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#76 2021-11-30 20:17:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Here is another video about using Phobos to help make a magnetosphere for Mars.  This one explains more.

You of course can appropriate this Spacenut.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … &FORM=VIRE

My own feeling is that Phobos should also have Skyhooks, and that magnetic fields in various locations, Mars, Phobos, and Deimos, should be able to push and pull on each other.

A way to sort of anchor on Phobos or Deimos would be to use a magnetic field in your space device/spacecraft, to attract to the moon.  The moons should have plenty of magnetic materials, Iron, Nickle.

Then Harpoons to hard anchor, or in finding a large rock, then rock anchors on those.

Perhaps then "Shelling" the whole moon with a sphere of solar panels, as power will be needed.

Of course I am an advocate of synthetic gravity machines in orbit, to provide the most optimal simulated gravitation field for human health.

No one knows if adult, fetus, child humans can be healthy on the surface of Mars, without synthetic gravity anyway, and for how long.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-30 20:23:41)


Done.

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#77 2021-12-03 06:59:15

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,895

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban wrote:

I am a strong proponent of micro nuclear pulse propulsion.  Future use of nuclear weapons will inevitably increase back ground radiation levels on Earth.  We might as well accept that fact and deploy atmospheric nuclear detonations for a more productive purpose.  We need propulsion systems that will allow large ships to take off and land on Earth reusable and fly between Earth and other planets with direct throw capability on a single tank of fuel.  That means T/W ratio better than 1 and ISP better than 1000.  There is no way of achieving that without nuclear pulse, because thrust x ISP = power.  The power requirements become difficult if you introduce heat transfer across solid boundaries, so nuclear pulse it must be.  I believe that it is possible to use very small amounts of fissile material to ignite compressed deuterium pellets.  In this way, fission provides only the trigger for a fusion dominated pulse.  This allows for high thrust and high ISP with minimal radioactivity.

There is no space drive technology that is even close to practicality that can achieve high ISP and high thrust simultaneously, without deploying a nuclear reaction as an energy source.  Even pure fusion would release some radioactivity as neutrons interact with the air.  So at some point conversions need to be had around acceptable levels of pollution of Earth's atmosphere in exchange for access to the new frontier and its resources.  At some point, conventional rocketry will start to become a significant aggrevating factor in atmospheric warming, as it pumps water vapour into the upper atmosphere.  Eventually, nuclear pulse propulsion will be used because it is in the final consideration, more environmentally friendly.

Incidentally, this puts in my mind a new terraforming method for Mars.  Large ships powered by fission-fusion microexplosions could use water as propellant and would pump the Martian ionosphere with hydrogen and hydroxyl ions.  A fraction of these would recombine to form water molecules which would create a powerful greenhouse effect.  It is something that will end up happening whether we want it to or not.  On Earth, we could use sulphur as a propellant in the upper atmosphere.  The resulting sulphate aerosols will have an atmospheric cooling effect.  On the moon, probably any solid material will be adequate as a propellant.  At temperatures of 10,000K, almost all materials break down into dissociated ions.  But you need a material that you can pump and ideally can be used for regenerative cooling of the expansion chamber.  Maybe liquid magnesium, aluminium or sodium?  Liquid oxygen is a possibility.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#78 2021-12-03 07:25:04

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void wrote:

Although this is not directly Mars terraforming, I think it is very likely that
Mars terraforming will require boots on the ground and in orbit.  So, I am putting
this here.  I will be comfortable with criticism, but not so much rigid thinking.
I have borrowed from Robert Zubrin quite a bit, and also from members on this site.

This is worth a read, in my opinion.
https://phys.org/news/2021-10-martian-r … -mars.html

I think that it is good to consider alternatives.  I cannot judge the value of this
one, but it is good for them to try something.

The paper you link is talking about using cyano bacteria to produce biomass that are then converted into liquid fuels.  It could be made to to work.  But I think the algae will need supplementary heat to grow on Mars.  This sort of plan doesn't work without a nuclear reactor to provide supplentary heat.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#79 2021-12-03 13:36:11

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I like to fancy that I may have a bit of hunter-gatherer in my blood, so, when I pass by something of interest, I may put it in my pouch.

Seriously though, I do think that Fission Nuclear, it a fine tool for Mars, even better than Earth.  I feel that if I were to implement it for Mars, I would do it in once again, "(Ice Covered Pools".  I feel that in many cases at higher latitudes, if you had a spill of some kind, you could simply let that pool freeze over deep, and so, that would likely give isolation.

Certainly the energy would be useful.

Done.


Done.

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#80 2021-12-03 19:12:05

SpaceNut
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

One can also use solar concentrating heat with an exchangers submerged in the pond to provide that heat source for the mars application.

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#81 2021-12-06 10:46:13

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I stumbled on this, and I think it could be related to Lichen which might in time grow on Mars, and also the possibility that humans may also engineer plants for Mars, that can better tolerate frost, and also draw water from the atmospheres daily thermal cycling.

https://phys.org/news/2021-12-limit.html
Quote:

Researcher pushes limit of when water will freeze

Lichen Metabolism in cold temperatures:  (Lichen can of course recover from very cold temperatures, but even can be active at ~(>-20 degC).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7796000075
Quote:

Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.

So, in Mars conditions, without salts, liquid water cannot exist in any significant amount on the surface.  But in the tissues of Lichen, I presume it can be made to be liquid at temperatures quite below the normal freezing point of fresh water.  Lichens have been shown to even prosper in cracks in rocks in Mars simulations on Earth done, I believe, by Germans.

So, it would seem that the Lichens in the cracks must be able to pull water from the air in the night cold, or morning light. 

My notion is that as morning light makes exposed surfaces shed moisture that may be bonded to them, and to the Martian "Air" above those surfaces, the thermal inertia of the cracks retaining cold a bit longer may attract that moisture into those cracks to produce an amplified relative humidity, for a short period of time.  Then the Lichen tissues can absorb/adsorb the water molecules and cause them to be liquid at temperatures well below the freezing point of fresh water.  I have to presume that a forced liquid water is the method as I think that a vapor or solid would not be supportive of the metabolism of the Lichens.

This then produces an interesting question:  The better survival of Lichen in cracks in rock or soil has been attributed to the notion that the U.V. flux is reduced to 1/40th or less in the cracks relative to normal surface.  That notion has merit in my mind, as Lichen metabolism is slow, and may only need 1/40th or less red and blue light, but would not enjoy 40 or more times the amount of U.V.

And that may be very true.  However, I wonder about the relative collection of water from the air.  Are the cracks also more friendly as per concentrating RH% than the typical rock or soil surfaces?

So, it may be some of both, or maybe not.  Don't know yet.

The point is the first level of terraforming we can hope to attain would be to double the atmospheric pressure.  We might suppose that this will be helpful, as the air might contain more moisture, and perhaps even the spectrum might be better.  This would be achieved by vaporizing all of the CO2 available in the Polar ice caps.

Another layer of improvement, from life/human standpoint would be to impose an artificial magnetic field.  This would be expected to help retain Oxygen produced by Photolysis, and that just might result in a Ozone layer of some degree.

Without the addition of buffer gasses such as Nitrogen and Argon, the best atmosphere that might eventually be produced would be dominated by Oxygen, at perhaps 333 mBar.

This would still have large thermal cycles day and night, which would actually be helpful to some life such as Lichens.  We don't know what level of Ozone layer can be expected to be producible.

So, if Terraforming is anticipated, I would expect that it would be wise to do many experiments, on the various states that the Martian environment might be changed to.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 11:07:39)


Done.

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#82 2021-12-06 11:55:10

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Terraformer wrote:

A 20mbar Martian CO2 atmosphere isn't something we can breath and it doesn't negate the need for surface habitats to be pressure vessels.

It does if they're just for producing biomass. And most of the land we need will be for producing biomass. If we can make vast areas suitable for growing hardy trees and grasses, then colonisation becomes far far easier. Especially if there is a few mb of oxygen in the air that can be pulled out whenever we need it, removing the need to carry bulky tanks with us when travelling or for buffering habitats.

This paper reports on studies carried out on rye grass grown at lower atmospheric pressure.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/198 … 010460.pdf

Interestingly, rye will grow at pressure as low as 70mbar.  However, most of the partial pressure must be oxygen.  Plants must breath just as humans must.

Whilst humans cannot breath a 70mbar atmosphere, it should be much easier making a counter pressure suit to provide 100mbar of additional counterpressure.  63mbar rated poly-tunnels would be easier to construct that 200mbar tunnels.  Such tunnels can be thin polymer, maybe even poly-ethylene reinforced using steel ribs.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-06 12:11:22)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#83 2021-12-06 12:31:45

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, an interesting thing I have discovered/read today is that Lichen evolved much later than land plants.  And they do not seem to have that same level of Oxygen need.  Perhaps they store Oxygen from the day.  But they can go dormant for long periods of time and revive, so they might endure the cold of a long dust storm or winter.

Lichen does not appear to be able to compete with vascular plants, so generally takes environments that vascular plants do not do so well with.  The metabolism of them is slow, but that can be in a large part because of the marginal environments that they inhabit.

Some people might be horrified if I suggested that we might cause the evolution of Lichen into things resembling plants.  However, I would not very much worry, as I expect that they could not compete very well with Vascular plants on Earth.  Mars could be a different matter.

I anticipate that a partially terraformed Mars, 12-333 mBar, might have many environments that Lichen derived life may out compete vascular plants in. 

We might find alpine plants that could sort of cope, and they might be modified by various means.

However, they likely would not be well suited to many terraformed Martian environments with more potential than the places where Lichen exist on Earth.

Lichens, having solved rather well the problems of extreme cold, frost crystals, dryness, and cycling temperatures, may provide a base for something that could perhaps artificially be evolved for Mars.

One problem to solve is nutrients.  Lichen don't seem to have roots.  But they are part Fungi.  Could we get them to work with other fungi in the soil to deliver nutrients to them?  Again, I don't think that this would yield things that would be very competitive to vascular life on Earth.

So, you see the direction I am going.  Vascular plants took some of the easy paths, and Lichen took what was left.  That caused Lichen to develop extreme methods to exist/persist.  Those methods may be valuable on Mars.  But Lichen as it would be of limited agricultural value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 12:41:36)


Done.

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#84 2021-12-06 15:59:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have thought about it more.

I don't think that guiding the evolution of Lichen is that silly.

We have other presumed examples of the merging of organisms by symbiosis, that
have then become the great families of life on this planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

How did plants get Chlorophyll?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophy … iphosphate

This new family which apparently is young may be rather plastic at this time, as it will host Algae or Cyanobacteria.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

It may be easier to cause Lichen to develop parallel to vascular plants where useful than to try to give vascular plants to develop the endurance of Lichen.

A Lichen that is almost a crop:
Reindeer Moss:  https://nordgrona.com/reindeer-moss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladonia_rangiferina
Quote: (Uses)

Uses
This lichen can be used in the making of aquavit,[citation needed] and is sometimes used as decoration in glass windows. The lichen is used as a traditional remedy for removal of kidney stones by the Monpa in the alpine regions of the West Kameng district of Eastern Himalaya.[14] The Inland Dena'ina used reindeer lichen for food by crushing the dry lichen and then boiling it or soaking it in hot water until it becomes soft. They eat it plain or, preferably, mixed with berries, fish eggs, or lard. The Inland Dena'ina also boil reindeer lichen and drink the juice as a medicine for diarrhea. Due to acids present in lichens, their consumption may cause an upset stomach, especially if not well cooked.[15]

A study released in May 2011 claims that some species of lichens, including Cladonia rangiferina, are able to degrade the deadly prion implicated in transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs) through the enzyme serine protease.[16]

According to a study released in 2017, Northern Sweden that reindeer lichen were able to grow on burnt soil as soon as two years after a forest fire. This study provides a great opportunity to use reindeer lichen as a fire management option. [17]

Of course Reindeer Moss, the Lichen is not the same as the Antarctic Lichens that seemed to have some endurance for Mars.  But, perhaps by increasing the Nutrition and Productivity, (If possible), and trying to incorporate some of the properties of endurance, it may become a useful crop for Mars some day. 

Probably a lot of work, but maybe possible, and maybe worth it.

I have been thinking that perhaps by making the created crops very dependent on being given nutrients by humans, a symbiosis would be created, and there would be less chances of it getting out of control.

However, this is the truth about the existing Reindeer Moss.  It would have the quality of tolerance of cold, and do good with less sunlight, which is how Mars is, but of course it could not grow on Mars as it is now.  Lots of work would be needed to create a new breed with tolerance for hard conditions as well.

But, I note that it gets its nutrition from the air for the most part, but does not tolerate pollution very well.  That then indicates that it might be possible for it to be made dependent on extra nutrients supplied by humans, but it would seem likely that it would hate the dust of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 16:13:51)


Done.

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#85 2021-12-07 05:13:26

Calliban
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Registered: 2019-08-18
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with lichen.  But as things stand, it is the totality of conditions on Mars that will defeat them.  Temperatures that rarely rise above freezing and dip to -90°C at night.  Low atmospheric pressure and an O2 partial pressure in microbars.  Unfiltered UV radiation.  A cold, dry atmosphere.  Highly basic soil, contaminated with perchlorate.  There may be things that could survive any one of these conditions in isolation.  But in totality, it looks daunting.  A thin sheet of polymer staked to the ground, might give these things a chance.  Oxygen could accumulate underneath; temperatures would be warmer and the polymer can be coated to shield out UV.  But it raises the question of what we are trying to achieve?  Are we going to eat lichen?  Or is the idea to provide a foot hold for something that can slowly increase atmospheric O2 levels by fixing carbon?

Your original suggestion of ice covered ponds probably represents the best near term bet of carving out habitable environments on Mars.  Places like Korelov crater.  In that location, we could simply add nuclear heat under the ice and create an ice covered pond that would be habitable for many species.  The ice sheet would prevent oxygen from escaping from the water and limit that rate that CO2 dissolves into it.

There has been surprisingly little research into the ability of land plants to tolerate low pressure environments.  We know that rye grass grows well in a 70mbar almost pure O2 environment.  What about 10-12mbar?  Could anything grow in that?  If so, then simple non-pressurised greenhouses built in Hellas basin might be used to grow some plants.  The glass or plastic roof could be coated to remove UV.  The atmosphere inside would be 12mbar almost pure O2 with some water vapour.  If it doesn't have to be pressurised it makes construction way easier.  The polymer membrane will limit water loss through evapouration and water vapour would condense as icicles, that then drop back into the ponds.  Those greenhouses could be soil berms, with a sheet of ETFE over the top.  Without differential pressure, building such things is easier.

Aquatic plants like micro algae might do OK in an environment like this.  Water containing algae could be contained in plastic lined ponds which are pumped through these greenhouses.  We have discussed algae before.  The ponds would develop an ice covering at night and would probably freeze to the bottom in winter.  But if only a tiny fraction of algae survive, they can repopulate the water in spring.  Algae is something that we can find some immediate uses for on Mars.  Food for animals.  A healthy food additive for people.  Feedstock for methane and carbon chemistry.  Organic fertiliser for soils.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-07 05:27:10)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#86 2021-12-07 08:40:55

Terraformer
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

It's a great shame they only used rye grass in the 70mb experiment, since barley is an actual grain crop and more useful to know about. But even it it is only tough inedible (to humans) grasses we can grow under very low pressure... if we can grow 10 tonnes of grass for the same cost as a tonne of grain, then dairy animals may make sense to bring along, to convert that grass to edible calories.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#87 2021-12-07 13:08:40

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, guys, I see a lot of evidence that you did not actually read my materials.

I have specified Mars as it is, Mars with an atmosphere average of 12 mBar, and all the way up to 333 mBar, unless someone can find Nitrogen and Argon to allow the pressure to be pushed higher than that.

With some Lichen at least Oxygen is not going to be a problem, as far as I can see.

OK, the Germans did Mars simulations.  I do not feel that they were accurate enough.  I don't know if they included the amounts of CO, and O2 that are in the Mars atmosphere.  I am quite sure that they did not simulate the toxic dust.  But they did establish that the Lichen could adapt to their simulation if in a protected place like a crack in a rock or soil.  It would draw water from night time humidity, and could do Photosynthesis at -17 degC and above.  Can become active to a degree at -20 degC.

I am not sure if they input the correct amount of U.V. flux.

Anyway, they showed that a limited simulation would allow Lichen and Cyanobacteria to survive and even thrive in their simulations.

Calliban, it is odd that you approach this once again as a binary argument.  I do not intend to abandon waking up the Hydrosphere.  For the most part on Mars, that will have to be ice covered waters.  And in many circumstances that ice will need armor to not evaporate away too fast.

I have approached this with the idea that since Lichen is relatively a recent arrival on Earth, it has not evolved into all the versions that it might evolve into.  It may never outcompete Vascular plants in many places.

Lichen: (I have read that it has been determined that Lichen began existence about 250 Millions years ago, so did not precede plants).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichen

I am of the opinion that microbial mats are the origin of the emergence of multicellular life.  Most multicellular life has changed so much that it seems that the original microbes cannot be identified.  However we have Mitocondria, and the adoption of Chlorophyll in plants from microbes.

Lichen is not nearly that far along yet.

I have mentioned that Reindeer Moss, a Lichen actually does have some low level agricultural productivity.  I have mentioned that extreme forms of Lichen have methods to survive extreme environments, much better than Vascular plants.

------

I have the notion that human abilities to manipulate Lichen for Mars, will either increase, and increase, or will disappear, if our cultures fall.

If our cultures do not fall, but the abilities continue to increase, it may be that a modified line of Lichen for Mars could be created that may be both productive and have greater endurances than would Vascular plants.

------

There is a general behavior that only lists how Mars is not as good as Earth.

I can identify at least 3 situations where Mars is better than Earth, but those things will not be as apparent unless the planet is at least partially terraformed.

1) For Mars, due to the day night temperature cycles, some life forms such as Lichen can get a drink of water directly out of humid night or early morning atmosphere.

This likely happens in places like Antarctica as it is now.  For actual liquid water not from Rain or Snow, you could look to Namibia.  And environments like Namibia, (Sort Of) may end up existing on Mars, if it is partially terraformed.  We likely cannot fully terraform Mars.

2) CO and O2 in the atmosphere, Methane and probably Hydrogen as well.

This is known to happen in Antarctica:
https://theconversation.com/antarctic-b … uel-171808
https://microbiologycommunity.nature.co … c-microbes

This is why I am not as concerned about Methane as a greenhouse gas, as for CO2.  Methane is both a source of Energy, (With the provision of an Oxidizer), and Carbon and it turns out also Water.

It turns out that trees conduct Methane from soil, and out of their bark, and microbes there consume most of it.

If we create Lichen, and Fungi, and Vascular plants we should want them all to be able to use disequilibrium in the atmosphere for energy and for Carbon and Water, along with Photosynthesis, where appropriate.

It is quite possible that microbes may be able to live in a sheltered crack or other space in regolith, and pull water out of the air at low temperatures, and also get gasses to consume for their metabolisms.  In such a case U.V. would not be a problem where blocked, and Perchlorate may even be an Oxidizer.

3) Length of Martian Year:
https://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/extr … 0%20154%20

So, a growing season will potentially be almost twice as long as for Earth.

So summer in the polar areas is the best chance for moderate night time temperatures, as the nights are relatively short in the summers in those areas.

So, then if terraformed these may be the most farmable areas, at least the areas requiring the least assistance per temperatures above killing frosts.

Even so, for Vascular plants, the use of greenhouses and irrigation may be the method.  These greenhouses might not be pressurized, if the terraform has gone well enough.

However, if genetic engineering can add features such as what Lichen have it may be that better endurance of frost and also maybe the ability to absorb water out of the atmosphere may be obtained.

Even at 333 mBar pressure, the lower latitudes will likely have frequent frost at night, and perhaps no useful growing seasons without greenhouse intervention, or space mirror interventions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-07 14:09:40)


Done.

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#88 2021-12-10 15:32:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, ran into this per thinking on Mars water loss to space.
https://phys.org/news/2021-12-planetary … -mars.html
Quote:

Planetary scientist Erdal Yiğit, with George Mason University, has published a Perspective piece in the journal Science suggesting that upper atmospheric interactions with solar wind cannot fully explain the loss of surface water on Mars. In his paper, he suggests three other major factors need to be taken into consideration as well: gravity waves, convection and dust storms.

I think that those are real factors.  However I also subscribe to the notion that a lot of water went under ground, as Hydrated Minerals, Ice, and likely artesian/pressurized aquifers.  The permafrost thickness and coldness so deep, that it may be seldom that liquid water ever emerges to the surface.

Even if an artesian spring occurred, it would result in an ice covered pond or lake, and that would quickly be covered in dust, and this process would then likely stem the flow, and so allow the vent that allowed the water up to freeze shut.

Deep buried ice:
https://www.futurity.org/ice-on-mars-20 … 20research.
Quotes:

It could be one of the largest water reservoirs on the planet, according to new research.

If melted, the newly discovered polar ice would be equivalent to a global layer of water around Mars at least 1.5 meters (5 feet) deep.

So, that in itself, if converted to Oxygen would provide an atmosphere addition of ~not quite 50 mBar, which would get the planet very near to a very active biosphere.  Say ~12 mBar from existing atmosphere + CO2 in ice caps.  + ~50, lets say with Hydrogen loss ~60 mBar on average.  And low spots to be somewhat higher.  Hellas ??? ~~~90 mBar???

But of course there is other ice also to use.

Interesting question is, if you melted that 1 mile deep ice, could you put supports in and keep it as a cavern system?

Maybe more evolved people could.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-10 15:40:47)


Done.

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#89 2021-12-13 10:53:35

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I am going to add this here, as it does suggest a path to microbial farms, and also rocket propellants.

https://phys.org/news/2021-12-life-aros … nergy.html
Quote:

Life arose on hydrogen energy

That's their claim, and I neither affirm it or dispute it.

My feeling is that a great deal of good could be done on Mars by having heated vats of water, nested inside of ice covered bodies of water, and adding the chemicals of use, Hydrogen and Martian atmosphere to the mix, along with other nutrients.

I have mentioned these things before, but it seems that the Sabatier Reaction is the Holy Holy Holy Gospel on this site.
Granted even I think that it could be used, at least at first.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ea … r-reaction

But the nested chambers I mentioned could produce Methane, and a concentration of non consumed gasses, which would likely be dominated by Nitrogen and Argon.  And the microbial biomass could be collected for an input to other processes, even possibly human food, if not toxic or repugnant.

Done..

Last edited by Void (2021-12-13 10:59:13)


Done.

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#90 2021-12-14 15:55:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, the members in this topic, have posted some interesting materials, particularly post #2.

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Cast Iron / Cast Steel Architecture

From post #2 per Robert Dyck:
https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA12861
http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacia … s-on-mars/

Alright, I will intend to return, I am thinking Fossil Cold sources, renewable cold smile, and sandstone vaults for Mar.  Also above ground constructions linked to those.

I guess I would prefer significant Sandstone deposits, in proximity of significant ice deposits, ideally at a preferred Latitude.

https://www.universetoday.com/144709/th … beautiful/

Done for now.

So, just some notions about carving in Sandstone:
SdobHjv.png

I may describe later a bit more about this.

So, I regard working with Ice, Water, and Sandstone as some potential easy claims for survival of a civilization for Mars.

I don't think that there has to be much of an issue about running out of cold on Mars.  The sky is cold for the most part on average, and the subsurface is cold.

For the hot side, of course we want nuclear and various types of solar.

It is my intention that armored lakes will connect to carved caves in sandstone, where it is possible to find these two potentials associated in proximity.

Permafrost on Mars:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -5418-2_38
Quote:

Permafrost exists at all latitudes on Mars and subsurface ice probably is abundant. The temperatures and pressures characteristic of each location or region determine, to a large extent, the depth and distribution of permafrost. Together with ground water salinity, they control the ice content, strength and deformation characteristics, in addition to other physical and electrical properties of local permafrost. Calculations based on the Viking Mission Data indicate that permafrost thicknesses range from about 3.5 km at the equator to approximately 8 km in the polar regions. The depths to the bottom of Martian permafrost are more than three times the depth characteristic of permafrost in terrestrial polar locations.

So we can get cold from ice deposits.  We can carve caves in sandstone to get cold.

If we can drill down to an aquifer, then that water is likely to be salty and cold.

I have on occasion tried to think of how to input sunlight into ice covered bodies of water.  And I still have notions that I have yet to better disclose.

But lets make ice armor and keep the sunlight and heat out of the ice from the atmosphere and suns photons, as we may wish.  Lets make heat radiators that also offer this protection.

Lets try to do it with "Urea Brick Technology".

OK, "Tiles" with heat exchanger fins that can be placed on top of the ice.  A poly film can be put under the tiles, to be a vapor barrier.
CrxObcz.png

Dark blue is water.
Light blue is ice.
Only one tile shown, but it would have many siblings.

The tiles might receive a light pigment of some kind to make them more reflective.

But before sunlight would impinge on them, it would have to get past an array of Heliostats which would intercept much of the light that might hit them during the day.

The energy from the heliostats could be conducted by various means to a heat engine setup, possibly involving tanks of hot water in the lake below, or in sandstone vaults.

I am tired but satisfied for now.  Music.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Oy … &FORM=VIRE

Done for the night.


.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-15 10:26:16)


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#91 2021-12-15 10:29:12

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I want to capture some materials from Robert Dyck, Post #2, "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Cast Iron / Cast Steel Architecture"

Quote:

We don't need to transport water over long distances. Instead build your city next to a major deposit of ice.

Glaciers discovered by the shallow radar instrument called SHARAD on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA12861

This map of a region known as Deuteronilus Mensae, in the northern hemisphere, shows locations of the detected ice deposits in blue. The yellow lines indicate ground tracks of the radar observations from multiple orbits of the spacecraft.

The ice, up to 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) thick, is found adjacent to steep cliffs and hillsides, where rocky debris from slopes covers and protects the ice from sublimation into the atmosphere.

The base map of this image is shaded relief topography obtained by the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor. The image is centered at 42.2 degrees north latitude and 24.7 degrees east longitude. It covers an area 1050 kilometers by 775 kilometers (650 miles by 481 miles).

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacia … s-on-mars/

A global map of Mars showing the distributions of features thought to be debris-covered glaciers (shown in yellow) in Mars’ mid-latitude regions. The basemap is made of colour images from the Viking 1 and Viking 2 orbiters. The glacier distributions are from maps by Levy et al. 2014 3 and Souness et al. 2012

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacia … s-on-mars/

A glacier-like form in Mars’ northern mid-latitudes (42° north, a similar latitude to northern Spain on Earth). It is approximately 8 km long. This perspective view was generated from 25 cm resolution images taken by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on the NASA Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft. The HiRISE image is draped over a 3D surface which was generated from two ‘stereo pair’ images taken from different angles by the spacecraft.

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacia … s-on-mars/

A lineated valley fill in Mars’ northern mid-latitudes. The inferred direction of past ice flow is from the bottom to the top of the image. The main trunk is fed by two large tributary glaciers. Image mosaic from the Context Camera on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.

A ‘concentric crater fill’ type glacier occupying an impact crater in Mars’ northern mid-latitudes. The distinctive concentric surface flowlines give these features their name. In this example, the glacier has almost completely infilled the crater; only the rim of the crater is visible. Image mosaic from the Context Camera on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacia … s-on-mars/

Most people want a location close to the equator. Mars is cold so you want the warmest possible location. There's also the "frozen pack ice" of Elysium Planetia.
From the European Space Agency: ESA’s Mars Express sees signs of a ‘frozen sea’

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … frozen_sea

This image, taken by the High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) on board ESA’s Mars Express spacecraft, shows what appears to be a dust-covered frozen sea near the Martian equator.

It shows a flat plain, part of the Elysium Planitia, that is covered with irregular blocky shapes. They look just like the rafts of fragmented sea ice that lie off the coast of Antarctica on Earth. This scene, taken during orbit 32, is a few tens of kilometres across, and is centred on latitude 5º North and longitude 150º East.
The water that formed the sea appears to have originated beneath the surface of Mars, and to have come out through a series of fractures known as the Cerberus Fossae, from where it flowed in a catastrophic flood.

It collected in a vast area about 800 kilometres long and 900 kilometres wide with a depth of about 45 metres. As the water started to freeze, floating pack ice broke up into rafts. These became later covered in ash and dust from volcanic eruptions in the region.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … frozen_sea

Above image is from New Scientist, taken by High Resolution Stereo Camera on Mars Express. It shows "sploosh" craters. They can only form by meteorite impacts on ice. The perfectly smooth bowl of the crater is ice melted by the impact. The floor of the crater in the centre is flat and rough, that's the ground beneath the ice. And a small pit in that flat floor is where the meteorite impacted. The ridge around the rim is where slush splashed up and froze. These craters show scientists depth of the ice, and is how ESA scientists confirm the ice is still there.

Note: the volume of ice in the "frozen pack ice" is greater than all the water in the Great Lakes combined, and depth is the same as Lake Erie. Or equal to the water of the North Sea.

Well, I think I did not so bad in capturing the materials.  Thanks very much Robert for the reference materials.

In the previous post, I indicated some types of ice armor for ice covered bodies of water on Mars.

The hope is to create these tools with relatively low grade raw materials, and to beneficiate the raw materials into methods of crafting the processes on Mars to human benefits.

Be aware that where it may be possible to create transparent domes on "Land", it will also be possible to do so, on ice, with some precautions of method to preserve the ice.  Furthermore, I intend to get into "Light Pipes", to allow
photons into created ice covered bodies of water.

SubQuote from the Quote:

The ice, up to 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) thick, is found adjacent to steep cliffs and hillsides, where rocky debris from slopes covers and protects the ice from sublimation into the atmosphere.

The above SubQuote is both treasure and hazard.  Hazard management will be needed to obtain the treasure(s).

I think I have already described "Ice Armor" methods both Opaque and light passing.  These would be costly investments, and even opaque heat fin tiles are tools, we would not want to damage.

But, without management methods, the ice cover will likely sag and flex to the degree that would not be desired, and which likely could damage installed infrastructure, "Ice Armor".

As ice would be melted, the resulting water would shrink the volume of containment.  There would be a remedy for that.  Simply bring more regolith of solid objects into the liquid volume.  There should be plenty of loose regolith in most areas.  Also if you carve sandstone chambers, then the spoils from that could go into the liquid water.

The same solution may apply to the using up of water to make things like Methane for propellants.  And consuming water.  We will not likely have precipitation or replacement water from high latitude aqueduct for a long time.

However Robert has indicated in the subquote a ice depth of 1 km/.6 miles.  Thanks for the non-metric consideration Robert.

We can be grateful, if the ice contains some regolith, as when the upper portions melt, that regolith, and also the regolith brought into the liquid, will tend to cover the deeper ice, with a "Paper weight" effect, and also thermal insulation.  We will not want "Icebergs" "Calving" off and upward, and so then the water going under them.

Instead we want a slow melt.  We then could continuously bring in more regolith to compensate for the shrinkage from ice converting to water.

-----
There will be a difference between slanted glacial ice and flat ice.

Actually if it is a slanted glacier, we may be able to create streams of melt water under them to flow into a lake, so, that may be a little different.

I guess I will tire out now, but I will attempt to demonstrate a possible solar swimming pool drawing of sorts.

Li2Pavx.png

Grey is insulation.  Brown is Regolith.  Light Blue is ice.  Darker Blue liquid water.

These could be pressurized for Humans, or of less pressure for farming or solar sollection.

Heliostat mirrors could add much more light to them than what the sun would shine in more naturally.

I am thinking of Alon, in the hopes that it is resistant to solar shock.

If as a swimming pool or farm, then in the event of air leak(s), it might be possible for humans to swim down to breathing and survival methods before they would pass out from the effects of pressure drops.

Done.

See, I can say the word "Dome and not Doom".  smile

It is good, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-17 14:53:20)


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#92 2021-12-15 13:00:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I might try to make the case that if regolith were regularly imported into a portion of the lake, it might be that special microbes might liberate Oxygen from it as a desired and promoted process.

And I think that nuclear fission could be made to fit in safely, if it is done with sensible methods.


In other words, large bodies of water will have thermal and chemical resources to withstand global dust storms, and long winter seasons.

Done.


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#93 2021-12-15 14:24:47

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

The question of Perchlorate becomes interesting as in the model projected here it would be anticipated that surface regolith will regularly be dropped into a created body of water, to make up for water volume deficit.

At the potential volumes it may become a significant raw material.

Some reference articles:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … 198C6FD4AB
Quote:


Perchlorate on Mars: a chemical hazard and a resource for humans
Published online by Cambridge University Press:  12 June 2013

Alfonso F. Davila
,
David Willson
,
John D. Coates
and
Christopher P. McKay

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Abstract
Perchlorate (ClO4−) is widespread in Martian soils at concentrations between 0.5 and 1%. At such concentrations, perchlorate could be an important source of oxygen, but it could also become a critical chemical hazard to astronauts. In this paper, we review the dual implications of ClO4− on Mars, and propose a biochemical approach for removal of perchlorate from Martian soil that would be energetically cheap, environmentally friendly and could be used to obtain oxygen both for human consumption and to fuel surface operations.

I think this one thinks that aquifers with dissolved Perchlorates in them will exist, so that might be another approach.
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/50/31685

Hopefully it will be possible to maintain lake bottom integrity so that water will not flow down through the ice layers.  Even then though if it did I anticipate that the salts would be flushed out and so then the more pure water would freeze.

Of course toxic salts would not be added to the regular lake waters but rather a treatment polder, the polder walls made of regolith.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-15 14:34:33)


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#94 2021-12-15 19:32:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, water in the great canyon on Mars, it seems likely.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … 20as%20ice.
Quote:

ExoMars discovers hidden water in Mars’ Grand Canyon

Quote:

Epithermal Neutron Detector) neutron telescope.

Trace Gas Orbiter at Mars
Trace Gas Orbiter at Mars
“FREND revealed an area with an unusually large amount of hydrogen in the colossal Valles Marineris canyon system: assuming the hydrogen we see is bound into water molecules, as much as 40% of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water.”

The water-rich area is about the size of the Netherlands and overlaps with the deep valleys of Candor Chaos, part of the canyon system considered promising in our hunt for water on Mars.

I have to study this more.  I will also post this under the section on water for other members to also comment if they might wish.

https://science.nasa.gov/valles-mariner … anyon-mars

Pending.....(I think I have a good notion on solar energy at that location).

This is nice and related also smile  Interesting to read also.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub
Quote:

Highlights

FREND is an epithermal neutron telescope onboard ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter.


The instrument provides water content maps in the upper meter of the regolith.


Its high spatial resolution shows local hydrogen-rich features, Valles Marineris among them.


40.3 wight % water equivalent hydrogen is estimated in Candor Chaos, central part of Valles Marineris.

------

I think I may have an interesting notion on Solar Energy for that location(s).

Heliostats put on the walls of the canyon, to increase the energy flux in a settlement area.

If it is ice water, then Ice Armor to be used, but also in this case horizontal solar panels on frames above the ice.

Some solar cells can take very high temperatures.  Hundreds of degrees C.

So, it may be possible to create an "Energy Hot Spot" in such a place, and so have a faster growing economy due to the surplus energy.

Also, if the water is locked in minerals, then having a lot of energy will help to liberate it for use.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-15 19:55:33)


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#95 2021-12-15 19:57:43

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

My best guess is artesian springs.  If there is a water table, then any pools of water produced by artesian springs, would be ice covered, and that then dirt covered.

But if evaporation takes water away, then perhaps then the springs open again, and refill?  Well maybe.

I am thinking very salty water, even with Perchlorates, so it might be able to penetrate cracks in permafrost.

An accumulation of salts under the dirt, might also retard evaporation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-15 19:58:11)


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#96 2021-12-16 01:54:33

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

So, I am up again late, did have some sleep, but seems like my mind is on the Rift Valley Hydrogen finding.

It seems that on this Map, purple is the most Hydrogen suspected, blue not as much and yellow and red relatively "Dry".

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … and_Canyon

Quote: (Hydrogen Map)
https://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/ima … rticle.jpg

It is a nice Map now that I understand it better.  I wish there was an elevation map, that could parallel it, so that it might seem that low spots are "Wetter", but I don't know that just now.

It would be hard to get more equatorial.

Do water eruptions still happen on Mars today?  Why not ice volcano's on Mars?  We believe in them in smaller outer solar system objects.
But an ice volcano on Mars would quickly erode/evaporate, until a remnant/root were covered in some soil.  That seems likely.

This is another similar article:
https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon

------

But maybe Fossil Ice from ancient Mars?  I have pushed articles like this in the past:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5X13004145
Somewhere on this site I have posted a very extensive article on it. 

While that article suggests ice from very ancient times, this one suggests a periodic wet Mars, perhaps as recently as 1 Billion years ago.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/technology/mar … 788831.htm

So, that could also have helped to fill the rift valley with ice, which may have then been covered by regolith materials of avalanches, volcanic eruptions, and wind sediments.

Could-liquid-water-exist-in-the-Valles-Marineras-or-some-depressions-on-Mars
https://www.quora.com/Could-liquid-wate … ns-on-Mars

It is suspected that at times the ice caps might have been at lower latitudes, depending on the angle of the poles.
It seems to me very possible that heavy snows might have fallen into the rift valley at those times.  It see it as likely
that at those times the atmospheric pressure might have been twice as high as today.
https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/ma … xial-tilt/
https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2015/ … imate-mars
Quote:

An extreme tilt of the Martian axis would have pointed the planet’s poles at the Sun and driven polar ice to the equator, where water drainage and erosion features are seen today.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/ … 15095.html

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/608964
Quote:

Scientists have long known about glacial events on Mars, which are driven by variations in the planet's orbit and tilt. Over periods of about 50,000 years, Mars leans toward the sun before gradually returning to an upright position, like a wobbling spinning top. When the planet spins upright, the equator faces the sun, allowing the polar ice caps to grow. As the planet tilts, the ice caps retreat, perhaps vanishing entirely.

So, then perhaps about every 50,000 years it may be possible that a prolonged period of Martian snow happens at very low latitudes, perhaps including the rift valley.

On the other hand, if the air pressure were twice what it is now, then temporary streams may form from melting snowfalls, and that could recharge a planet wide water table, and indeed there might be or have been artesian springs in the rift valley.

So, is it fossil ice, artesian brine springs, or Hydrated minerals?  Well it may be 1, 2, or 3 of those.
Maybe all three at times. 

In any case it is a win.  I am very interested in finding out more.

Sedimentary Rocks in the Rift Valley:
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia0473 … ast-candor
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st04dec_2/
Quote:

Above: This Mars Global Surveyor image reveals the layered floor of western Candor Chasma
in the great martian canyon Valles Marinaris. The uniform pattern -- beds of similar properties and thickness repeated over a hundred times -- suggest that deposition was interrupted at regular or episodic intervals. Patterns like this, when found on Earth, usually indicate the presence of sediment deposited in dynamic, energetic, underwater environments.

And of course I see sandstone as a raw material to carve volumes which may be pressurized and heated.



Done

Last edited by Void (2021-12-16 02:45:52)


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#97 2021-12-16 11:00:32

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

OK, I have been thinking about the fact that some locations on Mars may be very hard to access for landing.  Spacnut has a query about it on: "Index» Water on Mars» Water in the Valles Marineris: The Grand Canyon of Mars, Post #2."

I guess the issue is "Valles Marineris".

I understand that the variability of the Martian atmosphere contributes to the problem.  Perseverance, was not good enough for a landing in the canyon from interplanetary space direct arrival.

Starship as currently planned has a very interesting limit of capability's.  It is supposed to refuel in LEO, and then go "Mars Direct" to the surface of Mars.  By the time it gets to it's landing it has very little margin for error.  But that was good thinking, really, as it would allow for access to Mars without any other support method other than LEO propellants, and communications with Earth, I presume.

But, if the Starship were given more assistance, and perhaps a lowering of expectations, per cargo mass, perhaps access to the canyon could be achieved.  I believe that I already know that unlike Falcon 9, which does a "Hover Slam", Starship could do a real hover, provided it had the propellant margins for it.

So, if it could get into a proper position, with propellant reserves, at a lower speed than interplanetary injection to Mars atmosphere, perhaps it could do better for accuracy and precision for landing.

It should not be a surprise that I would name "Ballistic Capture", with a "Hub" assembly.  I have mentioned it recently with these diagrams:

IP5GfkH.png

jMqkVPs.png

Ballistic Capture, if it works would offer a slower atmospheric injection speed.  I think a very crude comparison, would be:
6.5 rate of stress for interplanetary injection.
4.0 rate of stress for Low Martian Orbit Injection.

Those are my numbers, and I based them on speeds that I think I read from the work of Dr. Zubrin.  They are crude estimates only, and I am the source of any faults in them.  Still, they could indicate a lessening of "Load". on the stress of achieving the Martian surface.

The diagrams above indicate a "Collection" of devices, intended to be more protective of humans in the space environment.  Protections from radiation and low gravity problems given a chance(s) for improvements.  These are likely needed for reasons that using a Ballistic Capture to Mars method, would apparently take more time.  However it has more launch windows than Hohmann, and might save propellants under some circumstances.

a, b, c, and d are each to be Ships.  They may connect to each other or to a hub in an assembly.

The "Hub" can be made of many things, but most likely does not need a heat shield of it's own.

I do not consider that waste, as many parts could eventually be carried down to the Martian surface using a Starship.  Also, I think it would be very wise to have a multiple colonization effort.  Target the moon(s) of Mars as appropriate along with 1 or more sites on the surface of Mars.

To bring "Hub" materials to one of those moons should not require a heat shield, unless it were a Starship returning to the surface of Mars to refuel, between service flights Mars>moon(s).

I would anticipate that the "Hub" would have an energy source, which may likely be solar, but lets be open for fission nuclear.

It may have propulsive methods incorporated into it which could include Methalox, Electric/Ion, nuclear electric, and nuclear.
Nuclear, of course will present complications for shielding humans.

Where you likely would not want to land a used nuclear reactor onto the surface of Mars, in the location of your settlement for fear of a crash, you might put it into a Mars-moon base.

I am also thinking of "Plasma Bubble" propulsion for the Hub.  A relatively simple version could not thrust against the solar wind but could be thrusted by the solar wind Earth/Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos.  This might also provide some additional radiation protection.

I did mention Methalox for the "Hub".  In fact it might be a "Depot".  So, this might be an opportunity to give the Starship some propellants in it's Main Tanks prior to a landing attempt.  To me, this suggests some better ability to maneuver into hard places to land.  ????

The thing about such Methalox tanks is that you would not land them on Mars.  Rather, you would be inclined to incorporate them into a Phobos or Deimos base.

Another penalty of "Ballistic Capture" is consumables.  You need more, for a longer flight.  However the waste from the humans also could be incorporated into a Phobos/Deimos base, presuming recycling had been started there.

In this, I will repeat that I think that a return trip Mars>Earth would most likely involve Hohmann transfer with injection to atmosphere from interplanetary space at high stress.  Maybe an 8.0?

------

To justify all of this of course you would want to be much more certain that the presumed water deposits in the canyon and other features at those locations are worth the trouble.  It looks to me that the answer could be yes.

If it turns out that it is worth it, then it might be considered to take some more load off of the landing Starships.  Maybe in a good site, it makes sense to deliver 75 tons rather than 100 tons, because the environment will be kinder.

Done.

Oh, I also left out that with a Ballistic Capture method with a base in one of the moons or more, if conditions of Mars are unfavorable for landing, it may be possible to delay landing.   Things like dust storms, and perhaps the swelling and contraction of the atmosphere of Mars, which is more of a problem than it is for the Earth's atmosphere, it would seem.

Done Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-16 11:51:48)


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#98 2021-12-16 20:06:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, here it is.  I was getting shy about showing this article, as nobody was saying there were ice readings in the Rift Valley Valles Marineris.

Curious that this site thinks this is spelled wrong: "Marineris"

But this article may or may not be correct, but they sure put a lot of work into it.

Some members have seen it before but may still be interested.  Some newer members may want to look at it.

https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
Quote:

An ancient glacial system in Valles Marineris, Mars

My feeling is that the fossil ice may be there, provided that on average, periods of additions of ice to the canyon happened when the axis was extremely tilted to warm the polar areas and leave the equator much colder than now.

There is much that needs to be proven, but my guess is that if the fossil ice is there, it has a lot of clathrates of other gasses entombed with it.

I am imagining when the planet had deteriorated to the point where the southern hemisphere no longer participated in a troposphere for the most part, and the Norther Hemisphere along with the Valles Marineris could still have a troposphere below the stratosphere.

With polar oscillations where the poles are more tilted, then the southern ice caps would evaporate, having a pressurization which would tend closer and closer to the triple point of water.  But the Northern ice cap still being under a troposphere, would support normal snows and perhaps snow melts, particularly if the snow and ice mixed with dust that would darken it.

But the sun tracking in the sky would pass overhead on the equator, twice a Martian year.  When it went to the southern hemisphere, the southern polar cap would evaporate easily.  This would be when the Valles Marineris would have one of it's two winters a year, (I think).

The sun gone to one of the poles, then the rift valley not as warm, at that time of season(s).

When the Northern polar area had it's summer, still having a troposphere, due to lower elevation than the southern polar areas, Snow clouds might travel across the northern basin, and in some cases get into the Valles Marineris, that rift valley would be in one of it's cooler periods.  So I anticipate that snow would accumulate in it from the warmer northern basin portions.  So, I think the rift Valley may have been a snow magnet.  The altitude would keep the snow clouds below the lip of the canyon, often, and still snow clouds could drift into it, I think.

The article talks about wet based glaciation.  My feeling is that there may have been periods of melting of snowfalls, and that would have sucked atmosphere down with the liquid water that could flow into cracks in the ice mass of the valley.  That would tend to pressurize as it flowed under deep ice.  I feel that it could be possible that much of the atmosphere got vacuumed into such a tomb, and so things got colder and colder.  Likely if this did happen there could be atmospheric gasses locked into clathrates at base of the ice, provided, it really is still there.

Maybe............?????

If not true the article on the fossil ice is still quite interesting.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-16 20:33:16)


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#99 2021-12-16 21:50:58

Void
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Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

From the Angry Astronaut:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … F2BC9EDD58

I have some significant agreement with him.

I am interested in the notion that there may be suitable landing locations in the Rift Valley.

He mentions lava tubes as well, and resources, but does not mention sandstone habitats.  Still, very good!

Done.


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#100 2021-12-17 10:30:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,546

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Fossil ice from ages ago, artesian upwellings from a water table/aquifer(s), snowfalls when the polar axis is favorable to a cold canyon and warmer poles.  All possibilities, things to learn more about.

But what about the possibilities of a moisture concentration method due to night activities associated with certain landforms?

This morning, I am speculating on night rivers of air, and "Air-Falls" into the canyon tributaries.  Also catabatic effects, and local greenhouse effects.

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A little background on my previous thinking:
I was thinking about glassing over ancient river valleys.  The idea would be to allow heavy night air laden with high humidity to run down it.

Of course, that would tend to humidify the interior of the tube, provided that you blocked the entrance and exit during the day.

Anyway, I had never progressed to what I felt might be a cost worthy method.

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But the rift valley and the rest of Mars may "breathe" moisture into the canyon.

We know that on Earth, frosty air flows downhill and killing frosts are more likely earlier in the lower places than on a hill, due to the cold air flows.



Reportedly the nights on Mars have very little wind.  However, I think we should check for night winds around and in the rift valley.



We have had most observations about the canyon in sunlight.  Sometimes there is a fog in parts of the canyon.

Things about the canyon:
1) It should have a stronger greenhouse effect than the areas above it.
2) It has an outlet pointing to the northern plains, if colder air were to sink into it.
3) Heavy humidity laden cold air of night should sink into it.
4) Updrafts should occur during the day, and also persist into the evenings.
5) Although some warm air may rise out of it at night, cold air may very well sink into its tributaries at various times of night.

I think that warmer cold air with water vapor in it might not be that heavy.  However, if ice fogs, and supercooled droplets were to form, that will likely tend to make it heavy, relative to warm air from the canyon, down below.

A description of the general vapor cycle on flat parts of Mars, is that during the day the soil gives up moisture to the sky, and at night the sky tends to drive the moisture downward, and also the Humidity elevates.  Sometimes to very high values.

I think adsorption and absorption, creation of water droplets possibly, in the soils.

I am locking up yet again, will need to pause.

Later......

So, to make it short and sweet, it seems to me that it is quite possible that the canyon receives moisture from the plains above, and of course those get it from
the ice cap having summer.

I think a concentration method is possible, and since liquid water without salt is just possible in places on the canyon floor there could actually be mist, or even
drizzle.  However, most likely salts in the soil absorbing moisture, and really just possibly a greater wetting of the soil.

Not a probability, just a possibility.

We need night observations of air flows, humidity, ect.

Done.

Note: The Great Salt Lake absorbs a lot of moisture directly from winter air, due to the saltiness, and cold.  So, in the possible line of how moisture could be concentrated into the Hydrogen rich deposits in the canyon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-12-17 10:57:25)


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