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#276 2021-04-13 20:55:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

It would seem that once we land on mars power is of the highest of priorities to have in sufficient supply as the dusts of mars can wipe the colony out before we get started.
Its easier to plan for one crewman but as we multiply the choices of risk get harder to swallow as rationing of commodities could be needed to stave off deaths.
Water is high for the ability to grow food and to get home but these are going to need that power to make them possible.
With the final achillea's being Oxygen to replenish the crews ability to achieve all activities from cleaning solar panels, to digging dry ice to digging for water laden soils....
Then building and planting that needs to be done to expand living area space....

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#277 2021-04-14 05:42:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #276

Thanks for the reminder to go back to the PlotMaster to make sure it contains specializations per your list ...

Todo: Compare items in Post #276 to PlotMaster and add/revise as needed.

If we had someone (in addition to SpaceNut and myself) to grow My Hacienda, the work would proceed more rapidly.

If there is a non-member who reads this and would like to help, please read Post #2 of Recruiting, and contact NewMarsMember * gmail.com

I'm looking for individuals to fill all 7,800 positions laid out for "Sagan City 2018" 

It will take a while to get there, but there is plenty of time.  Mars will be there when all the preparations are made.

(th)

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#278 2021-06-22 19:00:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

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#279 2021-07-25 05:58:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut (and anyone else who may be interested...)

I added Insurance to the PlotMaster ...

(th)

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#280 2021-07-25 08:31:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Just for how many types will be needed on mars for insurance we can look to earth and then as we need them for mars we will find that ones that are gambling on fate will want a bigger part of the pie as its going to cost you to have it.

This is like banking in that they will want your money but are not going to give much interest for having it to make use of.

Then there is the total stock market generated gambling on another business up or downs for the control via shares for the business ownership....

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#281 2021-07-25 11:25:38

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #280

Thanks for additional suggestions ... while I like the idea of planning for the investment community to participate in Sagan City 2018, I'm at a loss to think of how to proceed to define the specializations that are needed.

If Louis happens to be following this topic (which I admit is unlikely) I'd welcome some guidance.

There should be at least one stock exchange, but would it be a private or a public enterprise.  I'm vague on that point, because I've not paid attention when shown information about the subject in the past.

(th)

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#282 2021-07-25 14:48:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Stock market is sort of like getting a loan from a bank only the pledge is for pieces of paper that entitle you to a portion of the business and buy enough of the stock makes you now an owner of that business. its a way to gain capital to invest in a business build up but there is no guarantee that one can repay the loan if the changes that are made from the gained moneys change the profitability of that business...

its still just gambling in another form.

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#283 2021-07-25 16:59:05

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The reaction of SpaceNut in Post #282 caught me by surprise...

Stock companies were invented by human beings in the ~1700's as a way to share risk in costly ventures, such as sending wooden sailing vessels to remote countries to attempt to trade goods made locally for prized goods made remotely.  They retain that important function, many years later.  The underlying expectation is that more of these ventures will succeed than fail, so that the investors end up with a net return.

About 50,400,000 results (0.73 seconds)
The Dutch East India Company was the first corporation to be listed on an official stock exchange. In 1611, the world's first stock exchange (in its modern sense) was launched by the VOC in Amsterdam. In Robert Shiller's own words, the VOC was "the first real important stock" in the history of finance.

Stock market - Wikipedia

The principle has been extended world wide, and it is my understanding that all pension funds invest the contributions of their members in the stock market, as a way of achieving returns that exceed inflation.

However, the hesitation expressed by SpaceNut in the post had to have come from somewhere, so I asked Google for help ...

moneyqanda.com › is-the-stock-market-gamblingIs the Stock Market Gambling? Why Trading in Stocks Isn't ...
Investing in the stock market is a form of gambling. Simply put, if a return on your money is not guaranteed (as all brokerage houses tell you) it is a risk and therefore gambling. Again, simply put,

The article (and a number of others Google found) is about Day Trading, which (I gather) tends to create a serious form of addiction in many of its practitioners.

A wise investor invests for the long term.   A wise investor would study the decisions of someone like Warren Buffet, for example.

So, I can understand the doubt expressed in the post by SpaceNut, but I also note that almost ** all ** wealth accumulated by citizens of the United States in recent centuries have come from wise long term investments, and the Stock Market is a mechanism for smoothly facilitating trades between individuals and organizations.

(th)

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#284 2021-07-26 11:00:44

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

This post is about the resilience of the people of Iceland .... I decided it might find a home in My Hacienda, because the article linked below is about the population who can survive for centuries in a hostile environment and sustain good humor despite it all ...

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the- … ket-newtab


The Unexpected Philosophy Icelanders Live By

If Iceland were to have a national slogan, it would be ‘þetta reddast’, which roughly translates to the idea that everything will work out all right in the end.
BBC Travel

    Katie Hammel

“This is just my home-grown theory,” Sigmundsdóttir said, “but I think the Icelanders had to face so many hardships that they learned to meet adversity with a combination of laissez-faire and capitulation. It’s something that became ingrained in the Icelandic people through centuries of living with a climate and landscape that always had the upper hand, against which you had to surrender, again and again, because you couldn’t fight them. It’s difficult in Iceland not to feel your insignificance against the elements.”

In reading Katie's report on her visit to Iceland, I found myself comparing the rigors of life in Iceland to the challenges those who settle on Mars will face.

There will be fewer earthquakes, fierce storms and ice falls, but in their place will be challenges of similar life threatening urgency.

Here may be a people who are psychologically prepared for Mars, although I admit Mars would be intensely boring in comparison.

(th)

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#285 2021-07-26 13:58:01

Terraformer
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From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,404
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The Unexpected Philosophy Icelanders Live By

If Iceland were to have a national slogan, it would be ‘þetta reddast’, which roughly translates to the idea that everything will work out all right in the end.

Whereas in Britain, we have the national slogan "not too bad". No matter how bad (or good) things get, we will always remember, things could have been a lot worse.

Bill Bailey explains.


To secure a planet it is not necessary to colonise it in its entirety, only to secure the most valuable locations. The Lunar poles and Subterran point. Mercury's poles. The equatorial region of Ceres. Hold these, prevent access to their volatiles and anchor points for beanstalks, and independent colonies cease to be viable.

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#286 2021-07-26 14:01:02

Terraformer
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From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,404
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Also, ever since we tamed Albion we've been on the lookout for new lands with new challenges. Australia, for example. Canada. The Anglo-Celt is well suited to hostile environments, even if we complain about it.


To secure a planet it is not necessary to colonise it in its entirety, only to secure the most valuable locations. The Lunar poles and Subterran point. Mercury's poles. The equatorial region of Ceres. Hold these, prevent access to their volatiles and anchor points for beanstalks, and independent colonies cease to be viable.

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#287 2021-08-27 06:24:09

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut .... It's been a while since we updated My Hacienda ....

The recent discussion of molten sand as a thermal energy storage method may yield a useful addition to My Hacienda in the HVAC category.

A related specialization is mirrors for concentration, which I'm pretty sure are ** not ** present in today's My Hacienda collection.

Production of mirrors implies molten sand as a construction medium, so the facility can be used to make itself, once the initial investment yields a combination of mirrors able to create a mirror on it's own.

Production of a suitable reflective backing material on Mars may be a challenge.

(th)

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#288 2021-08-27 08:53:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

HVAC is about a working fluid media for hot or cold use. Enclosed habitats off earth all have air moving and conditioning equipment that makes use of this feature.

The use of the lower thermal is in heating and cooling and are energy consumer states.
As void indicated along with Caliban its that temperature that melts the media to fluid levels that is where energy in is used to delay (aka storage) for the creation of energy out later.

The range of temperatures and working fluids just need to be optimmized for each groups intended energy levels for are they creating or consuming.

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#289 2021-08-27 11:07:45

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #288

Thanks for picking up on the need to refresh My Hacienda.

So much time has gone by, many members may have forgotten what it was for, if they even knew about it.

If an interested person will search for plotmaster as subject and tahanson43206 as author, you will be looking at a list of plots which are assigned responsibility for provision of various goods and services.  the idea is to assemble all the specializations needed to sustain a first tier civilization on Mars, although close ties to Earth are assumed to be available through electronic transmissions and via periodic physical shipments.

To save time, here is the direct link: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875

The tentative goal of 7800 is arrived at from an extension of Louis' concept of Sagan City on Mars. The site of the 2018 version of Sagan City was selected by Louis based upon Mars lander sites, and other considerations that I do not recall, but which are most certainly available for lookup in the archives.

7800 is the number of 1 km square plots that would fit inside a circle with a 50 km radius.

There are already identified a minimum of three entities which would focus upon HVAC services.  On Earth, and in large cities, it is not unusual to have numerous commercial entities providing HVAC services for businesses, government agencies and private citizens.

My working assumption is that three such services is potentially capable of meeting the needs of the residences of Sagan City 2018.

The idea I'm pursuing here is that the idea of offering heating services by collecting solar energy as thermal energy is sufficiently different from traditional Earthly HVAC services that it deserves it's own identification.

The skill set and the materials involved are just too different from Earth practice to be blended into the existing entities.

Update at 14:44 local time:

Added Thermal Energy companies to Plotmaster

0490 Heating vendor #1 Home habitat Business Facility Government facility Thermal Energy
0491 Heating vendor #1 Home habitat Business Facility Government facility Thermal Energy
0492 Heating vendor #1 Home habitat Business Facility Government facility Thermal Energy


(th)

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#290 2021-08-27 16:58:53

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The registry contains some solar but the issue for what we are terming is the creation of energy from the sun...

https://www.electronicshub.org/solar-energy-facts

Types of Solar Energy:
* Solar Thermal Energy – In this system of energy generation solar thermal collectors are used to collect the heat energy and this collected energy can be utilized to heat water or warm up houses during winters.
* Solar Photovoltaic Power – Photovoltaic power is employed to transform the rays of sun into electricity by making use of solar panels. The energy produced is dependent on the amount of sun rays solar panel is receiving.
* Passive Solar Energy – Passive solar energy is basically the heating of buildings or home with the help of architectural design.

The Sun is not going anywhere nor is it going to run, it’s the only free & infinite energy source. So let’s open our minds & think about more & more ideas to use this infinite source effectively & optimize the use of other finite earth resources. So plan a new way to bring your own sun home.

The last is reflective concentrating....

https://greentumble.com/the-different-t … ar-energy/

* Parabolic-trough systems capture the sun’s energy through long rectangular, curved mirrors that are tilted toward the sun. In this way, they help focus sunlight on a pipe that contains oil. The oil is heated and used then used to boil water in a conventional steam generator to produce electricity.

* A dish/engine system uses a mirrored dish resembling in shape a very large satellite dish which collects and concentrates the sun’s heat onto a receiver. This receiver absorbs the heat and transfers it to the fluid within an engine. The heat causes the fluid to expand against a piston or turbine and produces mechanical power. This power is used to run a generator or alternator to produce electricity.
* A power tower system uses a large field of mirrors to concentrate sunlight onto the top of a tower, where a receiver containing molten salt sits. The salt’s heat is used to generate electricity through a conventional steam generator. Molten salt retains heat efficiently, so it can be stored for days before being converted into electricity. That means electricity can be produced on cloudy days or even several hours after sunset.

typical solar thermal hot water system
water.heater2.jpg

Add concentrators and you have a source thats hot enough for steam turbine power generation....

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#291 2021-08-27 17:29:45

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #290

Thanks for a helpful addition to the topic.

A distinct design possibility is to use a perfectly flat reflector if the array is large enough.

The reflectors themselves can be computer controlled to deliver every photon they receive to the target at the top of a tower, or the side of a hill if the terrain favors that kind of construction.  The service period would be only 1/4 of the Sol, but the complexity of the installation would be dramatically reduced.

It is even conceivable (as I think about the situation) that a basin (such as a meteor crater) might be enlisted for both morning and evening, if the mirrors can shift from looking East to looking West in a given Sol.  That would increase performance to near 1/2 Sol.

(th)

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#292 2021-09-09 07:44:08

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

My Hacienda is still waiting for the first individual willing to tackle specification of detailed requirements for a business on Mars, large enough to support a family and perhaps a bit more, and able to blend into a network of other business activities.

The intention is to identify the products and services, education and skills needed to sustain a first tier culture on Mars, with only 7800 plots.

(th)

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#293 2021-09-22 10:53:49

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wake-smell-c … 18983.html

Marcelo Teixeira
Wed, September 22, 2021 1:07 AM
By Marcelo Teixeira

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Farmer David Armstrong recently finished planting what is likely the most challenging crop his family has ever cultivated since his ancestors started farming in 1865 - 20,000 coffee trees.

Except Armstrong is not in the tropics of Central America - he is in Ventura, California, just 60 miles (97 km) away from downtown Los Angeles.

"I guess now I can say I am a coffee farmer!" he said, after planting the last seedlings of high-quality varieties of arabica coffee long cultivated in sweltering equatorial climates.

My Hacienda does not currently have coffee included in the crops to be planted on Mars.

To see the list of plots currently allocated, visit:

http://newmars.com/forums/search.php?se … 2113081490

(th)

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#294 2021-09-22 19:25:44

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Well I thought we had in crops and here is the reply

RobertDyck wrote:
SpaceNut wrote:

I think Tea's were spoken of but a bit of coffee would not hurt...

Post from me in this topic:

#237

Menu items
Here is a proposed list of menu items. This is by no means final.

Breakfast
...
coffee
...

#72

Summary, for 12 people: (my work, greenhouse area)

Coffee 298 m^2
...

#7

Coffee

People require coffee. English have grown accustomed to tea, but North Americans drink coffee. Engineers and scientists need their caffeine fix.

Coffee growing conditions
                        Arabica    Robusta
Altitude               600-2200m    0-800m
Rainfall              1200-2200mm 2200-3000mm
Temperature             15-24°C    18-36°C
Caffeine                 1.2%       2.2%
Chlorogenic acid (CGA) 5.5-8.0%   7.0-10.0%
Sugar (sucrose)          6-9%       3-7%
Lipids                  15-17%     10-11.5%

Arabica is self-pollinating plant, meaning the plant will have fewer mutations and fewer variations throughout its life cycle as compared to Robusta.
Arabica has double the number of chromosomes at 44 than Robusta at 22.

For Arabica, its altitude equates to pressure 13.7 psi (94.2 kPa) to 11.3 psi (78.2 kPa). Earth's atmosphere has 20.9% O2, so partial pressure works out to 2.3617 psi (16.34 kPa). This is well within the recommended atmosphere for a Mars habitat.

Coffee is a bush, growing 3-3.5m tall (10-12 feet).

My conclusion is we can grow pure Arabica coffee in a greenhouse.

Size for a 12 person initial settlement. Statistics for Canada, each person consumed 6.5 kg of coffee per year. Each tree produces 3 pounds of ground coffee per year. So that requires 4.7766833 coffee trees per person. That's 57.25 coffee trees. One plantation reports 14,000 coffee trees in 18 acres. For 12 people that works out to 298 square metres. That's just for trees, not including any processing or storage. Good yield requires drip irrigation, and symmetrical tree planting. This is also for direct sun, not intercropping with nitrogen fixing trees. For Mars, we would probably require long narrow greenhouses, oriented long in the east-west direction, and mirrors outside the greenhouse along the long sides to double "insolation", meaning sunlight. Remember Mars gets 43% as much sunlight as Earth, clouds are extremely rare, but the glass has to be coated with the same spectrally selective coating as NASA spacecraft and space station windows. This blocks UV, but reduces visible light to 80%-85% depending on colour (frequency). So 85% of 43% really reduces light. Adding mirrors will double light we have to start with.

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#295 2021-11-13 20:50:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Some more businesses

louis wrote:

How might Mars look 20 years after the first landing?

Here's a speculative sector analysis of the nascent Mars economy by Year 20:

1. Aerospace   -  Rocket hoppers and orbital rockets are now being produced.  The base will have a dedicated Spaceport.  A range of rocket fuels, such as LOX and methane will be produced.

2. Agriculture -  A full range of food crops will be produced:  salad vegetables, grains, fruit, beans, pulses etc. No animal farming will yet be undertaken (meat is imported).

3. Chemical industry  – The community’s ability to process and manipulate a wide range of materials will be in place. The settlement can produce Mars ISRU feedstock for plastics. Very pure silicon can be produced for electronics, computers and PV panels.

4. Computers -  The settlement is now able to produce basic computers which it is applying to life support systems.

5. Construction -  Using ISRU bricks, basalt, cement, concrete, glass, 3D printing techniques, Mars dust-sourced “rubber”  and steel frames,  the Mars settlement is able to construct its own habs for accommodation, farming and industry.

6. Domestic goods -  The settlement is able to produce refrigerators, freezers, ovens, cookers, hobs, plumbing parts, kitchen utensils, cooking ware, basic furniture,  hygiene products (such as soap and toothpaste).

7. Education and research  -  An Earth-based University has established a Research Centre on Mars which is part of the base and forms an important part of the economy.

8. Electrical -  The settlement is producing a range of chemical batteries, some of which are being used to power the Base Zone rovers and to even out power over a sol.  The settlement is now able to produce cable – plastic covered copper wiring.  Most copper wiring is being produced from recycled materials but some is being sourced from meteorites on the surface of Mars. 

9. Energy  -  Mars now has a well developed energy sector based on PV power systems, solar reflectors,, chemical batteries, differential heat engines and methane/hydrogen production  Virtually all elements of the energy system can now be produced with ISRU on Mars, although PV film is still being imported from Earth.

10. Food processing – Food processing is becoming a more important activity.  Some chilled meals and prepared salads are being produced. Nearly all food processing is automated. Food is refrigerated, turned into powder form, and frozen.

11. Life Support -  Life support (water, air and temperature control) is a key industry that generates income e.g. through sale to Universities, TV companies  and space agencies.

12. Metal industry  -  This is an important sector, producing steel supports for construction, steel tools for farming, steel bars and suspension springs for rovers.  Steel is used to produce gas cylinders and gas tanks. Aluminium is used in construction of airlocks and pressure cabins.

13. Pharmaceuticals -  This industry is at quite a primitive level. The community is only just beginning to produce basic medicines and other health products  such as paracetamol, some vitamins and minerals.

14. Textiles -  Basic clothing – cotton T shirts and trousers - are being produced.  Plans are in place for production of Mars ISRU space suits.

15. Transport  -  Mars is now able to produce its own rovers rather than having to import them.   Small pressurised Rovers are used to transfer from one hab to another with ease (it taking only five minutes to exit through air lock chambers.  The vehicles are kept small in order that airlocks can be on a small scale as well. Longer range rovers use methane and oxygen as their power systems.

16. Water -  Water is mined at large glaciers or ice deposits and transported in robot rovers to the Base where it is stored in shaded and regolith covered storage pits. Water recycling is a feature of nearly all processes.

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#296 2021-11-25 08:30:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I notice while we have mining we do not have tunnels for underground transport and for other connective purposes in the registry. Its sort of clear that its going to be a long time until we have a terraformed mars that will allow for long term living on its surface.

Likewise we will need glass and ceramics manufacturing for mirrors and other such things that can be used for a variety of things. I am sure in time we will want pottery talents and equipment to fire clay's into useful things as well as decorative.

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#297 Yesterday 08:04:32

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,110

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut and daGeck0 ...

There is a small possibility daGeck0 may be interested in developing a business concept within the framework of My Hacienda.

I have invited him to look at the available specializations we have listed in the Plotmaster.

We have opportunities for literally thousands of additional specializations, and I am looking for suggestions for more.

When making a recommendation, please be ** sure ** to search the existing Plotmaster to avoid duplication.

Every time I update the plotmaster, I have to pull it into an offline storage location so I can search it for duplicates.

If you save me the time of having to check, it will allow us (as a group) to build up the Plotmaster to it's full complement.

The intention is to create a virtual community of specializations able to support a first tier civilization on Mars or anywhere in the Solar System away from Earth.

(th)

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