The Unifying Common Plain

Void · 2020-09-05 12:39:28

The Unifying Common Plain:
To start, this is not strictly speaking a new thing. Gerard K. O'Neil had one in his concept of two joined counter spinning cylinder habitats. That joining structure just was not named a "Common Plain", I believe.
Just when I thought I was done posting this morning, this new thing came to me. I was thinking about Terraforming Venus, and then that mutated to what I am going to present.
Indeed, it may also be useful in Terraforming worlds, and also for what I would call sensible Semi-Cycling spaceships. This idea could connect so many things, that I had to put it somewhere where I would be the least at risk of being declaired as "Off Topic". Terraforming is the most tollerant section I believe.
Starship and New Glen and others could be featured in this at the beginning. So, perhaps we join many dreamers with this as well.
Where could we make a "Common Plain"? What is a "Common Plain"?
Easier to just spit it out. Say you have a orbital power Sattelite. This could be used also as a "Common Plain". I guess you might build the thing in LEO, and then put it elsewhere as desired. I intend to attach spinning Habitats and Greenhouses to it.
Now it has gyroscopes to help orient it. It also serves as a joining structure, and a power source for the habitats, and to a degree some shielding from the negitive processes in space.
It is intended that one side of the Plain will be sunward, and the other anti-sunward.
The sunward side would have solar cells, and slow spin greenhouses attached to it. I like slow spin, as all that should be needed for humans in those greenhouses would be minimum necessary synthetic gravity. A sense of up and down for humans, and per a remembered Terraformer post enough to have some sort of plumbing that works.
We can call that anti-sunward side, the "Leward" side I guess. The leward side would have human capable habitats. If it had plants in it most likely they would be decorative and be grown under artificial light. You could have observation portals to see the stars, and if you had a planet below you to also see that.
All of these spinning elements both greenhouses and habits could have varible spin rates, and also counter-spinning partners. So, they would be used as positioning devices. I don't think it will matter that much if your simulated 'g' force was slowly changed around a base value of 1 g, 1/3 g, 1/6 g, at a slow rate, say +/- some small value in order to use the spinning objects as gyroscopes for orienting the whole Common Plain.
I am going to describe a future spinning structure first, and then step back to what will be practicle now.
Future:
Think of a "Wedding Cake" of stacked torus structures, with a very large candle on the sunward side. All of the torus will be on the leward side. This will be "Made in space" in the furture.
For our torus, we can have Earth, Venus, Mercury, Mars, and Moon gravity simulation. For our sunward tube/candle, we can propose to have Ceres simulated gravity.
So, in this case a self connected of substrutures where a human could move between each gravity field as desired, but there would likely be air tight doors that could be depolyed to isolate each section if needed by an aleak event.
I would like even the Ceres greenhouse to be of the same air pressure, but prudence may say let it be a lesser pressure, so, in that case methods to prep people to get rid of the Nitrogen in their bodies. In the event of a solar flare, though, it should be OK for people to go from an O2 atmosphere at 1/3 bar to higher pressures, with relative haste.
I would like all of the pressurized assemblies to be linked by pressurized tubes. So, you would have multi-seals, to segrate a pressuried neck at the Ceres leward boundry from the deadly vacuum of space.
This could be expected to leak a bit even with the best efforts, so, we need a method to recapture most of the leaked air. Such a method will be useful in other ways.
So, we would have a very low pressure air capture enveloping container on the leward side that would encompes vertually all of what is behind the plain structure.
This can also serve as a impactor protector, and thermal equilibrator, and a garage for space ships.
It would be desired to keep the air pressure below viscous flow for molecules. So, it would contain molecular flow of molecules. You could have capture methods to re-get the molecule leakage.
You could have "Airlocks" that would allow a ship to come in with low levels of loss of air molecules.
Now: (I am getting tired).
We can wonder if entities like SpaceX and Blue Origins could bring modules to LEO and of course structure for a common plain unification structure.
Blue Origins looks rather good.
Here is where a modification of a "Version" of Starship would be champion, in my opinion.
While even with better Raptor engines SSTO is probably stupid for Starship. I have mentioned before, that I think that some version of Starship could be split into two.
The propulsion section below, and the fairing section above. While a propper Starship could do SSTO at this time, (If you had one now), a split Starship would have better chances, but it would actually be SSTO, you would not have resources to land the propulsion and fairing sections. So, unless you leave the fairing section in orbit, and just land the propulsion section, you may be condidered rather dumb.
But if you do leave the fairing section in orbit, then you might have chances to do something useful. And so, then I would say before we can make spinning habits "Made in Space", we could link 2 to 4 fairing sections together to make a spinning habitat to be on the leward side of a Unifying Plain. The greenhouse, leaves options to be creative. Not a show stopper, just options for future thinking.
And that's not a bad start, (The above). Good games to think about.
-----
Cycling Spaceships? Methods to shade Venus? Mars orbiters?
I am getting a need for a serious break. Later.....
Done for now.

Void · 2020-09-05 19:55:52

A bit more.
I should think that some spinning enclosures would have a different axis than the ones I described.
Also there may be a place for greenhouses that do not rotate. Those may be only a pressure of 70 mbar. As they would have no 'g' force, a free floating "Farmer" device could be in them to groom the plants.
While I anticipate that a collection of devices tied together with a plain strucure, would early on only be in the Earth/Moon subsystem, I do see potential for them everywhere just about.
To do something with Venus and Mercury is an interesting thing to ponder. For Mercury my impression is that you must have nuclear propulsion of some sort. But that could appear in the future, so I will speak of Mercury as a possible precursor to Venus.
The articles that I have read indicate that Mercury has thick slabs of ice in it's shadowed craters. It seems that the sunward side gets hot enough so that protons from the solar wind injected into regolith can grab Oxygen from the regolith and create water under those conditions. It does have a magnetic field, so perhaps that helps the water to get to the shadowed craters.
So, I do anticipate that cities could be set up in those shadowed craters, habitats utilizing the apparently plentiful ice slabs.
So, Mercury could be a mining and manufacturing planet. So much energy available, and so much materials. The intense solar wind could "Float" manufactured items out to higher orbits, and that could include Venus.
My thinking on the Terraforming of Venus is;
-Find out if there is life in the clouds. If not then perhaps we may consider it to be ours. (Humans).
Even in the best conditions, I am not wild about habitating the planet Venus directly, just it's orbits. I would like to mine it's atmosphere.
Still, my latest thinking on that is you start in the orbits, and, OK, put enough shades around the planet to drive the cloud deck lower, through cooling. Doing this you would also reduce the UV recieved by the planet. This could change things.
My understanding of how the clouds work is this:
1) UV causes the Sulfuric Acid to occur, by combining Sulfur Dioxide? Sulfur Trioxide? Not sure, with water vapor.
2) At the bottom of the cloud deck, at about 10 bars and increased temperature, the Sulfuric Acid decomposes, into Sulfur Dioxide/Sulfur Trioxide, and water vapor. So, reduce the U.V, and you may get clouds that are less acid.
Further, if you drove the cloud deck lower by cooling the atmosphere by shading, then you may more easily sustain floating habitats, where they might actually have less of the corrosive Sulfuric Acid, and more sunlight. Both would be positive.
And if you were going to go there, I would shell the whole planet. A floating shell. Push the gasses you don't want below the shell, and the gasses you did want above the shell. Easy to say Not necessarily easy to create or maintain.
But this is likely the one chance in our solar system where you might walk outside, (On the shell deck), in a .5 bar atmosphere of N2 and O2. (1 bar would make things too hot). The shell may also not necessarily have a normal Venus day length. Perhaps you would have a 2 to 7 Earth day week length????
So, other than the fact that hell is below you potentially a very nice world.
The residual heat below the deck(s) (Many layers of decks, I would hope), could be a power source particularly at night.
There of course would be no Moon to see at night, but the stars, and the common plane orbital habitats would be there to glitter.
Early eavning might be of cool breezes, but of course deep night might get pretty cool to cold.
As I have said, I think that habitating the Venus atmosphere sounds romantic, but probably our skills have to increase vastly before such a thing could be seriously worked towards.
See, we did touch on terraforming.
Good Bye
Done.

Void · 2020-09-08 10:27:59

I always think I am going to stop, but don't, not for long anyway.
I have worked this material a bit more. Really, i think that the Common Plain is a big deal.
Oribital Solar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power
Picture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-bas … oncept.jpg
No need to get fussy. It has a common plain, and I presume articulation of parts.
Now what if you include a Borg Cube, or many of them?
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Borg_cube
Cube:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube
Geometry with reference points, lines, and faces:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube#/med … micube.svg
I am not going to try to out geometry you. The cube represents a possible type of enclosure or envelope where we may to a degree separate what reality is like outside of it and how reality is inside of it. We would do this for our advantages, in hopes of adapting to space environments in a proffitable ways.
So, we have cubes. For the moment lets just think that they have thin metal walls, to make it plausable in your mind. No viscous atmosphere inside but capable of helping with the lighting, because being of a reflective substance inside, if your forward side(s) had portholes, a bit of light would come inside, and would reflect about. Also, the temperatures inside would equilibrate to some significant degree. And some small impactors would be stopped before perforating the cube, and some would vaporize and atomize, and slow down after punching a hole in the cube. UV radiation is at least reduced, or if your portholes are shielded, then UV. does not much present itself inside of the cube.
This then presents a modificed environment, which is somewhat less harsh.
This, in my opinion is an example of layering. I think that some people involved in space activitivities have a real hard time with such a concept as layering. They often come from a warmer climate, and most space launched are from warm areas, so these people interpret the space environment from what they know. And what they know is that layering is not necessary or useful where they live. So, they just don't think to work with it. That is an unproven opinion.
------
So, now you have a "Cube", (Or actually you could have a sphere). It is just easier to speak of discrete parts of a cube, so for now, cube it is.
The cube is attached to a power sattelite, and has an "Improved" environment inside of it. Hard radiation is still a problem though, unless you are in a natural environment that protects from it to some degree. LEO is apparently such a place.
But to grow up, then for harder environments, you need shielding. I am thinking that some of such can be magnetic, and some of material shielding.
This again, reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube#/med … micube.svg
Please in your mind grant that face/facet "I" is facing the sun when possible.
This is is bounded by lines "1-3-5-6", and corner points "abdc". It might be prudent to put solar flair protection on the entire face, if you can afford it. We know of many materials, most of which do nothing to provide material gain. I want to imagine that these radiation protections are of water filled bags, and that those bags are also given a prior to installation protection of the cube face "I" as perhaps "Windows". The windows are not to hold a strong differential air pressure, and they will not be wet from water, so, they can be thin but strong.
The pressure inside of the bags, can be rather low and yet they can foster life that can digest visible light photons. So, we keep the structrual strength requirements rather low for these bags, but can generate Oxygen and Biomass with them. We also get protection from solar flairs. So, more layering. And if the bags are transparent/translucent, then you don't need portholes, the inside of the "Cube" will get some light that will pass through them into it.
If you want wory about GCR, then I guess you can shield the other five sides of the cube in a similar fashion. You may, if you wish put mirrors on what we might call the four "Side" faces, and then have water bags. For the rear face, then ice bags. That would be a choice based on your economics.
If you are in a "Lean" economic situation as per shielding materials, then you might only want to shield descrete portions of the interior of the cube from GCR.
So, to a degree, using mass and magnetics, the interior envionment is much better for organic life, including us, than the raw space environment(s).
A little more about the "Water/Ice Bags".
They may be relatively transparent, if you prohibit life in them, or you may garden microbes in them. Nutrient availability might be used to regulate this.
They may also provide impactor protection, provided, they them self do not explode from impact in a way that is harmful. As for small leakage, that might be recovered from vacuum pumping the interior of the "Cube/Envrlope". We are only going to seek to maintain a molecular flow pressurization inside of the "Cube/Envelope".
But over time, "Water/Hydrogen" losses will occur, so a refresh/makeup source is needed, to maintain the system.
-----
So, now, inside of the "Cube/envelope" you may place pressurized structures. Some can spin and some not. Some greenhouses, and some habitation quarters.
The spinning devices being then tied down with bearings to the structure. Your flavor might be allowed for that as per methods.
I do not favor large centrifuge devices. I prefer minimal to the degree that they are comfortable and effective.
I do not want the expense of spinning radiation shielding, and of massive windows on spinning devices. I have previously, in other post suggested a greenhouse with a Ceres level of simulated gravity. However, for other tollerant crops I would just as soon not spin a greenhouse at all.
------
To link various spinning and non-spinning enclosures together, we might want a redundancy of bearing seals, also perhaps using vacuum grease.
"V-Seals"?
Here you go:
https://www.skf.com/group/products/indu … ring-seals
So, for instance if we had a spinning habitat with a greenhouse with Ceres type gravity on its sunward end, and an Earth type gravity habitat on its leward end, we might treat the tappered down "Pipe" that people could get through as a "Shaft".
We might enclose that "Shaft with a bubble of "Metal Shell" so that through a hatch in the "Shaft", you might enter a pressurized space that did not spin. But the shaft would still spin, and so the "Hatch" pass by you repeatedly. You would be quite dead, from depressurization unless you had large, safe, and effective bearing seals, that joined the non-spinning and spinning elements.
As for slow leakage, which must be expected, those leaks go into the "Cube/envelope", and your pumps regain it back to higher pressurization.
------
So, later I will talk of orbital rings of this stuff, that in your imagination, at least could completely make a ring around a planet, maybe moon.
Also, I will talk about very long missions with a collection of these things. Say a mission to Mercury to set up a manufacturing facility to make these things for the inner solar system.
A mission to Mercury taking 10-20 years. Is that wrong? We talk about generation ships to the stars, so I say no, "It is not wrong". It is not like Starship, but I don't care. We will want Starship, and this, in my opinion.
Tired......
Done.

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-08 10:37:14

For Void re #3

To the best of my knowledge, until your publication of the idea in Post #3, I am pretty sure no one has suggested a cone shaped habitat.

The closest I can think of is the famous Bernal Sphere, but if I understand your thinking correctly, you are imagining an O'Neill habitat shaped like a cone instead of a cylinder.

I wish you could find a way to deliver sketches to this forum so you could provide better exposure for ideas like that.

Others in the forum have demonstrated mastery of the art, and I am confident you could do so as well.

In previous posts I have reported finding reasonably well designed free drawing services on the Internet, and (I suspect) your operating system supports some simple drawing programs, if hand drawing is not convenient.

A sketch of a cone shaped O'Neill style habitat would be thought provoking.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-08 10:37:42)

Void · 2020-09-08 11:57:16

(th)

We seem to have a communication problem.
I see no instance where I mentioned a cone shaped habitat in post #3.

And I am rather sad that the factors:
-Unifying Common Plain, Example: (Orbital power satellite's + (spinning habitats + non-spinning habitats))
-Layering

; Are not discussed by members.

If you want a cone, you may have one. Spin it anyway you like if it will work.

I will work on illustrations, but it almost seems like you are trying to annoy me, as is common, instead of focusing on what matters, something minor or in this case, (I claim), is focused on. I am not mad, just annoyed, as I don't understand.

I could draw a cone, but everyone knows what a cone is.

I could draw a power satellite with other elements added to it such as "Cubes", but I don't see the value of that as I have left it as open to multiple arrangements.

I am not going to focus on one particular one.

And I am also sad to see that the idea of a long term space vessel is not mentioned. I feel that a large collections of structure being largely self sufficient, could go on passages of 10-20 years, and it would work rather well, as you could use unusual propulsion methods to assist in the voyage, such as gravity assists, the solar wind, and other things.

It is your choice to comment largely as you wish, but I am wondering why the only thing you seem to have provided is a request for me to draw a cone?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-09-08 12:16:23)

Void · 2020-09-10 11:08:23

Planet Mercury:
Two large things. Mercury resembles the Moon "Luna" in many ways.
It also has a gravity that is very close to that of Mers.
So, if humans become adapted for Mars and Luna, then that set of adaptive methods might be applied to settling on Mercury.
However the potential of Mercury will always be different than Mars and the Moon.
Really the only main down sides of Mercury are:
1) Hard to reach.
2) Can never have a useful atmosphere.
3) Thermal extremes. (In actually that can be a plus, per energy availability).
What would a paraterraformed Mercury look like if redone to human tastes?
Well, you could seek out Lava Tubes and also tunnel to make more presurizable space. Almost unlimited, as there is so much energy that can be transfered into them to make whatever biosphere(s) you might like.
And of course you could have artificial structures (Including "Domes") in the shadowed craters. It should not be that much trouble to use mirrors to get light as desired into the shadowed craters.
So, a fair amount of potential.
It has significant water, with an organic layer on it. So needed chemestry would be available most likely.
I have a guess about Mercury that I believe may very well apply to many other planets and moons. I think that the deeper you dig, the more volitile materials you will find. I think that many planetary surfaces have had massive time to be baked and/or freeze dried to what they look like now. I don't think that represents the nature of the "Deeps" of those worlds.
Per notions similar to those of (th) it might be possible to capture small orbital objects to supply more water and organic chemical materials.
Most of the planet might be an OK dart board to collide such with.
Given enough water, seas in the shadowed craters would not be out of the question. However they would need serious protection to prevent water evaporation.
And I did the above just to establish a notion of what the value of Mercury could be.
One value is it has the bigest fusion reactor in the solar system just beyond it's doorstep. That is not a small thing, when you might condider the relatively meager energy budget that Mars will have, at least until nuclear energy is developed in a major way.
Next post I will discuss getting to Mercury with significant means of manipulation, and then using Mercury to assist in getting out to the entire solar system, using the slow speed spacecraft I have been discussing in this topic.
Done.

Void · 2020-09-10 11:09:56

Unifying Common Plain Ring:

I have had a very lovely vision of a common plain for major asteroids, therefore I will set other sub-topics in this topic, to speak of this.
Major asteroids in the Main Belt: Ceres, 4 Vesta, Pallas, Juno. Also I will add 16 Psyche, the more metalic sibling.
We have speculated on methods to access the surface of such objects if they are to be inhabited for human use. Space Elevators, Towers, Rockets, Mass Drivers.
Why not roll it all into one?
Why not give them each a ring of power?
Sauron has been destroyed, and our hobbits are safe. So, I say rings of power for them.
Indeed a ring like Saturn's composed of components, but unlike Saturn going up from the ground to geosynch, and indeed sufficiently beyond and above geosynch orbit, to null out the gravitational and centrifugal effects which would act on the ring(s).
This would greatly increase the intercept of photons for those little "Hobbit" worlds.

------
For these worlds, it might seem silly to have agriculture in pressurized chambers in the ring, when you could attempt to have such agriculuture on the surface of the "Hobbit" object, and in it's tiny gravitational field.
As for the ring(s), I think habitations similar to a cruse ship, maybe a few potted plants. No reason to directly protect the hull of the yacht/cruse ship. I would rather have the pressure shell directly accecessible to patching in the event of a leak. And protection of the device would involve water/ice bags around it, a shell of it, and around that shell, perhaps a glass shell, that both wards off some impactors, and also filters out U.V. A thin shell at that, glass being strong in vacuum.
Elsewise, most of the ring to be connecting "Tissues" and solar/anti-solar pannels.
-----
So, what you would have. Your house would be in the ring(s). Electrical power would be conducted directly to factory caves inside the asteroid. You might ride any kind of mobile transit device to the ground and under it to do your days work.
Your ring could "Fling" a transit vehicle off on it's perimeter, to another of the ringed asteroids. Or if you feel the need to be really "Manly" you can add a mass driver to do a bigger fling, and demonstrate that you like big flings. A little chest pounding also?
If you are silly and want to become alien "Pork Chops", then perhaps you can synchronize all of your articulated solar/anti-solar pannels, and flash them, to tell them that dinner is served.
(Maybe No?)
Done.

Void · 2020-09-10 11:11:55

I just did two prior posts, Mercury, and the Asteroid Belt involved.
Done.

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-10 11:35:50

For Void re complaint about cones ...

Your output is like a rushing mountain steam, roaring and gurgling as it passes by. The canyon walls are steep and slippery, and the unwary person who sets foot in the flow is likely to be washed away, never to be heard from again.

I have snagged a couple of interesting ideas from the stream, at great personal peril. The balloon idea is transforming into an entire system for delivery of people and cargo safely to Mars.

Yesterday, I found your description of a cone shaped habitat to be hidden in code, which I will show you shortly.

However, I have snagged this idea without falling into the stream, and will now carry it away to study it at leisure.

So, for instance if we had a spinning habitat with a greenhouse with Ceres type gravity on its sunward end, and an Earth type gravity habitat on its leward end, we might treat the tappered down "Pipe" that people could get through as a "Shaft".

Most people would call a "tapered down pipe" a cone, but you are (obviously) not ** most ** people.

Please continue generating your torrent. Others are surely snagging useful ideas without running the risk of coming to your attention.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-10 11:36:41)

Void · 2020-09-12 14:21:38

Alright, you win (th), I was a bit harsh.

I have a diagram of something from paint. I realize I next need an account in imgur.

What is the code for adding a diagram here with a .png ending? Or do I need a different extension?

Thanks in advanced. I tried to search for the instructions on this site, but of course that can be an issue, at least for me.

Done.

Void · 2020-09-12 19:41:24

This could come under "Space Medicine", but I want it here also, as it suggests possibilities eventually to inhabit low gravity worlds, and also to reduce the intensity of synthetic gravity that might be needed. It is a way off before it could be done safely and controllably, but still a very big thing I think.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mighty-mic … cientists/

Mutant "mighty mice" stay bulked up in space but untreated mice lose muscle and bone mass, scientists say

------
So, I would like to suggest a couple of other notions:
1) A secondary heart connected to a "shunt" that would shunt blood from the upper body to the lower body. This would be more to deal with zero g, but we don't know maybe useful on the Moon and/or Mars. We don't know yet. Yes lots of danger of blood clots and what that could do. But an asperation.
2) Space Sickness / nausea. Could the signals from the inner ear be modified or blocked to make this less of a problem? Think Neuralink.
If all three of these become possible, then possibly all your functions requiring plumbing, could be on relatively small centrifuges.
------
Still I would like to think that people in space would have quaters also that are what is needed. 1/6 g?, 1/3 g?, 1 g. Whatever it would turn out to take for long term health.
Done.

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-12 19:58:17

For Void re Imgur ...

Void wrote:

Alright, you win (th), I was a bit harsh.
I have a diagram of something from paint. I realize I next need an account in imgur.
What is the code for adding a diagram here with a .png ending? Or do I need a different extension?
Thanks in advanced. I tried to search for the instructions on this site, but of course that can be an issue, at least for me.
Done.

Thankfully, the procedure to prepare an image link at imgur.com is mercifully simple.

After you have uploaded your image, you will (hopefully) see a small version of it in a display at the top of the page.

I cannot remember if it is the right mouse click or the left one, but you click on the image and imgur.com provides a menu with ALL the popular link formats.

Look for the one for bbcode (it's toward the bottom). Select that and it will be copied into the temporary memory used for copy and paste.

Log out of imgur.com (that is optional) and log into NewMars.com.

Paste the image link into your new post (or you can add it to an old post with an Edit).

Save the post, and the image should appear.

Just FYI ... you can edit the image at imgur.com. For example, if you want to rotate it they provide a way to do that (edit, as I recall).

I'm looking forward to seeing the image you've created!

***
There is no "win or lose" in this situation .... (or there shouldn't be) ... from my perspective, we are all trying to help each other succeed in the massive enterprise to help the human race climb out of the Earth's gravity well.

(th)

Void · 2020-09-13 11:41:45

sNjJvbw

A little help please, this did not cut it:
" sNjJvbw "

Actually I used '[img]web address[/img]'

I used to be able to post images on this site.

Need an update though.

I guess I can try this:
https://imgur.com/a/sNjJvbw

I was trying to use the img and /img bounds in brackets but it did not work.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Void (2020-09-13 11:54:08)

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-13 12:11:19

For Void re #13

I'll try just for fun ...

Edit #1 ... OK ... that worked ...

Did you try using the terrific menu that imgur.com provides?

I apologize for being unable to remember if you right click on your image, or left click on it.

One of those two clicks gives you a display of all the different ways you can add your image to a web site.

Choose the one for bbcode, and paste that into your next post here.

Edit #2: Gasp! You did ALL THAT in "Paint" ???

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-13 12:14:02)

Void · 2020-09-13 14:19:25

-------------------------------------------------
https://imgur.com/a/geLKMT0
OK, I will worry about the BB code another day. For now this addition(s)
This is a depiction of a molecular envolope which can have solar cells attached to it, and perhaps anti-solar cells as well.
Habitats and greenhouses can be enclosed. For greenhouses a "Window" needed.
Think Mylar and perhaps aluminum foil sufficiently strong for the cells/panels to be attached.
------
Much as some reptiles and fish and even mammals have scales, this is an outer deffence against some impactors, unwanted U.V. and it may be helpful to moderate interior temperatures.
------
I think that habitats and greenhouses might be greatly compatible with orbital solar power. The orbital power arrays to provide inertia, and anchors, with bearings and seals, to control undesired gyroscopic effects. Potentially the habitats to also be able to help maneuver the solar arrays.
------
It is possible that a person could work inside of this envelope with a reduced type of EVA suit, and that parts and tools drifting away would be contained to be retrieved. This would reduce the production of orbital hazards.
------
In the event of an overpressure/explosion, there should be provision of a blow-out wall(s), to prevent the shredding of the envelope and production of orbital hazards from that as well.

------

Thanks (th), I guess I will catch on better later.
Done

Last edited by Void (2020-09-13 14:20:58)

Void · 2020-09-13 15:06:35

This also:

https://imgur.com/a/lDDnn93

Hopefully "V" seals, and bearings, as many as makes it safe, and an automatic grease pump.

The habitat "Shaft" should not turn at a very high speed, so perhaps vacuum grease would do to help seal the molecular flow pressurized chamber from the Habitat<>Greenhouses which would be pressurized to a viscous flow level.

Done.

Void · 2020-09-13 20:50:52

OK, I am not quite ready to go to bed yet. We have some illustrations/schematics of possible structures which could be used to make orbital mini-worlds with redundancy, and I hope sufficient efficiency.
In the beginning, I am hoping that they will be useful to transfer energy to Earth, as well as to supply energy to the life support of the attached habitation structures.
This either is going to work or not. In the case it would work, then where are the limits?
We have the prospects of modifying humans, eventually to reduce the requirements of the protective structure. I remains to be seen how far that might go.
But I have some possibility ideas I want to project based on these concepts.
In case anyone is getting their linnen in a twist, be assured that I do not think of this method as being in competition with Starship at all. Actually I think it could compliment the potential of Starship(s) and their potential offshoots.
Ideas:
1) A long way off, but a platform which could be trusted with a long term community of humans to be likely to survive and even thrive may use propulsion methods that a Starship would rightfully shun most of the time. A 10-20 year mission sounds terrable, but there could be people who could make it a career plan. Such long missions could use gravity assists, many of them to reach Mercury. If the platform was of sufficient ability, then a settlement could be established. The Solar wind and perhaps solar photon emissions could assist, but I understand that it is easier to ride with the wind rather than to tack into it. Also electric tethers could also be a propulsion method.
But I feel Mercury would be a long way off. The Earth/Moon will have a vastly bigger labor pool. It being easier to use solar wind and photons to propulse away from the sun, then I hope for a leapfrog method from Earth/Moon > Mars > Ceres > Callisto > Maybe Titan. However the last "Legs" would almost certainly require the inclusion of Nuclear power.
But after that, turning to Mercury, it could be hoped that Mercury could supply enormous amounts of these orbital habitation and power devices to Venus, and itself. Those being hotter would need appropriate modifications to suit the environment(s).
But then haveing habitations in the Hill Sphere of Venus (Including Venus "L1"), it may be possible to force the cloud deck downward in the atmospheric column. At that point I would be much more comfortable with atmospheric floating habitats in the Venus atmosphere.
2) As I said above, "Quote":
But I feel Mercury would be a long way off. The Earth/Moon will have a vastly bigger labor pool. It being easier to use solar wind and photons to propulse away from the sun, then I hope for a leapfrog method from Earth/Moon > Mars > Ceres > Callisto > Maybe Titan. However the last "Legs" would almost certainly require the inclusion of Nuclear power.

Leapfrogging wold involve using the solar wind and perhaps photons to move a habitat first from Earth/Moon to Martian orbit. I guess you could spiral, or if you have a more active propulsion, then you may intersect the Martian gravity well and use a ballistic Capture to Martian orbit. There such a device may stay, to access the Martian moons. However some might then resupply, and head for Ceres. After that, perhaps Callisto and Titan.
These platforms being worlds of their own, Starships may travel to and from them at a quicker speed.
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Cycling spaceships. Well these platforms could be/do that as well. And with the potential of ballistic capture they could jump out of solar orbit and into Martian orbit for a while, if there was such a desire to do it.
When then deciding to "Unhook" from Martian orbit, of course there is the problem of how to get the low part of an eliptical orbit to intersect the Earth/Venus/Mars. Methods required. Gravity assists could be part of that.
-----
There are so many unknowns for future technology, that is would be unwise to either say these things can or cannot be done or are or arenot worth it. We don't know. But it is a field of possibilities.
Done.

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-14 06:29:56

For SpaceNut .... can you help Void here?

His imgur.com links need the image wrapping, and Void doesn't seem to have quite mastered the technique.

Void, the next time you post an image to imgur.com, try clicking on the image after it is installed in your account. It will be easy for you to discover the correct click to apply. Try one, and if it works, good! If is does something else, close whatever that is and try the other click.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-14 07:41:48

For Void ...

Would you be willing to think about the problem posed earlier today, in the California fires topic?

There is a need for humans to manage the flow of fresh water from the oceans to land. At present, Nature does a haphazard and generally unsatisfactory job.

It occurred to me that since water is evaporated from the surface of oceans all over the planet (all bodies of water of course, but oceans are the ultimate source), it would make sense to capture the fresh clean water before it rises to make clouds, where it becomes part of the haphazard water distribution system we have inherited from Nature.

Thus, a dome of plastic (or glass, but plastic seems more likely for several reasons) might be set over a patch of ocean. The Sun's energy would pass through the plastic to the ocean surface, where it would stimulate molecules of water to break away from their fellows and waft up into the air.

My concept is that the water molecules would condense on the walls of the plastic dome, and then slide down to collecting trays along the inside bottom of the enclosure. That water would be pumped into underwater collecting bags, from which it would be retrieved periodically by automated submarine equipment.

Everything in this concept would be solar powered, which should please some forum members.

(th)

Void · 2020-09-14 12:40:00

I appreciate your help (th) and others. However I will leave the imgur thing for later. I am, for now satisfied that I can if needed provide a visual. I have some other things I need to devote my time to for the rest of the month.
But, that does not stop me from posting here and there.
------
I have an addition to make, for Mars. I often try not to work on the same problems as others do, as I do not want to contaminate what discovery they might make.
In this post I will be looking at a specific method of "Common Plain" orbital methods to promote the human utilization of Mars. Tuned for Mars.
A big problem for Mars could be energy. Solar is weak per the Earth's, and seasons longer, and then Dust Storms.
Where for Earth we might think to have geosynchronous power sattelites, for Mars, we might want something else. Different orbits would allow much more solar power, and I think that some orbits would make it possible to dump energy in a burst at high latitudes, even in winter, which could be valuable.
I have been thinking about how you would store the energy for such power bursts to the ground. Batteries, likely too expensive and with other problems. But I realized that for the posting I have made, there are "Flywheels" incorporated into the Common Plain strucutures that I have proposed. So there you may use those to generate the power bursts. I am thinking that of course Microwave transmissions being the orbit to ground connections for the energy.
I think it would be possible to have variable 'g' forces in those synthetic gravity devices, and still to maintain the health of the orbital population.
Two things that people may cringe at:
1) For Earth migrating from orbit to surface and back again seems rather costly. And it is. But we are talking Mars, where only a Starship is needed.
2) The Radiation issue. Well, I am thinking that we will be much more successful at having bags of ice and CO2 ice for that, in orbit. Taken from the Martan environment. Granted eventually there could also be magnetic shielding, but Ice and CO2 blocks shipped up in Starship(s), would be a more constant and certain thing.
It has been proposed that ice can be used for surface habitats (With the inclusion of protective transparancies).
I believe that even in Earth orbits, the space shuttle had ice buildups if they vented water in the shadows of the vehicle. How much easier should it be to keep ice and maybe even dry ice, in Martian orbit, if it is sheltered by shading?
Of course, I approve of what SpaceX plans for the intial Starship, even though I have suggested some potential variants over time.
Mars direct is likely the best way to start up on Mars, unless, other entities chip in to make Mars orbital depots immediatly available.
And of course where I am going is to also bring relatively innert substances such as water ice and dry ice to orbit to serve as shielding for radiation, but also feedstock for generating propellants in orbit.
Perhaps various kinds nuclear will become available for the surface of Mars, and that is fine, but for a planet like Mars that you might want to settle and terraform, I think that it would be hard to ever say you had too much energy.
In the later future, lets suppose that you might have specialized Starships. One of them being specifically for Mars Surface <> Low Martian Orbit. And you had another type of interplanetary craft which was tunned to do the interplanetary segment. The interplanetary ship might aerobrake to orbit, and could be refueled in orbit.
As for the Mars Surface <> Low Martian Orbit, it might also refuel in order to land cargo, (or not, if it is crewed).
Another thing I have had my eye on is Olympus Mons, the cauldera. While it would be uncertan to impossible to get water there, your specialized Mars Surface <> Low Martian Orbit might also be able to "Hop" water ice to that location, and of course various atmospheric gasses are available at that location. Can I assert that it is worth it? No, I can only say lets have a look at it.
If your main settlement is at some high latitude, then you have a relatively dense atmosphere to land, and presumably ice and propellants ready. Then you may load it up with Ice. Hop to lower latitudes, specifically Olympus Mons, more or less a powered landing, not much atmosphere to help you. You deliver some of the ice to that location for future propellants. You fill up on propellants and Dry Ice, and you launch to orbit from a high altitude, and a low latitude which will have some advantages, (The orbital spin and altitude). You delive the ice and CO2. The top of Olympus Mons would be one of the last places covered by dust storms.
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The Microwave energy bursts from the orbital Common Plains structures. I would hope that some orbits could actually have "Line of sight" to even the polar ice caps.
Your recievers could be either rectennas, or ice covered mid latitude seas. Or it might be possible to create a water table inside of the Martian ice caps, and have ice covered rivers. Particularly in the south ice cap. This might also reduce the CO2 ice cap(s).
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This method would allow Mars to recieve the benefits of light passing through most of it's hill sphere, which could greatly change its climate, and also power a civilization.
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Balistic Capture, does not require aerobraking, but it can use it as well if desired.
It is a longer flight, but also has more permissions per time to launch.
The two bigest concerns for a long flight are radiation and zero g medical problems. However with a Common Plain method as I have suggested those problems are much remediated. But this does not forbid a Starship > Mars Hohmann > aerobrake > landing.
I think that Mars as a civilization will be much more robust with orbital structure of large significance.
A local Starship method of: "Low Surface > Olympus Mons > Low Orbit > Low Surface, (Repeat), makes a lot of sense to me".
Done.

Void · 2020-09-15 11:56:05

Water World:
https://imgur.com/a/DtpzHiZ
I have been contemplating flywheel devices in orbit, and how they could also fulfil other useful things.
The above is my best I think.
While we could have some filled with CO2, Methane, Oxygen, and Hydrogen, the above does the most.
It is a Flywheel, a habitat, a greenhouse, and radiation and thermal protection. And indeed with an excess of thermal energy gathered would also be a power generating device as well, if so designed.
These would likely be connected to a Common Plain in counter rotating pairs.
Done.

Void · 2020-09-17 11:33:14

Reference Materials:
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/overview/
Moons of Mars, ice, NASA
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/scie … eimos.html
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

Porosity, Phobos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … ice.rosity:
Demos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Demos Moon porosity? Guess from reading, up to 60%, maybe.
Alright, I had a link to a NASA document, suggesting that up to 60% of the Martian moons are voids. And it suggested that ice could be in there. I am thinking that that is optimistic. Unfortunately I cannot recover that article. Lost it when trying to clean my system so that I can brouse the internet without insane delays.
Anyway, it is not a show stopper. The ice is or is not there. Hydrated minerals are likely incorporated in some of those materials. If not, then Mars has lots of water ice.
This now interests me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
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So, I have another version for orbit.
Here, I want to try to use Pycrete as an element of the structure. To be sure, the outer skin must have significant tensile strength. But the Brown represents frozen and unfrozen soil. That closer to the outer wall should be firmly frozen, and that near the "Blue" water should be thawed.
This structure should have good radiation protection from both Solar and GCR radiation. The ends where the light is to come in, may be, in part, protected by the other structures composing the Common Plain, that this "Flywheel" should be attached to. I have not depicted the needed bearing and strut structure.
I am thinking that this could be ideal for various kinds of water crops. Rice and Wild Rice come to mind.
Of course for Pycrete you want soil, water, and perhaps some kind of large to tiny rebar kind of structures, not necessarily made of metals. For instance Straw might in part fill the need.
The windows are not well defined either in this description. I guess you punt, and figure out what works best.
And strange as it may be, you could paddle a canoe in Martian orbit through Wild Rice fields.
The device is indeed a flywheel, so motors and generators would be included for that reason.
And another thing that is strange to think of is if you were in a canoe, then that canoe and you would be an energy storage device along with the rest of the cylinder.
-------
I mentioned the Martian moons in the references, as for all we know at this point they are:
1) Bone dry with vacuum filled voids.
2) No ice, but Hydrated Minerals with Carbon.
3) Ice and Hydrated Minerals with Carbon.
So, in any case building materials if you have the other parts. Water you could get from Mars, or perhaps rather Hydrogen to join to moon Oxygen to make water. The straw, you could grow in such cylinders.
And while you are mining the moons you would mine them from inside out, (But not completely), and could then install spinning habitats inside of them as well.
-----
Frankly I think that this is a much better Mars. Unlike Earth, Mars is at the edge of space, and nearer the asteroid main belt. Such methods should suit it well.
And as I have stated in previous posts, these Common Plain platforms would be able to store energy in the flywheels during an orbit, and then dump it in a burst into a location on the Martian surface desired. Cities here and there.
And there are no dust storms in orbit.
I would like to see a city in the Northern Plains, and also one in the Hellas Depression. So only one city can be in winter at a time.
Energy during the winter from orbit should make things much better in the winters.
------
Here is an image of a method that may have mertit:
https://imgur.com/bbuBwZu
Reference:
Orbital Power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power
So, I think that this method could work out well from Earth/Moon orbit all the way out to Callisto.
It may be particularly good for Mars, as you could send a burst of energy to the ground at a particular point on the Martian surface where you have some important activity that could use it.
I will confess, that I am thinking that microwaves will not penetrate dust storms well. However if the reciever of the energy was an ice covered body of water, then you have stored energy for a later date, even during a dust storm.
------
The energy burst method allows these devices to be in a much lower orbit that geosync.
That then would better allow the connection of the Martian surface to the machines.
As I have said I think a northern basin city should also have a sibling in Hellas. Now, and particularly when some terraforming is done, Hellas will be the best place to land a "Starship", per air braking.
I think of a specialized Starship. Since it would not have to launch to another planet, its propellant tanks could be smaller, and so that would reduce dry mass and perhaps enable more cargo Mars>Orbit.
If it seems sensible, I would also like to remention the idea of a base on the top of Olympus Mons. I don't really know my way around this stuff except crudely. I am hoping that a sub-orbital flight could launch from the lowlands and up to that cauldera, without too much propellants being wasted on hovering. If this would work, it might be worth it. As I said in a previous post, although you may or may not be able to access water on the top of Olympus Mons, (There is some notion of rock glaciers up there), you might bring water or Hydrogen up there, and everything else atmospheric would be available. CO2, Nitrogen, Argon. A refinery there could generate various propellants. So, if this actually paid off then perhaps the specialized Starship/Hopper, could have even smaller propellant tanks, as it would refuel on top of the mountain, and then launch to orbit.
In the case where it turned out to be effective to generate propellants for the Starship in orbit, particularly Oxygen, from the moons of Mars, the special Starship/Hopper would not even have to bring much of it's propellants for landing up to orbit. That then frees up more cargo lift.
I think that is a lot.
Done.

Void · 2020-09-19 20:59:05

Alright. I am very interested in the Martian moons, and the Hill Sphere of Mars.
I believe that I have concieved of a machine that could extract the dust layer from the surface of Demos and/or Phobos. My desire is to concieve of how to convert those moons into both a different kind of Common Plain, and also how to mine them. I would not like to strip mine them any more than is necessary to start that. There after I would like to mine them from the insides.
However, I think that one of the important moves to get there would be to find large slabs or rock or even ice, (Should it exist), and make mechanical attachments to them.
Step 1 would be to scan the moons to detect what is inside of them.
Step 2 would be to remove the till deep enough to get to any such firm anchors. And the machine I have in mind, or an improvement of it should be able to help do that.
Step 3 would be to put mechanical anchored struts into them, in order to build a external/internal Common Plain.
Note: I did have an earlier notion about how to create an anchor in loose rubble with harpoons. They would be rocket powered and likely would have spring loaded barbs that would fold against the shaft during penetration but would spring out upon recoil. I don't rule out using such also.
------
I am not going to present the machine yet. I may still think of improvements, and it is hard to draw decently. Also, I have other things to do and am short on time just now.
------
We really don't know of the nature of those moons. Are large slabs included? Is there ice, and why might there be?
I have also thought to myself that if you put dry soil and larger chunks of rock in a bottle and shake it, the fines come to the top, typically, and the bigger chunks tend to sink. These moons are acted on my tidal forces, so I think that big pieces may tend to be deep. Also, I am hoping that asteroid core materials may be there, as the heaviest, and there may be hydrated mineral chunks.
As for ice, it seems that some NASA articles suggest that they may have a lot of ice. But we don't know. The interiors are going to be warmer than are the shadowed craters of the Moon or Mercury, so I had trouble reasoning how ice could be there. But I have a notion now.
Mercury is thougt to get 90% of it's water from impactors. But 10% is thought to be form protons in the solar wind embedding themself in the regolith. The day is though to be hot enough to cause water to be created as a secondary action. I would think the magnetic field of Mercury does resist the solar wind, so perhaps the water has a greater ability to migrate to the polar shadowed craters.
The Moon is thought to be similar, but the sunlight is not enough to generate water there in the day. Instead, it is thought that tiny impactors provide the energy to make water. No magnetic field of any magnitude, but even so, it may seem that some of that water gets to the polar shadowed crators.
Note: Both Mercury and the Moon have very extended days, which might be bad for making the water hang around to get to the poles.
This following is just speculation, but both of the Moons have much shorter days. And I read that high noon gets as warm as a winter day in Chicago, which is rather cold still. The nights are very cold, maybe not as cold as for Mercury and the Moon though.
There is also the possibility that being closer to the asteroid belt, and Jupiter which can perturb dust from asteroids, there may be many more impactors, which can "Bake" water out of the solar wind and regolith.
We also have the apparent fact that the Martian moons are fluffy, possibly very deep down. Lots of voids Those are either hollow vacuum or in some cases perhaps filled with ice.
After the creation of water, it would vibrate in a relativly random walk, and perhaps it could be true that those that vibrate further inside of the moons will quiet their vibrations, and perhaps even condense into ice???
Where we might think that the solar wind might sweep it away if it tries to vibrate into space, I am wondering if it would actually tend to "Pin" the water molecules into the soil, maybe even push it into the porous soil.
I have some problem believing that the debths of these moons will be cold enough for such condensation, but we have already been surprised by the extent of ice on Mars itself, perhaps even near the equator. Perhaps we don't know all of natures tricks yet.
------
The machine I am going to propose, (another day), will drop down on the moons, and collect fine regolith, and even smaller rocks. It would then launch back to propper orbit and make that material available to an orbital "Common Plain" assembly where there will be synthetic gravity so that the materials can be treated in similar ways that we might do on the surface of the Earth.
So, my machine, and also the common plain assemblys will be needing a thrust method. And so, I have figured out a new use for the CO2 ice caps. I know that the Vasimir method is not liked around this neighborhood for a method for interplanetary travel, but working in the hill sphere of Mars, and the moons within it it should be a good choice to look at.
I can imagine a special type of Starship, which could bring hardware down from orbit, and bring up dry ice. And dry ice is abundant in the winters of Mars in many places. Much of the hardware could be delivered using Ballistic Capture. Or if it was mastered then using a hohmann transfer and aerocapture, although I am aware that that would be a tricky thing.
And I am also wondering if CO2 could be ejected from a nuclear rocket in a useful way?
I would like to also inject some hot Hydrogen, into the mix, but the chemical reactons may be a problem. CO2 has a lot more mass, but the Hydrogen would have a lot more vibration. I would like to know about the potential results of an attempt to combine them in a nuclear rocket.
------
As I have said before, I think we need to appreciate just how much easier it would be to connect surface and orbital activities of the Martian sub system. We could have spinning habitats in orbit, which would give us a full 1 g when that is desired. And also lesser g forces as well.
As for radiation, I have shown shielding methods in prior posts of this topic. We would have regolith from the moons, and for that matter dry ice. Water would come from the moons or if necessary Hydrogen from Mars itself to generate water.
And there will be no winters or dust storms in orbit.
The machine will use centrifugal force, and electrostatic forces, also very likely magnetic forces.
Done.

Void · 2020-09-22 18:53:49

A few days ago I made this drawing and found that spirals don't work so well for me in Paint.
For your amusement: (It took 2 minites so......).
My first concept:
https://i.imgur.com/oY4l6cp.png
And that machine would have a spiral foot, and a centrifugal flying saucer for collection of materials from Martian Moons. Ahh.....Ya, good start, but not real yet.
So, how about a three main piece notion.
1) Weighted cart, which indicates over the surface linear motion with a hollow body needing to be filled with regolith for weight. Desperately needing some gravitational recoginized weight. It will have a docking port of large size that a two part apparatus may connect to.
Wheels, Legs? Whatever.
2) A flying saucer, (sort of) centrifuge, that will collect the soil disturbed. It will involve centrigugal methods, and magnetic methods. In concert with #1, it will utilize electrostatic methods.
3) Between #1 and #2 would be a spindel section, it will travel with the #2 Saucer part. It will have rocket thrusters, perhaps using CO2. It will also have "Agitators" for the annoyance of soil which does not easily take the desired short ballistic paths desired, so to be intended to land in the centrifugal grip of the spinning saucer item #2. Electrostatics, Magnetics, and physical agitation to be included in the whole structure to achive the collection method(s).
------
I guess we could try this:
https://i.imgur.com/dfvUWuf.png
The spindel section will be connected to the spinning disc section by bearings, and will be able to seat into the docking port of #1, in a vertical landing fashion.
I guess the idea is to stir up dirt and rocks and get them into the centrifugal saucer. Magnitism, electric fields, and just plain agitation by various devices are intended to induce the travel from the ground into the centrifucal collecting saucer.
Be tollerant. This is representational of a multi-dimension process, with various "Tools" employed. Not an engineering drawing.
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My intention is to draw mass from the surface coating of the two moons, to a purpose in Martian orbit. Also, I would hope to expose large rock surfaces to anchor to.
I also understand that the simple cart I depicted could get "Stuck". It is to represent a weigted device that can move across the surface. Perhaps it will have legs. Whatever it takes.
------
I see no reason to be isolated to the surface of Mars, if we might go to Mars. So much more could be achieved.
But I am going to take a rest. Maybe in a few days more words.
Done.

Ha Ha, if I wait a few days I can get right into the site.

Void · 2020-09-23 18:40:06

I would need to propose at this point, that Starship, and it's eventual competitors, will not only be for sending loads to the surface of Mars. If they even get 1/2 the performance that they hope for, it will change things greately for the Earth/Moon system, per hardware and propellants available off Earth.
A question that may need answering will be "Is it better to use the Moons gravity, or to build many synthetic gravity devices in orbit?". I think that it is worth noting that it is not impossible that centrifuges for human health may be possible on the Moons surface, with magnetic levitation. Down the road. And medicine suggests that it just might be possible to regulate muscle mass and bone density in such as the 1/6th g of the Moon. That then asks if the Moons gravity is enough to avoid blood pooling in the upper body, and along with that eye damage??? If so, then I would opt for much to be on the Moon. There is so much that is unknown, that I feel it is much too soon to pour major concrete foundations about how to go about inhabitating what we can reach in the universe.
There is not so much a prefered outcome for that, just honest discovery of what works best and when and where.
------
Something that the members here seem very uncomfortable with is methods to augment the capabilities of Starship.
1) Ballistic Capture methods, not requiring a heat shield for the Mars arrival, but then probably requiring it for return to Earth.
2) Augmented boost methods for a Starship.
I support the SpaceX design for the basic Starship. Earth>Mars, with suicide dive. It is good if it has this minimum capability. A good "Yardstick" or for "Those other people", a "Meterstick"
But per #1 with #2 above, it is obvious that you might use a Starship as a tug. You have three vacuum engines, all you need is a barge assembly, and with #1, and #2, you may play some significant games, at least with hardware deliveries. I feel that the vacuum engines may be underutilized. You got them to orbit. Presumably the Earth supplys the Methane, and we might hope that the Moon supplies LOX. (Liquid Oxygen). Now imagine building very large propellant tanks somewhere. It is eventually possible that propellants can come from elsewhere. Asteroids? Phobos and Demos? We don't know at this point.
But if our interests could be for the whole Martian "Hill Sphere", I would suggest this:
You have a functional Starship in orbit with 3 vaccum Rapor engines. Why just fire only the propellants in it's internal tanks? You could have a "Barge" with very large tanks "Made In Space". You could include hardwares that you wanted for the Martian surface and for the Martian Hill Sphere.
Your 3 vacuum Raptor engines may be able to fire and fire and fire and fire.......Going to a Ballistic Capture, which by the way does not have the same timing alignment constraints that the Hohmann method does.
Maybe this is without crew, actually easier that way. But lets not eliminate options yet, until we discover what is allowed by reality.
So, you deliver a bunch of stuff, way more than an interplanetary Starship could do on it's own. Some for the Martian surface and some for the Hillsphere of Mars, which of course includes Phobos and Demos.
And why should I be too specific. We don't know Mars well enough, and we absolutely don't have enough info on Phobos and Demos.
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My previous post gives a very basic outline of a possible method to extract materials from those moons, with the intention of getting into the interiors where even better things might exist. In a simple fashion I suggested magnetics and electrostatics, and centrifugal force methods. It should be noted that the magnetics can be AC, and curiously by the rotation of the centrifugal device, and by imposed magnetic fields. I am familiar with concentrating magnetic materials, separating them from non-magnetic materials. It is very possible that this could be arranged within the device I suggested in the previous post.
So, if you could get a "Concentrate" of magnetic materials, you might subject it to a "Mond" process to extract the Iron and Nickle. The remnant might be then subjected to some method to extract Oxygen, to lower it's mass. At that point it may be suitable to bring back to the Earth/Moon subsystem, to further process. And just maybe $$$ for that.
The non-magnetic materials as tailings may hold interesting contents involving Hydrogen. So, bake it if that is true, and the the Hydrogen related compounds. Some Carbon is expected.
And then the tailings can be radiation shielding along with some water, if we are fortunate, inside of the barge propellent tanks that got delivered to the Martian Hill Sphere.
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No gaurantees here, just trying to move from the Miocipic to Macroscopic view. We discover what we discover and then can act upon such a reality as presents itself.
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A way to start?
https://i.imgur.com/Uskmo93.png

Got away with it again Ha Ha.

Done.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2020-09-05 12:39:28

The Unifying Common Plain

#2 2020-09-05 19:55:52

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#3 2020-09-08 10:27:59

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#4 2020-09-08 10:37:14

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#5 2020-09-08 11:57:16

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#6 2020-09-10 11:08:23

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#7 2020-09-10 11:09:56

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#8 2020-09-10 11:11:55

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#9 2020-09-10 11:35:50

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#10 2020-09-12 14:21:38

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#11 2020-09-12 19:41:24

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#12 2020-09-12 19:58:17

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#13 2020-09-13 11:41:45

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#14 2020-09-13 12:11:19

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#15 2020-09-13 14:19:25

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#16 2020-09-13 15:06:35

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#17 2020-09-13 20:50:52

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#18 2020-09-14 06:29:56

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#19 2020-09-14 07:41:48

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#20 2020-09-14 12:40:00

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#21 2020-09-15 11:56:05

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#22 2020-09-17 11:33:14

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#23 2020-09-19 20:59:05

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#24 2020-09-22 18:53:49

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

#25 2020-09-23 18:40:06

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

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