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louis

Member

From: UK

Registered: 2008-03-24

Posts: 7,208

How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

How might Mars look 20 years after the first landing?

Here's a speculative sector analysis of the nascent Mars economy by Year 20:

1. Aerospace   -  Rocket hoppers and orbital rockets are now being produced.  The base will have a dedicated Spaceport.  A range of rocket fuels, such as LOX and methane will be produced.

2. Agriculture -  A full range of food crops will be produced:  salad vegetables, grains, fruit, beans, pulses etc. No animal farming will yet be undertaken (meat is imported).

3. Chemical industry  – The community’s ability to process and manipulate a wide range of materials will be in place. The settlement can produce Mars ISRU feedstock for plastics. Very pure silicon can be produced for electronics, computers and PV panels.

4. Computers -  The settlement is now able to produce basic computers which it is applying to life support systems.

5. Construction -  Using ISRU bricks, basalt, cement, concrete, glass, 3D printing techniques, Mars dust-sourced “rubber”  and steel frames,  the Mars settlement is able to construct its own habs for accommodation, farming and industry.

6. Domestic goods -  The settlement is able to produce refrigerators, freezers, ovens, cookers, hobs, plumbing parts, kitchen utensils, cooking ware, basic furniture,  hygiene products (such as soap and toothpaste).

7. Education and research  -  An Earth-based University has established a Research Centre on Mars which is part of the base and forms an important part of the economy.

8. Electrical -  The settlement is producing a range of chemical batteries, some of which are being used to power the Base Zone rovers and to even out power over a sol.  The settlement is now able to produce cable – plastic covered copper wiring.  Most copper wiring is being produced from recycled materials but some is being sourced from meteorites on the surface of Mars. 

9. Energy  -  Mars now has a well developed energy sector based on PV power systems, solar reflectors,, chemical batteries, differential heat engines and methane/hydrogen production  Virtually all elements of the energy system can now be produced with ISRU on Mars, although PV film is still being imported from Earth.

10. Food processing – Food processing is becoming a more important activity.  Some chilled meals and prepared salads are being produced. Nearly all food processing is automated. Food is refrigerated, turned into powder form, and frozen.

11. Life Support -  Life support (water, air and temperature control) is a key industry that generates income e.g. through sale to Universities, TV companies  and space agencies.

12. Metal industry  -  This is an important sector, producing steel supports for construction, steel tools for farming, steel bars and suspension springs for rovers.  Steel is used to produce gas cylinders and gas tanks. Aluminium is used in construction of airlocks and pressure cabins.

13. Pharmaceuticals -  This industry is at quite a primitive level. The community is only just beginning to produce basic medicines and other health products  such as paracetamol, some vitamins and minerals.

14. Textiles -  Basic clothing – cotton T shirts and trousers - are being produced.  Plans are in place for production of Mars ISRU space suits.

15. Transport  -  Mars is now able to produce its own rovers rather than having to import them.   Small pressurised Rovers are used to transfer from one hab to another with ease (it taking only five minutes to exit through air lock chambers.  The vehicles are kept small in order that airlocks can be on a small scale as well. Longer range rovers use methane and oxygen as their power systems.

16. Water -  Water is mined at large glaciers or ice deposits and transported in robot rovers to the Base where it is stored in shaded and regolith covered storage pits. Water recycling is a feature of nearly all processes.

---

Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

Very interesting speculation

How might Mars look 20 years after the first landing?

Here's a speculative sector analysis of the nascent Mars economy by Year 20

16 points to adress is a long enough list to discuss but
We have talked on this before at Newmars but not a 20 yr prediction, sometimes the discussion did go a little off-topic

An Earth-based University has established a Research Centre on Mars which is part of the base and forms an important part of the economy.

Here is a discussion I will quote from another thread
a Terraforming project, a Research Center to change the climate and landscape of Mars?

Well, I will start with Spacenut's topic:
"Earth's Oceans Explored -but why not colonized".

I guess I will ask the question in turn:
"Mars Oceans may have existed, why not recreate them to habitate?"

I don't have a prediction for Water resources or Aerospace or Textiles or Education or Domestic Goods...I think that is too hard to predict at the moment and the US has no real political commitment to Mars.

Some people were sure NASA would get there first, they were certain NASA would always dominate once they beat the Russians to the Moon, others did not prediction a rise of China's program, some believe a corporation like Space-X will dominate Mars will others think there would be an interntaional effort, with different groups maybe claiming their own part of MArs or working together?

The Lunar Gatewat has since become a part of the Mars vision although some still call for a Mars-Direct move.

Settlement diesign is also an interesting discussion 15 pages
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9849&p=14

There have been discussion of Nuclear Mobiles or vehicles that look like old retro 1950s concepts of Ford Nucleons

Air. Shelter. Water. Food.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7687
this thread is a long read its 20 + pages but worthwhile

Domes
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=253
Here is an old topic on Domed Habitats, it might be outdated since it was published during the Bush years and the vision for the Moon and Mars just before the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, the private sectors wasnt really a thing and this discussion happened and as the Chinese were about to launches their new ambitions for space.

Some discussion and posts are stil relevant,
here are some quotes from other threads
...

Some even argued the military should run affairs on Mars?

What if Mars develops its own Culture, not English not Chinese, but their own mix of langauges it might even be a mix of French and Polish or whatever?
Would the US Constitution or Corporate culture or Socialism or Religion be exported to Mars?

Or would the nation that lands on Mars make sure their culture survives?

IMHO, it's rather tough to control what language people speak. Usefulness usually precedes standard. I know it from near because I'm french, my wife is polish, & we speak together in english. that is, each year God makes, the "english" is more & more polluted by Polish or french words, or even sentence structures. My own daughter is perfectly biligual, yet clueless in english(age 6).
Therefore I've read quite a few books on the topic, and my uneducated guess is that there will be a local pidgin for Martians, a kind of mix between origin languages, plus new words specific to local conditions. Later it should evolve in a creole, and, finally, after a few centuries, in a full language, as wicked as current ones. I don't believe in a standardized, simple language like esperanto, for the very reason that useful languages evolve as quick as their environment. Whatever the original language.

we even had some 'politically incorrect' discussion on what makes 'The Right Stuff'?

How is it that the Eskimos managed to survive in the Arctic long before snowmobiles or Home Depot ever existed?

Were they specially selected for their IQ?

Why do you think you would be an "active danger" to anyone?

What makes you think you couldn't be trained to overcome any lack of knowledge?

What is more unique about living on Mars than, say, living in a submarine?

We train everyone we put on submarines.  They do tend to be reasonably intelligent, but not substantially more intelligent than any random person selected from society.  They do have other personality attributes that are selected for, such as refusing to give up, even when the outcome is certain.  This is because submariners are a cross-section of society.

Can we put someone on a submarine who is severely mentally retarded?  Probably not, at least not with good results.  If we have to transport someone by submarine who is mentally retarded, then we'll have someone stay with them at all times, but we're not going to eject them out of a torpedo tube because they don't fully understand the machine they're living in.

I see no problem with a Mars expedition crew operating drones or rovers from Mars orbit.  But,  that does presume you (at least initially) base from orbit,  not direct landing from transit.  That does require the old 1950's notion of an orbit-to-orbit transport,  equipped with multiple landers. 

My mission concepts update that ancient concept.  It does have considerable merit,  even today.

I've had a dim view of the Chinese space program since it was started.

I mean you might/should be able to get 100 kWe out of a 1 tonne nuclear battery. I don't know what the Russians have actually gotten though.

Most space reactors don't involve launching them with substantially radioactive cores though. The idea is usually to turn them on once they're safely in space.

Another approach involves three main factors. Tightening the flow of immigrants from the region, actively working to assimilate them into our culture (no more welfare applications in Arabic) and working to mold that culture in its homelands, a process involving many angles on its own, only rarely resorting to military force.

Islam is not a race or ethnicity, Josh. Islam is a religion, meaning it makes claims about the nature of reality and how human beings should act. As such, insulting Islam is on par with insulting, oh, Communism, another poisonous ideology that the world will be much better off without.

I don't really see how transporting the nitrogen from Venus to Mars in gasbags is feasible. Gasbags are too fragile; a single micrometeorite (and there are MANY between Venus and Mars) would puncture the gasbag, and suddenly the whole shebang would empty like a runaway balloon. No gasbag would make it to Mars.

Another possibility is freezing the nitrogen in Venus orbit into solid chunks -- 100% nitrogen asteroids -- and then push them onto a trajectory for Mars. Put a homing beacon on them to track them for extra logistic control.

If necessary, they can be broken into smaller chunks with weaponry when they're on final approach towards Mars. Then just plunge to the planet, aerobrake -- ideally, chunks sized so that they never hit the surface, but are vaporized into the atmosphere by the friction of aerobraking.

The thin winds of Mars do not carry much energy, the Sun is half again as far away from Mars as it is from Earth. One could also argue that the Sun might be a good source of energy as far out as Jupiter if you had enough solar collectors. If you could make the atmosphere of Mars much thicker, you would need a lot of energy to do that. Even if the atmosphere were as thick as Earth's the weaker rays from the Sun won't drive the Martian winds as hard as they do on Earth. We probably will have harnessed other sources of energy by the tie we terraformed Mars. By that time, any chunk of ice or hydrocarbons that contained hydrogen, would be a source of energy.

What is the best source of Nitrogen for Mars? Is it Titan?

Even encounters with millimeter scale particles are extreamly infrequent in space.  Especialy interplanetary space.  There is simply an extreamly large amount of space and a small amount of matter to fill it.  You're just not likely to encounter any signifigant particles of any size.  "Cosmic dust" is non existant, unless you are referring to the stray particles the sun spews out.  This "dust" is realy just a sprinkling of stray nuclei, and hardly worth worring about.

I've noticed that in China, people die in mining accidents, and endure unsafe conditions in factories all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese try something as risky as Mars direct.

Space x is a corporate and that is not a Nasa.

Nasa can purchase the ride up and down from space x but they do not own the rocket as that is still the corporate property.

Space x can not tell Nasa or its people that use the rocket what they are going to do during the duration that its in use as they are the employee's of Nasa.

Now a corporate owned mission sets all the rules of those that ride and work for the corporation.

Long-distance electric power transmission is in some ways easier on Mars.  With high voltage DC, we could in fact build a truly global grid.  Martian nighttime temperatures can reach -90°C even at the equator and regolith under near vacuum conditions is an excellent insulator.  High temperature super conductors are a more promising option for long distance power transmission on Mars compared to Earth.  Ultimately, it may turn out that a heavily populated Mars will choose to exploit the economies of scale offered by a global grid and construct multi-GW fusion powerplants Close to the poles, using ice as a heat sink.  Likewise, eventually a global pipeline system may allow air and water to be transported globally, such that individual colonies are not so critically dependant on the functionality of their own life support systems.  Time will tell.

Where is a young child safer - on a small fishing vessel, or on a cruise ship?

If something goes wrong in a single family homestead, the adults are going to have their hands full fixing the problem. Meanwhile little Jimmy is wandering off to play with the airlock, because no-one can keep an eye on him.

If something goes wrong in a Martian village, the people who's designate job it is to fix the problem will be fixing the problem. If things go really wrong, the village can spare a few adults to watch the children in the emergency shelters whilst the others go and patch up the hole in the habitat, or whatever the issue is. If Jimmy wanders off, he's going to be spotted by someone else long before he can do any damage. A village of say 500 can also afford a doctor - not just seeing one via satellite, but an actual in person doctor.

My point being, the Martian environment is not friendly to tiny groups that want to spread out and build homesteads and hamlets. The near vacuum means that people will be living close together, in rowhomes and apartments to maximise the use of the costly pressurised space. The difficulty travelling means that you want to be near other people, because you can't easily drive over to see them when you need to. The harsh environment means that you need a broad set of skills to stay alive, skills which even if you have in a tiny group will see survival sometimes be a full time job that takes away from important things like stopping little children from accidentally killing themselves.

All this to say, Martian colonisation is going to be a lot more like Classical Greece than the American West, with cities establishing new cities rather than settlers spreading out and finding somewhere to stop and farm. It will select for being able to live together in a dense settlement, not sprawling across the landscape. Because it's harsh, and lethal, and you can't afford to only rely on yourself.

I had the choice of Life support systems: The problems of producing food, air and water on Mars or of Science, Technology, and Astronomy:
It doesn't have to be about Mars!

And after a bit its now in life support....

ECTFE and similar polymers require a supply of Fluorine containing rocks to be located, mined and processed. I assume there will not be much difficulty getting Chlorine from the regolith, even if there are no massive salt deposits to hand.
The availability of Fluorine came up in the discussion on terraforming using greenhouse gasses.

For what one vote out of 8 billion might be worth, I'm in favor of re-designing the ISS for perpetual renewal.

The MIR and Tiangong model (and Skylab, come to think of it) are enough examples of experimental structures to satisfy most people.

It's time to start planning for perpetual life of space assets, and that means replace modules.  The vehicle combination (station) must be designed from the beginning to be refurbished.

If the Russian module is approaching end-of-life, that does not mean the station is.  It is possible it is the Nation that is becoming tired of holding up it's end of the bargain after so many changes over the decades.

If diplomacy has any value in this situation, I'd recommend attempting to persuade the Russians to renew their commitment to the joint endeavor.

The US long ago drove China away due to concerns about communism.  The obvious result is that the Chinese long ago abandoned any prospect of being partners in the space exploration enterprise.

The best I think we can hope for is to ** try ** for compatible docking equipment.

(th)

There are parts which could be used for the lunar gateway sooner rather than later but will they since when Nasa is done with anything is to let it burn up on the way down.....

We have talked about RV'ing around mars, using nuke power vehicles, using inflateable habitats and even the tuna can landers but we only seem to have focused on getting from a base to another by these other methods and not really moving the base with you
Of course that base will be a minimal but functional for survival type.

Tea would need to be grown in pressurised, heated greenhouses on Mars.  It isn't just a case of overcoming transport costs.  Even if transport costs from Earth to Mars, were zero and vice versa, the difficulties imposed by the Martian environment would make it more expensive to carry out any activity there compared to any location on Earth.

One advantage Mars does have that is tangible: A much shallower gravity well.  The propulsive effort required to reach Earth orbit from Mars surface, is lower than it is from Earth surface.  And a large fraction of the propulsion can be low-thrust.  Mars has a definite gravitational competitive advantage in producing finished goods and commodities that are intended for use in any location outside of Earth's atmosphere.  Ultimately, even Mars grown food may be cheaper in Earth orbit, than Earth food that must be lifted through a 10+km/s delta-V at high thrust.  That is the singular advantage that a Mars colony can exploit in terms of producing exports for profit.  And aside from novelty value, it is the only advantage that a Mars colony has over an analogous colony built in Earth's polar regions.  If you are looking for export opportunities, this is predominantly where they are to be found.

There may be a few other niches, where direct export to Earth surface may be competitive.  Deuterium, for example.  Mars also contains meteorite materials in a geologically unaltered state.  These contain platinum group metals in higher abundance than terrestrial ores.  But by and large, there are few export opportunities to Earth surface.  I'm not convinced that Mars will become a prime filming location.  CGI can replicate the surface quite convincingly.

With china going it alone for its own space station even if its only a few modules its still would make those that have had to partner seem less capable...

Here's another report, as a follow up to Mars_B4_Moon Post

The new superconducting magnet is reported to achieve 20 Tesla.

Trying to merge this magnet type with a plasma chamber remains ahead.

Ballistic delivery as envisaged here works,  if you aerobrake to about local Mach 2.5 to 3.  If the ballistic coefficient is high,  you will be under 5 km altitude and seconds from impact at this point. 

You will smack the surface of Mars at about 0.6 to 0.7 km/s,  which is more than fast enough to convert KE into a really hot,  shock-wave-driven fireball.  Your payload will be fragmented into shrapnel,  and part of it will be vaporized. Unless you add a solid braking rocket to reduce velocity down around 100-200 mph.

If your ballistic coefficient is low,  you come out of aerobraking higher up,  hopefully above 10 km.  A supersonic chute could hold you at or near Mach 1 at impact,  maybe a minute later.  That would be something near 250 m/s,  or in the vicinity of 500 or 600 mph. You don't get the shock fireball.  You still get a bunch of fragmentation,  but not any noticeable vaporization.

Solid raw materials like steel ingots could be delivered that way,  but not finished steel shapes (which would be destroyed upon impact).

and discussion of trade with the Moon or a Venus station or outer realms like the Asteroids, Europa and Titan.

There are also possible new break through in particle physics or A.I computing software learning or a possible fusion age that might lie ahead of us.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-11-19 11:00:31)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,017

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

The white paper indicates a need for a first landing of cargo is a trial 2024 to say we have a proof of landing concept if successful on the landing to give a boot strap of 2 rockets with a max payload to the surface upward of 300mT. That paper also concludes that a pre-prepared landing site is needed is required for sustainability.

There is no indication that the ship count per each mission launch window will increase in this white paper. Its first human mission starts with a crew of 10 - 20 but is not indicated when that should happen or how large each successive crew sizing will increase. That leaves 7 missions remaining after the first few to do the build up.

That leaves a priority of the above list for buildup with the most critical being required.

I believe these are the top priorities...

2. Agriculture -  A full range of food crops will be produced:  salad vegetables, grains, fruit, beans, pulses etc. No animal farming will yet be undertaken (meat is imported).

5. Construction -  Using ISRU bricks, basalt, cement, concrete, glass, 3D printing techniques, Mars dust-sourced “rubber”  and steel frames,  the Mars settlement is able to construct its own habs for accommodation, farming and industry.

9. Energy  -  Mars now has a well developed energy sector based on PV power systems, solar reflectors,, chemical batteries, differential heat engines and methane/hydrogen production  Virtually all elements of the energy system can now be produced with ISRU on Mars, although PV film is still being imported from Earth.

8. Electrical -  The settlement is producing a range of chemical batteries, some of which are being used to power the Base Zone rovers and to even out power over a sol.  The settlement is now able to produce cable – plastic covered copper wiring.  Most copper wiring is being produced from recycled materials but some is being sourced from meteorites on the surface of Mars.

10. Food processing – Food processing is becoming a more important activity.  Some chilled meals and prepared salads are being produced. Nearly all food processing is automated. Food is refrigerated, turned into powder form, and frozen.

11. Life Support -  Life support (water, air and temperature control) is a key industry that generates income e.g. through sale to Universities, TV companies  and space agencies.

15. Transport  -  Mars is now able to produce its own rovers rather than having to import them.   Small pressurised Rovers are used to transfer from one hab to another with ease (it taking only five minutes to exit through air lock chambers.  The vehicles are kept small in order that airlocks can be on a small scale as well. Longer range rovers use methane and oxygen as their power systems.

16. Water -  Water is mined at large glaciers or ice deposits and transported in robot rovers to the Base where it is stored in shaded and regolith covered storage pits. Water recycling is a feature of nearly all processes.

Of course the remaining are the next tier of growth in that second 20 year as you continue to build up non returning crews.

1. Aerospace   -  Rocket hoppers and orbital rockets are now being produced.  The base will have a dedicated Spaceport.  A range of rocket fuels, such as LOX and methane will be produced.

3. Chemical industry  – The community’s ability to process and manipulate a wide range of materials will be in place. The settlement can produce Mars ISRU feedstock for plastics. Very pure silicon can be produced for electronics, computers and PV panels.

4. Computers -  The settlement is now able to produce basic computers which it is applying to life support systems.

6. Domestic goods -  The settlement is able to produce refrigerators, freezers, ovens, cookers, hobs, plumbing parts, kitchen utensils, cooking ware, basic furniture,  hygiene products (such as soap and toothpaste).

7. Education and research  -  An Earth-based University has established a Research Centre on Mars which is part of the base and forms an important part of the economy.

8. Electrical -  The settlement is producing a range of chemical batteries, some of which are being used to power the Base Zone rovers and to even out power over a sol.  The settlement is now able to produce cable – plastic covered copper wiring.  Most copper wiring is being produced from recycled materials but some is being sourced from meteorites on the surface of Mars.

9. Energy  -  Mars now has a well developed energy sector based on PV power systems, solar reflectors,, chemical batteries, differential heat engines and methane/hydrogen production  Virtually all elements of the energy system can now be produced with ISRU on Mars, although PV film is still being imported from Earth.

12. Metal industry  -  This is an important sector, producing steel supports for construction, steel tools for farming, steel bars and suspension springs for rovers.  Steel is used to produce gas cylinders and gas tanks. Aluminium is used in construction of airlocks and pressure cabins.

13. Pharmaceuticals -  This industry is at quite a primitive level. The community is only just beginning to produce basic medicines and other health products  such as paracetamol, some vitamins and minerals.

14. Textiles -  Basic clothing – cotton T shirts and trousers - are being produced.  Plans are in place for production of Mars ISRU space suits.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 17,461

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

For Mars_B4_Moon re #2

You have outdone your previous record for bringing archived forum discussion into a single coherent post!

SearchTerm:Awesome performance by Mars_B4_Moon November 2021

It was ** really ** fun (for me for sure) to see all those names brought together in a single post!

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

Hacking On Mars In “The Martian”
https://hackaday.com/2017/06/30/hacking … e-martian/

NASA awards contracts for commercial spacesuits for ISS, Moon
https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/orga … -iss-moon/

NASA outsources $3.5 billion contracts for next-generation spacesuits
https://www.nashobavalleyvoice.com/2022 … pacesuits/

Perhaps you will need a Chinese dictionary to find your way around the colonized streets??

Will China have a cultural influence on Mars?

Tech Digest daily roundup: China brings forward plans for solar plant in space
https://www.techdigest.tv/2022/06/tech- … space.html

China's plans to go to the Moon, Mars and beyond
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-61511546.amp

Tiangong will have its own power, propulsion, life support systems and living quarters.

China is only the third country in history to have put both astronauts into space and to build a space station, after the Soviet Union (and now Russia) and the US.

Chinese astronauts are excluded from the ISS because US law bans its space agency, Nasa, from sharing its data with China.
China's plans to reach the Moon and Mars

China's ambitions do not end there.

A few years from now it wants to take samples from asteroids near the Earth.

By 2030, it aims to have put its first astronauts on the Moon, and to have sent probes to collect samples from Mars and Jupiter.

Three Astronauts Just Arrived on China's Space Station to Spend 6 Months Completing It
https://www.sciencealert.com/chinese-as … ce-station

Chinese carmaker Geely joins SpaceX in low-Earth orbit satellite race
https://www.straitstimes.com/business/c … llite-race

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-10 07:08:52)

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

A place of study and science like the South Pole or will other cultures and crew arrive with their customs

Antarctic Dry Valleys haven't always been dry, study suggests

https://phys.org/news/2023-05-antarctic … avent.html

Chinese official 'Handover ceremony'

https://twitter.com/CNSAWatcher/status/ … 0509887489

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

What culture will arrive first?

Space Race: are China and the US locked in a battle for space dominance?
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/spac … -dominance

China's first civilian taikonaut ignites young generation's dreams of space and beyond
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202306/1292611.shtml

China attracts moon base partners, outlines project timelines
https://spacenews.com/china-attracts-mo … timelines/

What NASA is planning for Mars exploration
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli … xploration

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

I don't know if we will go to Mars soon and now with so much focus on the Moon but if we do go to Mars and build towns and there is an international world culture element and technology of the future maybe Mars might be a unique place. Mars could be the planet of synthetic and AI and robots, the machines may work farms, it could be a place of robot translators, AI diggers and Artificial Intelligence Cars, a mix of Cyborg and Chatbots with humans part of the population.

ClouBot introduces AI tutor for foreign language learning
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2 … 74141.html

Power and Food will be unique, if Solar can provide power then it can be used however we have seen many Rovers fail due to Martian Dust, the NASA DARPA will test new designs for Nuclear Engine and maybe a Nuke Reactor on the Moon, China has also been expanding with Nuclear Power in Space Colony ideas.

Greenhouse cultivation for more sustainable food systems (paywall)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-024-00987-y

an old article 2017

'A year-round greenhouse could grow food in polar stations and in space.'

https://futurism.com/antarctica-is-gett … ake-a-look

Elon Musk reveals plan to 'extend consciousness to Mars' as he prepares to launch rocket
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new … d-32806434

more Aerospace this time Titan

Nasa hunting for alien life with three groundbreaking missions – and one will send Dragonfly robot to Saturn’s moon
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/27877038/ … ver-titan/

the languages and cultures?

will Spanish arrive on Mars?

How Many People Speak Spanish, And Where Is It Spoken?
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/how- … -it-spoken

How Many People Speak Spanish In The World?

There are more than 485 million native speakers of Spanish, making it second only to Chinese in terms of the most spoken languages in the world. English is just behind Spanish, with approximately 373 million native speakers. Spanish is the third most studied language in the world, after English and French. In addition to the 485 million native speakers, around 74 million people around the world speak Spanish as a second language.

I don't know if religious language will spread to space, some Churches of Christianity do expand if the Catholic church pushes for preachers or a church on Mars its possible the art or some Latin Esperanto language might follow but I don't think they expand as much as they did in the past. The Indians are out in space but just how much of the religion might expand is debatable. Arabic Mohammedanism is still expansionist, Arab monarchy expanding to space buying other nations rocket ride and ISIS involved in a Yazidi genocide that was carried out by the Islamic State thousands of Yazidi women and girls forced into sexual slavery, as well as the flight of more than 500,000 Yazidi refugees

Post WW2 the religion, culture and nationalism revival element for a people living in a new 'State' the language of Yiddish declines for a time and Hebrew is brought back.

Why Yiddish is having its moment
https://www.dw.com/en/yiddish-celebrati … a-53487024
Yiddish enthusiasts around the world are kvelling and plotzing at the revival of their favorite language in recent popular culture. But what makes Yiddish so unique and exciting?

How Yiddish survives in Europe - through German
https://www.thelocal.de/20180926/how-yiddish-is-german

Hebrew wasn’t spoken for 2,000 years. Here’s how it was revived.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/hist … as-revived

Aramaic a Semitic language that was originally spoken by the ancient Middle Eastern people,  Aramaic languages are now considered endangered

Neo-Aramaic languages still spoken by the Assyrians, Mandeans, Mizrahi Jewsand by the Aramean Syriacs in in Syria.

'Syriac Study'
https://web.archive.org/web/20130518214 … uction.pdf

its difficult to predict what the culture of Mars would be, would it be like the ISS or Segregation of Nations at Antarctica or other research sites and Polar Stations, or if people mix can it have a Multi-cultural element like Luxembourg, Singapore, New York City, San Francisco, Switzerland, multi cultural place can have culture clashes and issues, some people point to Iceland or Japan or Norway as more stable homogeneous society but can also remain happy as people are busy, fed, kept healthy without war and have a payment and reasonable quality of life. In regard to science at extreme locations there are somewhere between 17-20 nations who have made effort to build Permanent active science stations in Antarctica, each station has brought cultural things with them that are unique to the home culture.

with mixes of people, different humans from different Earth culture, Mars going it alone and not supported by a standard Earth education the planet Mars might develop its own language or dialect, Taiwan sentences got longer and more complex, Westernised Chinese includes many direct influences from the Japanese language, over use of the abstract in Taiwan from English or "a/an" words or greater politeness from Japanese making it stand out, Hinglish is also a thing and India having a satellite at Mars and a Rover on the Moon, English itself is said to be a mongrel an evolution and mix of Nordic, Latin, North Sea Germanic, Vulgar Latin, Norman, Celt, Germanic, French, Saxon words amalgamated into the new English Indo-European family, the language then having huge global influences of the former British Empire succeeded by the Commonwealth and the rise of the power of the United States and its unique English dialect.

and Eurasian Greek words

'Greek Loanwords in English'
https://linguisticsgirl.com/greek-loanwords-english/

but if not standardized Mars could evolve its own way, have its own slang or mix of words from other cultures 'chinglish engrish spanlish'

a language like English or Korean might spread easier because of having less tones than say Vietnamese or Chinese or a more simple alphabet and not pictorgram,  logographic elements, or ideographs like in Chinese or Japanese.

Some talked of exporting monarchy and some of the world's crazy religion to Mars, it could be a bad mix. Persian another difficult language for English speakers, also known as Farsi or Parsi, is a Western Iranian language belonging to the Iranian  Indo-Iranian family, Christians left Iran in waves decades past, for some a long time ago, there was Exodus of Iranian Jews the Persian Jews from Iran in the 1950s and the later migration wave from the country during and after the Iranian Revolution of 1979, it had a rich history a place where Atheists or Agnostics could exist, pre-islamic religious traditions in Iran traditions developed over time into Zoroastrianism, thwe jihadi and islamist go crazy rioting for Sharia Law, turmoil in Iran’s major cities brought down governments, he hung out with the French for a while and then more riots and blood as the Iranian Revolution gained momentum.The shah left the country, and an islamic nutjob Khomeini assumed control, the shah did not abdicate, a referendum resulted and the declaration of the islamist republic in Iran. The ousting of Pahlavi, the last Shah of Iran, formally marked the end of Iran's historical monarchy.

In retro pop culture, in our films we see that at one time it was thought the Soviet Union and Russia would always be in space, part of comic books and movies.

'Similarities & Differences Between the Slavic Languages'
https://blog.thelinguist.com/similariti … languages/

The Geography of the Slavic Languages

If we look at a map of the world we see this area north of the Black Sea, this vast area of steppe land where the Proto-Slavic people apparently originated from. Today, we have a variety of Slavic languages and they differ from each other because of the different historical influences that affected their development.

The most widely spoken Slavic languages are Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian in the east, Polish, Czech and Slovakian in the west and then the languages of the former Yugoslavia in the south: Serbo-Croatian, Slovenian, Macedonian, and also Bulgarian.

for a time our scifi writers thought the USA / NASA and the USSR would be forever expanding into space

maybe not Russians with their Ukraine invasion madness and sanctions but through the West, Europe, the USA perhaps an expansion of Slavic might happen in a Westernized Mars colony a group of Polish, Czech and Slovakian or Macedonia cultures.
Since the Russian invasion the Russian equipment and tanks look less high tech, many deaths and destoryed military equipment, thousands of soliders dying on both sides in a meat grinder 'War Without End', a bleak landscape looking like WW1, Chechnya mercenaries willing to kill both sides depending on who is paying the most, the flight of more thousands upon thousands of Ukraine refugees, in 2022 Poland alone welcomed more than two million refugees

in a more stable part of the world but with a crazy dictator Kim to their North

'Why is Korean considered a language isolate?'
https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/q … ge-isolate

Hindi one of many Indian dialects, an Indo-Aryan language spoken in India, Fiji, and a number of other countries.
https://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/hindi.php

Devanagari is an Indic script used in the northern Indian subcontinent, Sanskrit culture based so simply called Nagari

Spanish and Filipino Words That Are Surprisingly Similar
https://lajornadafilipina.com/lists/spa … -the-same/

English Words Used in Filipino: How Much Taglish Do You Know?
https://www.filipinopod101.com/blog/202 … -filipino/

Mars might have a number of settlements or colonies just as North and South America had in the European age of Discovery and Colonization, there will be no Natives to exploit, if a lone mono culture or mixed community were to fail it could be due to a number of factors.

There might also be other reasons for cultures to come into conflict such as extreme politics or religion madness.

a guy Brian Wiles who speaks many languages

What's the HARDEST LANGUAGE? (Arabic, Mandarin or Japanese?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6TS9G1XEj0

He ranks Arabic either behind Chinese and Japanese or Arabic ahead of Chinese and Japanese depending on the variety of Arabic

maybe a less educated pop culture opinion and maybe also a lot of knowledge and info both at the same time

'Top 20 Most Difficult Languages to Learn'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wAH8BNbXig

Mars might be a world of scientific experiments, Fusion a proposed form of electrical power generation that would generate electricity by using heat from nuclear fusion reactions.

building an artificial star in the Lab

2nd nuclear fusion breakthrough could "pave way for future of clean power"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_HY_QL2TYg

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Yesterday 09:42:10)

Oldfart1939

Member

Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,402

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

In response to Mars_B4_Moon:

Take a look at the science fiction novel by Tom Kratman entitled "A Desert Called Peace." This is a very well thought out and written book about another planet that was settled by Earth after finding a wormhole that made mass colonization to the world named "Terra Nova"possible.  All of Earth's religious fanatics and socially undesirable peoples were exported there, and the UN supervised the settlement by the major governments of Earth into a volatile powder keg of warring factions originating on Old Earth. It morphed into a 8 volume set of books that warrant reading by idealistic colonizers. It became a war world filled with hatred and much death.
The author is a retired US Army Colonel of Infantry and a jungle warfare expert who subsequently went to law school and is now a retired lawyer writing military science fiction.

Here's a link to his writings: https://www.fantasticfiction.com/k/tom-kratman/

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (Yesterday 12:08:33)

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

Thanks for the mention of author Tom Kratman I never read any of his stuff but I think maybe I seen a book cover of his somewhere but I never read any of his written work I will keep him in mind.

Its difficult to mix space with religion and do it successfully. The mix of religion and space is unique at times I don't know if many can do it well.

The Frank Herbert Dune books are famous for mixing scifi with religion without doubt real life Middle East inspired.  Robert A. Heinlein does it, Asimov's Foundation Novels and Empire. The topic of Revolution features in the Mars trilogy is a series of science fiction novels by Kim Stanley Robinson and The Martian Chronicles by American writer Ray Bradbury that has a bit of every topic,  in Asia there is the Three Body Problem book series Cixin Liu part of the Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy but they might be more philosophy than religion commentary or there is also Western view of Japan Neuromancer By William Gibson, dark books, adult themed, prostitutes drug use sexuality, virtual video game type worlds, super corporations, a religious sect, trans national gangster wars, international Mega companies at the time it seemed weird but it has become more relevant in our world of facebooks and tiktoks and youtubes. Neuromancer might have built or inspired the Dystopia Cyberpunk setting as much as Blade Runner did, the books have some rebellion and religion but mostly have their own 'style' which inspired a lot of the Cyberpunk genre. I might have a book from the Hyperion series around in an old box somewhere I hear its based on the Canterbury Tales Middle English story which I also have yet to read, Colony One Mars is another I have not read I think it might be a murder mystery thriller rather than a religion commentary. The Sparrow is another people of by author Mary Doria Russell, I also have not read Heinlen's Stranger in a Strange Land yet but it is often recommended.
A novel 'The Book of Strange New Things' by Michel Faber has a reasonably high rating, 3.6 - 3.7 stars out of 5.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/206 … new-things
There is probably going to be another franchise coming Warhammer 40k is probably going to be a tv show or comicbook animation or movie soon, I think they have books but its roots are these table top 'Risk' strategy, canon fodder and maybe Cowboys and Indians culture mixed with Goblins in a space fantasy setting or styled like a Civil War. the humor at times seems a bit video game-ish or juvenile or deliberately violent and shocking, it can be extremely grim its setting has that whole  Dungeons and Dragons style board games but it is set in Space and has this ridiculous Roman Empire Outer Space Crusader feel mixed giant alien monsters with 'Space Marines'. Elon Musk might be a fan of Warhammer with the strange memes he retweets, the scifi world is entertaining in its own way but it is horrific and not very uplifting. I don't have time to play vidoe games but sometimes rather than watch tv I will watch someone speed run a game in some livestream online video feed. I expect more video games to be made into books and movies, the world's can be incredibly detailed huge sound and very good visual graphics, Fallout a video game franchise recently made into a tv show has a lot of Church stuff in a Post Apocalypse setting, BioShock could be another video game soon made into a movie or tv show the series packed in political philosophy, video games can spend many hour giving their own take on science fiction and religions or Fundamentalism. I think most of the young adults and kids these days immerse themselves into video games worlds rather than playing chess or watching movies or reading books.

In movies and tv, I though the JMS series Babylon 5 handled religion quiet well, it still has a strong fan following but some sets and fx look a little dated, however sometimes the visual Fx and sound really do hold up I hear they used to use Hubble photos in the backgrounds.
'Babylon 5 - All Intros'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vIVFgXaxsU
Star Wars franchise has that whole swords and scifi and religion and rebels and Empire down to a fine visual art, selling the next toys to kids.
'Battlestar Galactica' the original show has connection to Mormonism and the migration to Utah, the show was remade or reimagined as more gritty by Ronald D. Moore and David Eick maybe less religious than its original
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a5bEIf0UaU
I tried 'For All Makind' also Ronald D. Moore involved but its a strange alt timeline, a revisionist alternative history, I gave up with the North Koreans beating the USA and Russia to Mars. North Korea although it has 'democratic' in the DPRK name and it is Communists, it can also be seen as a religious dynasty and cult of personality leader, it was well produced but I don't know if I will watch more of For All Mankind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuqAjKb54-0

Mutiny on the Bounty although not scifi could be more relevant than our scifi it is a novel based on the real mutiny against Lieutenant commanding officer of the Bounty but I'm not sure how much Religion played a role in the Rebellion.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Yesterday 16:45:54)

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,448

Re: How might the Mars colony look 20 years after the first landing?

Keeping things on topic

Will future people living in colonies on the moon or Mars speak in a ``Moon accent'' or ``Martian accent''?
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/202403 … w-accents/

Observations of Water Frost on Mars with THEMIS: Application to the Presence of Brines and the Stability of (Sub)Surface Water Ice
https://astrobiology.com/2024/05/observ … r-ice.html

The U.N. needs to form a parliament to regulate space mining
https://spacenews.com/the-un-needs-form … ce-mining/

Anna Wadhwa, Ph.D. candidate at MIT’s Department of Aeronautics & Astronautics to Present on Artificial Gravity & Space Exploration
https://www.marssociety.org/news/2024/0 … onvention/?