Potential Multi-World Future

Void · 2021-02-21 10:46:27

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Potential Multi-World Future
I have decided to post today in a manner which will suit my purposes.
My title may be "Potential Multi-World Future". That being under Terraforming, gives me a lot of lattitude to be a "Busybody Thinker".
I can't fish up the article again, but I read one that said the two are Busybody, and Hunter. On this site these clash, as a hunter seems to want to drill down deep into a specific topic, where a Busybody, is able to cross connect many diverse things, which in some cases would fail, and make a mess, or in some cases produce a new item worth looking into further. I don't like labeling myself as a busybody, but will settle for it just now.
I choose Terraforming & (Paraterraforming), as it does not get much looser that that on this site.
On Paraterraforming. One version of that is domes on a world like Mars, while you do what you can to improve the overall Martian environment, from a humans point of view.
The word dome is to some degree a magical word. Not all that much unlike Harry Potter, with magical words, which are useful in their place. I certainly enjoyed those movies. In technology or science, however, it is a place holder for a need to drill down and actually create a useful device. It is often skipped over, and assumed that it should be available and reliable, simply because the word "Dome" was said. Doing that allows other parts of the problem to be solved, which can be useful, but sooner or later you have to actually create a version of "Dome", that will improve human conditions on other worlds or around other worlds.
We might prefer to use the word "Enclosure", as it would be a word that contain many types of device which may have a modified environment within.
Enclosure technology, needs to exist on all the planets and in the orbits, that humans and their machines may be involved in.
So, the word Enclosure, includes "Glass Domes" on Mars that Elon Musk and others have said, and also, orbital habitats that Jeff Bezos have said.
So, this topic attempts to be "42".
This topic may inlude, Earth + Moon / Mars + Phobos + Deimos / Ceres + other small worlds Asteroid Belt, and maybe Trojans, and Jupiter Moons. But is not limited by that list. I expect all of these collections of worlds to be paraterraformed to some degree in the future.
The placement of this topic here is to a certain degree redundant, because there are other similar topics, but those have various impediments, to full development.
So, by the wordings I have produced above any use of Enclosure Technology, is a form of Paraterraforming, and so best belongs in the Terraforming section. I seek to join orbital enclosures with the objects they are most associated with, and assert that it is really very similar to building Enclosures on a worlds surface or sky, and so are as worthy as they are.
If I speak of Partaterraforming Mars, that does not exclude conversation about orbital enclosures and enclosures inside of moons.
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I am very excited about the technologies that I see comming, that may be assistive and/or vital, for the Paraterrafomation of the worlds that can be reached.
I note the;
-SpaceX machines.
-Vulcan/Dreamchaser.
-New Glen.
I want to see all of them prosper. I read that the Europeans may adopt the Dreamchaser, we will see. And of course across the planetary polical line, it if obvious that others will be comming up with great things.
I wonder about some things, like might SpaceX provide assistance for someone else to build a tail landing mini-starship, and would anyone be interested in that.
The Dreamchaser is interesting, as it is somewhat Shuttle as it should have been perhaps, but it is almost for sure for the Earth alone, at least for now.
In case I did not convey my intentions here, I am not looking for a two team sports match, where we say one thing is better than another, and call everything else loosers.
That seems to be an inborn human collective trait. It is useful on a sports field to satisfy such primal desires, but is not likely to be useful here.
So, to sum it up, I feel that a "Web of Worlds" is likely to occur, and is superior to simply trying to do a Martian activity. I believe it will not drain away from Martian activities but supplement it. It will also keep more of the Earth's population interested in space for various reasons.
I do still support a sort of "Mars Direct" to start Mars up, so have not abandoned those who think that way, but am very intested in Voyager Station, as it is a real plan, not simply the use of the word "Dome". Those machines are intened also eventually to be sent to various places in the solar system. I support that so, I am not entirely in the Blue Origins camp either.
I guess the above is a fair foundation, and it will be rather hard for Hunter minds to bundle it up and shut down it's potential, with the "Off Topic" maneuver.
Maybe I will spell check, maybe I won't. Some part is being lazy, another part is to point out that the eyes and hands are very important, not just the mouth and ear. People of the mouth and ear, have far too much power by using spelling as a method to close down other methods of thinking. To be appointed by the annointed as the best and brightest. To constrain others as servants, who do not have the same types of intellegences as the verbals do. It is an annoyance. However the internet is changing that, removing some of their powers. But yes I can be lazy. But I did bother to post here.
I would rather go to the gym next than to spell check. Live with it. For a little while, I may make an effort to clean things up later.
Done.

louis · 2021-02-21 17:05:40

Hi Void -

Some interesting thoughts there.

It seems quite clear that lunar and Martian development will be linked. Once we have a secure home on Mars, we can examine the possibilities for some settlement on Ceres or the Moons of Jupiter and Saturn. Clearly, though it may take several decades, a complex solar system economy will develop.

For me Mars remains the prize, not least because - unlike the Moon - it is sufficiently far enough from Earth to guarantee human survival (unless a catastrophe is on some truly gargantuan, possibly galactic, scale).

I am enthusiastic about the possibilities of paraterraformation of Mars. It seems to me there will likely be a number of paraterraformed spaces:

1. I have often argued for ELEs (Earth Like Environments) to be created in natural or artificial gorges, glassed over and pressurised. These could be filled with Earth-based flora and fauna. Additional light could be focussed on the gorges using reflectors and light pipes. Paths for cyclists and walkers could be created with some entering into cave systems in the gorge walls. By these means, even a fairly small gorge could provide miles of paths for exploration. ELEs could be connected by tunnels, to further extend the exploratory range.

2. Can't recall who it was but someone here posted a proposal for large internal spaces - kind of galleries - that might continue for miles. They could be dug out using cut and cover techniques, and glass roofed over. Within these galleries you could have roadways for electric vehicles, houses, shops, offices and other buildings, plus parks and so on. This may well provide a more human-friendly zone for human living.

3. Domes - yes they could work well as natural focus points e.g. for retail centres.

4. Habs of all kinds but probably connected together so creating large internal spaces with many developing the feel of a major hub airport.

5. Recalling previous discussions, re farm domes, it seems that these could be made of plastics, and work at low pressure maybe 20% of Earth's atmosphere but near 100% CO2.

6. I and others have proposed the possibility of creating large zones where humans could walk in light space suits with breathing apparatus. We would be talking here about large areas being covered in plastic and lightly pressurised.

7. We could create large lakes where people could go scuba diving, with a series of pressurised observation points where people could surface to view their surroundings.

Void wrote:

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Potential Multi-World Future
I have decided to post today in a manner which will suit my purposes.
My title may be "Potential Multi-World Future". That being under Terraforming, gives me a lot of lattitude to be a "Busybody Thinker".
I can't fish up the article again, but I read one that said the two are Busybody, and Hunter. On this site these clash, as a hunter seems to want to drill down deep into a specific topic, where a Busybody, is able to cross connect many diverse things, which in some cases would fail, and make a mess, or in some cases produce a new item worth looking into further. I don't like labeling myself as a busybody, but will settle for it just now.
I choose Terraforming & (Paraterraforming), as it does not get much looser that that on this site.
On Paraterraforming. One version of that is domes on a world like Mars, while you do what you can to improve the overall Martian environment, from a humans point of view.
The word dome is to some degree a magical word. Not all that much unlike Harry Potter, with magical words, which are useful in their place. I certainly enjoyed those movies. In technology or science, however, it is a place holder for a need to drill down and actually create a useful device. It is often skipped over, and assumed that it should be available and reliable, simply because the word "Dome" was said. Doing that allows other parts of the problem to be solved, which can be useful, but sooner or later you have to actually create a version of "Dome", that will improve human conditions on other worlds or around other worlds.
We might prefer to use the word "Enclosure", as it would be a word that contain many types of device which may have a modified environment within.
Enclosure technology, needs to exist on all the planets and in the orbits, that humans and their machines may be involved in.
So, the word Enclosure, includes "Glass Domes" on Mars that Elon Musk and others have said, and also, orbital habitats that Jeff Bezos have said.
So, this topic attempts to be "42".
This topic may inlude, Earth + Moon / Mars + Phobos + Deimos / Ceres + other small worlds Asteroid Belt, and maybe Trojans, and Jupiter Moons. But is not limited by that list. I expect all of these collections of worlds to be paraterraformed to some degree in the future.
The placement of this topic here is to a certain degree redundant, because there are other similar topics, but those have various impediments, to full development.
So, by the wordings I have produced above any use of Enclosure Technology, is a form of Paraterraforming, and so best belongs in the Terraforming section. I seek to join orbital enclosures with the objects they are most associated with, and assert that it is really very similar to building Enclosures on a worlds surface or sky, and so are as worthy as they are.
If I speak of Partaterraforming Mars, that does not exclude conversation about orbital enclosures and enclosures inside of moons.
------
I am very excited about the technologies that I see comming, that may be assistive and/or vital, for the Paraterrafomation of the worlds that can be reached.
I note the;
-SpaceX machines.
-Vulcan/Dreamchaser.
-New Glen.
I want to see all of them prosper. I read that the Europeans may adopt the Dreamchaser, we will see. And of course across the planetary polical line, it if obvious that others will be comming up with great things.
I wonder about some things, like might SpaceX provide assistance for someone else to build a tail landing mini-starship, and would anyone be interested in that.
The Dreamchaser is interesting, as it is somewhat Shuttle as it should have been perhaps, but it is almost for sure for the Earth alone, at least for now.
In case I did not convey my intentions here, I am not looking for a two team sports match, where we say one thing is better than another, and call everything else loosers.
That seems to be an inborn human collective trait. It is useful on a sports field to satisfy such primal desires, but is not likely to be useful here.
So, to sum it up, I feel that a "Web of Worlds" is likely to occur, and is superior to simply trying to do a Martian activity. I believe it will not drain away from Martian activities but supplement it. It will also keep more of the Earth's population interested in space for various reasons.
I do still support a sort of "Mars Direct" to start Mars up, so have not abandoned those who think that way, but am very intested in Voyager Station, as it is a real plan, not simply the use of the word "Dome". Those machines are intened also eventually to be sent to various places in the solar system. I support that so, I am not entirely in the Blue Origins camp either.
I guess the above is a fair foundation, and it will be rather hard for Hunter minds to bundle it up and shut down it's potential, with the "Off Topic" maneuver.
Maybe I will spell check, maybe I won't. Some part is being lazy, another part is to point out that the eyes and hands are very important, not just the mouth and ear. People of the mouth and ear, have far too much power by using spelling as a method to close down other methods of thinking. To be appointed by the annointed as the best and brightest. To constrain others as servants, who do not have the same types of intellegences as the verbals do. It is an annoyance. However the internet is changing that, removing some of their powers. But yes I can be lazy. But I did bother to post here.
I would rather go to the gym next than to spell check. Live with it. For a little while, I may make an effort to clean things up later.
Done.

Void · 2021-02-21 17:38:51

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I appreciate that you responded Louis, and yes, all of those enclosures might be made real.
But I expand a bit more, where I anticipate that things like Voyager Station will at first be built only from Earth materials, and then to a significant extent from Lunar materials, and might then be flown to Mars or Ceres, where they would take on biological substances such as water and Carbon, ect.
The virtual labor force on the Moon would potentially be huge.
And as for Mars, yes, I support Mars direct for the beginning, but I also support large numbers of Enclosures in orbit.
I do not think that Mars should be kept hard scrabble any longer than is necessary, and that indeed the enclosures you suggest primarily on the surface would also be complemented by enclosures in orbit.
And I don't see any reason since Mars will be SSTO, why people could not migrate to many enclosures on and about Mars in their lifetimes.
And of course if you can do that for Mars, eventually then Ceres, and other places. No reason to think small, and no reason to have a binary conflict of Musk vs Bezos.
It is amusing in fact that the dreams of Bezos, might be lived out better for Mars, and its orbital enclosures, than for Earth/Moon.
Still a lot to learn though before a concrete plan can be mandated.
But for Mars, imagine that you had a home in the sky, where you could look out a window or display screen and see Mars below you. Operate equipment down there, and also visit down there. Imagine seas in orbit, imagine seas on the surface of Mars, of large size, where lighting makes it very valuable aquicultural farm land.
Before someone gets upset on that, I repeat, that I think that Mars direct is the way to get started on Mars. Oribital comes later.
I see no reason to limit imagination except that to make it reality actions will be necessary over time. Why settle for less of a dream? If you are going to dream, then dream big.
Done.

Calliban · 2021-02-22 06:24:56

I think that paraterraforming could begin relatively soon if Musk pushes ahead with his 1 million people colony plan. Now that we have established that Mars surface radiation imposes about the same risk as air pollution here on Earth, there is no compelling reason for settlers to live as troglodytes. The atmosphere is thick enough to protect the surface from micrometeorites that would pose a serious hazard on airless bodies. It also shields out the most dangerous heavy ion radiation from cosmic rays. What reaches low altitude regions on Mars is mostly protons, which have lower LET and low RBE and are therefore less of a problem to human health. So the planet surface is open to us.

Paraterraforming could be carried out using ETFE films, beneath a basalt fibre net, which would transfer tensile loads to basalt fibre ropes, which are anchored to steel piles driven ten or more metres beneath the surface. Initially, both ETFE and basalt fibre would be imported from Earth. However, it would soon make financial sense to start manufacturing these materials on Mars. First, we would import the plant needed to make steel piles and basalt fibre. Manufacture of ETFE would come later.

To build a self-sufficient settlement, manufacturing capability must be built up rapidly. On Earth, modern factories comprise portal frame structures with concrete floors, providing large two dimensional areas that permit easy material flow between machinery. On Mars, the same would be true. Factories would be built beneath ETFE canopies. The floors would be compressed clay, which would be Martian regolith fines, mixed with water and rolled flat to produce a floor with properties resembling concrete. We would focus initially on products that allow survival using native resources, such as air, water and food. Once these needs are met, the settlers would focus on developing engineering products that allow a degree of independence from expensive Earth imports. Ultimately, Mars has a substantial energetic advantage in the production of anything that is needed in Earth orbit. So there will be a priority given to manufacture of exports that can pay for expensive imports.

Industrial tents will be connected to residential tents by underground tunnels. The near vacuum of Mars would avoid any issues relating to noise pollution even from heavy manufacturing industry. Residential areas will contain towns most likely constructed from adobe, rammed soil, rock and fired clay tiles, using techniques like this.
https://www.notechmagazine.com/2011/12/ … -sudu.html
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/11 … aults.html
https://www.notechmagazine.com/2009/12/ … tects.html
https://www.notechmagazine.com/2013/03/ … aults.html

Initially at least, towns will be compact and pedestrian. Streets will be narrow and buildings probably 2-3 storey. With no rain fall, damp will not be a problem, so soil based building techniques, incorporating stone and tile where appropriate, will be the lowest cost method of building beneath the tent. Without the threat of rainfall, roof spaces would either domed or flat, with pot gardens and sitting areas on the roof.

The traditional architecture of Italy, North Africa and Arabia is probably a good representation of what Martian towns will be like. Without issues with rain or wind, the streets will be spillovers for merchants, restaurants and bars.
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/fez+morocco
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-phot … 1295580799
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-phot … -292150208
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/Verona

Some food production will take place in residential areas. However, most will be separated. A variety of algae and edible bacteria will be grown in farms consisting of plastic panels arranged on the Martian surface. These would provide both ingredients for various processed foods and also animal foods. Animals would be kept in separate tents, so as to minimise smell contamination to residential areas. Some food would be grown in long poly tunnels on the Martian surface.

As population pressures grow, larger areas of the Martian surface would be para terraformed in this way. With large areas covered with tents, the average temperature of the planet's surface would inevitably increase and atmospheric surface pressure would increase due to outgassing. I don't think there will actually be much of a driver towards open sky terraforming, given that paraterraforming using tents will eventually be able to provide habitable space quite cheaply and counter pressure suits will develop to the point that they are easy to don when ever outside work is needed. The global warming of Mars and thickening atmosphere may actually come to be viewed as a nuisance, as air resistance makes space launch more difficult and a thicker Martian atmosphere would support more dust, reducing surface insolation. Eventually, oxygen leakage from tents would accumulate in the Martian atmosphere. After many thousands of years, a heavily populated Mars would develop an oxygen atmosphere that could be thick enough to support surface life. By this point, waste heat from fusion reactors on the surface of Mars will have warmed the external environment to temperatures comparable to Earth. Again, this will be a side effect of human habitation, rather than a planned effect. A warmer surface will result in sublimation of water, which would break down under UV light to produce an oxygen atmosphere.

The open sky terraforming of Mars will be accidental. Warmer temperatures would result in flooding of low altitude northern regions that would likely be heavily populated. As this happens, Martian cities would need to move to higher ground. Eventually, population pressures and the rising cost of land will result in increasing proportiins of the Martian population living in high orbit in rotating habitats. These people will work in space based manufacturing and will sell products to Earth (whose own population will be moving out to colonies at L5) and the asteroid belt, where Belta Lowda will mine most of the materials used in Earth and Mars orbital industries.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-02-22 06:45:59)

Void · 2021-02-22 12:50:06

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Well I like that you gave this effort to this topic. I think that what you have presented may be of use in parts of Mars, particularly where there may not be substantial frozen ice in the ground on Mars.
It will need testing, against the conditions of part of Mars. I might think that if the water table exists at 750 meters, and it could be tapped, that material may be well worth a look.
I have recently had a further assesment of what I think might be possible. It is much bigger than just the surface of Mars.
I do still adhere to the notion of some type of "Mars Directa" method to get Mars started, especially since SpaceX seems to be working on it. Why propose anything else, if they are working to solve the problem this way?
What I will say will in part be along the lines of thinking of SpaceX, and in part not so much so.
I see no reason to settle for a little, when it is possible that we could have a lot more.
For SpaceX Starship, it appears to me, that it does not fill completely with propelants to go to Mars. To leave the surface of Mars and to then go to Earth, I believe that it has to be virtually full of propellants.
There have been no references that I am aware of for "Tanker" flights to Martian orbit. However, I think that it is already suggested that the Starship is somewhat a universal machine for much of the solar system.
I have the notion of two paths:
Mostly for Humans: Earth>Moon>Mars Surface>Mars Orbit> Ceres>???
Mostly for Machines: Earth>Moon>Mars Balistic Capture to orbit>Ceres>???
PLEASE NOTE: I want to make sure that people here don't get confused by the words "Ballistic Capture". It is not the same as the Ballistic deliveries that have been worked on of late. Look up "Ballistic Capture" if you are confused.
I will be a bit annoyed, if people try to circle what I am presenting back to what is already known. This happens alot. It can be useful, but I am trying to blow the doors off of what is already known and planned.
Outside of SpaceX activities, we have the activities of ULA and Blue Origins, and some others.
While I want SpaceX to do what they might concerning the Moon, it appears to me that with the Vulcan/Dreamchaser and the New Glen/??? (Moon stuff, based on New Shepard???), many good things may happen.
Rather than to waste time building up to it, my hope is that in conjuncion with outfits hoping to produce Voyager Station, there can be a developing trade network. At first devices are built from Earth materials, and then over time Lunar materials. Many of those to be shipped to Mars. At Mars, they are upgraded with local materials such as more water and Carbon. Also perhaps thermal and radiation shielding.
The business $$$ plan for this would be they producing the shells, and Mars upgrading them to be safe and livable, will have land to sell to Earthlings. This would be in the orbit of Mars.
As I see it, it is silly to limit human activities to the surface of Mars.
Beyond that we would hope to push human activities to Ceres and beyond, eventually.
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Part of this is for the purpose of sheltering humans from the "Lack of time latency". A "Big Brother" that can see all in real time is a threat to human individuality. It would dumb down the human race, and each "Cast" would only have fragments of intellegence, and none of them would be truely intellegent. Nature does not value intellegence, brains are expensive, and tricking nature is a trait that we should prefer in humans, in my opinion. Or would we prefer to have lions as our masters?
Say what you will. This topic is rather open, intended that.
Done.

Calliban · 2021-02-22 16:42:44

The problem I can see with paraterraforming on genuinely airless bodies is micrometeorites. Most micrometeorites that hit the Earth's atmosphere are dust particles from short period comets. These could have relative velocity of over 60km/s. This means that a rock fragment a little over a millimetre wide would release as much energy as a hand grenade if it were to impact the surface of the moon, say. As it passed through your polymer dome, it would hit dense atmosphere, creating a shock wave that would dramatically widen the entrance hole.

As you get further from the sun, the relative velocities decline as gravitational field strength of the sun falls off with the inverse square law. But so also do the potential benefits of transparent domes that allow allow sunlight into the habitat. On the moon, one also has to contend with the freezing temperatures during the 14 day night. All in all, it is probably best to build subsurface habitats, using the weight of overburden to balance internal pressure. In sufficiently large caverns, one could use LEDs in a glass ceiling to simulate a natural sky.

Void · 2021-02-22 19:50:18

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Caliban. Very good post. You are quite valuable to my needs. I am more and more a Light Emitting Device kind of person, as time goes by, for space agriculture, but........
Chevrons and other things shown for space windows:
http://www.quadibloc.com/science/spaint.htm---
Previously discussed on: "Index» Life support systems» "Chevron Shielding", borrowed from space habitat , adapted to Mars.".
These schemes may help with radiation shielding but also might be useful for micrometeroites.
For Ceres, I defer to this at this time:
https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
I have worked with Finns many times in my life. Pretty much good people, maybe to good for my likes. As you can see by the diagrams there would be some protection from impactors with their scheme.
So, I am rather shy about space elevators, but guess that Ceres would be the place to try it first.
Quote:

In principle, Ceres could support, Janhunen believes, 10,000 times Earth's current population.

Someday, perhaps Ceres or Vesta or some other objects will be "Shelled" over. That is a maybe.
Also encountered this in my search:
https://curiosityanddarkmatter.home.blo … he%20ocean.
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The objects that we might hope to get Nitrogen for space habitats from are Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Titan, Triton, Pluto,???? Maybe some other asteroids, but not so likely probably from some outer moons not mentioned.
For my "Topic" I decided to include Earth to Ceres, with a vague nod towards other small objects. I think these may be within the expected capabilities or space technology, say in the next 0-50 years. Venus will be a Nitrogen treasure, and also Titan and so, on, but Venus has a big gravity well, so I figure Nitrogen from Earth, Mars, and Ceres.
So, as I see it many synthetic gravity machines from Mars outward over time. For the Earth/Moon, some as well, as Nitrogen can come either from Earth, Venus, or Mars> eventually. But for this I see the best populations to be for Ceres and Mars in the near future few 0-200 years.
So, we have someones plan for Ceres. I am rather content with that. But why not Mars? In truth I do not see much of a future for a space elevator for Mars. But Skyhooks that capture CO2, Argon, and Nitrogen, look OK to me. Those then in part to be for space habitats. Some may be disturbed by extracting Nitrogen from Mars for this purpose. However Nitrogen is scarse on Mars as it is, and any surface life eventually installed will have to cope with that. For Enclosures....Err(Domes), you would be able to concentrate more Nitrogen. Also plants in Enclosures may not directly need Nitrogen, but Nitrogen fertalizers.
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Paraterraforming Mars:
I ran into this recently:
https://www.livescience.com/magnetic-fl … 0100013%29
Quote:

Another significant shift around that time was in Homo sapiens, with cave art beginning to appear in locations around the world. This included the first examples of red ochre hand stencils, "which we suspect is actually a sign of the application of sunscreen," a practice still seen in modern Indigenous groups in Namibia, Cooper said. Higher UV levels from a weak magnetic field could have driven humans to seek shelter in caves, or forced them to protect their skin with sunblocking minerals, he said.

I guess they are saying that the Ozone layer was damaged by the lack of magnetic protection. If that is true, then it may apply to Mars.
There is no promise, but I speculate that applying a artificial magnetic field to Mars, might not only help to restrain the loss of atmosphere, but might change the atmospheric chemistry, perhap even allowing an Ozone layer.
Mars is already likely habitable for Lichens, the only strong restraints I see for it is too much U.V. outside of protected cracks, and of course possibly toxic dust.
We have this on that topic:
https://www.astrobio.net/extreme-life/l … 0radiation.
This is why we want an international space effort, as although I am proud of my USA space effort, it is apparent that they cannot or will not conduct such research in the same ways as others.
So a magnetic field applied, would hold in atmosphere, and possibly allow an increase in air pressure. Also it may facilitate an Ozone layer (No proof on that). Also, if you have space habitats in orbit of Mars protected by that magnetic field, that could be helpful. For the places where humans would live in orbit, you would also want materials to block radiation in case of a shield failure.
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Solar Assembly Line:
I want people from Earth to manufacture parts for space habitats on the Moon. They would mostly participate by telepresence. A few humans on the Moon actually.
I then want methods to put those parts to orbit.
I then suggest that solar power and magnetic methods be used to propell the parts to Mars orbit. Much of the solar power and magnetic devices may be kept in orbit, to generate a magnetic field for Mars. The solar power might also be diverted to the surface to some extent to melt water, to form ice covered lakes and seas on the surface of Mars, and of course under the surface.
Ceres is after that just a no-brainer. Obviously a great place to expand to and also a base to get minerals from the asteroid belt, some may even migrate back to Earth.
Done for a while. Really pooped from the Gym and this posting effort.
Live with my spelling, I am tired.

Void · 2021-02-24 09:47:47

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This cought my eye. I have had prior exposure to part of the story.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 … s-too-soon
Quote:

The battery invented 120 years before its time

Way back when, Edison and Ford had a plan to have electric cars, and windmills to charge them. The electric storage in the car might also power some things in the house of the owner.
However, according to the book I read. When Edisons batteries were tested, it appears that it was purposely arranged that they would not be charged up prior to the test. Immediately their was an onslaut of negitive news about the Edison battery, and Ford pulled out.
Edisons labratories mysteriosly burned. He was too old to start over.
In a similar fashion, our advance electric train technology, was looted, and sent overseas to Europe and Japan, so that we could be mocked.
The electric trolly lines that would allow people to travel from Minnesota to the East coast were torn up, and Busses replaced them.
Just a bit of history, perhaps somewhat accurate. I think you can guess who wanted electric motors to go away. Not proven as a sinister plot, but lots of suspects.
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All that is behind. It is not that much worth cairing about at this point.
However the battery mentioned has factors that I think look good for space, and for Mars. Nickle/Iron, can generate Hydrogen, and is rather durable/long lasting. Certainly Nickle/Iron objects are available in parts of space such as the Asteroid belt and other places.
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In the process of chemosynthesis, for Mars and for spacecraft, it may not hurt to have electrical storage, and to be able to produce Hydrogen.
If humans exhale CO2, and you react it in a biochamber with Hydrogen, you output can be among other things CH4. And also biomass.
And of course CO2 is quite available in the Martian atmosphere.
And if you want Oxygen, then of course it may be that organisms that use sunlight and produce O2 may work out.
Done.

louis · 2021-02-24 16:12:09

There was a time (around 1910-1920) when coal fired steam, electric batteries and petrol/diesel/gas were kind of co-equal in the world of automobiles and trucks. In fact steam I think was winning out for trucks.

You can have electric trolley buses - London used to have a lot of them. In fact taking them out of service was one of the major contributors to London's notorious smogs of the 50s and early 60s as diesel buses were brought in.

I think a lot of choices have been made on the basis of convenience and flexibility which feed into lower costs.

I am optimistic about virtually all transport, including a lot of air transport switching to green energy electric power over the next couple of decades. Once more it will be as much to do with convenience and flexibility as anything else. If your car can charge itself up through induction coils in the road, that's convenient, not having to worry about running out of petrol/gas.

Void wrote:

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This cought my eye. I have had prior exposure to part of the story.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 … s-too-soon
Quote:
The battery invented 120 years before its time
Way back when, Edison and Ford had a plan to have electric cars, and windmills to charge them. The electric storage in the car might also power some things in the house of the owner.
However, according to the book I read. When Edisons batteries were tested, it appears that it was purposely arranged that they would not be charged up prior to the test. Immediately their was an onslaut of negitive news about the Edison battery, and Ford pulled out.
Edisons labratories mysteriosly burned. He was too old to start over.
In a similar fashion, our advance electric train technology, was looted, and sent overseas to Europe and Japan, so that we could be mocked.
The electric trolly lines that would allow people to travel from Minnesota to the East coast were torn up, and Busses replaced them.
Just a bit of history, perhaps somewhat accurate. I think you can guess who wanted electric motors to go away. Not proven as a sinister plot, but lots of suspects.
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All that is behind. It is not that much worth cairing about at this point.
However the battery mentioned has factors that I think look good for space, and for Mars. Nickle/Iron, can generate Hydrogen, and is rather durable/long lasting. Certainly Nickle/Iron objects are available in parts of space such as the Asteroid belt and other places.
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In the process of chemosynthesis, for Mars and for spacecraft, it may not hurt to have electrical storage, and to be able to produce Hydrogen.
If humans exhale CO2, and you react it in a biochamber with Hydrogen, you output can be among other things CH4. And also biomass.
And of course CO2 is quite available in the Martian atmosphere.
And if you want Oxygen, then of course it may be that organisms that use sunlight and produce O2 may work out.
Done.

Calliban · 2021-02-25 13:56:21

Electric rail transportation in its various forms is competitive with diesel on heavy routes, because lower motive energy costs of electricity offset the added capital and maintenance cost of the electrification equipment. One big advantage that electric trains have over other modes of transportation is their ability to draw power directly from the grid, without need for energy storage.

For electric cars, that advantage doesn't exist. Lithium ion batteries have an energy density of 1MJ/kg, versus 40MJ/kg for diesel. Tesla have managed to scrape a decent range by combining high energy density batteries, with a very light chassis and body and by squeezing the drag coefficient as low as it will go. This partially mitigates the overall problem: the crippling low energy density of the batteries. Even so, Tesla remains a rich man's toy, with an average sale price of $59,000.
https://insideevs.com/news/339100/avera … -at-59000/

It gets worse: Tesla's fast charging battery will show significant loss of charge after 1000 charge discharge cycles. So after a few years of moderately heavy use, you will need to trade that battery in. The bad news is that it is most of the cost of the car.

Electric aeroplanes will be useless for any flight longer than a few hundred km, due to the low energy-weight ratio of the batteries. Even factoring in the greater efficiency of electric motors compared to gas turbines, you are looking at a factor 16 lower energy density for batteries. When you factor in the increased weight of electric motors and the fact that conventional planes get lighter as they burn fuel, you can expect range to be reduced by a factor of 20. An airframe that could fly 10,000km with jet engines will make 500km, with the same payload and structural margins.

That said, I do agree with Louis that electric transport will play a more significant role in the future. He and I just have very different ideas of what that will look like.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail
https://www.britannica.com/technology/h … e-pipeline

Last edited by Calliban (2021-02-25 14:04:31)

louis · 2021-02-25 17:43:37

On road induction charging will reduce vehicle battery size and obviate the need for charging downtime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road#Cost

It would therefore reduce the cost of EVs, possibly making them competitive with or cheaper than ICE cars, particularly given the lower maintenance costs of EVs. It would also reduce tyre wear and thus reduce the pollution profile of EVs which are currently more polluting than you might expect because of tyre wear.It's a guess on my part but I would think you might be able to reduce battery size and weight by 80%.

Yes, there may be a little way to go in terms of technological development but it does seem to be practical already .

Calliban wrote:

Electric rail transportation in its various forms is competitive with diesel on heavy routes, because lower motive energy costs of electricity offset the added capital and maintenance cost of the electrification equipment. One big advantage that electric trains have over other modes of transportation is their ability to draw power directly from the grid, without need for energy storage.
For electric cars, that advantage doesn't exist. Lithium ion batteries have an energy density of 1MJ/kg, versus 40MJ/kg for diesel. Tesla have managed to scrape a decent range by combining high energy density batteries, with a very light chassis and body and by squeezing the drag coefficient as low as it will go. This partially mitigates the overall problem: the crippling low energy density of the batteries. Even so, Tesla remains a rich man's toy, with an average sale price of $59,000.
https://insideevs.com/news/339100/avera … -at-59000/
It gets worse: Tesla's fast charging battery will show significant loss of charge after 1000 charge discharge cycles. So after a few years of moderately heavy use, you will need to trade that battery in. The bad news is that it is most of the cost of the car.
Electric aeroplanes will be useless for any flight longer than a few hundred km, due to the low energy-weight ratio of the batteries. Even factoring in the greater efficiency of electric motors compared to gas turbines, you are looking at a factor 16 lower energy density for batteries. When you factor in the increased weight of electric motors and the fact that conventional planes get lighter as they burn fuel, you can expect range to be reduced by a factor of 20. An airframe that could fly 10,000km with jet engines will make 500km, with the same payload and structural margins.
That said, I do agree with Louis that electric transport will play a more significant role in the future. He and I just have very different ideas of what that will look like.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail
https://www.britannica.com/technology/h … e-pipeline

Void · 2021-02-28 10:48:05

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The last two posts were interesting, but I will navigate back towards the main topic.
Dr. Zubrin does not think much of synthetic gravity artificial worlds. I agree with him that if we are going to go to Mars, then go to Mars. Similar for the Moon.
However, I am rather enthusiastic about some kind of a dirivative of synthetic gravity worlds. Very many types.
What if you made one that was just metal, transparancies, water, and heat engine technology. One that could host Oxygen creating life at a low pressure and low spin. It would be an Oxygen generator, and a power source, and have an output of clean water. You could also minimize radiation protection as some kinds of Cyano Bacteria could deal with that.
I spared much effort in creating the following:

But, perhaps it is enough.
So, in this case I imagine a tin can with a mirror and window, and heat engines. The fluid water will exist in relatively small quantities as liquid spray against the inside of the walls. This will then evaporate. The method to generate electricity would be to have the heat engine take in the steam, and condense it so that it can heat another fluid which would remain fluid at much lower temperatures than water. The condensed water would be sprayed back into the container. Hopefully electricity generated.
The hab would have mimimal spin, very little radiation protection, and a rather low pressure.
If nutrients were supplied, then some photo-life could be conducted on the inside walls of the device.
This would be a pretty good companion device for Voyager Station type hardware I think.
I am going to offer this:
I would see us starting on the Moon after LEO. This does not prohibit Mars Direct activities ASAP, so don't get your shorts in a twist about that.
https://www.space.com/water-ice-moon-an … aters.html
So, we will see how much in time. But if alot, then it does make sense to manufacture habitat materials on the Moon with telepresence, at some point.
Those then somewhat wetted down, and some in Earth/Moon, and some Mars, and maybe some for Ceres.......
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Now don't get me wrong, eventually I see that their can be cylinders with entire seas in them possibly starting at Ceres and in the outer solar system. Some of those could be ice covered, so that the light porthole(s) can be of a lower pressure. Some of those might have air or water filled, chambers under the ice in the water.
On the other hand if you use internal lighting of some sort, some of these could like the tropics, with floating islands.
If you look at the bulk of materials available in the solar system, it makes sense to have lots of containers of water.
And of course you can have smaller cities with artificial light as well.
Done.

Void · 2021-03-01 19:00:29

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So, from the last post, it is apparent that we have the potential to make a spin gravity machine, or even a zero gravity machine, that can foster life and also generate power.
I am afraid I have to assert that this may be a step beyond what I am aware of that, has been considered.
I see no reason to not dream bigger.
I will certainly advance a set of notions at this point, as I have some feeling of strength for my position as will be expressed here.
So, if we find that the Moon has the necessary materials, per water, and indeed we do not kill off the human population of Earth, then we may contemplate enormous manufacture capabilities on the Moon and the ability to launch objects from the Moon. If the ground truth is less favorable we will need to adjust, maybe not have as much. But we will want to know what is real. We want that very soon.
And I suggest that we might consider manufacturing machines that can travel from the Earth/Moon subsystem to the Mars/Phobot/Deimos subsystem by solar wind.
So then a magnetic sailing method.
And once arrived in the Martian hill sphere, then machines that grow food, purify water, generate electricity, and can work in a concert of many to produce a magnetic field for Mars.
I do favor the Mars Direct method of Dr. Zubrin, and apparently SpaceX(Elon Musk).
But, and it is a big but, I then think that you leap up and have a orbital community as well. Ideally, most of the hardware for that will be manufactured in the Earth/Moon subsystem, and so will migrate to the Martian/Phobos/Deimos subsystem.
I have in mind a very agressive plan. Where we should then hope to generate a magnetic field for Mars, to protect the atmosphere, and suit our desires, the load for that task should be variable, and the need for complete protection not yet understood.
And so, what I have in mind is that these devices in orbit will also have the capability of projecting microwave energy, when the need for atmosphere shielding is lower than average, and that the primary purpose for that could be to lift water vapor into the highest parts of the Martian atmosphere, as a greenhouse gas.
Our greatest wishes per human acomodation would be to produce a expansion of Martian atmosphere, an Ozone layer, and that the CO2 ice of the ice caps will spend less and less time as part of the ice caps, and more time as atmosphere.
So, possibly we could have powerful tools to try to achieve these things, but we have a likeliyhood that we may need to settle for less as reality sets in against that method employed.
Let me drill down a bit and suggest how this might work. You have mid latitude ice bodies which are believed to actually exist. If you have an energy source, you may try to liquify them. This would produce ice covered lakes/seas. Then you boil the liquid and release it to Martian atmosphere. No return path required, so you get to boil water as hot as you can and release it to ~5.5 maybe 11.5 mBar pressure. Water vapor will tend to float. But may wish to condense into a percipitant of some kind. We prefer that it does instead loft to the higher atmosphere. So microwave energy from our orbital machines is desired to assist that. So, if the energy of the orbital machines is not at that time required to shield the atmosphere as much we may project microwaves, to excite water molecules, to hope that this will lift up and up, and up.
Where now the Oxygen and Hydrogen split from the water by the suns radiation will just float away, we may have a chance with an artificial magnetic field, to retain these molecules in a way beneficial to human desires.
We do not know if Phobos and Deimos have water ice or some other type of Hydrogen reservoir in them. Chances are no. But they do have Oxygen.
So with what has previously been suggested in this post, we have chances of Hydrogen to capture, at the top of the Martian atmosphere, and also even possibly water vapor. Captured to orbit is my hope.
So, the point is that water can be a primary greenhouse gas for this earliy stage of terriforming of Mar, and then next will be how to produce significant amounts of Methane.
Where I have suggested a an ice covered lake(s)/Sea(s) for the surface of Mars, we may manufacture Hydrogen from water, and inject it along with Martian atmosphere into some of those and include microbes that will digest those and produce Methane.
That to be released to atmosphere, the Nitrogen and Argon concentrates that will accumulate from these processes, to serve human desires on the Martian surface or in it's orbit.
I could go much futher, and likely will in time, but I am getting tired.
Done for now.

Void · 2021-03-02 09:25:23

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Later, if having established Earth/Moon<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos<>Ceres/Asteroid belt,
That could be expanded by manufacturing shells from the materials of Mercury. Put a bit of water into them, and then flow them out to Venus on the solar wind. Fill them with Carbon, Nitrogen, Argon, ect.
Then flow them to where they are wanted. If they go to the outer solar system, then load them up with water if lakes and seas agriculture is desired.
So, just maybe plenty.
Mars is a great initial target, but there is only one of them. And it is just possible that by taking the atmosphere of Venus for human uses, Venus might get somewhat terraformed eventually, way down the line.
Done.

Void · 2021-03-06 04:24:09

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Janus Farm

Well, I am not sleeping well tonight, as I am thinking about something I think is wonderful. Perhaps if I post it I will be able to sleep.
I think we can have power plants in space that are also farms, and nice places to hang out in.
The "Schematic" above indicates a cylinder. It could be filled with oxygen and water, with some soil. On it's exterior could be extra layers of metals maybe even just foils.
In the vacuum of space this would then behave like a thermos bottle. No wonder that it would overheat unless cooled, so therefore a heat engine to dissipate the excess heat into the universe. If engineers are so incompetent that they cannot maintain human safety from thermal variance, then they would be fired.
I want something I would call a "Hot Window". Transparent Aluminum, and a cooling system could be involved. It would be part of the optics of this system.
If you see what I have indicated for the cylinder, it will have a dividing wall, and light will alternately be shined into one half or the other. The optics will need to have subparts to arrange for that. I don't care to drill down on a specific instance, as their could be many variations. For instance light does not have to come in from the sunward end of the cylinder, I only drew a logical starting instance.
The Spin Gravity would be rather low. This is to reduce the needed strength of the cylinder, and actually for fun. You could fly inside of this thing. You may need air circulating fans to distribute heat properly as convection may be weak.
You would have surfaces of the inside of the cylinder, and also the dividing wall. All of which you should be able to access with flying methods.
The inside of the cylinder could be all islands of soil, and waterways dividing them. You would not need bridges, as you can fly actually. If you are tired you could fly with a machine of some sort.
The purpose of the water ways, in part is to absorb heat, and circulate it to the heat engine.
The heat engine will use a fluid that can exploit the near absolute zero temperature of the universe. Of course it will have dry radiators exposed to space, and the whole process will have to be regulated so that you don't ice up the water from which heat is to be absorbed.
This type of device would go very nicely into a "Common Plain", perhaps along with Voyager Station type disk devices that humans could live in.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9640
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Someone has a very good version:
I like this common plain:
https://phys.org/news/2021-01-physicist … ceres.html
https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
https://www.sciencealert.com/images/202 … lite-1.jpg
However this device would also be a place where people could be evacuated to in emergencies, and it would also just be a very nice place to hang out in some times.
And of course it would be a farm. You could have aquaculture and agriculture inside the cylinder, and also hanging gardens on the dividing wall.
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I think that in the argument between Mars, Moon, and Ceres, vs. Artificial worlds, this changes the equasions, as these devices could export power to planets, such as Earth and Mars, and would be very useful to make Mars more habitable.
So, I still have a place for Mars Direct thinking. We need not be proto-apes, fighting a binary battle for tribal instincts. That is just silly.
We can have so much, it now appears.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-09 20:25:41)

Void · 2021-03-07 11:01:40

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Nesting for Habitats in Space:
A paint picture of it:

OK, so the Null Frame would be cylindrical in its largest nature. I have shown one where two cylinderes intersect in a joining.
The Null Frame would not spin, but could be maneuvered in orbit by some method as needed. It will be pressurized, hopefully with a O2/N2 mix.
The nested habitat is shown as blue, and may be rotated. It is somewhat like a doughnut.
I have mentioned vacuum seals. The relative speed at the location where I have indicated that seals are located will hopefully be within managable magnitude. Although there could be many schemes, I would anticipate that a flexable film/web that is slippery might work. Teflon sheeting perhaps. It is intened that the Vacuum, (Pink Color), will pull the film against the rotating blue habitat walls outside. If this can be accomplished, or something better, is devised, then the outer perimiter of the rotator can be kept in vacuum, even if the interior of the blue Rotator, and the Null Frame are pressurized. Obviously there will be some leakage, so vacuum pumps will be required to maintain the needed vacuum.
If it works, then people can just pass through doors, in the blue Rotator, at the "Doughnut Hole".
The blue Rotator would be maintained in position by magnetic methods, on it's permiter, like a magnetic rail system. However skids and wheels could also be present in case of a power loss.
If this method works, then a Null Frame, could be of enormous size and hold many of these, with various synthetic gravity values. People could pass through the micro-gravity Null Frame, to access these.
While there would be no rule about conducting sunlight into the Null Frame, I prefer to believe that for this device we would mostly be dealing with artificial light. The Janus Farms could produce the bulk of the food, and inside of the Null Frame and Rotators would be specialty items, and gardens. Obviously the humans may have a rotator that could even produce 1 g, so time would tell what the healty practices will be to dwell in lower gravity situations.
It can be noted that the Null Frame not spinning, solar power sources could be attached to it's outside. Perhaps power from a Janus Farm, or solar pannels, or some Nuclear or other device.
I think this is pretty good! But do criticise me if there is something wrong with the notion(s).
Done.

Some Video's about Axium Space:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=th … 269AB4DD69

I am going to see if I can get one also from "The angry astronaut".

Well I can't find it. You can query for "The angry astronaut", and perhaps you can find it.

In that interview, the guest explains that micro-gravity products have some real potential.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-07 11:11:39)

Void · 2021-03-07 19:41:17

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Some further thoughts on the use of nesting in a habitat structure.
I is normal in our day that we likely spend ~8 hours sleeping, and so, perhaps in a situation which to a degree resembles microgravity. I am wondering if the blood pooling problem can be addressed in a similar way, where in a 24 hour period, a person could be in microgravity for a certain number of hours. This would likely be to do work in the Null Frame areas outside of the Rotators. I am guessing that their are chances.
In the last post I suggested a nested rotor with vacuum methods, which I would hope could reach to 1 g simulated spin gravity. The question is how many hours should a person be in that nested Rotor, to maintain health? We will have to experiment to find out. It is also possible that over time, medicine discoveries will also help with the ill effects of micro-gravity for humans.
Now, I am thinking of alternate rotors. If you have low enough spin gravity, can you have a lesser magnitude of vacuum. Lets say for Ceres. I am guessing that you could get away with no vacuum in the "Pink" area, and so no seals.
I anticipate that it might be possible to do that, or even dispose of the complete structure of the rotor. I am thinking of a open torus, rotor. I will make a drawing.

Obviously it might be possible to get away with a greater spin gravity and still not use a vacuum. This would be particularly true if the air in the air gap rotates, and even may be laminar in flow.
This would be good, as say perhaps 1/10 g might be enough for water plumbing to work.
This again would be a field for discovery. At what g force does blood pooling become a problem? And so on.
How much gravity do you need to sense up and down something like on Earth?
Done.

louis · 2021-03-07 20:41:13

I've suggested that before - surface rotators for sleeping to keep people healthy through having 1G for 8 hours each sol. However, a lot of progress has been made re muscle and bone loss - it's pretty much solved for ISS visits of several months and that's in zero G.

Void wrote:

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Some further thoughts on the use of nesting in a habitat structure.
I is normal in our day that we likely spend ~8 hours sleeping, and so, perhaps in a situation which to a degree resembles microgravity. I am wondering if the blood pooling problem can be addressed in a similar way, where in a 24 hour period, a person could be in microgravity for a certain number of hours. This would likely be to do work in the Null Frame areas outside of the Rotators. I am guessing that their are chances.
In the last post I suggested a nested rotor with vacuum methods, which I would hope could reach to 1 g simulated spin gravity. The question is how many hours should a person be in that nested Rotor, to maintain health? We will have to experiment to find out. It is also possible that over time, medicine discoveries will also help with the ill effects of micro-gravity for humans.
Now, I am thinking of alternate rotors. If you have low enough spin gravity, can you have a lesser magnitude of vacuum. Lets say for Ceres. I am guessing that you could get away with no vacuum in the "Pink" area, and so no seals.
I anticipate that it might be possible to do that, or even dispose of the complete structure of the rotor. I am thinking of a open torus, rotor. I will make a drawing.
https://i.imgur.com/7uDmv2x.png
Obviously it might be possible to get away with a greater spin gravity and still not use a vacuum. This would be particularly true if the air in the air gap rotates, and even may be laminar in flow.
This would be good, as say perhaps 1/10 g might be enough for water plumbing to work.
This again would be a field for discovery. At what g force does blood pooling become a problem? And so on.
How much gravity do you need to sense up and down something like on Earth?
Done.

Void · 2021-03-08 04:44:07

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Louis,
Yes, I think that the idea of synthetic gravity on the surface of Mars is not that far fetched.
I am not sure that the combination of 1g and bedrest will do the trick.
But we would try many things, there is no reason to pronounce a judgement just yet.
Thanks for the input/feedback.
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Previously, as far as I can tell there were two options for human habitation in Space. Synthetic gravity machines in orbits, and Planetary Surfaces. The Bezos and Musk camps sort of at this time.
However now I have a set of notions which I am expressing, that I feel is a set of joining methods for those two camps. For Ceres, and possibly for Mars, rotators on the surface are possible, I feel, and yet also in orbits.
I feel that the nesting methods are going to be superior to the previously conceived orbital synthetic gravity machines. In those, in many cases, the notion is to make an enclosure, spin it, fill it with soil and water. Probably most of it would be spun up to a 1 g value. This would stress the cylinder as it would be trying to fly apart with such a load. I also have concerns about having wet soil in contact with presumably metal walls of the cylinder. Corrosion would be a big concern. And I believe that per what I recall from GW, it is good to have those surfaces accessible, in case a leak develops.
The Nested method, would allow for that. Radiation being a problem to solve, the wet soil could be considered helpful however. Yet it would be prefered that such wet soil be in rotators having less than 1 g synthetic gravity.
So, there would be Earth simulated gravity in some, but you would not invest in as much mass to protect from radiation. Rotators with less gravity might have soil for radiation protection. However, I don't know if a Ceres simulated gravity would work well enough that soil would not "Splash" around. What might be used instead would be "Bricks" and "Tiles" that could be anchored down. So, low gravity rotators would have the greater radiation protection. For higher gravity rotators, less mass for radiation protection, but such a rotator could "Hide" behind a Ceres simulation rotator, which would then protect from solar storms to a degree. Probably magnetic shielding would be used as well.
But then if bulk shielding is to be used, it can be attached to the Null Frame, and so would not have to rotate. So, then the structural strength of the rotators can be sharply reduced.
One measure of what a synthetic gravity, would be "Baby Gravity". In your post Louis, you indicated that the ISS has apparently done some good work on how to maintain bone and muscle mass. However we are not going to want to raise children in microgravity for years and years. So, far also blood pooling seems to be a real problem even after just 6 months. Eye damage also occurs.
But "Baby" gravity......Imagine trying to change a poopy diaper for a baby in micro-gravity. Even if we could learn how to cause human bodies to grow properly in micro-gravity, the reality of feces, urine, and vomit, would have to be solved. That calls for a certain minimum simulated gravity. At this time I don't know what that is. It is more than microgravity and less than Earth similar, I would think.
I know that since you likely almost totally care only about Mars, that this is not a problem that you feel might be an issue. That is fine, be as you are, but for my part I want to also solve for orbital synthetic gravity methods.
In a quote about a Ceres "Mega" sattelite, it is stated that "In principal, Ceres could support, Janhunen believes, 10,000 times the Earth's current population".
So, that is very significant for a potential. I believe that Mars also could have a lot of orbital "Land". It does after all have Pobos and Deimos in orbit, and some of that raw material may be used, along with some materials from Mars and perhaps certain asteroids.
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It is fairly obvious how to terraform Mars with assistance from such an orbital community.
The nature of Mars at this time is somewhat beyond being able to support a surface biosphere. Still experiments have shown that some life could have fair chances in the cracks of rock, and soil. Also, the polar ice caps possibly can have liquid water. How that might happen is that a stony object embedded in ice might be heated by solar energy enough to melt some water. The water and stone being encased by ice it would be able to support the existance of liquid water per pressure. A little bit of salt would help. However, in this paragraph, I am suggesting that Mars is just over the edge of being able to have a living biosphere. For all we know, there is at least underground ice.
But now about terraforming....
-Elon Musk wants to flash nuke the polar ice caps. I feel that that is a useful tool, but we should want to use other tools as well. Where I think he just wants to flash off ice into the atmosphere, I want to melt ice below the surface ice.
I would suggest microwave energy from orbital assets. It is also possible that the method of impactors could make a contribution. If these were relatively small Mars crossing objects, and they could accurately be targeted to the ice caps that should help.
Parts of the ice caps are probabbly solar collectors, where dirt does not cover ice. The natural solar flux is about .48% of that of Earth. If we use flash bombs, and microwaves, and perhaps even impactors, the balance could be turned so that the ice caps could have slushy water in them. This might be able to support a biosphere then. While it is true that the input of more energy would also vaporize some of the ice cap materials, we can make that work for us. If you do a flash bomb, and follow that with sufficient microwave power, it might be possible to make the water vapors go into the high atmosphere, where U.V. light would split it. So that the result does not float off, then Mars would need to have an artificial protective magnetic field.
The saying was "Red Mars", "Green Mars", "Blue Mars". Well unless a massive amount of Nitrogen and/or Argon could be added to Mars, "Blue Mars", is not possible in my opinion. But I think that "Red Mars", "Green Mars could be possible with Oxygen. Oxygen comming from water vapors through photolysis.
The logic is this: If you want Mars to be as warm as Earth, you need 2 bars of atmosphere. 2 Bars of Oxygen would simply not work out. You would have to split 6 times as much water as for a 1/3 bar atmosphere, and of course you could not play with matches or you would burn the place up.
A 1/3 bar atmosphere would produce some greenhouse effect, and intentional greenhouse gas production would help. If you moved the Earth out to the orbit of Mars, some open ocean would still be possible, probably near the equator, but it would be a very glaciated ice age planet. But for Mars we do not have the ~.8 bars of Nitrogen.
So, that is about it. I think that if we want to terraform Mars, we are going to want to have orbital assets. With a lot of them, it is possible that the terraforming of Mars to a 1/3 bar O2 atmosphere would be in reach, within some reasonable measure of time.
Just getting the CO2 vaporized out of the Martian ice cap(s) should make a sort of "High Arctic" biosphere possible over much of the planet. And you would also have the potential of two ice covered seas, one at each pole.
Getting to a 11, or 16.5 mBar atmosphere would do a lot of good things. It might be more favorable to aircraft of some sort. In that condition, the lower areas might have a considerable increase in the protective characteristics of atmosphere, per radiation. It would also allow for snow, and snowmelts to make temporary streams of water.
Good enough for now.
Done

Void · 2021-03-09 09:15:27

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OK, I have some additions to do.
1) -Aquatic sleeping areas
2) -Magnetic Equitorial Bumpy Hoop Ring.
3) -Sun Synchronous Orbital Microwave Power.
As always I do appreciate good spirited guidance where it may appear that I am off course.
I think that in a way Spacenut had something like #1. A courtyard with a aquarium above it, transparent bottom.
But continuing on #1, I see that we could have an aquatic ring. It would have to completely box in the water, in case the ring has to be stopped from spinning. Then you can just build air filled rooms, to sleep in, or lounge in. The rotational speed would be set at whatever is practical, and whatever is healthful. So, perhaps a person would spend 50% of their life in these. And that would have radiation protection properties. But it could be a swimming pool/aquaculture unit, possibly both.
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For 2) -Magnetic Equitorial Bumpy Hoop Ring, I have the following. I anticipate a low orbital string of space stations about the Equator, where they have magnetic fields, that can protect in part from radiation, and may protect the Martian atmosphere. Lots of things to learn about how this could be ok, or needs to be modified. The magnetic bubbles could be expanded when they are heading away from the sun, and contracted when heading for the sun, in their Martian orbit. So, a plasma water wheel. They might attract and repulse each other. A Skyhook tether to be included. To capture high altitude space/air craft. Also, though the ability to siphon up Martian atmosphere as a resource. Dr. Robert Zubrin seems to be OK with the notion of Skyhooks for Mars. There might also be ground based magnetic fields that can turn on and off, to help put orbital momentum into the "Magnetic Equitorial Bumpy Hoop Ring".
For 3) -Sun Synchronous Orbital Microwave Power, I have the following. Space Stations which do that provide microwave energy to melt into the Martian ice caps. They also may at times project energy to the surface in non-polar regions. They may have magnetic fields as well, but mostly for radiation protection.
I will suppose at this point I will post more about the three items in this post as is convenient to me.
*Note: Some concern has to be given of using Elon Musk flash bombs to evaporate/melt the ice caps. The concern is that orbital space stations and ground stations will not be damaged to any great extent from the practice.
Done.

Void · 2021-03-09 19:59:59

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Microgravity Gardening.
https://www.space.com/37258-gardening-p … he%20video.
So, now I am thinking I would like to think of a modified form of the Janus Farm.
In this case it would not spin, so no spin gravity.
To use it in conjunction with a heat engine, its hull would be double with a gap between where a working fluid could draw the heat away into a heat engine.
So, this type could be attached to a Null Frame, many of them in fact. In this case perhaps the interior air would be N2/O2 at a suitable pressure for humans. So, if you lived in one of these space habitats with Null Frames and Rotors, you could go down tubes daily and be in a sunlit garden or work in one.
This is not to say that their could not be the rotating variety of Junus Farm, but for those you would need some kind of airlock to access.
I am thinking of a space habitat which could be like a tree of large pipes and micro-gravity Janus Farms, with spin gravity rotors.
An inhabitant would seldom have to go though an airlock. However I would think it would be wise to have the entire "Tree" sectioned off with closable doors in case one section becomes a risk through depressurization or toxicity, fire, etc.

Janus Farm

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-03-09 20:26:11)

Void · 2021-03-09 20:24:40

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So, now I am rather encouraged. This type of system could evolve from what is being done on the ISS. We should not have to build giant centrifuges where you centrifuge the soil and trees and water. Although you could build some like that.
One thing about space habitation is no matter what you do, you will leak volitile substances over time. However if you create a magnetosphere, you have chances or recovering some of that. For Mars, if you have a magnetic shield there are chances that leakage will pass back down into the atmosphere of Mars.
So, for Earth, Mars, and Ceres, it looks like lots of volitiles available.
For Mercury, Venus and the Moon, Hydrated substances are harder to come by.
So, yes I see these "Trees" being put into many places in the solar system over time.
But back to Mars. With a magnetic bubble, with a skyhook, there may be many ways to bring Martian materials to orbit for use in such an Orbital Tree. Dr. Robert Zubrin is willing to talk about Skyhooks. So using a space craft and hooking it would be a way. But also it may be possible to scoop Martian atmosphere to orbit by tether or magnetic reconnection into the magnetic bubble from the upper atmosphere.
I am not against the habitation of the surface of Mars. It should be moved towards. But these orbital systems may be highly assistive in terraforming Mars itself, and might house an enormous number of people in rather happy situations.
Done.

Void · 2021-03-14 16:15:05

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I have been thinkiing this over a bit more.
I think that the reason for the binary conflict between the Mars direct people and the orbital habitat people, is that the Mars direct people have good reason to suspect that the orbital habitat notion will be a way to divert from ever accessing Mars fully. History does seem to suggest that that can be true. But that was then, and this is now.
To make it clear, I do think that Mars direct comes first.
I have been considering microgravity agriculture, and spin gravity habitats linked together. The situation could be where the agricultural microgravity portion, would have full life support for humans, long term safety. However, several parameters might be sufficient for plants, and to various degrees not suitable to humans. In this idea, the crop fields will already abandon gravity. This is not going to be fatal to humans on the short term, if they are to visit those crop fields. I think that Robert Dyck has already along with other people considered reduced air pressure. That is an option, but without protective suits, lower air pressures could present dangers to exposed humans, so I am reluctant to be eager to go below 250 mBar, probabbly 333 mBar. But as you may see as I continue, I think that for vascular plants from Earth, 70 mBar might be an option.
To work with those pressures, the plants could be on Pallets. The pallets would be moved to a pressurized chamber to harvest and plant, where humans might be involved. Otherwise automation/robots would care for them when they were at low pressure.
The next concern would be radiation. It seems that plants can adapt to a bad radiation condition, and it seems likely to me that selective breeding and genetic engineering could develop varieties even more tollerant to radiation problems.
In the case of radiation concerns for people, you could have a people container which could move about in the farms microgravity, which would supply necessary protection.
Here is an article that suggests it:
Query: "Could Astronauts crops survive space radation?"
https://www.space.com/11142-chernobyl-r … crops.html
It is not exactly space radiation, but it is an encouraging find.
I would expect to employ artificial magnetic fields anyway, where these farms did not have protection from a planets magnetic field. Still that is a partial protection.
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And so because of the above I think that is worth considering "Minimal Agruculture" in conjunction with spin habitats very well built for humans.
The point would be to get all the benefits of agruculture, without fully human rating the farms for human presence, safety. Food, Oxygen, clean water for instance. And to do this with minimal investment.
Treating agriculture as a utility, and treating spin gravity devices as both extensive life support but also making it psycholocally pleasing.
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Here I am thinking of both through window sunlight, for the farms, and more likely artificial lighting for where the humans mostly dwell, in the synthetic gravity machines. Low population density in the farms, and high population density in the spin gravity sections.
Exceptions can be:
1) A small protected park(s), under normal sunlight for human satisfaction.
2) If using nuclear energy instead of sunlight, then artificial sunlight for the farms as well, but even very far out in the solar system it might be possible to have a sunshine "Park(s)" using concentrating mirrors.
In the case where sunlight is used in the farms, then a heat engine(s) could be used to cool the sections that may overheat, and in doing that to generate electrical power.
In the case of nuclear, then a heat engine to generate power, and the farm and spin gravity sections to be used as a heat sink.
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I see two levels of this in the solar system:
1)Earth>Moon>Mars>Ceres>?
2) Then Mercury>Venus>The rest of the solar system.
#1 first of course, and later perhaps #2.
For #2, I think an artificial magnetic field for Venus, if there is no life in it's atmosphere. It is my hope that Hydrogen from the sun could be captured in that field.
For #1, the Earth supplies human labor in the form of telepresence on the Moon, and in orbits, the Moon supplies much of the raw materials to construct farm/spin gravity assemblies which may migrate to new orbits. For Mars and Ceres, extra materials would be added on location. Carbon, Water, Oxygen, Nitrogen, maybe Argon.
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I am aprehensive about tether technology, but I note that for now at least Mars would have far less threat of impactors, at least that is my current notion. Using tethers would also provide incentive to clean up the Earths LEO space junk.
Isaac Arthur gives what I consider to be an excellent presentation here:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=is … &FORM=VIRE
I am encouraged. I can sort of believe in a space elevator(s) for Ceres, and a skyhook system for Mars. I am guessing that it would be so valuable for LEO, that it should be tried for that as well.
It is very possible that I have not thought of anything that some other people did not also think of, but I like to work though this material.
It seems to be asserted that Ceres could house 10,000 times as the current population of Earth. What if we could eventually say the same for Mars? Would it be so bad to have vast amounts of farmland in the Martian sky? How about spin gravity devices with the gravity desired?
What if these things would serve as significant terraforming tools for Mars itself?
As I see it there is much to gain.
Done for now.

Void · 2021-03-17 11:39:22

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The question of Argon from the Moon.
Issac Arthur does mention it, in the video in the just prior post.
Apparently it can freeze out on the night side of the Moon, so presumably it might exist in significant quantities in the polar shadowed craters. It apparently outgasses from the Moon, as Potasium-40 decays.
So, possibly a local resource of significance. Among other uses, perhaps useful in electric propulsion.
https://www.isro.gov.in/update/31-oct-2 … -exosphere
Quote:

Detection of Argon-40 in the lunar exosphere

So, useful to purposes in space I would guess, along with other methods of propulsion, and perhaps for many other purposes.
Done.

Void · 2021-03-23 07:51:16

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Phobos and Deimos:
Keep in mind that I expect SpaceX to attempt to set up a base on Mars with a "Mars Direct" method.
It has occurred to me to ask the question this morning: "Could SpaceX sell Starships to a private company and so allow that company to be traded on the stock market?"
This would allow capital to be assigned to a shipping business using Starships. Sort of like if Tesla were to sell Semi Trucks to another company. Elon Musk does not want to make SpaceX a public traded company, as he would worry that the company would be taken over by bean counters, who would regard Mars activity to be the first to shut down. But, it may not work out that way, perhaps the company would think that Phobos and Deimos were valuable targets for financial activity.
Mars Moons:
https://www.universetoday.com/143438/wa … nd-deimos/
Video(s) from the above link:
https://www.universetoday.com/143438/wa … nd-deimos/
Heresy? That is a religious concept. It should be possible to examine such notions as it is closer to science than religion.
This morning I was wondering about water and Argon on the Moon and Mercury.
For Mercury, it is thought that there is enough heat from sunlight to directly generate water from the solar wind's Hydrogen impacting the soil.
For our Moon, it is thought that protons embedded into the soil, can generate water, if impactors generate sufficient heat.
In both cases water can be generated, (Apparently).
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And now I think I have had an insight, that could suggest that the moons of Mars might indeed contain hydrated minerals, or even ices of water and maybe even Argon.
Starting with the Hydrated minerals, if these moons were captured asteroids then they could be partially composed of such. On the other hand, it may be that if they were from an impactor splash off of Mars, it may be true that the impactor was composed of hydrated minerals, and it also seems that the surface of Mars has absorbed a lot of water into its rocks. So, I feel that their are good chances that there could be hydrated minerals. The surface may not show it, but that surface could be made of minerals that have been weathered to dry.
For Phobos, it is stated that it has a temperature range of 25 degF (-4 degC), and -170 degF (-112 degC).
I am not very good at calculating vapor pressure. However the results I have gotten are very low for the temperature -112 C.
I may very well be wrong, but what I am thinking is that if water could freeze inside of the moon, and fill the pores, then the cold temperature would permeate down from the cold surface possibly to the core, because the warm surfaces would indeed not hold ice, and so would have a thermos effect, as vacuum filled pores would tend to insulate the that moon from the sun's heat.
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I also think that Hydrogen would collect in those pores to some degree, and I wonder if such a "sponge" of Hydrogen would help to keep water from evaporating.
But I could certainly be wrong, but in one way or another there could be:
1) Hydrated Minerals.
2) Water Ice.
3) A hydrogen sponge.
In any of these cases, a useful raw material may be part of these moon's characteristics.
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Even if those moons are bone dry, I can see a chance to collect Hydrogen magnetically, (Maybe). If the magnetic field could capture plasma from the solar wind and that plasma could be converted by some means to Hydrogen Gas.
In any case, there would be chances that such a magnetic field would help to hold some of the moons regolith in place.
Possibly this one:
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2007/05 … ic-fields/
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/
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While SpaceX may very well, do only Mars Direct for a settlement on the surface of Mars, I can easily see where others might want to purchase or lease Starships, to visit and occupy Phobos and Deimos.
Mars direct has the advantage of using the atmosphere of Mars, to drain off excess velocity. That makes the surface of Mars attractive relative to our Moon. However, I have a hunch that aerocapture will be a thing that some alternatite variety of Starship might be able to do.
In any case if you had propellant depots in association with those moons, then that would facilitate various useful things. We also have chances of minerals of value being in those moons.
As for space radiation, of course Mars might block some radiation. But if you had a magnetic field it might also be helpful for some types of radiation. If you then also have materials such as water, that would make good shielding. And of course the regolith of each of those moons as well.
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I think we should look more favorably at Phobos and Deimos.

Here is an interesting and maybe off topic song:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%c … crslsl%3d0
Done

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