New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#26 2021-08-18 09:22:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of the final two sentences in section 13.2 on page 340...

Both homogeneous and heterogeneous catalytic processes have been studied for the hydrogenation of CO2.  The latter is, however, preferable in terms of cost, stability, separation handling and reuse of the catalyst as well as reactor design and is also the one currently practiced for the industrial production of methanol from syngas.

It would seem (to me at least) reasonable to suppose that the industry that is the subject of the theme of this topic will employ heterogeneous catalytic processes to achieve the objectives at hand.

***
In an adjacent topic, success in extracting hydrogen from source inputs, for use in a variety of applications, has been reported for nuclear powered energy sources.

The principle of Division of Labor immediately comes to (my) mind in this situation.

For utmost simplicity of concept, taking in sea water and delivering hydrogen to customers seems (to me at least) as a reasonable approach for a small business organized/funded to deliver economic value given a 1 MW reactor for a least of 10 years.

Hydrogen is a feed stock for so many downstream processes that an entrepreneur would do well to start out with a business plan to deliver whatever quantity of hydrogen a 1 MW reactor can supply.   This hypothetical entrepreneur is not necessarily going to worry about the details of the processes involved.  That role can (and surely will) be taken up by "job holders".  "Job Holders" are the members of an economic activity that allow an enterprise to succeed in the marketplace.

The entrepreneur will (instead) most likely tend to address issues on the macro scale, such as siting, financial arrangements, customer requirements and (above all) relationships with the major providers of reactors-for-lease.  Community relations is another important concern of our hypothetical entrepreneur. I offer that responsibility separately, because it encompasses interactions with local and regional governments, with "job holders" who may decide to become part of the activity, and with the families and friends of the job holders, as well as with the neighbors who may be looking on anxiously to be sure the enterprise does not destroy values important to the community.

Our hypothetical entrepreneur will earn every (local monetary unit) he or see brings in as profit.

(th)

Offline

#27 2021-08-19 11:48:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of the first sentence from Section 13.3 with three references

Efficient catalysts based on metals and their oxides, notably copper and zinc, have been developed for the conversion of CO2 to methanol.
[12,673,674]

Reference 12:

Per Google:

Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived productshttps://pubs.rsc.org › content › articlelanding
by A Goeppert · 2014 · Cited by 866 — Chemical recycling of CO2 to renewable fuels and materials, primarily methanol, offers a powerful alternative to tackle both issues, that is, ...

Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol and Derived Productshttps://www.researchgate.net › publication › 263205297_...
Request PDF | ChemInform Abstract: Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol and Derived Products - Closing the Loop | Starting with coal, ...

Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived productshttps://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › Recycling-of-c...
Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products - closing the loop. · A. Goeppert, M. Czaun, +2 authors G. Olah · Published 2014 · Chemistry, Medicine ...

Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol and Derived Products ...https://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › Recycling-of-C...
Semantic Scholar extracted view of "Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol and Derived Products — Closing the Loop" by A. Goeppert et al.

Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products ...https://www.scinapse.io › papers
Starting with coal, followed by petroleum oil and natural gas, the utilization of fossil fuels has allowed the | Alain Goeppert, Miklos Czaun, ...

Alain Goeppert | Author | Microsoft Academichttps://academic.microsoft.com › author › publication
Carbon-neutral fuel · Carbon sequestration. View More (17+). Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products – closing the loop.

G. K. Surya Prakash | Author | Microsoft Academichttps://academic.microsoft.com › author › publication
Carbon-neutral fuel · Carbon sequestration. View More (17+). Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products – closing the loop.

Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products ...https://www.growkudos.com › publications
Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products – closing the loop. Alain Goeppert, Miklos Czaun, John-Paul Jones, G. K. Surya Prakash, ...

Renewable CO2 recycling and synthetic fuel production in a ...https://www.pnas.org › content
by BD Patterson · 2019 · Cited by 35 — Methanol can serve as a feedstock for most petrochemical products, ... of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products–Closing the loop.

A General Techno-Economic Analysis of CO2 Electrolysis ...https://www.osti.gov › servlets › purlPDF
by M Jouny · 2018 · Cited by 416 — Goeppert, A.; Czaun, M.; Jones, J. P.; Surya Prakash, G. K.; Olah, G. A., Recycling of carbon dioxide to methanol and derived products - closing the loop.

Reference 673:

Per Google:

Producing methanol from CO[sub 2] (Journal Article) | OSTI.GOVhttps://www.osti.gov › biblio
by H Goehna · 1994 · Cited by 48 — Year after year, large quantities of carbon dioxide are emitted to the atmosphere from a variety of sources. Solutions are sought to reduce CO[ ...

Reference 674:
Per Google:

R&D activities in Japan on methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2https://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › R&D-activities...
Methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2 can be a useful process for conversion and transportation of hydrogen energy derived from non-fossil energies.

R&D activities in Japan on methanol synthesis from CO ...https://link.springer.com › content › pdf
by M Saito · 1998 · Cited by 113 — Catalysis Surveys from Japan 2 (1998) 175–184. 175. R&D activities in Japan on methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2. Masahiro Saito.

R&D activities in Japan on methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2 ...https://www.deepdyve.com › springer-journals › r-d-act...
Methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2 can be a useful process for conversion and transportation of hydrogen energy derived from non-fossil energies.

(th)

Offline

#28 2021-08-20 09:31:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

I've decided to take Post #28 out of the flow and set it aside for development of related subtopics ...

SearchTerm:Todo items in Dedicated topic .... >> Distribution, Monitoring, Labor displacement (adjustment for), etc


Potential subtopics

1) Distributor in region of customer - buffer between global entity and customer
2) Global Entity .... responsibilities
3) National supervision - taxation
4) Global supervision - taxation

Offline

#29 2021-08-20 12:56:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of one sentence from Section 13.2:

These catalysts are based on Cu/ZnO/Al2O3 and very similar to those used presently in the industry for methanol production via syngas frm fossil fuel.

In considering that statement, while noting the presence of Copper, Zinc and Aluminum, I am wondering if these are loaded into a processing facility and then used repeatedly throughout the life of the production system.

Input to the facility is CO2 and water, and a supply of energy.

At this point, as the text unfolds, (I at least) have not discovered what other consumables may be involved.

It is entirely possible that catalysts are altered by their use so they must be reconditioned at another facility.  That is definitely something to watch for as we proceed.  The ideal circumstance (from my point of view) would be for the facility to operate without human intervention for 10 years at a time, given the prospect of availability of a 1 MW fission package able to operate on lease for a period of 10 years without intervention, albeit with close supervision.

(th)

Offline

#30 2021-08-21 09:38:57

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of two sentences from the bottom of page 340 and from Section 13.2:

In view of our present understanding of the mechanism of methanol synthesis from syngas, this is not unexpected. It is now generally accepted that methanol is most probably formed by hydrogenation of CO2 contained in syngas on the catalyst's surface.

I hope to learn in days or weeks ahead that the catalyst is not damaged by whatever process it taking place in the quotation above.  Permanence of material added to a methanol production facility would definitely be advantageous, because otherwise potential profits from delivery of product would be reduced.

***
In another topic (Nuclear Safe) Calliban is working on the problem of delivering atomic energy safely to vast numbers of the population of Earth.  I am interested in seeing that abundance ultimately delivered (either directly through management of assets themselves, or virtually through management services) to the entire population, without regard to any of the usual exclusion parameters.

My reasoning is based upon what I understand of the philosophy of Silicon Valley.  For every 10 entrepreneurs funded, 9 fail.  The 1 success outweighs the losses of the failures by orders of magnitude.

There is a possibility that there is an  Einstein born every so many billion births.  If that is the case, it is likely that there are more frequent occurrences of special case personalities such as the robber barons of the past century, or the Internet CEO's of the more recent time.

The present system of depending upon parents to identify and support such talent is disorganized and wasteful.  A better system would be to assume that such talents are distributed at random throughout the population of Earth, and to put into place systems, procedures and social conventions that allow such talents to be identified and nurtured wherever they were born.

A few such talents can provide abundance for the entire population.

(th)

Offline

#31 2021-08-22 06:52:08

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence.  We are heading into a paragraph whose purpose is to show unsatisfactory solutions.

In order to be converted to methanol, the CO in the syngas first undergoes a water shift (WGS) reaction to form CO2 and H2.

That sure does look like a step backward, if our objective is to find a way to go from CO2 and H2 to methanol directly.

***
Completely aside from the focus of ** this ** topic, which is production of methanol from CO2 and H2, the larger picture includes a need for delivery of nuclear fission power in packages that can safely be deployed at thousands of locations around the United States and (hopefully) around the world where social structures are sufficiently stable to permit the risk.

Production of methanol is just ** one ** of the vast number of potential applications for 1 MW of electrical power leased for 10 years, with hassle-free swap out of exhausted units for new ones, courtesy of large entities vetted at the National and Global level to perform the service.

Direct production of electricity for the retail market is most definitely an option a small business owner might consider.

However, in the world of Climate Change, delivery of potable water from (nearby) seawater is most definitely an opportunity to serve a large and growing market.

Other small business owners may decide to lease a power package to deliver reliable, hassle-free power for small manufacturing operations.

Other small business owners may find that 1 MW of constant, reliable power is a reliable rock upon which to build a set of residences or sets of residences.

(th)

Offline

#32 2021-08-23 06:47:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence, with three references:

The formed CO2 then reacts with hydrogen to yield methanol [532, 675, 676].

Reference 532: Google search ....

Scholarly articles for hansen, j.b. (1997) methanol synthesis in handbook of heterogeneous catalysis vol 4
Atom-resolved imaging of dynamic shape changes in … - Hansen - Cited by 1217
Handbook of heterogeneous catalysis - Ertl - Cited by 3298
Methanol synthesis beyond chemical equilibrium - Van Bennekom - Cited by 74

13.13 Methanol Synthesis - Wiley Online Libraryhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com › doi › abs › 9783527610...
by JB Hansen · 2008 · Cited by 211 — Handbook of Heterogeneous Catalysis: Online ... Introduction; Thermodynamics; Methanol Synthesis Catalysts. Introduction; ZnO/Cr2O3 Catalyst ...

Handbook of Heterogeneous Catalysis - Wiley Online Libraryhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com › 9783527619474.fmatter
Oct 3, 2010 — Bew, for their highly competent and professional cooperation. It is our hope that this Handbook of Hetero- geneous Catalysis may promote the ...

Deactivation of Supported Copper Catalysts for Methanol ...https://link.springer.com › article
by M Kurtz · 2003 · Cited by 199 — J. B. Hansen, in: Handbook of Heterogeneous Catalysis, Vol. 4, eds. G. Ertl, H. Knozinger and J. Weitkamp (Wiley-VCH, Weinheim, 1997) p. 1856.

Handbook of Heterogeneous Catalysis - CiteSeerXhttp://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu › viewdoc › downloadPDF
by G Ertl · Cited by 3298 — heterogeneous catalysts are limited in their ability to reveal details of oxide surface ... water or of methanol), while a broad peak near 300 K is.

State of the art and perspectives in heterogeneous catalysis of ...https://pubs.rsc.org › content › articlelanding
by J Zhong · 2020 · Cited by 141 — The advances in industrial applications for methanol synthesis are ... In particular, the heterogeneous catalytic hydrogenation of CO2 ...

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, G. K. Surya Prakash · 2018 · Science
Eng. 94 (4): 623–635. 532 Hansen, J.B. (1997). Methanol synthesis. In: Handbook of Heterogeneous Catalysis, vol. 4 (ed. G. Ertl, H. Knözinger and J.

Reference 675: Google search ...

Scholarly articles for ostrovskii,v.e. (2002) mechanism of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides
… methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides … - Ostrovskii - Cited by 78

Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon ...https://www.researchgate.net › ... › Heterogeneous Catalysis
Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu–Zn-containing catalysts in the context of some fundamental problems of heterogeneous ...

Health & Environmental Research Online (HERO) | US EPAhttps://hero.epa.gov › reference › details › reference_id
by VE Ostrovskii · 2002 · Cited by 78 — Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu-Zn-containing catalysts ... Author(s). Ostrovskii, VE. Year. 2002. Is Peer Reviewed?

Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon ...https://www.infona.pl › resource
by VE Ostrovskii · 2002 · Cited by 78 — Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu-Zn-co… more. V.E. Ostrovskii · Details · Contributors · Fields of science ...

Kinetic Modeling Of Methanol Synthesis From Carbon ...http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu › cgi › viewcontentPDF
by D Rahman · 2012 · Cited by 9 — Carbon Dioxide, And Hydrogen Over A Cu/ZnO/Cr2O3 Catalyst ... Ostrovskii, studied methanol synthesis mechanism on Cu/Zn containing catalyst under a.

Methanol Synthesis from CO2 - MDPIhttps://www.mdpi.com › pdfPDF
by R Guil-López · 2019 · Cited by 45 — Previous studies describing the mechanism of methanol synthesis ... are necessary to catalyse the hydrogenation of carbon oxides [45,47,53].
Missing: ostrovskii, | Must include: ostrovskii,

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economyhttps://books.google.com › books
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, G. K. Surya Prakash · 2018 · Science
Ostrovskii, V.E. (2002). Mechanism of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu‐Zn containing catalysts in the context of some ...

Transformation and Utilization of Carbon Dioxidehttps://books.google.com › books
Bhalchandra M. Bhanage, Masahiko Arai · 2014 · Science
Catal Today 28:223–230 Ostrovskii VE (2002) Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu-Zn-containing catalysts in the context of ...

Methanol: Science and Engineering - Page 91 - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
Angelo Basile, Francesco Dalena · 2017 · Technology & Engineering
Ostrovskii, V.E., 2002. Mechanisms of methanol synthesis from hydrogen and carbon oxides at Cu-Zn-containing catalysts in the context of ...

Reference 676: From Google search ...

Scholarly articles for rozovskii, a.y and lin. g.i (2003) fundamentals of methanol synthesis and
Fundamentals of methanol synthesis and … - Rozovskii - Cited by 188

Fundamentals of Methanol Synthesis and Decompositionhttps://link.springer.com › article
by AY Rozovskii · 2003 · Cited by 188 — Yu.B. Kagan, G.I. Lin, A.Ya. Rozovskii, S.M. Loktev, E.V. Slivinskii, A.N. Bashkirov, I.P. Naumov, I.K. Khludenev, G.A. Kudinov and Yu.I. Golovkin, Kinet. Catal ...

Fundamentals of Methanol Synthesis and ... - ResearchGatehttps://www.researchgate.net › publication › 263210710_...
Methanol synthesis over Cu-based catalysts was found to occur by CO2 ... system ( Rozovskii and Lin, 2003; Peter et al., 2012;Bozzano and Manenti, 2016).

Fundamentals of Methanol Synthesis and Decompositionhttps://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › Fundamentals-...
136 Citations · A. Rozovskii, G. Lin, +5 authors I. Zavalishin · Chemistry · 2007.

Rozovskii Et Al. (2003) - Fundamentals of Methanol Synthesis ...https://www.scribd.com › document › Rozovskii-Et-Al-20...
A.Y. Rozovskii, G.I. Lin/Methanol synthesis and decomposition. formation of methyl formate, which decomposes then into CO and H2 : 2CH3 OH !

Rozovskii Et Al. (2003) - Fundamentals of Methanol Synthesis and ...https://dokumen.tips › amp › documents › rozovskii-et-...
Fundamentals of methanol synthesis and decomposition Alexander Ya. Rozovskii and Galina I. Lin Topchiev Institute of Petrochemical Synthesis, ...

Understanding the generation of methanol synthesis and ...https://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii
by SK Wilkinson · 2016 · Cited by 52 — Mechanistically sound kinetic model show for methanol synthesis and WGS reaction. ... V.P. Mochalin, G.I. Lin, A.Y. Rozovskii. Khim. Promst., 1 (1984), p.

Methanol: Science and Engineering - Page 92 - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
Angelo Basile, Francesco Dalena · 2017 · Technology & Engineering
Rozovskii, A.Y., Lin, G.I., 2003. Fundamentals of methanol synthesis and decomposition. Top. Catal. 22, 137–150. Rozovskii, A.Y., Lin, G.I., Liberov, L.G., ...

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, G. K. Surya Prakash · 2018 · Science
676 Rozovskii, A.Y. and Lin, G.I. (2003). Fundamentals of methanol synthesis and decomposition. Top. Catal. 22 (3– 4): 137. 677 Chinchen, G.C., Denny, P.J., ...

(th)

Offline

#33 2021-08-24 10:06:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence with references:

CO would therefore serve essentially as a CO2 source as well as a scavenger for the oxygen atoms in water, which acts as an inhibitor for the active metal sites [677,678]

My interpretation of this statement is that CO is unwanted and unneeded in the process toward which we are heading.  It is my understanding we want to take in pure CO2 and water, and deliver Methanol with O2 as a byproduct that itself has commercial value.  However, beyond the idea of CO not being needed or wanted, if I understand the quote correctly, CO in the gas mix will interfere with the operation of the metal catalyst beds.

***
This series of posts is proceeding as a soliloquy.  However, if there is a person qualified to comment from a place of knowledge about the chemistry under discussion here, I would welcome correction or clarification, or even confirmation if that is earned.

***
The overall scope of this topic, in parallel with one just created to consider a book on a kind of nuclear fission reactor, is to conceive of an alternate future which might occur on Earth, to deliver the abundance of the Universe more or less equally to the citizens of the planet, regardless of their situation at birth.

The target abundance I have in mind is 1 megawatt of electrical power, either directly under the management of the citizen, or indirectly as a virtual asset managed for the citizen by others regulated closely to do so in an honorable manner.

To get from "here" in 2021 on Planet Earth, to the staged objective, will require organizational change on a large scale.  However, I believe that humans have already demonstrated the capability to either cause or respond to change on the needed scale.

There are plenty of risks from here to there, but as kbd512 has pointed out more than once on this forum, **all** of life is full of risks.

Reference 677:

About 682 results (0.91 seconds)

Health & Environmental Research Online (HERO) | US EPAhttps://hero.epa.gov › reference › details › reference_id
by GC Chinchen · 1987 · Cited by 558 — MECHANISM OF METHANOL SYNTHESIS FROM CO2/CO/H2 MIXTURES OVER COPPER/ZINC OXIDE/ALUMINA ... Chinchen, GC; Denny, PJ; Parker, DG; Spencer, MS; Whan, DA.
Missing: pi, et al.

Mechanism of Methanol Synthesis on Cu through CO2 and ...https://www.researchgate.net › ... › Methanol
Apr 20, 2018 — (8) Chinchen, G. C.; Denny, P. J.; Parker, D. G.; Spencer, M. S.;. Whan, D. A. Appl. Catal. 1987,30, 333. (9) ...

Kinetic modelling of methanol synthesis over commercial ...https://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii
by F Nestler · 2020 · Cited by 13 — Increased CO2 contents are known to decrease the reaction kinetics, equilibrium conversion and lead towards faster catalyst deactivation due to ...

Mechanism of Methanol Synthesis on Cu(100) and Zn/Cu(100 ...http://www.qcri.or.jp › pdfs › 255-JQC.77.341.pdfPDF
by H NAKATSUJI · 2000 · Cited by 64 — 4. Chinchen, G. C.; Denny, P. J.; Parker, D. G.; Spencer, M. S.;. Waugh, K. C.; Whan, D. A. Appl Catal 1987, 30 ...
9 pages

Kinetic Modeling Of Methanol Synthesis From Carbon ...http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu › cgi › viewcontentPDF
by D Rahman · 2012 · Cited by 9 — Kinetic Modeling Of Methanol Synthesis From Carbon Monoxide,. Carbon Dioxide, And Hydrogen Over A Cu/ZnO/Cr2O3 Catalyst. Daaniya Rahman.

Kinetic Modeling of Methanol Synthesis from Renewable ...https://pure.mpg.de › rest › file_3009210 › contentPDF
by C Seidel · 2018 · Cited by 42 — CO is negligible (Bussche and Froment, 1996; Chinchen et al., 1987, 1990). Corresponding Langmuir-Hinshelwood kinetics were proposed by ...

THE KINETICS OF THE METHANOL SYNTHESIS ON A COPPER ...https://research.utwente.nl › files
1987; Chinchen et al., 1987a; Shub, 1983) more and more evidence is given that under industrial conditions and for a CO, containing synthesis gas, a.

CO2 hydrogenation to methanol and dimethyl ether at ... - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC7925302
by C TUYGUN · 2021 — Keywords: CO2hydrogenation to methanol, dimethyl ether, ... [Google Scholar]; Chinchen GC Denny PJ Parker DG Spencer MS Whan DA Mechanism of ...

Methanol Synthesis from CO2/H2 over Pd-promoted Cu/Zn0 ...https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk › bitstream › Sahibzad...PDF
by M Sahibzada · Cited by 6 — the mechanism of CO2 hydrogenation to methanol [2.4]. CO2 + 3H2 ** CH3OH + ... Vedage et al (146) found that methanol synthesis from CO/H2 was promoted by.
146 pages

Catalysed Methanol Synthesis from Carbon Dioxide, Carbon ...https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk › Sun-J-1998-PhD-ThesisPDF
by JT Sun — On the basis of these results, Chinchen et al. {7} speculated that the reaction of carbon monoxide-hydrogen or carbon dioxide-carbon ...
243 pages

Methanol synthesis plant - Methanol production process
Ad·
https://www.kapsom.com/
+86 189 1300 7200
Heat transfer coefficient 30% higher than conventional tube converter. The Methanol Production Process Is a Typical Loop Process. ASME/TEMA/ISO Standard.
Gas Plant Solutions · Contact Us

Reference 678:

About 1,020 results (0.63 seconds)

Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisitedhttps://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › abs › pii
by JCJ Bart · 1987 · Cited by 394 — Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited. Author links open overlay panelJ.C.J.BartR.P.A.Sneeden. Show more. Add to Mendeley.

Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisitedhttps://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › pii
by JCJ Bart · 1987 · Cited by 394 — Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited ... G. Vlaic, J.C.J. Bart, W. Cavigiolo, B. Pianzola, S. Mobilio. J. Catal., 96 (1985), p. 314.
Missing: bart, jcj sneeden, rpa (1987).

The role of zinc oxide in Cu/ZnO catalysts for methanol ...https://link.springer.com › article
by MS Spencer · 1999 · Cited by 380 — The possible role of zinc oxide as well as copper in the mechanisms of methanol synthesis is still the subject of ... J.C.J. Bart and R.P.A. Sneeden, Catal.

Synthesis of methanol from carbon monoxide and hydrogen ...https://pubs.acs.org › doi › abs
by RM Agny · 1985 · Cited by 52 — Synthesis of methanol from carbon monoxide and hydrogen over a copper-zinc oxide-alumina catalyst ... J.C.J. Bart, R.P.A. Sneeden.

The structure of the copper/zinc oxide catalyst by an in-situ ...https://pubs.acs.org › doi
by K Tohji · 1985 · Cited by 140 — 1988,,, 783-790. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0167-2991(09)60706-0; J.C.J. Bart, R.P.A. Sneeden. Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts ...

Alcohols from synthesis gas : a status report. (Book, 1987) [WorldCat ...http://www.worldcat.org › oclc
Contents: Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited / J.C.J. Bart and R.P.A. Sneeden. -- Synthesis of higher alcohols from syngas / by Xu ...

Synthesis, Modification, and Characterization of CuO/ZnO/ZrO ...https://www.mdpi.com › htm
by ES Borovinskaya · 2019 · Cited by 2 — CuO/ZnO/ZrO2 catalyst systems were synthesized in different ways and comprehensively ... Bart, J.C.J.; Sneeden, R.P.A. Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol ...

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, G. K. Surya Prakash · 2018 · Science
678 Bart, J.C.J. and Sneeden, R.P.A. (1987). Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited. Catal. Today 2 (1): 1–124. 679 Tijm, P.J.A., Waller, ...

Transformation and Utilization of Carbon Dioxidehttps://books.google.com › books
Bhalchandra M. Bhanage, Masahiko Arai · 2014 · Science
Appl Catal 36:1–65 Bart JCJ, Sneeden RPA (1987) Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited. Catal Today 2:1–124 Yang C, Ma Z, ...

Carbon Dioxide Chemistry, Capture and Oil Recoveryhttps://books.google.com › books
Iyad Karamé, Janah Shaya, Hassan Srour · 2018 · Science
1987;30(2):333-338 Bart JCJ, Sneeden RPA. Copper-zinc oxide-alumina methanol catalysts revisited. Catalysis Today. 1987;2(1):1-124 Waugh KC.
Related searches

(th)

Offline

#34 2021-08-24 11:25:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

Speaking of Methanol ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/maer … 00872.html

Maersk Makes $1.4 Billion Green Bet on Methanol-Fueled Ships
Jack Wittels
Tue, August 24, 2021, 10:30 AM
(Bloomberg) -- The world’s largest container-shipping line is making a $1.4 billion investment in a greener fleet.

A.P. Moller - Maersk A/S has ordered eight new vessels, each costing $175 million, that can be propelled by cleanly made methanol instead of an oil-based fuel. They’re set for delivery from 2024.

“We don’t believe in more fossil fuels,” Morten Bo Christiansen, vice president and head of decarbonization, said in an interview. “A lot of our customers are very, very supportive of this.”

(th)

Offline

#35 2021-08-25 08:43:59

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one long sentence:

It has been shown that reacting on a commercial methanol catalyst a CO/H2 mixture, carefully purified from CO2 and water, produces no or very little metanol.

It would certainly appear that trying to use CO in this process is a waste of time.

***
The specific objective of this topic is to discover (through the guidance of Olah, Goeppert and Prakash) how to make methanol using CO2 and water as input, and nuclear fission power as the mechanism.  It seems clear that there will be opportunities to find markets for methanol, as shown in Post #33 above.

For quite some time, an organization that produces methanol as described above will be competing with entities that produce methanol from traditional fossil based resources.  The question that is most interesting (to me at least) is whether a nuclear fission driven process can compete with the fossil based producers.

Politics may come into play .... it is entirely possible that entire Nation States may decide to eliminate combustion of fossil sourced carbon fuels.

That can happen if a reliable non-fossil alternative is available.

As discussed earlier in this topic and elsewhere, conversion of an entire planet from fossil fuels to renewable and nuclear alternatives is a problem of organizational change.  A well planned and well executed organizational change moves from state (A) to state (B) without losing anyone along the way, and ideally the net result is that everyone who made the change is better off, or at a minimum, no worse off than before the change.

A reality is that human tribes (of all sizes) have arranged themselves in zones of potential conflict.  It appears to me (at this point) that much of the conflict or potential conflict is a consequence of male aggression.  Another part of the conflict (or potential for conflict) that exists is due to failure to meet the needs of populations, who necessarily strive to achieve longevity by attempting to beg or in some cases, steal from neighbors.

Since this is the Mars forum, I note that those who seem to think that Mars can be settled by humans, without their bringing their tribal instincts and behaviors into the situation are hopelessly naive.

(th)

Offline

#36 2021-08-26 10:53:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one short sentence:

A suitable catalyst should remain active for several years, so as to sustain high plant output.

For the purposes of the coordinated topics of which this one is a part, the duration of productive service should be ten years.

A goal of ten years of productive service has been set for a 1 MW fission reactor.  While there are many ways in which a small business owner might decide to invest the electric output of the reactor to provide the most favorable return, production of methanol from CO2 and H2 (air and water) will always stand as an attractive option.

The scenario of a ten year lease for the power module can be extended (in this case) to the methanol production module.

The module will require service after ten years, so it can be swapped out by a larger entity set up to handle customer contact. The exhausted unit can be returned to a factory organized to make new methane molules from scratch, or to refurbish returned ones if that is considered feasible.

***
In another venue, I am reviewing the work of a writer who is thinking about tribal behavior of human beings.  I consider the tribal history of human beings to be of great significance for organizational change at the level of the current discussion.

In the work under study, the writer is thinking about a subset of the range of tribes: American, Japanese and Indian.

The context of the review is that (about 7) members of each tribe are brought together in an expedition.  They are chosen as the best candidates for available positions from within their tribes, but they are not given any time at all to learn anything about each other.  All they have to go on at the beginning of the work is a set of preconceptions most readers of this forum would (I suspect) recognize.
***
The context for this consideration of tribes takes place in the present frame of a global change of energy production, from a hodge podge of non-atomic methods, to a primarily atomic one.

As can be seen in the daily news of 2021, there are tribes within tribes, and tribes interwoven with other tribes.

This is NOT a simple problem.

The technical solutions appear to have been solved, admittedly by some of the most intelligent people on the planet.

The population of Earth is thought by some to adhere to various "bell" curves of measurable attributes.

A solution that would meet the needs of such a large and diverse population is NOT a technical one.  It is almost entirely a social problem.

(th)

Offline

#37 2021-08-27 14:51:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence:

Deactivation through sintering (clustering of copper sites), carbon deposition, and other phenomena should therefore be minimal to avoid premature catalyst replacement and associated costs.

Since the purpose of the paragraph is to show what NOT to do, the sentence above supports the argument.

The goal I am holding in mind is to achieve/find a package that can autonomously deliver methanol from air and water using 1 MW of electrical energy from a nuclear fission plant for 10 years, without requiring operator adjustment of any kind.

The small business that floats a loan to lease the reactor and the methanol plant will be taking the risk they can pay for the lease of the equipment, all associated expenses including land rental or taxes if owned, insurance and property maintenance costs.

The large entities that supply the modules will require a remittance to cover their expenses and to insure a profit.

The modules themselves will be leased by even larger entities that assume the massive risks of creating thousands of the imagined pods, refurbishing them, and managing the materials involved in all phases of the operation.

(th)

Offline

#38 2021-08-28 09:56:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence and a reference.

Improvement to the catalyst system's activity and stability over time is therefore of prime importance for the economics of any methanol plant[679].

With this statement, the authors conclude a paragraph calling for a catalyst that can remain active for several years.

The time frame of this topic/study is ten years.   I am looking for a module that can be delivered to a customer site, in coordination with delivery of a 1 MW nuclear fission module, to operate safely and reliably for ten years on a lease.  If the customer chooses to offer green methanol in competition with fossil fuel sources, then the price charged customers must at minimum match that of the fossil sourced equivalent.

While the small business that undertakes a lease will certainly have assumed risk, the far greater risk is borne by the larger entities that create the modules, distribute them and watch over them as a security responsibility, and pull them back for refurbishing and redeployment.

Reference 679:

Methanol technology developments for the new millenniumhttps://www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › abs › pii
Nov 30, 2001 — This contribution to the “special issue” of Applied Catalysis A: General entitled “Industrial catalytic processes” deals with the ...

Health & Environmental Research Online (HERO) | US EPAhttps://hero.epa.gov › reference › details › reference_id
by PJA Tijm · 2001 · Cited by 299 — Methanol technology developments for the new millennium. Author(s). Tijm, PJA; Waller, FJ; Brown, DM. Year. 2001. Is Peer Reviewed?

Methanol technology developments for the new millennium ...https://www.researchgate.net › publication › 228910200_...
Jun 1, 2021 — ... Methanol synthesis is a critical step in converting MSW to gasoline, and it is described in more detail by Tijm et al. [28] . The clean ...

Methanol technology developments for the new millenniumhttps://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › Methanol-tech...
P. Tijm, F. J. Waller, Dennis M. Brown · Published 2001 · Chemistry · Applied Catalysis A-general.
Missing: pja, dm

Methanol technology developments for the new millennium | P.J.A ...https://ur.booksc.eu › book· Translate this page
Methanol technology developments for the new millennium | P.J.A Tijm; F.J Waller; D.M Brown | download | BookSC. Download books for free. Find books.

Methanol: Science and Engineering - Page 51 - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
Angelo Basile, Francesco Dalena · 2017 · Technology & Engineering
Tijm, P.J.A., Waller, F.J., Brown, D.M., 2001. Methanol technology developments for the new millennium. Appl. Catal. A Gen. 221, 275–282.

Carbon Dioxide Recovery and Utilizationhttps://books.google.com › books
M. Aresta · 2013 · Science
6. Tijm, P.J.A., Waller, F.J., Brown, D.M. “Methanol technology developments for the new millennium” Appl. Catal. A 221, 275-282, 2001. 7. Lange, J-P.

Transformation and Utilization of Carbon Dioxidehttps://books.google.com › books
Bhalchandra M. Bhanage, Masahiko Arai · 2014 · Science
Comput Chem Eng 44:104–126 Tijm PJA, Waller FJ, Brown DM (2001) Methanol technology developments for the new millennium. Appl Catal A 221:275–282 Jahanmiri ...

Catalysis for Clean Energy and Environmental Sustainability: ...https://books.google.com › books
K. K. Pant, Sanjay Kumar Gupta, Ejaz Ahmad · 2021 · Biomass conversion
New photocatalytic materials with high quantum yields and innovation in the ... Tijm PJA, Waller FJ, Brown DM (2001) “Methanol technology developments for ...

Methanol Production from Natural Gas | SpringerLinkhttps://link.springer.com › chapter
by AA Lemonidou · 2003 · Cited by 7 — Tijm, P.J.A., Waller, F.J., Brown, D.M. “Methanol technology developments for the new millennium” Appl. Catal. A 221, 275–282, 2001.CrossRefGoogle Scholar.

(th)

Offline

#39 2021-08-30 09:43:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence and a reference.

On a commercially standard catalyst (for example from Sud-Chemie), CO2 hydrogenation was found to be slower than CO hydrogenation. [680].

Presumably the reference cited will support this assertion. 

The frame within which we are considering this sentence is the search for (and promise of) a way to efficiently prepare methanol using CO2 and H2 as inputs, and it would appear that discussion of the best catalyst, and the best operating conditions for the process, will continue for some while.

We have started this adventure on page 340, and the book concludes on page 392.   

The entirety of page 340 took from 8/07 through 8/21, or 14 days.

If we extrapolate from that pace, it will take 52*14 >> 728 days or 104 weeks or 2 Earth years!

In ** that ** amount of time, it should be possible to assemble enough knowledge to create a viable plan to set the envisioned alternate future into motion.

For today, it is sufficient to explore the reference:

Reference 680:

About 1,570 results (0.67 seconds)

CO 2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for ...https://www.researchgate.net › publication › 251605281_...
Request PDF | On Aug 1, 2011, Florian Pontzen and others published CO 2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for industrial scale production ...

CO2-based methanol and DME ― Efficient technologies for ...https://www.academia.edu › CO2_based_methanol_and...
CO2-based methanol and DME ― Efficient technologies for industrial scale ... production Florian Pontzen a,∗ , Waldemar Liebner b , Veronika Gronemann b ...

CO2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for ...https://www.semanticscholar.org › paper › CO2-based-me...
CO2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for industrial scale production · F. Pontzen, W. Liebner, +2 authors B. Ahlers · Published 2011 · Chemistry ...
Missing: et | Must include: et

Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy - Google Books Resulthttps://books.google.com › books
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert, G. K. Surya Prakash · 2018 · Science
680 Pontzen, F., Liebner, W., Gronemann, V. et al. (2011). CO2-based methanol and DME – efficient technologies for industrial scale production. Catal.

Transformation and Utilization of Carbon Dioxidehttps://books.google.com › books
Bhalchandra M. Bhanage, Masahiko Arai · 2014 · Science
Pontzen F, Liebner W, Gronemann V et al (2011) CO2-based methanol and DME efficient technologies for industrial scale production. Catal Today 171:242–250 9.

From Molecules to Materials: Pathways to Artificial ...https://books.google.com › books
Elena A. Rozhkova, Katsuhiko Ariga · 2015 · Technology & Engineering
Pontzen F, Liebner W, Gronemann V et al (2011). CO2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for industrial scale production. Catal.

Power-to-liquid via synthesis of methanol, DME or Fischerhttps://pubs.rsc.org › content › articlelanding
by V Dieterich · 2020 · Cited by 47 — F. Pontzen , W. Liebner , V. Gronemann , M. Rothaemel and B. Ahlers , CO2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for industrial scale production, ...

Methanol Synthesis: Optimal Solution for a Better Efficiency of ...https://www.mdpi.com › pdfPDF
by G Leonzio · 2018 · Cited by 22 — Methanol production via CO2 hydrogenation is an important representative among the chemical conversions of CO2 and offers challenging ...

Development of an Efficient Methanol Production Process for ...https://www.mdpi.com › pdfPDF
by F Samimi · 2017 · Cited by 24 — However, the commercial methanol synthesis catalyst offers a poor efficiency in CO2 feedstock because of a low conversion of CO2 and its.

Rigorous and Customizable 1D Simulation Framework for ...https://pubs.acs.org › doi › full
by H Hamedi · 2021 · Cited by 1 — Pontzen, F.; Liebner, W.; Gronemann, V.; Rothaemel, M.; Ahlers, B. CO2-based methanol and DME – Efficient technologies for industrial scale ...
Related searches
power-to liquid wiki
power-to-liquid jet fuel
methanol synthesis from syngas reaction
methanol synthesis from co2 and h2
methanol synthesis from syngas process
methanol synthesis process
methanol synthesis reaction
power-to-liquid fuel

(th)

Offline

#40 2021-08-31 10:47:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Estimated completion date for this study is 2023/08/31

Today's post is inspired by Page 341 Section 13.3 Heterogeneous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO2 and H2

***
From page 341:

Today's quote consists of one sentence:

The selectivity was, however, higher, with less by-product formation, when CO2 was used as a carbon source.

The sentence above comes from a paragraph devoted to showing the capabilities and difficulties of trying to use a commercially standard catalyst.

The paragraph concludes with a hint that better solutions may be available.

***
The context of the present study is to find one (of many possible) avenues for development of a small business around the availability of a 1 MW nuclear reactor package available for lease for a ten year period, with automatic replacement from the reactor provider available as an option, or removal if the lease is not renewed by either party.

It would appear likely that such a reactor could produce a (relatively) fixed quantity of methanol with intake of air and water.

However, the principles of Division of Labor would suggest that the functions of isolating CO2 from air and pure H2O from sea (or turbid fresh) water should be carried out by a third package dedicated to those activities.  Thus, the power output from the reactor would be divided between the functions, to achieve whatever deliverable is possible.

(th)

Offline

#41 2021-09-14 08:38:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/porsche-bre … 00937.html

Porsche breaks ground on plant to make ground-breaking synthetic fuel
Ronan Glon
Mon, September 13, 2021 10:30 AM

This is ** exactly ** what this book is about!

The difference is that Porsche is planning to use wind power in Chile to make the fuel.

Porsche and its international partners have started building the factory that will produce a new synthetic fuel starting in 2022. Located in southern Chile, the plant will make fuel for race cars, sports cars like the 911, and classic cars.

Producing synthetic fuel is an extremely complex and highly innovative process. In the company's words, electrolysers split water into oxygen and hydrogen using wind power, hence why the plant is in Chile; it's located in one of the most reliably windy parts of the world. CO2 is then filtered from the air and combined with the hydrogen to produce synthetic methanol, which in turn is converted into fuel that can be burned in a piston engine.

The fuel will be more expensive than fossil fuels, but in my opinion, that is a temporary situation.

In just a few years it will become a social faux pas to extract fossil fuel in order to use it for something so crude as burning it.

The technology needed to make synthetic fuel exists.  The challenge is to find ways to make it in sufficient quantity, and at a competitive price, so that it makes more sense to use ** real ** hydrocarbons as lubricants and for other useful products.

(th)

Offline

#42 2021-09-14 19:28:13

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

tahanson43206,

You think it's going to be "a global crime" to extract fuel to generate power "in just a few years"?

What alternate universe are you living in?

There is no "beyond oil and gas", in much the same way that there is no "beyond Iron" or "beyond Aluminum" or "beyond Physics 101", either.  At a global scale, batteries don't work to power anything beyond laptops and cell phones.  Simple physics doesn't care about the feelings of our magical thinkers, nor their night terrors over their favorite boogeyman which has never physically harmed them, namely "global warming", so most people use gasoline or diesel and call it a day.  10 years from now, we'll be drilling for oil.  Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional in the extreme.  We sure as hell won't have a colony on Mars without all that natural gas we extract to burn in the rockets to send people there.

Incidentally, there's a simple reason why we don't power cars on methanol / ethanol.  It takes twice as much methanol (9,500BTU/lb) for equivalent range, as compared to gasoline (18,400BTU/lb).  At $37 USD per gallon, I'm not sure who Porsche will be selling their methanol to, but it won't be the majority of people who use cars, nor the majority of Porsche owners.

Go back to the drawing board.  See if you can come up with a solution that doesn't end with one half of the populace murdering the other half.

Online

#43 2021-09-14 19:57:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

For kbd512 .... Thanks for pointing out the "over the top" language in that post .... I'll go back and tone it down.

The point I was trying to make was that the technology Calliban brought to our attention is already in service, and the wind farm in Chile is the latest example. It will be a while before (if ever) I learn enough to find out if nuclear fission is capable of generating methanol at a price that is competitive with dug-up fuel.

As far as half the population killing the other half ... we humans seem to be doing a ** really good job ** of setting up that scenario by collectively failing to understand what the problem is, and what we collectively need to be doing to solve it.

And! Not to worry ... methanol is a feed stock for all sorts of fuels.  Invest the energy and charge what you need to make a profit.

The point of making methanol is that the process is known.  The process works.  The process ** is ** working.  Let's go with it.

(th)

Offline

#44 2021-09-14 21:20:56

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

tahanson43206,

Familiarity breeds far too much contempt amongst far too many people who have received incalculable benefit from fossil fuels.  Every solar panel and wind turbine on the planet was made using fossil fuels.  That is a fact, whether anyone likes it or not.  All this wonderful technology we have today wouldn't exist without liquid hydrocarbon fuels.  Pricing more than half the country out of the energy market only leads to famine, pestilence, war, and ultimately, destitution.  I've never heard anyone tell me that they want to be destitute for the rest of their life, but that's where all this "make-believe" regarding energy alternatives ultimately leads to.

Unless our "deep thinkers" really want to go back to living the way we did in the Middle Ages, then they really ought to think about the ultimate viability of their purported solutions.  Word to the wise, during the Middle Ages intellectuals were stoned to death far more often than they were put up on pedestals.  Recall the demise of Socrates or Aristotle, or what nearly befell da Vinci, if you require something to jog your memory.

If your product is 10 times more expensive than what it purports to replace, or even twice as expensive, then it's a plaything for the opulently wealthy to poke and prod at, not a practical substitute for existing technology.  Let's go with something that doesn't cost 10 times more to make, whatever that happens to be, until we can figure out how to get that cost down to something tolerable for the majority of people who use the product.

What, pray tell, amounts to "understanding what the problem is"?

What problem do you imagine you're actually solving by making fuel 10 times more expensive?

I can't determine what problem you're solving, so I need you to explain it further.

Collectives don't solve problems, they merely create new ones.  A solution for you will not be a solution for someone else, due to objective physical reality, not imagined dragons.

What new problem are you willing to live with that's caused by depriving people of energy resources?

Are you willing to live in a country without trees?

How about a country where entire towns of people are wiped out by marauders?

How about no food, no clean drinking water, and no access to medical care?

None of those scenarios created by depriving people of energy resources are something I look forward to, but maybe your opinion differs?

Perhaps you think you won't be affected?

I can't count the number of people who have made that error, nor can you.

Online

#45 2021-09-15 01:49:22

Spaniard
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2008-04-18
Posts: 73

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

kbd512 wrote:

At a global scale, batteries don't work to power anything beyond laptops and cell phones.  Simple physics doesn't care about the feelings of our magical thinkers

But physics doesn't forbid anything of that. Biases does.

I see electric cars working perfectly now, and I didn't see "Mr Physics" appearing screaming to forbid it.

kbd512 wrote:

Every solar panel and wind turbine on the planet was made using fossil fuels.  That is a fact, whether anyone likes it or not.

What did you expect? You live in a world that works mostly on fossil fuels, so every industry, including renewable, using a lot of fossil fuels in the process.
But also uses electricity in a lot of steps of the process... And electricity has partially renewable based.
So, over the same argument, fossil fuels also use renewable energy embedded.

That's a sophism in a broader sense and doesn't means nothing. The thing is that the process to build renewable doesn't require fossil fuels. It uses because our current model uses.
It could need carbon materials and energy for sure. But that doesn't need fossil fuels per se.

In fact, most steps could be changed into electricity based alternatives that are more efficient with cheap electricity. Obviously, that isn't right if the electricity is fuel based from start, so the electricity generation is more wasteful than use the fuel directly in the industry.

But with renewable becoming more and more cheap, and fossil fuels becoming more and more expensive, there is a time where using renewable electricity in a electricity based industry is better and using fossil fuels in a burning fuel based industry.
Things like produce cement or steel will use a lot more electricity and a lot less fuel in next decades, because of the change of the energy mix of this future.

And the rhetoric of "renewable use fossil fuel" will turn false one step at a time.

As an argument about "because that renewable can't work" is flawed.

Offline

#46 2021-09-15 02:04:06

Spaniard
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2008-04-18
Posts: 73

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

tahanson43206 wrote:

The fuel will be more expensive than fossil fuels, but in my opinion, that is a temporary situation.

In just a few years it will become a social faux pas to extract fossil fuel in order to use it for something so crude as burning it.

The technology needed to make synthetic fuel exists.  The challenge is to find ways to make it in sufficient quantity, and at a competitive price, so that it makes more sense to use ** real ** hydrocarbons as lubricants and for other useful products.

(th)

Market tends to choose best suited solution. fuel from electricity will be always more expensive that using electricity directly using batteries.

Of course, there is niches where price is not important, like rich people doesn't care about that, or maybe there is some aspect that is more important in that context. For example, police cars dedicated to persecution, it could be better not to be restricted by short range.

But I don't see good reasons for most people to use the expensive alternative when they can buy an electric car with a lot more cheap recharge.

Yes... Electric cars are more expensive... now. But it is a scale thing. If massive production, the price of batteries will be more cheap than the accumulated price of fuel-recharge difference across the vehicle life. Now, is around the same value. In next years, the difference will be obvious.

Besides... there is some bottlenecks in production. Well... It's expected that it will take time to scale the infrastructure. Battery factories, mining, mineral processing, adapt car manufacturing, etc. etc.

But the sells of electricity cars are exponential. Even if the numbers are low, with exponential numbers it will take less time that most think.

Offline

#47 2021-09-15 05:44:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

For Spaniard re #46

It is good to see your Name posting in the forum again after a time away.

This post is dedicated exclusively to the topic of making methanol from water and carbon dioxide in air.  This topic is NOT about electric vehicles or batteries or anything else.

This topic is exclusively about the accumulation of knowledge and understanding for production of methanol from water and carbon dioxide using energy.

The post you quoted was about production of methanol from air and water using wind power.

If you would like, I can copy your post to a topic better suited for discussion of electric vehicles or  batteries or whatever you think might be better.

(th)

Offline

#48 2021-09-15 08:40:42

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

Spaniard,

To keep tahanson43206's topic, on-topic, I responded to your post here:

Fixing Americas car industry (Post #102)

Online

#49 2021-09-15 08:46:41

Spaniard
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2008-04-18
Posts: 73

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

tahanson43206 wrote:

This post is dedicated exclusively to the topic of making methanol from water and carbon dioxide in air.  This topic is NOT about electric vehicles or batteries or anything else.

But it's related to the topic.

Methanol and synth fuels use hydrogen-electricity for the synthesis. It's the most difficult part to reduce the prices, and it's linked to electricity.

Most projections about synth fuels to become cheaper is because they expect renewable or nuclear energy to become cheaper.
But at the same time, this scenario means that electricity should be cheaper too.

Fuel synthesis always require a less efficient route than a battery route. Create chemicals and burn them is less efficient than electric storage. So, no matters how cheap methanol turns, electricity storage will always be cheaper.

It's relevant because you can't compare today prices of electric cars with future methanol cars, because optimistic projections for methanol means optimistic projections for electric cars too. It will remain uncompetitive no matter how much electricity prices drop.

That's a good argument why it's very difficult for methanol/synth fuels on a future scenario to have a big fraction of the vehicle market. It could be interesting for other markets where batteries are not suitable because lacks of enough energy density like airplanes or maybe long range ships.

Offline

#50 2021-09-15 09:09:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas

For Spaniard .... re #49

Thank you for your continued interest in ** this ** topic!

If you are serious about continuing to assist with development of ** this ** topic, please start reading from the top.

I have no idea of where your interests may lie, but if you are interested in engineering, mathematics, chemistry, finance or building successful organizations to deliver goods and services to human society, you may be able to carve out a niche here.

Start at the top, and ask any questions you may have about any post in the series.

The topic is constructed to follow the work of the authors, sentence by sentence, over a period of (about) two years.

The end result ** should ** be the ability to set up a corporation or a plant within a corporation to deliver methanol from nuclear power plants at prices that are competitive or superior to fossil extraction technologies.

A definite wind-at-the-back for such organizations is that the human race is rapidly moving toward revulsion against burning of original fossil fuel.  Consumption of synthetic fuel is acceptable in the modern frame, and this topic is headed straight-as-an-arrow toward that ability.

(th)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB