Book: Dedicated topic: Beyond Oil and Gas - Methanol economy

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-04 10:18:24

For SpaceNut ....

Newmars Book Club by JoshNH4H
Book 10 Day Trip to Low Earth Orbit by tahanson43206
Robert Zubrin's new book "The Case for Space:" is now available! by EdwardHeisler
Robert Zubrin to Introduce New Book at SoCal Meeting by EdwardHeisler
A New Book by Dr. Zubrin "The Case for Space" can now be ordered! by EdwardHeisler
Book about Life on Mars by tahanson43206
Humans on Mars (New Book) by PLM

Above are the topic titles that contain the word "book"

None seemed a good match for what I have in mind for this topic.

In his topic "Nuclear is Safe" Calliban recommended a book as part of a discussion of creating a subset of the global economy based upon modular fission reactors. The details for the recommended book include:

Cover:
Wiley-VCH
George A. lah, Alain Goeppert, and G.K. Surya Prakash
Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy
Third, Updated and Enlarged edition

The artwork on the cover shows molecules of interest:
CO2, CH4, CH3OCH3 and CH3OH

The book itself is a handsome, sturdy print with fairly dense font, no doubt chosen for a college audience who need a lot of information in a hand-carry package.

I would have preferred the large print version, but suspect there will never be one.

In future posts in this topic, I am planning to report on the experience of diving into this work.

What I'll be looking for, with every word on every page, is any indication whatsoever that the hard work of these three professors can translate into a viable small business based upon the vision of Calliban of a modular fission reactor, and my focus upon the 1 MW low end of that vision.

My belief going into this exercise is that the vision of millions of small capitalist businesses based upon lease of a 1 MW reactor for 10 years is realistic and actually achievable in the real world of Earth:2021.

A personal motivation is the vision of abundance for every citizen of Earth, based purely on the obvious generosity of the Universe. It is a failing of humans to create a culture in which every citizen is able to enjoy and participate in the distribution of that abundance that I am hoping Calliban's vision can address.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-04 10:20:34

This post is reserved for more details about the book "Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy" by Olah, Goeppert and Prakash

This book arrived in a shrink wrapped package. When it opened it just now, if fell open to page 340, almost as though it **knew** I am interested in working from Carbon Dioxide. The previous 339 pages are (I'm sure) important for a college student to study carefully, but those chapters about biofuels and other (no doubt interesting) topics are not where I'm interested in spending limited time.

Page 340 is part of a chapter: Production of Renewable Methanol and DME from Biomass

Topic 13.2 reads: Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

The text looks promising ... Topic 13.3 reads: Heterogenous Catalysts for the Production of Methanol from CO(2) and H(2).

A bit further on, I found text presenting the need to remove CO(2) from the air as part of a "Methanol Economy".

What I am wondering, as I pursue this in the context of calliban's vision of modular fission reactors, is whether income produced from a stand alone facility that makes Methanol from air and water using power from a leased 1 MW reactor would exceed the lease, insurance, taxes and other fees from local authorities that would necessarily be part of the picture.

Local authorities, as well as regional and national ones, must be comfortable with the prospect of having a great number of small fission reactors distributed around the landscape. The ratio of energy from atomic source compared to chemical ones is somewhere in the range of 1:1,000,000 to 1:20,000,000.

The bet I'm making is that the spread between income and expense is sufficient to support a small business, even in the context of an advanced (and very needy) society such as the United States.

Each such small business must support a number of non-productive human beings, and there need to be a lot of such businesses to support the needy people who live in the United States, let alone other less advanced nations.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-05 11:24:14

2021/08/05 Continuing interaction with "Beyond Oil and Gas"

The purpose of this topic is to attempt to envision a viable business plan for a 1 Megawatt reactor that might be leased for 10 years, from a global organization with the necessary skills, deep pockets, wise leadership and government approvals at all levels.

A small business can be imagined able to distribute power from such a reactor, or to manufacture products for the retail market, or conceivably to participate in the commercial market by running a specialized manufacturing facility for components that are ordered by a larger entity.

***
Page 2 includes but is not limited to the following:

The Authors

Prof. George A. Olan
University of Southern California
Loker Hydrocarbon Research Institute
837 Bloom Walk
Los Angeles, CA 90089
United States

Professor Olah is no longer with us:

From Wikipedia:

George Andrew Olah - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › George_Andrew_Olah
Starting in 1980, he served as the Distinguished Donald P. and Katherine B. Loker Professor of Chemistry and later became a distinguished professor in USC's ... Early life and education · Career and research · Personal life · Awards and honours Children: 2 Awards: Tolman Award (1991); Nobel Prize in Chemistry (1994); ForMemRS (1997); Arthur C. Cope Award (2001); Order of the ... Known for: Carbocations via superacids Born: Oláh András György; May 22, 1927; Budapest, Hungary
G. K. Surya Prakash - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › G._K._Surya_Prakash
G. K. Surya Prakash (born 1953) is a professor and holder of the George A. and Judith A. Olah Nobel Laureate Chair in Hydrocarbon Chemistry at the ...
George Andrew Olah - Simple English Wikipedia, the free ...
simple.wikipedia.org › wiki › George_Andrew_Olah
For this research, Olah was awarded a Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1994. ... Olah was a distinguished professor at the University of Southern California and ... Life · Work · References Died: March 8, 2017 (aged 89); Beverly Hills, California, U.S. Awards: Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1994

Upon opening this book, I had no idea one of the authors is (was) a Nobel Prize winner! Nice!

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-05 11:52:33

Professor Olah deserves his own post ....

The next author listed on Page 2 is:

Dr. Alain Goeppert
University of Southern California
Loker Hydrocarbon Research Institute
837 Bloom Walk
Los Angeles, CA 90089
USA

From Wikipedia ...

Alain Goeppert - Research Scientist - University of Southern ...
www.linkedin.com › alain-goeppert-13a44218
Université Louis Pasteur (Strasbourg I). Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)Chemistry. 1998 - 2002. Hydrocarbon chemistry ...

And finally:

Professor G. K. Surya Prakash
University of Southern California
Loker Hydrocarbon Research Institute
837 Bloom Walk
Los Angeles, CA 90089
USA

From Wikipedia:

G. K. Surya Prakash is a professor and holder of the George A. and Judith A. Olah Nobel Laureate Chair in Hydrocarbon Chemistry at the Department of Chemistry at the University of Southern California. He serves as the Director of the Loker... Wikipedia
Born: 1953 (age 68 years), Bengaluru, India

and ...

G. K. Surya Prakash - Faculty Profile > USC Dana and David ...
dornsife.usc.edu › faculty-and-staff › faculty
Professor G. K. Surya Prakash, Ph.D., was born in 1953 in Bangalore, India. He earned a B.Sc (Hons) in chemistry from Bangalore University and an M.S. in ...
G. K. Surya Prakash > Department of Chemistry > USC Dana and ...
dornsife.usc.edu › chemistry › prakash
G. K. Surya Prakash is a Professor and George A. and Judith A. Olah Nobel Laureate Chair in Hydrocarbon Chemistry at USC.
G. K. Surya Prakash - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › G._K._Surya_Prakash
G. K. Surya Prakash ... G. K. Surya Prakash (born 1953) is a professor and holder of the George A. and Judith A. Olah Nobel Laureate Chair in Hydrocarbon ...
Surya Prakash - Google Scholar
scholar.google.com › citations
Surya Prakash. Loker Hydrocarbon Research Institute and ... A Goeppert, M Czaun, JP Jones, GKS Prakash, GA Olah. Chemical Society Reviews 43 (23), ...
G. K. Surya Prakash | C&EN Global Enterprise - ACS Publications
pubs.acs.org › doi › cen-09603-awards11
G. K. Surya Prakash ... Prakash on what he hopes to accomplish in the next decade:“Solve the energy conundrum using carbon dioxide recycling through ...

The quotation of interest in the context of Calliban's vision of a modular reactor, modified by my specification of 1 Megawatt output for 10 years of a lease, is Dr. Prakash' interest in carbon dioxide recycling.

***
Wrapping up review of Page 2, before resuming with page 318 ...

Print ISBN: 978-3-527-33803-0
ePDF ISBN: 978-3-527-80565-5
ePub ISBN: 978-3-527-80567-9
oBook ISBN: 978-3-527-80566-2

That oBook term is new to me ... it might refer to "Oral" ...

Google fought me tooth and nail for a while, but eventually found a reference to "oBook"

Onda OBook ... This may be a false alarm but I'll investigate ... This appears to be a physical computer of some kind ...

This looks promising ...

OBOOK Inc. | LinkedIn
www.linkedin.com › company › obook-inc
OBOOK Inc., established in Late 2010, is a company dedicated in Books and Mobile Commerce. We launched OBOOK App in June, 2012 and was selected as hot new ...

OBOOK Holdings Inc. - Wiki | Golden
golden.com › wiki › OBOOK_Holdings_Inc.-8APXKXZ
OBOOK Holdings Inc. is a company founded by Darren Wang. ... Type: Web page. OBOOK. www.linkedin.com. https://www.linkedin.com/company/owlting-usa/about/.

OK ... oBook ** seems ** to be a competitive format to eBook ....

I've invested enough time on it. If someone runs across additional information please post it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-05 13:20:41

Amazon (and presumably the authors) have been generous in their preview offering...

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

The preview includes the entire table of contents and the set of definitions of terms.

The preface and author biographies are included.

Nice!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-07 11:49:51

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
With the above as a starting point, and with the assurance of the present authors as reliable guides into an unfamiliar terrain, I'm planning to begin development of a vision for a practical, achievable wealth creation and distribution system for planet Earth.

The basis of my confidence in this vision is the known energy potential of the atomic nucleus, as compared to electron shells that have sustained us directly so far. Of course, fusion in the Sun is the source of almost all the chemical energy flows we enjoy on Earth today.

We have authors in the forum who think in terms of multiple Gigawatts of power delivered by a single installation. For me such a vision is a fantasy. For them it may be quite realistic, because they may see themselves as able to marshal the financial and human resources to build, to operate and to secure constant flows of customers to sustain such large entities.

I find the prospect of being able to lease a 1 Megawatt reactor for 10 years, from a reliable provider who takes care of ALL the details for me, much more reasonable. I can imagine being able to find customers for such a reactor, and to secure the legal and financial advice I would need to set up and manage a small business built around this asset.

What is more to the point, I believe that many thousands of fellow Americans are perfectly capable of managing an asset of this class with success.

The lesson constantly drilled home by Dr. Lewis Dartnell (Knowledge Forum) is that we humans have managed to over complicate our collective lives, so that we are vulnerable to system failure. The best way that ** I ** can see to address our present vulnerability is to divide responsibility for energy inputs over a wide population, so that failure at one location does not impact the system as a whole.

To conclude this post, I'll quote the authors from page 340:

We have discussed thus far the production of methanol from fossil fuels and biosources. When fossil fuels or for this reason any carbon-containing natural or synthetic product, including methanol, are combusted, they produce CO2 and water.

It is the purpose of this topic to attempt to see a way to produce methanol from CO2 and water, using only the energy from a 1 Megawatt reactor, leased for 10 years, as the moving force.

Along the way, the entire environment within which this concept may flourish must be considered. There must be at least one major provider of reactors for lease, and I would prefer to see a minimum of three, in accordance with the generally accepted best practice of procurement in the United States.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-09 09:34:04

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

The great challenge, which is of increasing significance, is to reverse this process so as to produce - efficiently and economically by chemical regenerative conversion, i.e. recycling - fuels, synthetic hydrocarbon and products and materials from CO2 and water.

The authors are likely to be addressing the challenge they describe, in the pages ahead. However, as I look on the scene, the challenges go far beyond the scope of engineers or chemists, to the whole of human civilization. We (humans) have quietly and quite effectively painted ourselves into a corner, and while there would appear to be an escape hatch in the ceiling, that escape hatch will forever (or for a ** very ** long time) be limited to a very lucky few.

The ** real ** challenge, as I see it, is to (somehow) find a way to persuade literally billions of people to accept atomic energy as a daily presence in their lives. If the (human race) is going to be expanding into the Solar System and (hopefully) beyond, it ** must ** not only master atomic energy on the part of a few elite individuals, but convincingly on the part of the vast majority of people.

This can ONLY happen through the agency of education, but even that must await a change of attitude in the leaders of the various groups on Earth today.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-09 10:45:51

Methanol offers a lot of benefits as an end use fuel, especially in small power applications. Direct methanol fuel cells in the 1-10kw range can operate with an efficiency of 40%, which is roughly double what can be achieved with ICEs in that size range. And there are no moving parts other than pumps. This is beneficial for small off grid generators and especially hybrid electric vehicles. Even though methanol has only half the energy density of diesel, the fuel tank volume will be comparable for a hybrid battery electric / DM fuel cell vehicle.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-09 11:24:58

For Calliban re #8

Thank you for support of this topic! There might be some synergy to be obtained, if an initiative to provide 1 MW reactors to thousands of small businesses were combined with an initiative to encourage development of vehicles (and other systems) that can run on methanol.

***
To all .... if anyone else can contribute examples of existing (or even reasonably feasible) machines that run on Methanol, please do so.

If someone reading this is NOT already a member of the forum, please read Post #2 of Recruiting. Expect some vetting.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-10 09:22:07

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Nature, via photosynthesis, captures CO2 through trees, green plants, crops, etc, from the air and converts it with water, using the Sun's energy and chlorophyll as the catalyst, into new plant life.

Elsewhere in the forum, Louis has reported finding reports of research into artificial photosynthesis. If that is possible, then presumably the middleman (plant life) can be omitted from the process.

In the mean time, we have plenty of CO2 available in the air to be captured and processed with water to release oxygen and deliver hydrocarbons. It is ** that ** process that (I am hoping) will be the focus of this book by Olah, Goeppert and Prakash.

Elsewhere in the forum, Calliban is leading discussion of nuclear power as a solution to the energy requirements of nearly 8 billion people on Earth today, let alone the needs of billions more who (I trust) will spread out through the Solar System in years to come.

I am proposing to describe a way that humans could organize (ourselves) so that human needs are met with abundant energy.

In order for this to happen, the natural tendency of (almost all) humans to nurture selfishness must be overcome by deliberate and intentional development of generosity. Generosity comes more easily (it is my observation) to humans who have enough material resources so they feel emboldened to share some of whatever they have, but it is clear that for some individuals, overwhelmed with the natural tendency to selfishness, having abundance does NOT lead to an impulse to share with others. Instead, it would appear, such crippled individuals seem to want to accumulate more of whatever they see and much they cannot.

In moving forward, it would seem helpful to sideline such selfish individuals, and to promote those who are generous.

With that thought in mind, I am attempting to imagine a future in which every person born into the community on Earth receives a token good for a megawatt of energy. During early years, such tokens cannot be trusted to parents or anyone else in the local tribe, because for so many, the temptation to appropriate that which has been granted to others is strong, and the self-discipline required to demonstrate admirable behavior is weak or absent.

To the best of my knowledge, such a future has not been imagined before, but the world is large, and human history extends back for thousands of years, so this may indeed NOT be the first attempt to design such a future.

If there is some who chances across this soliloquy, and would like to provide examples of similar thinking in past eras or even the present one, please read Post #2 of Recruiting.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-10 10:22:18

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bigg … 33940.html

David R Baker and Naureen Malik
Tue, August 10, 2021, 10:00 AM
(Bloomberg Markets) -- The decision that could open the floodgates to renewable power across much of the eastern U.S. came in early July after months of closed-door haggling within an organization many Americans don’t know exists.
PJM Interconnection LLC runs the country’s biggest electricity grid, a vast web of wires spanning parts of 13 states from the Jersey Shore to the Mississippi River and covering much of coal country. Its low profile is a measure of its success. PJM prides itself on keeping the lights on at a time when blackouts have plagued power grids in California and Texas, sometimes with deadly results.

But the July decision, aided by the Biden administration’s regulatory support, looks set to give the climate advocates a boost. The result could be a massive buildout of offshore wind on the Atlantic Coast, from Virginia north. That would not only revamp PJM’s entire system, but it could also dethrone natural gas as the country’s No. 1 power plant fuel by 2028, according to Morgan Stanley analyst Stephen Byrd. About 27,000 megawatts of offshore wind—roughly the capacity of 27 nuclear reactors—are being planned, and 33% of that is in PJM territory, he says. Renewables’ share of U.S. power production will go from 10% this year to 27% by 2030.

Baker and Malik cover power and renewable energy for Bloomberg News in San Francisco and New York, respectively.
More stories like this are available on bloomberg.com
Subscribe now to stay ahead with the most trusted business news source.
©2021 Bloomberg L.P.

It's pretty clear this organization and others like it will have a ** lot ** to say about small nuclear reactor deployment.

An obvious alternative is to select installation sites where there ** is ** no utility power, and act legally to block any entity from attempting to force utility power into the location.

On the other hand, Texas (mentioned in the article) may be a perfect match for the SNR concept.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-11 08:57:39

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of two closely related sentences:

Thus, plant life replenishes itself by recycling atmospheric CO2. The difficulty is that the natural conversion of plant life into fossil fuels is a very long process, taking many millions of years.

In the context of the chapter, it would seem reasonable to suppose the authors will eventually describe processes that take less than millions of years.

The current topic, about manufacture of mehanol from CO2 and water, is part of a much larger concept I am attempting to visualize.

The Earth has provided a (generally) nurturing environment (a nest) for humans, and we are rapidly doing everything we collectively can to foul it.

In particular, we have succeeded in disturbing the natural flow of fresh water from the surface of the oceans from which it is delivered by arrival of photons at the surface that stimulate individual water molecules to liberate themselves from their peers in order to waft gently up into the atmosphere.

Nature has been gathering all those water molecules and distributing them more or less at random to locations on the surface, in quantities that may or not be convenient, and at rates that may or may not be convenient.

There is a time worn jingle in the United States, to the effect that "everyone talks about but no one can do a thing about ... the weather".

I am proposing a forthright attitude that humans not only ** can ** but **must** address deficiencies of the natural water production and distribution methods provided by Nature all these millennia.

This morning, in another topic, I posted a link to a report about Switzeland shutting down a nuclear fission reactor that has operated safely and reliably for 50 years. The article reports the (in my opinion) unseemly crowing of the short-sighted citizens of Switzerland who oppose nuclear power.

In order to replenish the supplies of fresh water needed to sustain the snow pack on its mountains, Switzerland needs vast amounts of nuclear power, and certainly should NOT be shutting down the reliable services it already has.

However, there may be an opportunity in this apparent foolishness...

The Swiss who've developed and operated 5 plants for many decades clearly and obviously know that they are doing.

While that cadre still exists, it ** could ** tackle the larger opportunity to help to address the problem of needing fresh water to be generated and supplied to customers world wide in quantities and at rates that are both convenient and timely.

However, for ** that ** to happen, something astonishing would have to happen ... at least **one** individual in Switzerland would have to see the opportunity, and develop consensus sufficient to create a plan of action, and to put it into motion.

Whoever can supply fresh water to the citizens of Earth when and where it is needed in the quantity and quality that is needed, will be in position to earn a modest income from each transaction.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-12 10:52:49

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of three closely related sentences:

Of course, as discussed, plant life reforms itself in annual and short cycles. In the form of biomass, it can be collected and processed to synthetic hydrocarbon fuels and products. In any event, the scope of the utilization of this natural carbon dioxide cycle compared with mankind's needs has limits.

With these words, we might suppose the authors have concluded their homage to Nature's achievements and practices. Hopefully it will not be long before they begin to build a case for synthetic processes to take in CO2 and water and deliver useful hydrocarbons.

The larger picture within which the procedure to take in CO2 and water to make fuels and chemical precursors for products remains to be more clearly explored. Over the eons, humans have done an extraordinarily poor job of organizing themselves for the general welfare.

Right now, in late 2021 of the generally accepted Earth calendar, warring tribes are killing each other and countless innocent parties for no good reason. There are reasons, no doubt. I offer the point of view that ** none ** of those reasons are ** good ** ones.

The theme of which this topic is a part derives from an initiative by Calliban, to show that nuclear fission has the potential to meet existing human needs with a comfortable buffer for unexpected challenges such as climate change and disease. I am less confident of the ability of ** any ** source of abundant energy to survive the misbehavior of human beings, either individually or in numbers.

In another topic, the potential value of an asteroid called "Psyche" is in discussion. A writer who was reporting on the potential of Psyche, based upon preliminary study of recent observations, offered for amusement purposes the prospect that the value of Psyche might be distributed equally among the population of Earth. While the writing was (no doubt) intended for amusement of the intended audience, I am picking up on it as a reflection of an ideal that could happen, if we humans chose to organize ourselves so that it ** can ** happen.

At present, a very small number of individuals will organized themselves to seize this asset and return parts of it to Earth to achieve the maximum possible benefit for themselves.

That has ** always ** been the pattern on Earth. Why would anyone suppose human nature is going to change because the venue is away from Earth.

The example of the United States, in declining the natural impulse to claim the Moon for itself, and instead to proclaim the Moon as for "All Mankind" is encouraging, but it may turn out to have been a brief flash in the pan of altruism.

The theme of ** this ** topic, in conjunction with the work of Calliban in his Nuclear is Safe topic, is to attempt to identify and to record the steps that are needed and the policies that are needed to insure that thousands and potentially millions of small businesses on Earth can lease small 1 Megawatt nuclear reactors for 10 years, while a minimum of three larger entities manage all the risks associated with harnessing atomic power on a global scale.

This topic, in particular, will seek to explore how such a steady reliable source of power might be enlisted to manufacture methanol, and how that product can be exchanged with others in the marketplace to insure production of needed products and services for all.

It is understood that in any tribe, a few hunters and gatherers provide sustenance for all. So it will always be. In planning for a global culture of abundance, it is necessary for those who are mentally and psychologically capable of managing flows of energy and materials, and human thought and labor, to so so at a rate that insures all in society are provided for.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-12 16:38:52

On Earth, a big part of the problem with the idea of a methanol economy, is finding reliable sources of carbon that serve as feedstock without contributing to atmospheric CO2 emissions. One must either capture CO2 from the atmosphere and then release it again and then reduce it to CO, using a great deal of energy, or let nature to do the job for us. Plants have the useful quality of self replicating using solar energy, fixing carbon as biomass in a chemically reduced form. This is much more energetically favourable than attempting to do the whole job of capturing and then reducing CO2 using hydrogen.

The key to a methanol economy is to produce biomass (the form is almost irrelevant) which can then be dehydrated, heated and to undergo pyrolysis (to produce some methanol, acetic acid and tar). The residue will be charcoal, which can then be partially burned to carbon monoxide. The CO then reacts with hydrogen to yield methanol over a nickel catalyst:

CO + 2H2 = CH3OH

Nuclear energy can provide the hydrogen needed for methanol synthesis, ammonia synthesis (to produce the fertiliser to grow the biomass), thermal energy to dehydrate and pyrolyse the biomass and maybe even the water needed to grow the biomass. In this way, bio-methanol production can make use of land that is generally not suitable for food crop production. If algae biomass can be grown in salty water (I.e in lagoons) this would be better still. Microalgae can be pumped into centrifugal chambers, where excess water is removed. The sludge can then be transfered to pyrolysis chambers where heating would take place.

To create a lagoon that is suitable for algae production, select a shallow area of sea or coast with good solar constant. Use dredging to surround the selected area with sand banks, isolating it from the sea. Use dredged sand to divide the cultivated area into a raceway, such that nutrients can be injected at one end and algae rich water extracted at the other.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-12 16:51:34)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 14:22:16

For Calliban re #14

Thank you for your contribution to this topic!

Your review of processes for making Methanol from biological feed stocks are covered in pages 1 through 339 of "Beyond Oil and Gas:"

While you recommended the book to me, I get the impression you neither own nor read it.

If you acquire the book, you will find that on page 340, the authors tackle the meat of the problem, which is production of Methanol from CO2 and water.

While all the preceding text in the book is no doubt interesting to a college student required to study the material as part of a course, it has nothing to do with the development of this topic, which is to discover/learn how to invest nuclear energy in production of Methanol from atmospheric CO2 and water.

Indeed, the posts immediately ahead of this one discuss the very subject you have raised, and in post #13, we see that the authors have disposed of that ancient way of doing things, as they prepare the reader for the adventure that lies ahead.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 14:27:23

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of just one sentence:

As a solution, we must therefore develop our own technological carbon dioxide recycling processes to achieve this goal within the required extremely short time scale.

As the (most welcome) post by Calliban reminds us, the tendency to think only of historical processes for dealing with CO2 is strong in the population of humans on Earth. Indeed, I would imagine that very few indeed are aware there is an alternative. This topic is intended to follow the lead of Olah, Goeppert and Prakash wherever it may lead, confident they have thoroughly explored the trail that lies ahead, and indeed, have constructed and are operating a facility that does exactly what this topic is set up to discover.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-14 11:22:02

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of just one (rather long) sentence:

A promising new approach is to convert CO2 chemically by catalytic or electrochemical hydrogenative methods to methanol or DME and subsequently to synthetic hydrocarbons and products using hydrogen obtained from water electrolysis or other cleavage methods.

In this single sentence we can see the structure of this topic as I am hoping it will unfold over weeks and months ahead.

There are some who are obsessed with efficiency, and concern about efficiency makes sense when we are trying to heat our homes and power our vehicles with the energy supplied by a candle.

Concerns about efficiency make no sense (to me at least) if we are right next to a river of flowing energy like the Mississippi River in the United States, the Amazon in South America, or the Volga in Russia.

We humans ** are ** right next to massive flows of energy produced by the Sun, and precious little is being harnessed.

We've made good progress in consuming a reservoir of chemical energy stored up for us by Nature over millions of years.

We've made ** little ** progress in consuming atomic energy stored up for us by Nature over billions of years.

This topic would seek to combine a robust enlistment of atomic power, with the synthetic production of useful chemical energy carriers from atmospheric CO2 and water, to eliminate the consumption of the chemical feedstocks that remain.

Hydrocarbons in particular should NEVER be burned for something as ephemeral as heating or transportation. Every molecule should be saved for use as a lubricant or as a feedstock for useful liquids or solids for manufacture of goods.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-15 13:16:30

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of just one sentence and a chemical expression. Unfortunately, the version of bbcode implemented by FluxBB lacks subscript.

Chemists have known since the early twentieth century how to convert CO2 and H2 to methanol[672]
CO2 + H2 >>Catalyst>> CH3OH+H20 (Delta)H(subscript(298K)) = - 11.9 kcal mol to the -1

There it is! The expression that is the focus of the section of the book from Page 340 on ...

At the end of this process (of study of the text) it might be hoped that the reader will have learned how to create a viable business able to join thousands of other productive enterprise on Earth.

The input is nuclear power, and CO2 from air along with Hydrogen from water. The output is Methanol ready for sale to the highest bidder.

There's a *** long *** journey between here and there.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-15 13:20:36

In recognition of the reference (672) cited in Post #18 above...

Asking Google:

Shop book concepts of modern catalysis and kinetics chorkendorff
Google found:
Fundamental Concepts in Heterogeneous Catalysis
$95.57
Amazon.com
Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics by I. Chorkendorff, J. W. Niemantsverdriet (9783527332687)
$94.76
Blackwell's
Concepts Of Modern Catalysis And Kinetics Hardcover I. Chorkendorff
$12.48
Used
eBay
Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics by I. Chorkendorff - New - 3527332685 by Wiley & Sons, Incorporated, John | Thriftbooks.com
$109.79
Thriftbooks.com
Fundamental Concepts in Heterogeneous Catalysis (Hardback) - 9781118888957 - 1118888952
$60.06
Used
Textbooks.com

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-16 04:21:12

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re #14
Thank you for your contribution to this topic!
Your review of processes for making Methanol from biological feed stocks are covered in pages 1 through 339 of "Beyond Oil and Gas:"
While you recommended the book to me, I get the impression you neither own nor read it.
If you acquire the book, you will find that on page 340, the authors tackle the meat of the problem, which is production of Methanol from CO2 and water.
While all the preceding text in the book is no doubt interesting to a college student required to study the material as part of a course, it has nothing to do with the development of this topic, which is to discover/learn how to invest nuclear energy in production of Methanol from atmospheric CO2 and water.
Indeed, the posts immediately ahead of this one discuss the very subject you have raised, and in post #13, we see that the authors have disposed of that ancient way of doing things, as they prepare the reader for the adventure that lies ahead.
(th)

I have a copy and have read it. But it was an earlier version from 15 years ago. It has been a while since I read it. So there will be a lot that I have forgotten.

My point was that it will always be energetically cheaper to begin with biomass, gassify it to syngas and then add supplemental electrolysis derived hydrogen to the syngas, rather than attempting to capture and chemically reduce CO2 to methanol, providing all of the hydrogen needed to do that and all of the energy needed to capture the CO2. Nature can do part of the job for us. This does of course present volume limitations on the amount of methanol that can be produced, as productivity is limited by the rate of carbon capture in biocrops. But electrolysis derived hydrogen is expensive unless electricity is very cheap. So a hybrid process using biomass as feedstock will be cheaper unless we can get electricity costs down to something like $0.01/kWh. I think that would be difficult even with mass produced modular reactors.

Fossil fuels are a tough act to follow. Huge stores of chemical energy, whose only cost is that needed to dig them out of the ground. Even unconventional oil and gas are tough competitors for fuels that we have to manufacture from scratch. If we do find large fossil methane deposits on Mars, it will have huge implications for the cost of plastics, rocket fuel and probably steel as well. Finding such deposits is important for reasons that go far beyond scientific interest in the search for life. The first Mars base should not be too far from where we suspect that methane may be coming from.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-16 04:38:03)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-16 06:16:22

For Calliban re #20

Thank you for the (to me encouraging) news that you have the earlier edition of the book, and that you thought well enough of the author's work to recommend it. I am grateful to have this valuable resource as a guide, and hope I have the sustained energy and focus to follow the trail so carefully laid out.

It is good to have the historical perspective in mind, but it must be released to pasture.

This topic is resolutely intended to drive toward nuclear power as the energy source for production of methanol. There have been numerous posts in this forum and elsewhere, affirming that there is on the order of 1,000,000 times more energy in nuclear power than is available in chemical bonds. I have seen estimates that there may be as much as 20,000,000 times more energy available.

It is time (in my opinion) to give the masters of chemical stores their due (civilization to be succinct) and to move on to the next stage of human evolution.

Later today, I plan to continue working from "Beyond Oil" in a methodical, step by step examination of the work needed to move from an idea of an abundant distribution of energy to an entire population, to the successful implementation of that vision.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-16 06:45:58

Fission of a single 239Pu nucleus (which is bred from 238U) releases 207.1MeV of energy, of which 200MeV is recoverable (some 7.1MeV is lost to neutrino emissions).
https://www.nuclear-power.com/nuclear-p … m-fission/

200MeV =3.2E-11 Joules.

0.238kg of 238U contains 6.023E23 atoms and will release some 19.27E12 Joules when converted to plutonium 239 and fissioned. 1kg of 238U will release some 80.98E12 Joules through fission. 1kg of bituminous coal will release some 24-35MJ of heat through complete combustion. Taking the higher value, 1kg of 238U will contain 2.3million times as much energy as 1kg of coal.

To put it another way, a piece of uranium the size of a golf ball contains as much energy as a cube of coal 12m aside, about the height of a 4 storey building. The equivalent tank of oil would have about the same volume. A 1000MWe nuclear reactor, large enough to power a city of 1-2million people, will fission some 1,168kg of uranium each year. Over a 60 year life, it will consume some 70 tonnes of uranium, about 3.3m3 of uranium metal. We could produce all of the electricity consumed by the US each year, using some 17m3 of uranium, a cube 2.6m aside - about the height of an average living room. Three of those cubes would provide all of the energy used for all applications.

It is truly astounding how energy dense uranium is, especially in closed fuel cycles. I often marvel at the fact that all of the electricity consumed by an average Western European in an 80 year lifetime, could be produced from a lump of uranium the size of a penny (roughly the same size as a cent). Two or three of those pennies could provide all the energy he ever needs, including transport and heating. Such is the energy density of fissile fuels. We are unlikely to encounter a more energy dense fuel in the future, short of discovering a hoard of antimatter.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-16 07:08:22)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-16 07:21:00

For Calliban re #22

Thank you for this helpful reminder of the significance of atomic energy in the present undertaking.

SearchTerm:Uranium compared to coal or oil with examples see Post #22
SearchTerm:Compare atomic to chemical stored energy see Post #22 (1:2,300,000)

Taking the higher value, 1kg of 238U will contain 2.3million times as much energy as 1kg of coal.

Within the past few days I noticed a flicker of information about a study/book? that (I got the impression) was about the very subject of this topic, which is to replace all fossil fuel with atomic energy. Unfortunately, I did not make a note of the reference, but if another member with posting privileges happens across the reference, please let us know.

The hint I picked up from the teaser was that the study/book? covers both the upside and drawbacks of such a situation.

In actual fact, that scenario is quite likely to be ** exactly ** what the bulk of the (practical) citizens of Mars are likely to enjoy.

There will no doubt be a few locations on Mars where idealists try to set up shop with solar panels, but every realistic study of life on Mars I have seen so far resolutely faces up to the reality of dependence on atomic power.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-16 07:32:58

Indeed. Solar power will have uses in small power applications, where a grid linkage is impractical due to distance and the amount of power consumed is too small to warrant a nuclear power source. So I would anticipate applications for solar power. It just isn't suited to providing GW of power on a planet with only 43% of Earth solar flux and where humans need far more power to survive.

In the slightly longer term, we have discussed options for using a fission-trigger for IC fusion power. This may turn out to offer better long-term prospects than fission, as there is no decay heat and very little fission product residues to contend with. But we have to start with what we've got and what we already know how to build.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-16 09:45:15

The preface below is planned for the opening of each post in this topic, to save readers time, if they would like to review key opening posts.

Post #1: Opening of topic dedicated to this book:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p183277
Post #2: Preview of Coming Attractions
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p183278
Post #3: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p183322
Post #4: Authors (continued)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 23#p183323
Post #5: Link to Amazon display of table of contents
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-M … =4&depth=1

Today's post is inspired by Page 340 Section 13.2 Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol

There is a reference given at the bottom of the first paragraph [672]

[672] Chorkendorff, I. and Niemantsverdriet, J.W. (2007). Concepts of Modern Catalysis and Kinetics. Weinheim: Wiley.

***
From page 340:

Today's quote consists of just one sentence...

In fact, some of the earliest methanol plants operating in the 1920s and 1930s in the United States were commonly using CO2 obtained as by-products of fermentation processes, for methanol production [317, 318]

Reserved for Reference 317
Found on Biblio.com

Methanol Technology And Application In Motor Fuels
By Paul, J.K., Editor
USEDHARDCOVER
Condition
UsedGood
ISBN 10
0815507194
ISBN 13
9780815507192
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BookDepart
Seller rating:This seller has earned a 4 of 5 Stars rating from Biblio customers.
Shepherdstown, West Virginia
30-Day Return Guarantee

Reserved for Reference 318
Found on https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6503009

OTHER AVAILABILITY
Please see Document Availability for additional information on obtaining the full-text document. Library patrons may search WorldCat to identify libraries that hold this book.

The discussion of production of Methanol from CO2 and O2 is a small part of the process of achieving "organizational change" on a global scale.

The end point I am defining is sufficient abundance to provide the equivalent of 1 Megawatt of energy as a birth right of every person born into the population of Earth. The possibility exists that there might be some humans who resent the idea of providing abundance to every citizen, regardless of their station in life. I'm interested in looking beyond such psychological hangups, to seeing the benefits of ample supplies of goods and services sufficient to provide a comfortable life, from which individuals can stretch to their capabilities.

My working assumption is that the vast majority of persons born on Earth are generous and helpful, and would make contributions to society if their circumstances were so to permit. There are (no doubt) a few individuals born with genetic traits that impel them to lives of crime or worse, but a generous society should be able to find ways of keeping such individuals from harming themselves or others.

(th)

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