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#76 2021-11-30 20:17:45

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Here is another video about using Phobos to help make a magnetosphere for Mars.  This one explains more.

You of course can appropriate this Spacenut.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … &FORM=VIRE

My own feeling is that Phobos should also have Skyhooks, and that magnetic fields in various locations, Mars, Phobos, and Deimos, should be able to push and pull on each other.

A way to sort of anchor on Phobos or Deimos would be to use a magnetic field in your space device/spacecraft, to attract to the moon.  The moons should have plenty of magnetic materials, Iron, Nickle.

Then Harpoons to hard anchor, or in finding a large rock, then rock anchors on those.

Perhaps then "Shelling" the whole moon with a sphere of solar panels, as power will be needed.

Of course I am an advocate of synthetic gravity machines in orbit, to provide the most optimal simulated gravitation field for human health.

No one knows if adult, fetus, child humans can be healthy on the surface of Mars, without synthetic gravity anyway, and for how long.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-30 20:23:41)


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#77 2021-12-03 06:59:15

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban wrote:

I am a strong proponent of micro nuclear pulse propulsion.  Future use of nuclear weapons will inevitably increase back ground radiation levels on Earth.  We might as well accept that fact and deploy atmospheric nuclear detonations for a more productive purpose.  We need propulsion systems that will allow large ships to take off and land on Earth reusable and fly between Earth and other planets with direct throw capability on a single tank of fuel.  That means T/W ratio better than 1 and ISP better than 1000.  There is no way of achieving that without nuclear pulse, because thrust x ISP = power.  The power requirements become difficult if you introduce heat transfer across solid boundaries, so nuclear pulse it must be.  I believe that it is possible to use very small amounts of fissile material to ignite compressed deuterium pellets.  In this way, fission provides only the trigger for a fusion dominated pulse.  This allows for high thrust and high ISP with minimal radioactivity.

There is no space drive technology that is even close to practicality that can achieve high ISP and high thrust simultaneously, without deploying a nuclear reaction as an energy source.  Even pure fusion would release some radioactivity as neutrons interact with the air.  So at some point conversions need to be had around acceptable levels of pollution of Earth's atmosphere in exchange for access to the new frontier and its resources.  At some point, conventional rocketry will start to become a significant aggrevating factor in atmospheric warming, as it pumps water vapour into the upper atmosphere.  Eventually, nuclear pulse propulsion will be used because it is in the final consideration, more environmentally friendly.

Incidentally, this puts in my mind a new terraforming method for Mars.  Large ships powered by fission-fusion microexplosions could use water as propellant and would pump the Martian ionosphere with hydrogen and hydroxyl ions.  A fraction of these would recombine to form water molecules which would create a powerful greenhouse effect.  It is something that will end up happening whether we want it to or not.  On Earth, we could use sulphur as a propellant in the upper atmosphere.  The resulting sulphate aerosols will have an atmospheric cooling effect.  On the moon, probably any solid material will be adequate as a propellant.  At temperatures of 10,000K, almost all materials break down into dissociated ions.  But you need a material that you can pump and ideally can be used for regenerative cooling of the expansion chamber.  Maybe liquid magnesium, aluminium or sodium?  Liquid oxygen is a possibility.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#78 2021-12-03 07:25:04

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void wrote:

Although this is not directly Mars terraforming, I think it is very likely that
Mars terraforming will require boots on the ground and in orbit.  So, I am putting
this here.  I will be comfortable with criticism, but not so much rigid thinking.
I have borrowed from Robert Zubrin quite a bit, and also from members on this site.

This is worth a read, in my opinion.
https://phys.org/news/2021-10-martian-r … -mars.html

I think that it is good to consider alternatives.  I cannot judge the value of this
one, but it is good for them to try something.

The paper you link is talking about using cyano bacteria to produce biomass that are then converted into liquid fuels.  It could be made to to work.  But I think the algae will need supplementary heat to grow on Mars.  This sort of plan doesn't work without a nuclear reactor to provide supplentary heat.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#79 2021-12-03 13:36:11

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I like to fancy that I may have a bit of hunter-gatherer in my blood, so, when I pass by something of interest, I may put it in my pouch.

Seriously though, I do think that Fission Nuclear, it a fine tool for Mars, even better than Earth.  I feel that if I were to implement it for Mars, I would do it in once again, "(Ice Covered Pools".  I feel that in many cases at higher latitudes, if you had a spill of some kind, you could simply let that pool freeze over deep, and so, that would likely give isolation.

Certainly the energy would be useful.

Done.


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#80 2021-12-03 19:12:05

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

One can also use solar concentrating heat with an exchangers submerged in the pond to provide that heat source for the mars application.

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#81 2021-12-06 10:46:13

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I stumbled on this, and I think it could be related to Lichen which might in time grow on Mars, and also the possibility that humans may also engineer plants for Mars, that can better tolerate frost, and also draw water from the atmospheres daily thermal cycling.

https://phys.org/news/2021-12-limit.html
Quote:

Researcher pushes limit of when water will freeze

Lichen Metabolism in cold temperatures:  (Lichen can of course recover from very cold temperatures, but even can be active at ~(>-20 degC).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7796000075
Quote:

Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.

So, in Mars conditions, without salts, liquid water cannot exist in any significant amount on the surface.  But in the tissues of Lichen, I presume it can be made to be liquid at temperatures quite below the normal freezing point of fresh water.  Lichens have been shown to even prosper in cracks in rocks in Mars simulations on Earth done, I believe, by Germans.

So, it would seem that the Lichens in the cracks must be able to pull water from the air in the night cold, or morning light. 

My notion is that as morning light makes exposed surfaces shed moisture that may be bonded to them, and to the Martian "Air" above those surfaces, the thermal inertia of the cracks retaining cold a bit longer may attract that moisture into those cracks to produce an amplified relative humidity, for a short period of time.  Then the Lichen tissues can absorb/adsorb the water molecules and cause them to be liquid at temperatures well below the freezing point of fresh water.  I have to presume that a forced liquid water is the method as I think that a vapor or solid would not be supportive of the metabolism of the Lichens.

This then produces an interesting question:  The better survival of Lichen in cracks in rock or soil has been attributed to the notion that the U.V. flux is reduced to 1/40th or less in the cracks relative to normal surface.  That notion has merit in my mind, as Lichen metabolism is slow, and may only need 1/40th or less red and blue light, but would not enjoy 40 or more times the amount of U.V.

And that may be very true.  However, I wonder about the relative collection of water from the air.  Are the cracks also more friendly as per concentrating RH% than the typical rock or soil surfaces?

So, it may be some of both, or maybe not.  Don't know yet.

The point is the first level of terraforming we can hope to attain would be to double the atmospheric pressure.  We might suppose that this will be helpful, as the air might contain more moisture, and perhaps even the spectrum might be better.  This would be achieved by vaporizing all of the CO2 available in the Polar ice caps.

Another layer of improvement, from life/human standpoint would be to impose an artificial magnetic field.  This would be expected to help retain Oxygen produced by Photolysis, and that just might result in a Ozone layer of some degree.

Without the addition of buffer gasses such as Nitrogen and Argon, the best atmosphere that might eventually be produced would be dominated by Oxygen, at perhaps 333 mBar.

This would still have large thermal cycles day and night, which would actually be helpful to some life such as Lichens.  We don't know what level of Ozone layer can be expected to be producible.

So, if Terraforming is anticipated, I would expect that it would be wise to do many experiments, on the various states that the Martian environment might be changed to.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 11:07:39)


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#82 2021-12-06 11:55:10

Calliban
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Terraformer wrote:

A 20mbar Martian CO2 atmosphere isn't something we can breath and it doesn't negate the need for surface habitats to be pressure vessels.

It does if they're just for producing biomass. And most of the land we need will be for producing biomass. If we can make vast areas suitable for growing hardy trees and grasses, then colonisation becomes far far easier. Especially if there is a few mb of oxygen in the air that can be pulled out whenever we need it, removing the need to carry bulky tanks with us when travelling or for buffering habitats.

This paper reports on studies carried out on rye grass grown at lower atmospheric pressure.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/198 … 010460.pdf

Interestingly, rye will grow at pressure as low as 70mbar.  However, most of the partial pressure must be oxygen.  Plants must breath just as humans must.

Whilst humans cannot breath a 70mbar atmosphere, it should be much easier making a counter pressure suit to provide 100mbar of additional counterpressure.  63mbar rated poly-tunnels would be easier to construct that 200mbar tunnels.  Such tunnels can be thin polymer, maybe even poly-ethylene reinforced using steel ribs.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-06 12:11:22)


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#83 2021-12-06 12:31:45

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, an interesting thing I have discovered/read today is that Lichen evolved much later than land plants.  And they do not seem to have that same level of Oxygen need.  Perhaps they store Oxygen from the day.  But they can go dormant for long periods of time and revive, so they might endure the cold of a long dust storm or winter.

Lichen does not appear to be able to compete with vascular plants, so generally takes environments that vascular plants do not do so well with.  The metabolism of them is slow, but that can be in a large part because of the marginal environments that they inhabit.

Some people might be horrified if I suggested that we might cause the evolution of Lichen into things resembling plants.  However, I would not very much worry, as I expect that they could not compete very well with Vascular plants on Earth.  Mars could be a different matter.

I anticipate that a partially terraformed Mars, 12-333 mBar, might have many environments that Lichen derived life may out compete vascular plants in. 

We might find alpine plants that could sort of cope, and they might be modified by various means.

However, they likely would not be well suited to many terraformed Martian environments with more potential than the places where Lichen exist on Earth.

Lichens, having solved rather well the problems of extreme cold, frost crystals, dryness, and cycling temperatures, may provide a base for something that could perhaps artificially be evolved for Mars.

One problem to solve is nutrients.  Lichen don't seem to have roots.  But they are part Fungi.  Could we get them to work with other fungi in the soil to deliver nutrients to them?  Again, I don't think that this would yield things that would be very competitive to vascular life on Earth.

So, you see the direction I am going.  Vascular plants took some of the easy paths, and Lichen took what was left.  That caused Lichen to develop extreme methods to exist/persist.  Those methods may be valuable on Mars.  But Lichen as it would be of limited agricultural value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 12:41:36)


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#84 2021-12-06 15:59:20

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have thought about it more.

I don't think that guiding the evolution of Lichen is that silly.

We have other presumed examples of the merging of organisms by symbiosis, that
have then become the great families of life on this planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

How did plants get Chlorophyll?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophy … iphosphate

This new family which apparently is young may be rather plastic at this time, as it will host Algae or Cyanobacteria.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

It may be easier to cause Lichen to develop parallel to vascular plants where useful than to try to give vascular plants to develop the endurance of Lichen.

A Lichen that is almost a crop:
Reindeer Moss:  https://nordgrona.com/reindeer-moss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladonia_rangiferina
Quote: (Uses)

Uses
This lichen can be used in the making of aquavit,[citation needed] and is sometimes used as decoration in glass windows. The lichen is used as a traditional remedy for removal of kidney stones by the Monpa in the alpine regions of the West Kameng district of Eastern Himalaya.[14] The Inland Dena'ina used reindeer lichen for food by crushing the dry lichen and then boiling it or soaking it in hot water until it becomes soft. They eat it plain or, preferably, mixed with berries, fish eggs, or lard. The Inland Dena'ina also boil reindeer lichen and drink the juice as a medicine for diarrhea. Due to acids present in lichens, their consumption may cause an upset stomach, especially if not well cooked.[15]

A study released in May 2011 claims that some species of lichens, including Cladonia rangiferina, are able to degrade the deadly prion implicated in transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs) through the enzyme serine protease.[16]

According to a study released in 2017, Northern Sweden that reindeer lichen were able to grow on burnt soil as soon as two years after a forest fire. This study provides a great opportunity to use reindeer lichen as a fire management option. [17]

Of course Reindeer Moss, the Lichen is not the same as the Antarctic Lichens that seemed to have some endurance for Mars.  But, perhaps by increasing the Nutrition and Productivity, (If possible), and trying to incorporate some of the properties of endurance, it may become a useful crop for Mars some day. 

Probably a lot of work, but maybe possible, and maybe worth it.

I have been thinking that perhaps by making the created crops very dependent on being given nutrients by humans, a symbiosis would be created, and there would be less chances of it getting out of control.

However, this is the truth about the existing Reindeer Moss.  It would have the quality of tolerance of cold, and do good with less sunlight, which is how Mars is, but of course it could not grow on Mars as it is now.  Lots of work would be needed to create a new breed with tolerance for hard conditions as well.

But, I note that it gets its nutrition from the air for the most part, but does not tolerate pollution very well.  That then indicates that it might be possible for it to be made dependent on extra nutrients supplied by humans, but it would seem likely that it would hate the dust of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-06 16:13:51)


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#85 2021-12-07 05:13:26

Calliban
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with lichen.  But as things stand, it is the totality of conditions on Mars that will defeat them.  Temperatures that rarely rise above freezing and dip to -90°C at night.  Low atmospheric pressure and an O2 partial pressure in microbars.  Unfiltered UV radiation.  A cold, dry atmosphere.  Highly basic soil, contaminated with perchlorate.  There may be things that could survive any one of these conditions in isolation.  But in totality, it looks daunting.  A thin sheet of polymer staked to the ground, might give these things a chance.  Oxygen could accumulate underneath; temperatures would be warmer and the polymer can be coated to shield out UV.  But it raises the question of what we are trying to achieve?  Are we going to eat lichen?  Or is the idea to provide a foot hold for something that can slowly increase atmospheric O2 levels by fixing carbon?

Your original suggestion of ice covered ponds probably represents the best near term bet of carving out habitable environments on Mars.  Places like Korelov crater.  In that location, we could simply add nuclear heat under the ice and create an ice covered pond that would be habitable for many species.  The ice sheet would prevent oxygen from escaping from the water and limit that rate that CO2 dissolves into it.

There has been surprisingly little research into the ability of land plants to tolerate low pressure environments.  We know that rye grass grows well in a 70mbar almost pure O2 environment.  What about 10-12mbar?  Could anything grow in that?  If so, then simple non-pressurised greenhouses built in Hellas basin might be used to grow some plants.  The glass or plastic roof could be coated to remove UV.  The atmosphere inside would be 12mbar almost pure O2 with some water vapour.  If it doesn't have to be pressurised it makes construction way easier.  The polymer membrane will limit water loss through evapouration and water vapour would condense as icicles, that then drop back into the ponds.  Those greenhouses could be soil berms, with a sheet of ETFE over the top.  Without differential pressure, building such things is easier.

Aquatic plants like micro algae might do OK in an environment like this.  Water containing algae could be contained in plastic lined ponds which are pumped through these greenhouses.  We have discussed algae before.  The ponds would develop an ice covering at night and would probably freeze to the bottom in winter.  But if only a tiny fraction of algae survive, they can repopulate the water in spring.  Algae is something that we can find some immediate uses for on Mars.  Food for animals.  A healthy food additive for people.  Feedstock for methane and carbon chemistry.  Organic fertiliser for soils.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-07 05:27:10)


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#86 2021-12-07 08:40:55

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

It's a great shame they only used rye grass in the 70mb experiment, since barley is an actual grain crop and more useful to know about. But even it it is only tough inedible (to humans) grasses we can grow under very low pressure... if we can grow 10 tonnes of grass for the same cost as a tonne of grain, then dairy animals may make sense to bring along, to convert that grass to edible calories.


Use what is abundant and build to last

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#87 2021-12-07 13:08:40

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, guys, I see a lot of evidence that you did not actually read my materials.

I have specified Mars as it is, Mars with an atmosphere average of 12 mBar, and all the way up to 333 mBar, unless someone can find Nitrogen and Argon to allow the pressure to be pushed higher than that.

With some Lichen at least Oxygen is not going to be a problem, as far as I can see.

OK, the Germans did Mars simulations.  I do not feel that they were accurate enough.  I don't know if they included the amounts of CO, and O2 that are in the Mars atmosphere.  I am quite sure that they did not simulate the toxic dust.  But they did establish that the Lichen could adapt to their simulation if in a protected place like a crack in a rock or soil.  It would draw water from night time humidity, and could do Photosynthesis at -17 degC and above.  Can become active to a degree at -20 degC.

I am not sure if they input the correct amount of U.V. flux.

Anyway, they showed that a limited simulation would allow Lichen and Cyanobacteria to survive and even thrive in their simulations.

Calliban, it is odd that you approach this once again as a binary argument.  I do not intend to abandon waking up the Hydrosphere.  For the most part on Mars, that will have to be ice covered waters.  And in many circumstances that ice will need armor to not evaporate away too fast.

I have approached this with the idea that since Lichen is relatively a recent arrival on Earth, it has not evolved into all the versions that it might evolve into.  It may never outcompete Vascular plants in many places.

Lichen: (I have read that it has been determined that Lichen began existence about 250 Millions years ago, so did not precede plants).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichen

I am of the opinion that microbial mats are the origin of the emergence of multicellular life.  Most multicellular life has changed so much that it seems that the original microbes cannot be identified.  However we have Mitocondria, and the adoption of Chlorophyll in plants from microbes.

Lichen is not nearly that far along yet.

I have mentioned that Reindeer Moss, a Lichen actually does have some low level agricultural productivity.  I have mentioned that extreme forms of Lichen have methods to survive extreme environments, much better than Vascular plants.

------

I have the notion that human abilities to manipulate Lichen for Mars, will either increase, and increase, or will disappear, if our cultures fall.

If our cultures do not fall, but the abilities continue to increase, it may be that a modified line of Lichen for Mars could be created that may be both productive and have greater endurances than would Vascular plants.

------

There is a general behavior that only lists how Mars is not as good as Earth.

I can identify at least 3 situations where Mars is better than Earth, but those things will not be as apparent unless the planet is at least partially terraformed.

1) For Mars, due to the day night temperature cycles, some life forms such as Lichen can get a drink of water directly out of humid night or early morning atmosphere.

This likely happens in places like Antarctica as it is now.  For actual liquid water not from Rain or Snow, you could look to Namibia.  And environments like Namibia, (Sort Of) may end up existing on Mars, if it is partially terraformed.  We likely cannot fully terraform Mars.

2) CO and O2 in the atmosphere, Methane and probably Hydrogen as well.

This is known to happen in Antarctica:
https://theconversation.com/antarctic-b … uel-171808
https://microbiologycommunity.nature.co … c-microbes

This is why I am not as concerned about Methane as a greenhouse gas, as for CO2.  Methane is both a source of Energy, (With the provision of an Oxidizer), and Carbon and it turns out also Water.

It turns out that trees conduct Methane from soil, and out of their bark, and microbes there consume most of it.

If we create Lichen, and Fungi, and Vascular plants we should want them all to be able to use disequilibrium in the atmosphere for energy and for Carbon and Water, along with Photosynthesis, where appropriate.

It is quite possible that microbes may be able to live in a sheltered crack or other space in regolith, and pull water out of the air at low temperatures, and also get gasses to consume for their metabolisms.  In such a case U.V. would not be a problem where blocked, and Perchlorate may even be an Oxidizer.

3) Length of Martian Year:
https://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/extr … 0%20154%20

So, a growing season will potentially be almost twice as long as for Earth.

So summer in the polar areas is the best chance for moderate night time temperatures, as the nights are relatively short in the summers in those areas.

So, then if terraformed these may be the most farmable areas, at least the areas requiring the least assistance per temperatures above killing frosts.

Even so, for Vascular plants, the use of greenhouses and irrigation may be the method.  These greenhouses might not be pressurized, if the terraform has gone well enough.

However, if genetic engineering can add features such as what Lichen have it may be that better endurance of frost and also maybe the ability to absorb water out of the atmosphere may be obtained.

Even at 333 mBar pressure, the lower latitudes will likely have frequent frost at night, and perhaps no useful growing seasons without greenhouse intervention, or space mirror interventions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-07 14:09:40)


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#88 2021-12-10 15:32:58

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, ran into this per thinking on Mars water loss to space.
https://phys.org/news/2021-12-planetary … -mars.html
Quote:

Planetary scientist Erdal Yiğit, with George Mason University, has published a Perspective piece in the journal Science suggesting that upper atmospheric interactions with solar wind cannot fully explain the loss of surface water on Mars. In his paper, he suggests three other major factors need to be taken into consideration a