate, that such worlds may harbor bodies of water even if greatly outside the so-called Habitable Zone.

This post is intended as nourishment for the imagination. It is possible that it is going to prove sometimes somewhat true for some worlds, but often not for others.

I imagine such a cold ocean world, where you would have a sun overhead constantly. You would have parabolic mirrors that would capture heat and provide electricity. Perhaps your home(s), or even a city would be inside a translucent dome of ice with steel re-enforcement grids. That dome may protect from radiation. Also, inside the ice dome winds would be stopped, and also perhaps some O2. Temperatures somewhat moderated. And then your parks to be illuminated by some means.

As I have said, this is for imagination.

I will repeat something I have pondered about "Ice Ball Earth". They imagine just that. A cue ball snowball, I think. But of course, some rock would be exposed on mountains. Also, evaporation from ice would dig holes into any ocean frozen all the way to bedrock. And so, feedback for these holes would be the deeper the hole the more greenhouse effect, The more greenhouse effect and evaporation with catabatic winds, the deeper the hole, until you might dig down to bedrock.

Our oceans are at least 10,000 feet deep in many places, so, in this case this would add a thickness to the atmosphere at that location. 10,000 extra feet of atmosphere would likely elevate the temperatures under the sun quite a lot.

So, in my opinion you could have forests and rivers, etc. down in those holes while the rest of the planet was frigid. And this might be a terraform technique that could be done on cold terrestrials, particularly tidal locked ones.

In such a case colder might be better, as you might not prefer wet based glaciers, as they may try to fill in the hole faster. In that way perhaps worlds where most of the seas are frozen down to bedrock might be preferred. Perhaps allowing for occasional bodies of water under ice here and there.

Atmospheric displacement by the displacement of ice, would not only possibly dig or be made to dig such holes, but the evaporated ice would then be presumed to thicken the ice sheets elsewhere, displacing atmosphere to the holes.

It might be noted that if such holes existed the thickened atmosphere would not only be more likely to warm up, but would be greater protection from radiation, and radiation is a problem with flare stars.

This entire post is for giggles, just some fun. Maybe some Sci-Fi geeks can do something with it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-11 12:13:00)

Void · 2022-02-11 12:15:56

I would like to move back to solar such as this proposal from #44 post:

Needing a break though....

So, the above diagram suggests the blending of Solar Panels, and thermal solar, and perhaps even greenhouses.

These people must have been thinking along those lines:
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

Maybe NASA has something of worth as well:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/high-tempe … lar-cells/

My best guess as to why this has not been considered before, is it is new, and not easy to adapt to urban places, but not impossible. For instance, I could imagine "Parks" where solar energy might be collected in this way, and both electricity and heat distributed by a multi-home distribution system. It might not be that bad, and if it is summer, people might welcome some shade from the Heliostats.

Peter Zeihans materials can be helpful to understand:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pe … &FORM=VIRE
Images:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pe … BasicHover
Picture Quote: (Solar Energy)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0
Picture Quote: (Wind Energy)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

North America has a good match between needs and availably of solar energy, in my opinion. Europe is not so fortunate nor perhaps Eastern Asia. So, it might not benefit them as much is it may benefit North America. It is less likely that people would seek these paths even if they do not have the benefit of Shale Oil and Gas and are more in need of energy.

Much of North America, even into central Canada, appears to have approximately as much potential of the Sahara Desert, strangely. I guess it is not surprising. The Spin of the Earth keeps North America cooler and dryer perhaps than it should be at its latitudes.

Peter Zeihan says that only the areas in red make full sense for solar. I guess by his calculations this is true.

But for North America, at least, many areas would like to have thermal heating for houses. Solar Panels-Electric do not provide that. Solar panels thermal, don't get that warm. Solar thermal with a power tower typically needs turbines to make electricity, and I am not aware of them being involved in home heating directly from thermal.

Of course, solar panels-electric, have a lot of waste heat which could heat homes. Cooling the panels can in some cases improve efficiency of electric capture.

These solar pockets:

Could be of various sorts. Oven hot, although then they have to be built for it. Or more moderate. Moderate ones might even host a greenhouse activity.

I see the use of Heat Pumps as sensible for these, at least the moderate versions. When you have solar power, you run your heat pump. Of course, if you were connected to a grid or batteries, you may work outside of the sunshine, if for some reason you wanted to.

I feel that it would be likely to have a hot fluid reservoir somewhere to store the heat.

Then, it might just make sense to have anti-solar cells that you could flow the hot fluid through to generate electricity when solar is not viable. In this case it is possible that the advantage then goes to places which have cold temperatures, but lots of sunshine.

The cost of the heliostats of course is going to be an issue. The more mass produced, the lower the cost per unit I presume. If Tesla-Bots, can be presumed to be buildable at a reasonable cost, then these would be much simpler robots.

However, some complexity might be wanted. To avoid accumulating snow is one matter. To crouch down in the wind might be another. I haven't quite visualized such a machine yet.

Of course, I have been speaking for Earth. And I do hope that dark orange and even light orange may become viable for solar.

But I am rather interested in this for Mars as well, as you must know by now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-11 13:05:02)

Void · 2022-02-11 20:23:39

I have a funny vision of transformer robots in one's yard with mirrors, and able to crouch down to avoid snow loads and wind. Maybe they could even walk. That would be really weird. But of course, to keep costs down, just the functions needed would be included.

But I divert back to Proxima Centauri.

Anton Petrov does a very good job; I really like his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZH3erp4qjs

The new planet would likely not have a useful atmosphere due to the star's magnetic activity. However, the day side temperature of 90 Degrees C, would not be that bad, if you consider that the planet is likely tidally locked.

If it is true that many types of ices would be found on the dark 40% of the planet, its low mass is attractive. It would still be hard to land on without an atmosphere. But to launch would be quite good. I would expect this planet could really be useful as energy should be quite abundant.

But to start in the system, I would think we would want to find a dwarf planet world like Ceres, where a wide distribution of chemicals could be expected, and where solar was possible as it would be close enough to Proxima for that. I think it would be best if it were tidally locked.

So, then if you could get across the cosmic VOID , then the Dwarf Planet would be where you start, and then you would move efforts to planet "d", as I have suggested, and then perhaps try to terraform planet "b", using incredibly powerful magnetic fields.

I don't know if it would ever be possible to launch from "B" though. Well maybe.

As for "c", I wonder about moons of it.

------

This showed up today as well. It is small, but I wonder what use it could have to our intentions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxP0wYJ3gTs

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-11 20:33:39)

Void · 2022-02-12 17:52:38

I am misbehaving and not doing what I should do. This is more fun.

I querried for this, and got this:

How Deep is the black sea?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+Deep+ … b8&pc=U531

Mediterranean Sea = 17,280 feet deep.

Black Sea · Depth
7,257 feet

Dried up Mediterranean Sea:
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/ … ntent=PSR3

Images:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wh … HoverTitle
Image Quotes from the above:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

I am actually going to spew about Cold Terrestrial Planets/Snowball Earths, but just as with water it would be possible for a basin to block the flow of ice into it on a glacial planet. The result is a puddle of deep greenhouse effect atmosphere.

So, going interstellar again, and considering especially Red Dwarf and perhaps Orange Dwarf star systems, I am speculating that there could be such a thing as cold Terrestrial planets.

Configurations of planets around stars seem to have been set up by a random number generator. You can get big planets close to a star, and so I speculate that you might get terrestrials farther away from a star.

I expect that there are several randomizing forces, but one I am fond of thinking of is "Rouge Planets/Dwarf Planets" entering into star nurseries. In my opinion this would be like seeding clouds and having rain result. Of course, the Rouge objects are of different characters, and each star nursery may be different so results will be somewhat randomized just by those factors. This does also suggest a path for panspermia over the long term as well.

Anyway, after a terrestrial outside the "Habitable Zone" came into existence, critical factors may include how much Nitrogen and Argon the planet would have, and how hot is its crust, and how much water/ice it had.

I guess the Earth currently has ~.79 bars of atmosphere that are not Oxygen. Venus has ~~~3 Bars of Nitrogen. So, planets can be different in that regard. Perhaps more has been baked out of Venus rocks.

So, a critical factor for the evolution of such worlds might be if they get warm enough to foster the sublimation of ice, anywhere, where there would be a deep ice sheet.

In our solar system Titan would be too cold for it. For the icy moons of Jupiter, a little of it occurs, but without a significant atmosphere, not that much. If a mega-moon orbiting Jupiter existed with an atmosphere, it is possible that sublimation of significance could occur.

As with Mars, I think it is likely that most CO2 would be locked up as dry ice somewhere, so that would not be much help as a greenhouse gas.

Most worlds that we know of are not cue ball flat. Europa is an exception because it has basically "Wet Based Glaciation", from a very deep ocean, and lots of tidal heating.

I have spoken before of "Sublimation Pits" for cold terrestrials. If not bounded by geography, then there would be a continuing argument between Subglacial melting, cold based glaciation, and sublimation.

However, if you had a basin such as the Mediterranean Sea of Black Sea, or Dead Sea, you might have a blockage of the flow of ice from the main ice bodies.

So, it could be that you would have an atmosphere that was ~10,000 feet deeper than the expected maximum depth. And so just with Nitrogen a very significant increase in greenhouse effect for that basin.

And so even for Earth, during the said "Snowball Earth Event(s)", if such a basin existed such a trick might have occurred.

The climate in such a basin would be likely to be significantly warmer than that of the average of the surface of the planet. And this would still be true, if the total amount of atmosphere was the same as Earth for an Earth size and mass twin, at a further distance from its star.

This might make such a spot more habitable per radiation also, perhaps even for Proxima Centauri.

I likely will not get my wish, but I would like them to find a planet the size of Earth, well outside of the so called "Habitable Zone".

I don't know if they did find one, if it would be tidal locked or not. If tidal locked and say the basin I have described were presented under the high noon of that eternal day, then that would be the best thermal chances for a basin carved out of ice. But there would still be a concern, about atmospheric retention. Without an atmosphere, it would not have achieved much as per habitability, except for the possibility of an ice-covered ocean on its dark side.

A better chance for atmospheric retention is said to exist for a spinning planet. But then the basin in in the dark half of the time, I presume. Also, Mars spins and now is supposed by some not to have a magnetic field due to stratification of its core materials.

But some fun stuff to imagine about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-12 18:19:59)

Void · 2022-02-12 18:37:11

Continuing on the previous post #54, there are things against the retention of atmosphere. And if the world got cold enough it is possible that even the Nitrogen would condense on the dark side of a tidal locked planet or the poles of a spinning planet, or if tilted a certain way, on its equator. So, the atmosphere could collapse that way, even if it existed.

But if the atmosphere did exist, then for these sublimation pits there would be an indirect result of the sunshine that would possibly warm these pits, even beyond what the sunlight did.

Katabatic Wind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind
As the winds which would be very strong at times, and would become warmer and dryer on descent, swept across ice or water, it would serve to evaporate those and make sure that the basin did not fill with either. It is even possible that in such a basin, there would be snow or rain clouds, below the lip of the basin.

Done.

So, then solar energy would create an immense wind machine, and much of the energy of that wind machine would manifest in dry valleys on the sunward side of a tidal locked icy word, or the warm spots of a spinning icy world. Pretty weird way of warming up a place on the planets surface and drying it out of ice and water.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-12 18:48:21)

Void · 2022-02-13 10:37:34

I seem to have at least 3 things going through my head just now:
-Solar Energy
-Cold Terrestrial Planets
-How much Oxygen would people who lived on the bottom of the Black Sea basin have had relative to what sea level people now have?
In reverse order,

-Apparently, it would not have been that extreme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea … hypothesis
But I wonder about animals when the Med was very dried out? What would teeth and bones from fossils reveal?

-I want to use Venus to support some of the notion of possible natures of Cold Terrestrial planets. Those which would be outside of the classical Habitable Zone. I will want this for a later post: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … tions.html

-I hope to say something about solar, I am interested in the notion that in order to produce enough electricity for home heating, particularly in North America, I don't think it would be the right route to go. First of all, if your solar can produce both electricity and heat, then it may likely be more suitable to locations on the planet that have conditions similar to the average of North America, including, of course, North America.
Looking at maps, that could be parts of Internal Asia, the Andes and extreme cone of South America, maybe parts of Japan. Curiously it might include Greenland in the south, and Iceland, provided, it works out extremely well.

I will put this last material into a new post and go further with it if I can.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-13 11:53:35)

Void · 2022-02-13 10:47:57

Starting with materials from the previous post:
Quote:

-I hope to say something about solar, I am interested in the notion that in order to produce enough electricity for home heating, particularly in North America, I don't think it would be the right route to go. First of all, if your solar can produce both electricity and heat, then it may likely be more suitable to locations on the planet that have conditions similar to the average of North America, including, of course, North America.
Looking at maps, that could be parts of Internal Asia, the Andes and extreme cone of South America, maybe parts of Japan. Curiously it might include Greenland in the south, and Iceland, provided, it works out extremely well.
I will put this last material into a new post and go further with it if I can.

This morning, I encountered a video from "Just have a think". It seemed to be about a method to incorporate wind, waves, and solar into a modular sea-based energy system. It included linear Aluminum floats, PVC? sectional disk-shaped floats, I think for wave power, and solar on platforms, And also wind turbines. Also, the option to use some of the platforms for something else.

As is sometimes typical, I cannot fetch it at this time on my computer.

But the most important point to my notions of solar is that they want this obviously so that they can have more energy options, not just one, and so that they can use the infrastructure more efficiently, I note the electrical grid. If it was just wind for instance the Copper or Aluminum cables would be used less effectively. I will make a side note that they might want to consider options to send electrical power out to these platforms, at times, to fulfil some purposes. They might store hot water under the sea in big tanks, and maybe do something like OTEC at times.
One very desirable product to manufacture at sea is fresh water which you may be able to transport to users by pipeline or ship. And in that case not only can you send power out to an idle "Wind, Waves, Solar" facility but you may use lots of the peak power on site for that purpose. Fresh water is something you could store, but if pipelines, then store on the shore. Lets think Los Angeles, and to stop taking Great Basin water, to water dry California.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … ersion.php

And if you are going to the trouble of solar, perhaps involve heat pumps to pull heat off of the solar panels, and to store in the tanks.

Economical? Well, investigable at least.

What would we call that? Ocean Thermal Storage System? OTSS???

------

So, I am thinking about the energy grid. It is said that we will have to expand it greatly to go solar/wind. Even if you go nuclear, in order to heat homes with electricity, then you have to expand the grid, unless you want mom and pop nuclear plants

That's a big NO!

If you go Solar City solar, that might be very good. But still how are you going to heat your house? Well maybe that way, electric, but then you have to store electric or perhaps have a furnace for backup. I am not saying it cannot be done, rather that it might not be the only way in many cases.

It would seem to be an accident of history, that those countries that went to suburban methods for middle class, and also the automobile, now have the better adaptation per plagues. That is mass transit is sort of out, with Covid-19. If it goes electric, then somehow Americans and I suppose Canadians, have stumbled into the best path.

Alright still annoyed. This is the Video, that I can get on my phone, but not my computer. Perhaps you can do better than me: (Just have a think, "Solar, Wind, Wave. Can this Ocean hybrid platform nail all three?")

Turning back to materials of Peter Zeihan: (Images of his)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pe … HoverTitle
Picture Quote: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

The Map, I believe may show where wind and solar are most useful. However, if you add water production to the mix, I think North American coastal will be impressive as well.

If you add a method to get both electric and thermal at the same time, then I believe that perhaps the patch in the Great Plains can be expanded.

To join Energy and Water, is sort of a very good place to want to have people. The Great Plains is a bit low on water. Modern indoor farming may conserve water, and who knows maybe Texas and Gulf entities will make and pipe water up that way instead of petroleum products.

Land and labor are some problems with my notions. The Great Plains has land and not so much labor. However, Tesla-Bots and the like may give labor in large quantities, and so lower cost hardware such as Heliostats.

So, new communities could be zoned in compliance with the solar resource utilization, requirements. That is Heliostats, and solar collectors that collect both electricity and heat. Where this area will not have waves, it will have cold. Anti-Solar cells are just coming into being, I believe.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/curiosity/news/ … orks-night
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 174512.htm
https://scitechdaily.com/anti-solar-cel … -at-night/

So, you might also store energy as a heated fluid, and extract electricity during cold snaps, or cool nights.

I had this tucked away also might as well include it: https://lifeboat.com/blog/2021/09/space … -of-energy

In reality I want to see solar for places that are not optimal per Peter Zeihan, and with new so called "Green Tech" (I almost vomit), it may be possible, and with robotic labor down the road it may be affordable.

North America would however have both coasts and the Great Plains as a very large energy resource, perhaps very productive.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-13 11:51:21)

Void · 2022-02-13 11:54:13

From post #56:
Quote:

-I want to use Venus to support some of the notion of possible natures of Cold Terrestrial planets. Those which would be outside of the classical Habitable Zone. I will want this for a later post: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … tions.html

Void · 2022-02-13 11:55:24

From post #56:
Quote:

-I want to use Venus to support some of the notion of possible natures of Cold Terrestrial planets. Those which would be outside of the classical Habitable Zone. I will want this for a later post: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … tions.html

Quote:

Geoscientists studied tectonic chemistry and found that nitrogen started building up in Earth’s atmosphere three billion years ago.

Supposing we had superpowers and could manipulate the orbit and rotation of Venus? Not that I think we will, but it can possibly shed light on Cold Terrestrials if any exist around other stars.

Venus as is apparently having ~3 times the pressure of Nitrogen as does the Earth, and because it has a fluffier atmosphere due to ~90% gravity, the quantity of Nitrogen is even larger. I cannot say for sure why, but it might be due to running water and erosion by water on Earth, and the absence of that on Venus.

Let's just suppose that we put Venus out into the asteroid belt, and towards Jupiter far enough for the CO2 to liquify, and then perhaps freeze out. If the planet were still spinning, and it were cold enough, then we would expect the Dry Ice to accumulate on its poles after the crust cooled enough. As it happens there would not be much water, so not much water erosion to remove Nitrogen from the atmosphere. That is just a factor of its history previous to our imagined manipulations.

Since it was still too warm for the Nitrogen to condense out, then it would have a minimum 3 Bar Nitrogen atmosphere.

For Mars, it is thought that 2 Bars of Nitrogen/Oxygen would generate a climate similar to that of Earth's current climate.

So, this Venus might just be able to do the same at a greater distance, and with ~3 Bars of Nitrogen. Cloud conditions and dust may influence things, but just sort of a speculation on possibility.

If it is possible that the solar wind would add Hydrogen to the atmosphere at a rate greater than Hydrogen losses, then eventually it would be Hydrated, the Sulfuric Acid also would possibly yield up its' Hydrogen to form water.

And so, the possibility exists that a Terrestrial could exist outside of the calculated outer limits of the so-called Habitable zone, for our manipulated Venus that was still spinning.

I suppose it could occur that eventually Venus would generate a magnetic field due to spin and convection??? Not so sure what to believe on that. It comes from something, for Earth.

If we stopped the spin, of this alien Venus, as in Tidal locked, then the sunlight would warm more the day side and the night side would get very cold. The CO2 would migrate there. If not enough energy/atmosphere, then the Nitrogen may also condense. Don't know. Probably not, as Titan manages to avoid Nitrogen condensation, and this planet would be much warmer than that.

Anyway, should this planet no longer be dry, but to have some wetness, then I presume that gasses would be taken from the atmosphere, and locked into rocks, until the greenhouse effect were reduced to the point of limiting the amount of water erosion that could occur.

So, it might be a fight between Volcanism, and this erosion loss process.

In the case of Red Dwarf cold Terrestrial planets, it may be that tidal heating and heating from the solar wind would keep volcanism going for a long time. But, a very giant universe, and Red Dwarfs being the most common, we think, then there must be almost an infinite number of cases where this might work and lots where it used to work or never did work.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-13 12:14:38)

Void · 2022-02-13 18:26:01

Returning to the materials of post #57, I now have the video I wanted.

Solar Wind and Wave. Can this ocean hybrid platform nail all three?
YouTube · 11,000+ views · 10 hr ago · by Just Have a Think

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=So … M%3DHDRSC3

Now add some form of solar thermal, and store hot water, then use OTEC technology, which I believe the USA has considerable association with. It produces fresh water. A warm/hot water tank underwater, to store thermal energy.

For those who may not know, OTEC: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … ersion.php

I don't believe that it uses a huge temperature difference. A problem with OTEC has been to lift the cold water, takes a lot of energy. But if you have wind, you might lift it when the wind or solar or waves surge in power output. Of course, then you might need a cold-water tank. That would not be free. But then remember, you then have a source of fresh water as an added benefit. As for the warm water tank, you might make it a hot water tank. But of course, then thermal insulation is a problem, but not Imposible. For the bottom, hot water stratifies over cold water. For the top, an air gap would be somewhat insulating. For the sides then you have to have some additional solution.

The heat for the hot water tank could be from solar thermal, but also from excess electrical capacity, both offshore and onshore, should you also have onshore power.

So, I think it looks very good.

------

Let's consider the Great Salt Lake and Salton Sea.....

If your rig, which would not have to be as rugged, also prevented evaporation, then you could make the Lake expand in size. Same for the Dead Sea, or Aral Sea. Conservationists might go nuts about it, but you could leave plenty of open water. In fact, if you could reduce evaporation, you might cause many bodies of water to come into existence in the Great Basin.

During the Ice Age big lakes existed in the Great Basin., not because of more rain, but because of less evaporation.

However, if the Ecotopian bunch don't like it and you think that they are cute and cuddly, then don't do it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-13 18:48:02)

Void · 2022-02-13 21:08:33

Back to Red Dwarf planets:
https://earthsky.org/space/red-dwarf-st … itability/
Quote:

Good news for red dwarf planets
Planets orbiting red dwarf stars may not be dead zones after all. Scientists have long thought that superflares on red dwarf stars decimate most of the atmospheres on planets orbiting too close. Intense radiation would pound these worlds, making habitability unlikely. Now, an international team of astronomers announced August 5, 2021, that red dwarf planets may be safe from superflares after all. How? As it turns out, the flares erupt in the opposite direction from the planets.
The researchers published their peer-reviewed findings in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society on August 5, 2021.

I believe that Angry Astronaut mentioned this some time ago.

Trappist star system:
http://www.trappist.one/#:~:text=TRAPPI … in%20orbit.
Picture Quote:
http://www.trappist.one/#system
Again, I am just screwing around, passing time. But if these worlds have as much steam/water/ice as is thought, then some of the notions of sublimation pits that I have suggested, if that really works, then even the outer one might have a habitability spot. I think it would be hard to understand how there could be that much ice, and yet no atmosphere. So, the article about flares not being that damaging to atmosphere, may be true, at least in this case.

If that is true, maybe there will be found a planet for Proxima Centauri that has a similar thing. I still fear that the new discovery (d) that is about 1/4th the mass of Earth will not have an atmosphere. Still, what a deal if it did.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-13 21:15:10)

Void · 2022-02-14 12:37:37

Well, I have been thinking long-term Mars and short-term Mars.

Long-term, it is reported that there is enough water on Mars to cover the planet in 115 feet of water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars
Quote:

More than 5 million km3 of ice have been detected at or near the surface of Mars, enough to cover the whole planet to a depth of 35 meters (115 ft).[13] Even more ice is likely to be locked away in the deep subsurface.[14]

So, kind of ~~~~that. Anyway, enough for a 333 Millibar atmosphere, and then enough to fill any craters that it is desired to fill with water/ice.

So, then you already know my games with lakes and Heliostats, and I also consider fission heat and electricity as well.

If someone can come up with .8 Bars of Nitrogen, then of course you can have a 1 Bar atmosphere, but it takes 2 Bars to heat Mars up to the Earth average, so it will still be a cold planet. Ice then is in the game.

--------

But Short-Term, I am working on this. It is not entirely new.

A starship in an ice shaft, with tunnels 'A' and 'B' available to create.
A grey tent above, can be a minimal covering to keep dust out but let moisture in, or you could make it more elaborate. It can be remembered that the Starship may have an external lift which partly solves how to get things up and down.

Of course, we are likely to get a silly binary argument here about how it is better to lay a Starship down on the surface, and cover it with regolith. That however is an option, not a binding decision.

I would also think about putting a water balloon over the starship, and covering it from direct sunlight, but to allow Heliostats to shine treated light into the North side of the bag. Radiation protection, and perhaps some aquaculture of a primitive nature.

Again, just an option, not a football game where you have a winner and a looser.

While cold ice tubes in an ice slab seem very uninviting, especially if not pressurized with sufficient Oxygen, Tesla Robots and other automation might find them to be suitable as to avoid cosmic rays, temperature fluctuations, and dust. It is also possible that some tunnels and chambers could be upgraded to a degree with pressurization and Oxygen, but that then requires the goods to do it.

I haven't worked out what these robots and automation are going to create, but I have as you see seen an option where when you remove ice for make-up water, you then have some tunnels and chambers. It is possible that they could be useful.

It might be noted that at the bottom of the Starship, a crew quarters could be created that would be rather radiation protected. To improve it just put a bulkhead above, with a pond of water.

I am going to look at skirts/kilts.

This is to insulate with minimal materials from Earth or manufactured on Mars:

My hope is that this could be the basis for an adjustable thermal regulation.

That's plenty in my opinion. I will stop here.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-14 13:00:03)

Calliban · 2022-02-14 16:26:11

The problem with trying to rebuild a hydrosphere on Mars is that water reacts with oxides within the crust to form hydrated compounds. Large amounts of carbon dioxide may have been trapped in the same way. The present atmospheric pressure coincides exactly with the triple point of water. If atmospheric pressure rises, water melts on the surface, dissolving CO2, which then reacts with bases in the soil to form carbonates. Hence, high atmospheric pressure is unstable on Mars. The present atmospheric pressure is a stable equilibrium point.

The lower geothermal gradient on Mars and the absence of tectonics makes the problem worse, because the crust is thick and the upper mantle probably solid rock. There is a large amount of material for the water to react with and no way for tectonics to release it. Oceans, lakes and rivers would be unstable on Mars, even if we could somehow increase temperature.

This is a difficult problem to solve, as the planet lacks the natural mechanism that would recycle volatiles on Earth. We could try selectively heating parts of the surface and cooking it to 500°C all the way down to the mantle. At this temperature, carbonates will slowly decompose into CO2 and metal oxides. That means roasting a 50km layer of rock. Enormous energy resources would be needed to achieve this. Maybe TW fusion reactors will be available within the next few centuries. Such a reactor could be used to heat CO2 which is then injected at high pressure into bore holes. Neighbouring boreholes would allow CO2 and water vapour to return to the surface. Chimneys could be constructed allowing water vapour to be injected directly into the stratosphere where UV will dissociate it into hydrogen and oxygen.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-02-14 16:43:49)

Void · 2022-02-14 19:27:40

Valid concerns, I would say.

But for a fledgling solar economy, perhaps we can grant 2000 years of permission to be careless. About the time of existence of the Roman Empire? But not too careless, rather, just giving permission to aid the expansion of the human race even to nearby stars, if that is possible, and so, then in a way consuming what Mars has to offer, more than conserving it or necessarily rebuilding the planet. But I do think that a remedy would be available before 2000 years were up.

The first likely achievement is to get the atmosphere up to a mean pressure of 11 mb. I have read that at those pressures real snowfall will be possible, and temporary streams from snowmelts.

I think that any inhabitants of Mars, will want to collect any melt water.

We should want to avoid "Gushing Rivers" for the reasons you have said, and also because we should not what to have to invest in bridges and tunnels to get across such rivers. We also should think to avoid unnecessary melting of permafrost, particularly if that becomes a cost, and not a gain.

As for the North Polar ice cap, I might want to see it become an ice-covered sea. I have blabbed plenty about that.

As for the South Polar ice cap, I would like to see it as well be an ice-covered sea, but it would have to be bounded by ice dams, which are going to be tricky to maintain. And then also I would like to see a controlled flow created into the Hellas Depression.

As you have suggested, there will likely be a price to pay for this. But let's suppose we can get away with it for 2000 years, until better tech shows up to rebuild the atmosphere. In reality, I think that could show up rather soon after the habitation of Mars.

A local remedy would be nice at first. I suggest a bumpy surface mounted magnetic field to reduce losses to space first.

Other methods might be used first, but eventually I want the bumpy magnetic field, that blends into one magnetic field. That is because I want magnetic orbital propulsion methods to be available.

We do want atmospheric losses to regolith to be kept to a simmer, not a boil. So, best choices would be used. I can think of some but let's move on.

Now, let's then reduce the materials of the Martian moons, to produce orbital built structures, and also gasses to release to the Martian atmosphere to increase it. I still agree that at least we want to prohibit uncontrolled, unnecessary running surface water.

If it is possible to get the U.V. spectrum of Mars to split water, then we can increase the atmospheric pressure of the planet even more that way, since we will have strongly reduced losses to space, using a magnetic field.

By maintaining ice cover on water, we reduce the evaporation rate. By putting ice armor on the ice surface, we reduce it even more.

The objective is likely to be to bring some water vapor up to form high clouds that will warm the planet, but to control the particles if possible so that insulating clouds are favored rather than precipitation.

So, it may be possible to control the amount of water vapor going to the high cloud layer, and also to control the cloud seeds for it, by dropping correct particle sizes into it from Phobos and Deimos.

Ice armor can include the shade from Heliostats which will drop the temperature of the ice. Also, the energy collected being solar, it will have value. The Heliostats also can serve as heat rejectors/radiators.

Of course, the reduced materials from the moons can be made into things, such as orbital energy devices.

The surface Heliostats, if they had anti-solar cells on the reverse side could generate electricity at night, and maybe even the day, and give cooling control to help preserve ice. Very possibly Boring company tunnels filled with hot fluids would be used to heat these Heliostat radiator/electric generators.

Concentrated light from the Mirrors to provide the fluid heating during the day, or from light from orbital mirrors so concentrated.

------

But in the next age of lots of robots, can then Mercury be mined for metals to construct canisters with propulsion systems based on sunlight or the solar wind? If so, then fill them with Clathrates of the Atmosphere of Venus. (But only if it is morally OK, if there is no Venus life to be concerned about). Fly these out to Mars, release much of the Venus atmosphere contained to the Martian atmosphere, convert the reduced materials of the canisters to orbital objects for Mars or for places further out.

I don't think that cooling the interior of the canisters to a low enough temperature will be that hard. 7 layers of aluminum or other foil on the sunward side with vacuum between the foils, should do most or all of the cooling. And the canisters being robust could hold a significant pressure to help maintain the Clathrate of CO2, Nitrogen, Argon?

We may not care if these things take 50 years to travel from Venus to Mars. The only problem may be that liberals may want to tax the unrealized profit prior to the tanks getting to Mars. They are really, really dumb.

What do you think?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-14 20:14:17)

Void · 2022-02-15 15:40:43

Calliban,

I have reconsidered your position. It does make sense that except for the needs of a population, there is no need to melt any ice. Locking the water up in polar ice is useful for the reasons that you suggested. Farming and park settings for 1,000,000 people on Mars would not require the melting of polar ice caps.

Farming, if year to year produced 110% of food needs, could freeze the 10% excess each year, and that would satisfy food security.

Energy could be satisfied by nuclear fission, and I personally think thermal storage and release with Heliostats/radiators.

So, other than human needs we do not want liquid water on Mars, as it would be counterproductive to further inflating the atmosphere.

I think that it would be desirable to vaporize the CO2 in the South polar ice caps, for various reasons, and if that lead to snowfalls and temporary melt water streams, then we may want that water to evaporate and migrate either to high altitude clouds to warm the planet, or to the poles.

So, then a sort of warmed stability might be achieved where the low latitudes mostly dry out of ice over time, and where the high latitudes mostly stay below the melting point of water.

In my mind, it is beginning to look like the Valles Marinaris should be strongly considered for the settlement. If investigation shows the water there is suitable to needs. My thinking is it may be "Artesian Cryovolcanoes" if that were so, rather than springs that fed a ice covered body of water, there would be periodic eruptions of water through cracks.

It could be something else, or may not be suitable water supply, but I think it should really be looked at.

It may turn out that there are clathrates of CO2 or even Nitrogen or Methane under the permafrost in various areas of the planet. If that proves true then some method would be desired to invent to get those items back into the atmosphere, or to human use.

I think now that the Rift Valley could be a target for orbital mirrors, and so then an energy center. Perhaps even the only frost-free ecology on the planet, due to the mirrors.

So, yes this reduces the work load those settlers would be exposed to, in order to more sensibly occupy Mars in a profitable way.

Thanks for the input.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-15 15:52:41)

Void · 2022-02-17 11:57:10

(th), I expect that I will start working on the thing you requested soon.

The last posts, have sort of established some possible boundaries on the future of Mars development.

I think the biggest fact is that we do not know nearly enough about Mars, the solar system, and the human system yet to make projections of certainty about the future.

With that being true in my opinion, I do consider the plans of Elon Musk/SpaceX to be in good measure for several reasons. However, I think that there will need to be a plan (B)ezos for Mars involving orbital skills. This will possibly be necessary for health concerns but will also be prudent per the production of wealth, in my opinion.

The cautions that our member "Calliban" promote, are indeed concerns to structure future actions around. However, where I sort of "Froze" things up in the previous post, #65, I think that that is a good foundational boundry, but that with invention of methods, this could be worked around, if it becomes desired to host a larger population, in reasonable economic conditions.

I can give example, of a method for Korolav Crater. The ice deposit being very thick:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Quote:

Korolev crater is located on the Planum Boreum, the northern polar plain which surrounds the north polar ice cap, near the Olympia Undae dune field. The crater rim rises about 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) above the surrounding plains. The crater floor lies about 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) below the rim, and is covered by a 1.8 kilometres (1.1 mi) deep central mound of permanent water ice, up to 60 kilometres (37 mi) in diameter.[2]

In this case, if it is desired to leave the ice in place for the most part, then for any ponds or lakes that are desired to manufacture, a liner could be employed, with a minimum thickness and with some thermal insulating characteristics.

If the bottom water of such ponds or lakes were maintained at a fraction above the freezing point of water, then any layers above it could be quite a bit warmer. Of course, you could use ice armor if you had an ice-covered body of water, but I should think that it would be more pleasant to go ahead and have a pressure contain structure(s) above it. Sometimes suitable for agriculture, and sometimes suitable for humans.

And so, then this is not "running water", but relatively static water, and not so much in contact with regolith that would interact with it.

And so this being the high latitude northern area, then I advise, that windows be on the north of pressure retaining structure and that Heliostats be used to push light into those windows.

And I still like the idea of putting anti-solar cells on the back side of these heliostats, and flowing a hot fluid through them, one that can endure freezing cold also. And I came upon this article today which could possibly be down the street towards that kind of technology.
https://phys.org/news/2022-02-radiative … -iced.html
Quote:

Radiative cooling: Protecting ice from melting under sunlight, from iced food to glaciers

So, I think that having sufficient wealth to attract settlers will in part depend on Energy, Resources, and Robots, and the cleverness of humans, we hope.

As for the deeps of the ice deposits of Korolev, and the submerged crater rim, I can see the notion to hollow these out in places to provide for robots and automation. That then coupled to energy and raw materials may create the resources needed.

------

It is likely that gravitation will be an issue for humans and their children in the places of Mars, so solutions will need to evolve. Energy available in orbits, and the two moons of Mars suggest that plan (B)ezos could occur there.

I have many notions for synthetic gravity machines, but I will trial balloon just one here for now. I have other things to do.

I will see if I can come up with a simple drawing.

OK, a very primitive depiction of a double cylinder structure, the outer cylinder being protective from the harsh elements, and the inner cylinder being light in structure but capable of holding pressure. 'A' & 'B' depict the ability to connect to other such structures or to structures with windows to allow sunlight in.

I have kind of suggested similar before, but in this case, I am wondering if this could run on a 24 hour cycle. 12 hours where the speed is sufficient for needed maximum gravity simulation which could be as much as 1 g. 12 hours of reduced speed simulation which could be little as the gravity of Ceres.

The 1 g gravity would likely be the "Day" where artificial lighting might be on to promote plant growth, and the Ceres gravity would include 8 hours nominal for sleeping. Before sleeping or after sleeping there might be about ~2 hours where you could leave this habitat for another. In this suggestion, I am suggesting that most of the air between the two cylinders, that VOID, would be pumped down to allow for a 1 g simulation, and that in the case for "Night" or Ceres gravity, the pressure would be equalized, allowing easier personal transfers and inspection/repairs to the two cylinders. I do have other notions such as a "Spin Airlock" which might be included to allow people to transfer any time, but this is enough for now. Imagine, you might then fly in the sky, prior to going to bed or in the morning, and yet when awake be exercised with 1 g, if that is the magnitude of gravity needed.

And I can think of many additional safety features. Also I expect that a network of these would be associated with the moons of Mars, where much of the materials for them would be provide from, and also a source of atmospheric building for Mars itself.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-17 21:20:36)

Void · 2022-02-17 17:50:50

I have some modifications needed for the previous post, particularly about ponds and lakes for Korolev Crater.

But this thing I will post first, I think is very important for Mars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKhszB4E1_M
Quote:

Get 4X The Power From Your Solar Panels! - TI Sunday

If the above is true, then for Mars, it should be possible to get 8X the power, as Mars solar flux is ~~~1/2 that of Earth. His materials are all of interest, but I am most interested in his mirrors.

I am thinking Cardboard for Mars, or some variation of it suitable for the climate of Mars.

Put a reflective coating on it. Now you may have a lightweight mirror for use on Mars, that will not have to deal with hail, rain, or very damaging winds. The gravitation is already ~.38 g??? and cardboard is light. Cardboard can also serve as a packing material for the trip from Earth to Mars.

So, I am starting down the path of thinking of making as much of heliostats for Mars out of a pseudo cardboard as may be possible.
Of course, there would have to be motors and other hardware, but if we can learn to make the equivalent of cardboard on Mars, that could be a very good value. Until then, it may be a product worth shipping to Mars.

-------

Now for the modification of the previous post about pools and lakes, I have this:

Pool 'B' can be of ice water, which should be stable in contact with the ice slab in Korolev Crater.

Then pool 'A' can hold higher temperatures. Likely 39 degrees F at it's bottom and as high as you want to go in the upper layers, provided your dome or other structure can hold the vapor pressure in.

That is 3.88888889 Celsius. I remember the 39 F because I read about ponds many years ago, and that is the temperature that the bottom layer will fall to in the winter, as it is the heaviest fresh water.

So, my memory is not in Celsius.

But I think I do some good things for being a hick.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-17 18:14:58)

Void · 2022-02-17 21:21:02

Back to this:

As I have said previously, I believe that significant safety management can be added to this notion.
At this time, I prefer the double cylinder with artificial lighting. Of course, if someone wants to figure out windows, they certainly can work on that.

But I am thinking that say if you wanted a zero g greenhouse you could put it behind one of these things which would provide shielding from solar flares. Then you would need mirrors to reach out beyond the shadow of the double cylinder structure to then reflect the sunlight into the zero g greenhouse. You would most likely pass-through safety doors, to get into the greenhouse. It might also double for star gazing.

A very wonderful person: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K. … lonization

He would not have known if agriculture could be done in zero g. It appears that at least some of it can.
If that is the case, except for decorative vegetation, I don't think it would be usually good to apply spin gravity to farms in orbit. If enough wealth were available, there could be exceptions. Perhaps vacation cylinders, if you want a truer Earth simulation.

But of course, as I see, it, it may be best to do things as I have suggested above.

Artificial lights will be much better than most people might think, if they include a spectrum closer to sunlight. With red light, infrared light, and yes even a bit of U.V.

And as I have said, I anticipate whole networks of these things, so that you could visit another one just by going through a passage.

Nite.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-18 09:46:01)

Void · 2022-02-18 09:41:42

Another member recently pointed out that Gerard Kitchen O’Neill, and those others like him did indeed already consider reduced environments for agriculture. So, I am a bit of a fool to suggest otherwise.

But as you already know I am liking a double shell scheme, where rotational devices are internal to another shell, and can, if protected by non-rotating shells from radiation and impactors, and perhaps other factors, be reduced in structural mass.

While Zero g for agriculture could have its attractions, for humans at least and probably their pets, and other animals, zero g will not be the maximum efficiency or safety.

For the moment, I will suggest an instance of a structure for agriculture, that could resemble a washing machine. With a spinning rotor drum inside of a "Stator" outer structure. I am looking for ideal working gravity. For some types of agriculture that could be one thing, and for others another. Similarly for one instance of manufacturing, it could be one thing, and for another product the ideal gravity would be another.

I have already suggested that this example of a very basic concept, could have 2 different gravitational simulations over a 24-hour period. So, such a device also would allow experimentations on various versions of agriculture and industrial processes, as some of these double shells could be set to various degrees of simulated gravitation.

Especially in the case of industrial experimentation it could be valuable to be able to change simulations day to day to find the good ones.

Reduced gravity could also be important for managing human waste. Zero gravitation would present continuing problems of that sort.

Best agricultural gravity would address that problem and human mobility problems for the human body and their tools/machines.

Being able to walk could be an asset but falling down to an injury would be a bad thing.

So, the ability to experiment with the above device based on the above drawing, would allow experiments in ergonomics.

------

Previously other members and not I have suggested Bamboo as a crop.

https://www.bamboogrove.com/bamboo-agriculture.html

So, I have some concerns about the output products being tolerant of many spaces environmental situations, but perhaps some treatments would improve that.

I think it would do better in many of the situations on Mars itself.

Due to day/night, seasons, and dust storms on Mars proper. Solar energy is much more reliable in orbit than on the surface, I would expect.

So, possibly a trade between the orbits of Mars, and the surface. I don't know what the economics would prove to be, but it would be an option to look into, I think.

I said washing machine.... maybe I should have said "Dryer", as well.

Anyway:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ce … BasicHover

I could do a drawing, but I am not interested in channeling the reader to a specific instance, rather, if I could, I would have wanted to see what others might come up with, after being stimulated.

But if kids are reading this do not mess with your parents' appliances about this. It will annoy them and could be dangerous, very easily dangerous.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-02-18 13:08:00)

Void · 2022-02-18 12:53:06

On the issue of 8X improvement of Solar energy on Mars, per the (th) post in "Voids posts", if you can improve output 4X on Earth, I said 8X on Mars, (A speculation). The solar flux on Mars is about:
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … with-earth
Quote:

Mars gets less than half the light that we get on Earth and there are dust storms, but the atmosphere is much thinner and there are no clouds. After all factors have been considered, how effective are solar cells on Mars (compared with those on Earth)?

Earth has clouds of significance, Mars has dust storms, so that makes the comparison false in that way. However, if you can boost the amount of flux a solar cell gets on Earth by 4 times without damaging the solar cell, and since "Mars gets less than half the light we get on Earth, then you could afford to boost the solar flux on Mars about 8X without damaging the solar cell.

Cost considerations are, can you make and control mirrors on Mars at a price better than just making more solar panels?
Are mirrors less costly to ship to Mars than solar panels?
What is the relative endurance, (Maintenance costs), of mirrors relative to solar panels in the environment of Mars?

--------

I was looking at the asteroid "Elektra" today. Seems that it may be composed of materials like Ceres. Presence of Nitrogen compounds might be possible, therefore. The Finns had suggested Ceres as a place to settle as they expect to have Nitrogen available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/130_Elekt … 20Contents

I have witnessed that Dr. Robert Zubrin has mentioned the Asteroid Belt as a "Next" thing to do after Mars, He is not the only one to suggest that.

Here again the plans of the Finns: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Picture Quote:
https://www.sciencealert.com/images/202 … lite-1.jpg

Of course, I have mentioned that before. As you know from my previous posts, I like a double shell (At least 2 shells), for many orbital habitats, that can be connected better to each other in a network.

This again: https://i.imgur.com/mNgrvYU.png

Now this is a very optimistic opinion about the Martian moons: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/
Quote:

Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

Alright that is very optimistic per water ice, (I presume), but I will take the optimism. Carbon I am more likely to be sure of.
Nitrogen would certainly be available from Mars for orbital habitats, and probably a very effective way to use it.
Water and Carbon could also be obtained from Mars itself if it is not obtained from the moons of Mars.

But here is where I am going with this. Orbital assets will certainly have value in attempting to terraform and also to inhabit Mars.

But there can be a huge payback in the fact that if you do this in orbit of Mars, you will then have reasonable methods of technology developed that are likely to work for the worlds of the Asteroid Belt(s).

So, likely a huge long-term payout. It is likely that some version of it would also be suitable for things further out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-18 13:25:39)

Calliban · 2022-02-18 13:39:10

I wasn't aware that Phobos was a water rich body. Do they know this, or is it speculation? If this is true, Phobos is an important destination in its own right. We could mine the water and produce bipropellant for Robert's large ship.

Void · 2022-02-18 18:39:20

Thanks for your post, Calliban.

I was only reporting that article, don't know how correct they are. I do know that both moons are very porous.

And you made me think. What is the atmosphere like in those voids?

If the porous spaces have molecules or gas in them as thick or thicker than the Lunar atmosphere, then that can qualify as an atmosphere, in my little world.

I am short on time so will need further posts to better suggest my suspicions, but I will suggest that these moons just might have water vapor in those voids, or other things, maybe heavy hydrocarbons? As for ice, indeed even at the cold temps of the interiors of the moons, it should vaporize, if exposed to a vacuum, like interplanetary space I presume. But what level of atmosphere is required to preserve the ice at those temperatures?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Phobos is one of the least reflective bodies in the Solar System, with an albedo of just 0.071. Surface temperatures range from about −4 °C (25 °F) on the sunlit side to −112 °C (−170 °F) on the shadowed side.

But this does not discuss the polar areas contribution to cold inside.

I found this: https://www.omnicalculator.com/chemistr … e-of-water
A quick use gave: (@-150 Deg C)
-0.000000011255 Bar
-0.000000008761 Bar
Two different formula's and I don't understand, but convert to Millibar, I guess -0.000011255 Millibar for one of them, and that might be possible internal to the moons????

What I am looking at is that the Sun throws the solar wind at these moons. That includes Hydrogen, Helium, Protons!!!, and some other elements. The Protons may create water, if coupled with tiny impactors, in a manner like the Lunar environment.

But then we can remember that Mars leaks atmosphere, so I expect that chemicals from the atmosphere of Mars also get pushed inside of the voids of these moons. This suggests that strange chemistry may be possible over long periods of time.

Energy sources can be impactors. Solar Flares, radiation. In the case of Phobos secondary radiation from Mars on the facing side of Phobos. GCR. Electrical effects. Can there be lightning or similar discharges inside of these moons?

So, it is likely that CO2 goes into the voids. Near the surface radiation or electrical discharges, might create CO and Oxygen from that. Oxygen might depart, but CO might enter Iron or Nickle per the Mond process and hang around. Protons can get inside of that, and so you might see Hydrocarbons created, similar to water creation supposed for the Lunar world.

If you have heavy Hydrocarbons they might tend to condense inside of the moons.

Pure speculation, but suggestive for what we might consider looking for inside of those moons.

Gotta go. Nite.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-18 21:10:00)

Void · 2022-02-18 21:11:43

Further information Calliban on the moons of Mars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars#Origin

Some Origin theories have them as being Carbonaceous Asteroids or resembling such.

So, minerals, and Oxygen most likely for sure. Carbon very possible. Hydrogen???
But Hydrogen would not be that hard to lift up in a Starship tanker, or with a Skyhook method.

Here is just a notion of a stalk of cells of double cylinder worlds, that could emerge from Phobos or Deimos like a tree.

Again, just something for dreamers to make better than what I showed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-02-18 21:27:15)

Void · 2022-02-19 10:32:47

I am very interested in what may go on inside of Phobos and Deimos, and also asteroids, particularly porous rubble pile asteroids.

I feel that it is guaranteed that some fluid molecules should be in those void spaces. If I say fluid, that might be liquid, gas, or maybe plasma? Unlikely to be a liquid, but let's not utterly rule it out. It would just be more proper to not expect liquids. Although, for instance if 16 Psyche is a rubble pile and the porosity goes very far down, perhaps a substantial internal atmosphere just might exist after very long periods of impactors outgassing's and the solar winds input. Any produced liquids at the deeps of such an atmosphere would be very unusual, I would expect.

In the solar wind we have the unusual product Protons and Electrons, which will impact the materials of the moons and in the case of Protons, can apparently entrain themselves inside of Oxidized regolith. I would suppose that they can embed into Carbonaceous regolith as well with unknown results, possible production of Hydrocarbons.

We might also suspect that Hydrogen and Helium and even other elements are pushed into the porous/voids of these rubble objects. I have mentioned impactors as a possible source of things fluid and of a gas nature, elements with those properties at those temperatures. We might expect that in some cases they would get caught in the flow of the solar wind into the pore space/voids.

And I have a suspicion that for Phobos and Deimos, they sometimes pass through the Magne tail of Mars. That might being Mars atmosphere to the two moons.

Mars Magne tail: https://bgr.com/science/mars-tail-nasa- … discovery/

OK, if anyone has considered the matter, I cannot find their materials.

https://www.asdnews.com/news/aerospace/ … ake-flybys

So, I can only speculate that there is indeed a molecule cloud/internal atmosphere inside of Phobos and Deimos.

So, what are these molecules likely to be up to?

Absorption?
Adsorption?
Desorption?
https://psiberg.com/adsorption-vs-absor … rption.%20

Ha Ha!
Quote:

Hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen gases are adsorbed by activated charcoal. Here the gases H2, O2, and N2 are adsorbates and the surface where the adsorption occurs (charcoal surface) is the adsorbent.
Unlike absorption, adsorption is a surface phenomenon, and it often precedes absorption.
There are two types of adsorptions:
Physical adsorption, also known as physisorption, is due to weak Van der Waals forces between adsorbate and adsorbent. For example, adsorption of gases like hydrogen or nitrogen on the surface of charcoal, etc.
Chemical adsorption, also known as chemisorption, is due to strong chemical forces (bonding) between adsorbate and adsorbent. For example, adsorption of hydrogen or nitrogen on the surface of adsorbent like ferrous catalyst at high temperatures, etc.
Generally, a common term known as sorption is used for both adsorption and absorption. Desorption, opposite of sorption, is a process by which a substance is released from or through the surface.

So, maybe, since some of the rocks are thought to contain Carbon. Also, if CO2 is split to Oxygen and CO, and the CO goes into the moons underground pore space/void space, and if Iron or Nickle are present a Mond process may occur, although I am not sure of that at such low pressures. I just don't know what the affinity of CO to the materials of the moons might be at those pressures.

But I will speculate that both moons will show some characteristics of being "Vacuum Sponges".

Energy. We can expect GCR, Solar Flare radiation, secondary radiation from Mars to Phobos near side, and electrical effects.
Electrical effects could include ion flows (+), and electron flows (-). Maybe even electrical discharges like high altitude sprites, or such.

These might primarily be stimulated by the Solar Wind, and the Sun's Photon Flux variations on the surface of the Moons, I "Speculate".

So, then with energy and molecules, what products may have been synthesized inside these moons, over very long-time spans? Don't know.

Probably a good idea to investigate for "Ground" "Underground" truth.

What utility to humans and their machines? I don't know yet, for some, but Oxygen and Metals/Silicates sounds good as a start. Carbon? Likely.

Quieted Hydrogen/Helium? I think it likely.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-02-19 20:35:28)

Void · 2022-02-19 20:35:57

I have this as a continuation of current directions in this topic:

The interior shell that has a left and right partner, can be intended to have multiple passageways between the two, so that when all is well, people can expect to travel between the two, making them as one, except for emergencies, where if safety is compromised on one side, it would be hoped that the other side would provide emergency refuge, with doors to close to provide that safety under such a situation.

The heavy outer shell would have radiation protection, and concerns would be needed to be applied to reduce the chances that an impactor would contribute to a Kessler Syndrome contribution. In other words, methods that inhibit material shedding even in impact events would be desired.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-19 20:39:42)

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