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#51 2020-12-08 07:44:28

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For kbd512 re #50

Your post summarizes what Guaranteed Basic Income is intended to do.

My expectation is that the vast majority of Americans would exert themselves to find ways to help others with whatever talents they have, on the one hand, and the number of Americans who let themselves fall into decay of various kinds would decrease, on the other.

The studies I have seen show that most human beings who receive a basic income use it frugally.

** Every ** American who is retired (with few exceptions) is living on a form of Guaranteed Basic Income.  A significant number of those do volunteer work of various kinds to enjoy the benefits of productive activity and social interaction.

My expectation is that many young people will seek to achieve educational goals in order to achieve their goals in life.

I noticed in the collection of graphs that SpaceNut posted recently, one graph in particular that showed a massive predominance of wealthy people in the United States compared to every other nation.  That tells me that the conditions that exist (have existed and hopefully still exist) favor achievement that leads to wealth accumulation.

(th)

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#52 2020-12-08 16:45:46

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,015

Re: Climbing out of poverty

I feel the need to point out a few things (th).

My SSI is like a certain type of annuity or if you like insurance.  I paid premiums all my working life for it.

In some annuities, you might buy it, and when you redeem it, then you have an option in many cases to get payments for life.  Under those terms, you cannot pass the value of the annuity to anyone else, and under those terms, you get more money per month payment.

I was required to buy this annuity, and it does have a bit of cost of living adjustments, but I have paid for it.  It is not very much different from the type of annuity I have described.  It comes from "Deferred Wages".

And they taxed the money going in, and to a large extent they tax it coming out, but the terms of taxation coming out can be better if you have a lower income.

My Medicare Part A, is also an annuity I paid for.  My part B cost comes out of my SSI.  Its about $1200 a year for the Part B, coming off of my SSI automatically.  I have to buy my own parts C and D.

------

Some people who get disability SSI, do not have to have a full working life.  There are two types of that.  If you have enough working credit you get one where you can have income and own significant property.  The lesser plan is very restrictive on how much income you can have and how much property you may have.

-----

Never the less I am open to discussions about a guaranteed income for some people.  We already have welfare and Medicaid, food stamps, and other such things.  It might be easier to just have a guaranteed income.

I also think that per medical and nutrition and other health affecting issues, it would be better to be proactive to keep people in good shape rather than to wait for them to develop chronic illnesses.  Better for the people and better for the final costs.  However I am only receptive to ideas about a guaranteed income, as we will likely have a coming social order where automation and robotics will be much more significant.

But even with a guaranteed income it is to be expected that some people would make shipwrecks out of their lives anyway.

That can't be helped.   You could give some people 1,000,000 dollars and they would just turn it into drug problems.

Some people also just don't know how to take care of themselves and their affairs, so they would have to be handled different.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-12-08 16:53:26)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#53 2020-12-08 17:49:06

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

tahanson43206,

What I'm getting at is the fact that our government is printing arbitrary amounts of money for direct transfer to people who don't need it.  Universal Basic Income requires people to hold Universal Basic Jobs, according to skill and experience.  In this universe, there's no such thing as a "free" lunch- it requires energy and labor that isn't "free", at least until we achieve Star Trek level technology.  No system functions through arbitrary assignment of wealth without labor and material input.  That's the exact problem we're having now.  We have very wealthy people using their wealth to influence government-sponsored transfers of public wealth to them, without doing anything specific in return for the money given to them by our government.  I do not agree with the picking of winners and losers, which is essentially what our government is doing now.  I don't care if the government cuts a check to everyone, irrespective of wealth, for some specified amount, but that's not what they did.  This is not specific to political party, either.  The Democrats crafted the language of the legislation to pay off their donors, both Democrats and Republicans voted on it (voice vote, to protect the guilty), and then our President signed it into law.  The one thing both parties can always agree on, is paying off their donors.  We, the people, always seem to end up with the short straw.  I'm getting tired of it.  The poor deserve economic relief as well.  If the wealthy took the money and used it to keep everyone employed, then I could care less.  That's not what they're doing, at least not universally.  All ordinary working class stiffs should get their Christmas check for putting up with our government's malarkey.

If you give someone who is already a billionaire another billion dollars, then it should be for some contractually negotiated purpose, for example, building a power station or waste water treatment facility or making cars, etc.  For example, with this billion dollars of public money, you will employ "X" number of people to make "Y" number of cars in time frame "Z", but there has to be a market for the cars produced, or you end up squandering resources, in the same way that China has built entire cities where nobody lives.  You can't do random things with money and expect a good result, and that's why we have very wealthy and very poor people.  It's not a matter of education or intelligence, either.  You either know how to handle money or you don't.  If you don't, then life will be hard in a society that requires lots of money to lead a comfortable life.  Anyway, economies don't function on arbitrary demand and supply.  That's really what a command economy is- arbitrarily dictated demand and supply levels that does a terrible job of simply meeting basic needs, which is exactly why so many people starve to death in communist countries.

These are temporary measures to get the economy back on track, not a convenient excuse to derail free market capitalism in favor of wealth redistribution / socialism (I'm advocating for making up for socialism for corporations by extending their lobbying-induced "benefits package" to ordinary citizens), which has never succeeded anywhere it's been tried, not even in communist China, which now uses free market principles because command economies are such miserable failures.

Command economics doesn't even work for our military.  When Congress forces our Army to pay for upgrades to main battle tanks when what they really need is artillery systems that can "reach out and touch someone" from at least 100 miles away, the tax payer is forced to pay for things the Army doesn't need because they can't use it in a fight against a peer level adversary.  The conduct of a war can't be dictated to the military without egregiously bad results.  If your enemy has shells and rockets that can hit a target 100 miles away, then your tanks may never get within striking distance of the enemy before they're disabled or destroyed by artillery.  In short, the enemy gets a vote in how you respond to them.

Retirement income is not "free".  The retiree paid money into that system by working for most of their adult life.  When there were ten or more active and productive workers for every retiree, that system functioned just fine.  When the worker-to-retiree ratio is reversed, that doesn't work at all.  No amount of magical thinking will ever overcome a basic math problem such as that one.  Unless we have Star Trek level technology, it still doesn't work when there's no such thing as money.

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#54 2020-12-30 21:29:47

SpaceNut
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Posts: 23,908

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Money paid into that system is also at the start of the pay in of lower value than which in later years hen you want to claim its value at the new higher rate is part of the issues as well as you at that point are using an equalizing formula to value that money in a weighted form.

Investing in a home once upon a time was also a way forward to get equity back from living and working to keep property you owned in good or better shape than what you get it at but with the taxation occurring for todays values every 5 years or so for new market values you are losing money due to paying a hire taxes for what will be not necessarily there when you chose to sell that home...

Now with the next homes not being modular or a motor home or a trailer we now have a new category called tiny homes which in some towns are being classed if its still got the wheels to move it as being an RV or motor home even if there is no motored vehicle contained with it...
A woman who parked her tiny house on her parents' property in New Hampshire was forced to move out after the local government said it was illegal

Realistically its a trailer if their home is towed to a location for use...

She learned that her house broke several zoning ordinances: It had no formal plumbing, it had only one form of egress, and it was too close to the property line.

"There is no building code for tiny houses, so you have to get an occupancy permit to get it zoned," O'Brien said. "It's a cycle that feeds into itself. Without a building code, it automatically breaks any zoning ordinances."

O'Brien decided to fight for an occupancy permit and get her house properly zoned. She put together a presentation explaining how she would fix the ordinances she broke and prove that her tiny house was a viable and safe place to live full time.

464aa773e3543f86ba4810913b5fe4a0

Not seeing anything related to a motor for the zoning boards to call it an RV....

Well I have seen real homes in worst shape than this one and if its connected to town approved services its should have been fine once moved away from the property line to the required setback....

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#55 2020-12-31 16:50:57

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut,

I thought more government was the answer to all of life's little problems.

In the case of the tiny home, it almost seems as if too much government caused the problem.

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#56 2020-12-31 18:50:23

SpaceNut
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

I would agree zoning and approval boards have to much power on how you can use your land. Then again that's a bad neighbor.

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#57 2021-01-10 11:52:35

Quaoar
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Registered: 2013-12-13
Posts: 600

Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut wrote:

I would agree zoning and approval boards have to much power on how you can use your land. Then again that's a bad neighbor.

Someone might be led to think that private property is only an illusion and the states are the real owners of everything, like in the former Soviet Union.

Last edited by Quaoar (2021-01-10 11:53:26)

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#58 2021-07-27 12:27:46

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re re-viewing of this topic ...

An article by a historian about the Little Ice Age was posted in another topic today.

In the closing paragraph, the historian attempted to try to draw insight from the experiences of our ancestors when afflicted with the effects of climate change.

In passing, the historian made reference to "the poor", and that reference reminded me of your interest in poverty.

We have three topics that contain the word ...

Topic    Forum    Replies    Last post
Will we have poverty on Mars? by louis
Martian Politics and Economy    11    2021-07-25 16:40:02 by SpaceNut

Why do we have Poverty in America by SpaceNut [ 1 2 3 … 24 ]
Not So Free Chat    593    2021-07-24 17:53:39 by SpaceNut

Climbing out of poverty by SpaceNut [ 1 2 3 ]
Not So Free Chat    56    2021-01-10 13:52:35 by Quaoar
Pages:

The historian shows there is another aspect to the concept of poverty ....

In your topic here, whether you intended to so so or not, you put ALL the responsibility for poverty on the people who are caught up in the state.

The historian (appears to have) reminded us that there are two sides to that coin.

The successful cultures he studied cared for the poor, and as a result, the culture rebounded and thrived after adversity.

So I would offer for your consideration that moving from poverty to whatever is above it can/should involve both lifting and pushing.

Education is a time honored way of lifting humans out of otherwise inevitable poverty.

A way to guarantee continued poverty is to deny or prevent education.

Edit#1: Another way to continue poverty is to refuse education when it is offered, or fail to achieve it even though attempted.

I am approaching this topic (within the universe of forum topics) because of the potential of Calliban's thinking to alleviate poverty for all humans on Earth, by harnessing atomic energy in a humane, productive way.

I get the impression that there are some groups who actively work to insure poverty of others.

Clearly there are other groups who are actively working to prevent poverty (teachers are an example).

I'm interested in your thoughts about the possibility there might be some humans who ** want ** to see others in poverty, and act to insure it.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-27 14:19:00)

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#59 2021-07-27 19:33:50

SpaceNut
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

climate change = global warming by another set of identifiers....
the free chat topic of perversions of science is that topic.

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#60 2021-07-28 07:36:10

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut ... this is a topic you created, so you can guide it's progress...

However, your post #69 appears to be about climate change.

If you want to talk about how climate change will increase poverty, that would probably make sense.  Efforts to address climate change offer the potential to increase both the quantity and quality of employment, which ** should ** act to reduce poverty.

The issue at hand is how to organize groups of people to increase employment at a rate greater than climate change reduces it, and to take care of the members of the population who cannot contribute, either because they are too young, too old or unable to contribute for any of a number of other reasons.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-28 07:39:57)

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#61 2021-07-28 19:05:18

SpaceNut
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

The climate (as introduced in post 58) as it pertains to where you live, housing type ect may be part of the reason one remains in poverty as the levels of income are not enough for when you need those funds to heat or cool what you live in and if thats electrical heat or cooling you now are at the mercy of electricity's cost from the supplier.

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#62 2021-07-28 21:00:12

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #61

The point of the article to which I pointed a link was to suggest that successful societies take care of their poor.

The details of climate change (ice age or now) are not the point ... the point is in line with the purpose of this topic....

Poverty cannot exist unless the society in which it exists ** allows ** it to exist.

Terraformer put his finger on a key concept .... he spoke of "hand outs" ....

That is the attitude of a society that is perfectly willing to allow poverty to not only exist but to grow without restraint.

(th)

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#63 2021-07-28 21:39:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 23,908

Re: Climbing out of poverty

There is a difference between helping one get back on your feet and a handout as one has no expectation for you to what is needed to change the situation while the other is take with nothing for a follow up which is while welfare is a problem.

so rather than taring down the homeless shelter of a tent or shed Los Angeles City Council voted in favor of anti-homelessness ordinance that would impact roughly 40,000 unhoused Angelenos to be pushed out of the city instead.

The measure restricts "sitting, lying, or sleeping or storing, using, maintaining, or placing personal property in the public right-of-way."

What's next a one-way bus ticket to Timbuctoo.

The need access to services not denial to get to them....

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#64 2021-07-29 07:20:35

tahanson43206
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #63

Thank you for returning to the main track of this important topic.  The direction I am heading (or at least ** attempting ** to head) is toward a vision of a society that is sufficiently rich to be able to afford generosity toward all citizens (and even guests).

The United States has (from time to time) shown astonishing generosity towards it's own citizens, and towards Earth residents elsewhere.

However, there is a strong current of selfishness that runs through the psyche of the Nation along side and intermixed with the impulse toward generosity.

I am pursuing the ideas of Calliban precisely because an abundance of energy is the key to overcoming the strong impulse toward selfishness that runs in every community, and quite possibly has a presence in the mind of every human.

The situation you described in post #63 is playing out across the US and (as nearly as I can tell) across the world.  A lack of generosity, or more accurately, a lack of the means to ** be ** generous, is at the heart of the problem you have cited.

The United States has a great number of failed citizens, in addition to the normal flow of children who are dependent, through adults who are no longer productive and thus dependent.

The portion of the population that **is** productive must support ** all ** members of the population.

Ideally, it would be best if support of non-productive citizens were done without moral judgement.

Unfortunately, a tendency toward moral judgement ** also ** runs strong in the psyche of the citizens of the United States, and I presume elsewhere.

Nothing can be done about individuals who suffer from excessive seizures of moral judgement episodes inside their skulls, but at least if there is abundant energy, the needs of dependent citizens can be met by those who are generous without requiring any grudging imposition upon the selfish.

If you see something in Calliban's work that you can support, please consider doing so.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-29 08:27:45)

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#65 2021-07-29 18:57:28

SpaceNut
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

Going from a society of paying for everything to one where its free to consume will have tremendous push back from those generating a profit since we normally pay for that consumed energy. That would also increase the not working as its free for use as you are not requiring anyone to pay. The current system supports many from the few that work and by setting up the system with free we only increase the pool of those not working as there is no reason to do so.
We need all to work but give a benefit proportional free resources to that works value. So in essence we are giving a person that works at minimum approximate $8 /hr that 15 for having worked those jobs. Of course that balancing for the low end of wages has an upper end where the value is decreased as you wage approaches that real $15.

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#66 2021-07-30 05:44:40

tahanson43206
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #65

Let's take this a step at a time ....

We need all to work

Only in the most primitive societies does everyone have to work, and even in those, babies are not required to work.

Can you provide an example that supports your statement.  You might be right, but I can't think of an example.

The focus of this topic is poverty.  I think this term is of human creation, and is not a "natural" phenomenon that was given a name.

In other words, I believe humans ** created ** the concept of poverty, and are keeping it because it is convenient for those who live in comfort.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-30 05:45:13)

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#67 2021-07-30 19:41:37

SpaceNut
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

Those that have not graduated high school are not part of the working as they are not full time 40 hr a week wage earners. and beyond the age of 67 yrs 7 months give or take for retirement age are not 40 hrs. week wage earners Those working part times are under employed in between those ages and would need to find additional work to get to the 40 hr level. The concept of the 40 hr work week was to give time for family as well as to provide for that family as well as for the retirement years to come. Since we live almost as long as we work then half of your income is slated for when you retire but since social security is taken at 13% of your income you no long can be prepared for life in retirement when you would not work or would work less than 40 hrs in a week. Next figure in inflation and that set aside of 50% is not enough to pay the bills when you retire and will not be enough if earning are not increased to keep up with the inflation so you end up poor again....you are in poverty until you reach the threshold that allows for less that 50% to pay all the bills even after inflation and living cost adjustments for where you live....

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#68 2021-07-30 19:55:58

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #67

Thank you for this review of groups that are able to work in support of the economy.

It is worth keeping in mind as we go forward that there are individuals who live in society (all societies, as nearly as i can tell) who steal from others, or from institutions, or otherwise engage in destructive behavior.  The activities of this segment of society must be covered by those who are productive.

As a point of clarification since you are still too young to draw social security, that stipend is indexed to inflation, unlike distributions from capitalist employers, which are not.

If you are saving via Social Security, ** and ** you are saving by capitalist institutions (other than stocks) you will see your non-social-security savings fade with inflation.

The stock market (on the other hand) has a long term history of beating inflation, but not everyone is invested directly in the market.  Some fortunate individuals are invested in savings plans based upon the stock market, so their savings for retirement have a better than even chance of delivering for the saver.

***
Not having a high school diploma is not necessary a permanent condition.  Society (or at least, the United States) does provide pathways to secure that important certification, albeit with an asterisk.

***
I'd like to introduce Guaranteed Basic Income ....

Some people are opposed to the concept.  Some think it is a good idea.  There are a few experiments here and there on Earth to try out various concepts of how it might work.

If your family received financial assistance during the covid epidemic, then you would have an idea of what GBI feels like.  I understand that the infusion of assistance to millions of people is thought to explain the amazingly fast recovery of the US economy.  The vast majority of recipients poured that money directly into the capitalist flows, and since every dollar is a multiplier as it triggers other purchases, the net effect was dynamic growth.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-30 19:56:59)

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#69 2021-07-30 20:27:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 23,908

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Look out in a nation that sees those living in the out doors as now being a crime. LA Mayor Eric Garcetti signs ordinance criminalizing homelessness following City Council vote in favor of it
The failure to secure no eviction extensions will mean more people will fall into the category of being a criminal....

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#70 2021-08-01 20:12:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,908

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Evictions are coming for those people still not able to pay there rent but with that comes another drop as the unemployed willrun out of time as well.
There’s an unemployment cliff coming. More than 7.5 million may fall off

Federal unemployment programs that have paid jobless benefits since March 2020 are poised to end Sept. 6. It doesn't appear Congress will extend them again.

With that falling off the rolls comes a drop in the unemployment count as the rate will stop counting them...

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#71 2021-08-01 20:30:13

tahanson43206
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Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #70 ....

I heard a report on clogging of flows of relief funds today.  Congress appropriated millions of dollars (US) to help persons who were behind on rent during the pandemic.  Unfortunately (apparently) only a tiny fraction of those funds have reached anyone.  The reporting team working the story interviewed all the participants and even attended a hearing for award of the funds, and came away with an understanding of the dismal bureaucracy between Congress and the people who it was trying to help.  The magistrate explained why she could not grant the award, due to local restrictions and a delinquent landlord.

My response to your post above is to note that the woman seeking help expected to go to homeless shelter with her family.  She clearly deserved the assistance because she met all the requirements from the Congressional point of view, but the landlord had not completed some paperwork so the eviction proceeded.

Terraformer's Quote was about the need for hand outs .... there are a lot of people in the US who are going to need hand outs in the weeks and months ahead.

(th)

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#72 2021-09-06 10:05:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re topic .... here's a good news story ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/missouri-res … 00996.html

Amazon, for example, recently recommended that its delivery partners no longer screen would-be drivers for marijuana use. Other retailers say they're so desperate for staff that they're knowingly employing workers that are rude and scare off customers.

"We had a tightening labor market before the crisis, and the war for talent was already picking up," Diane Swonk, chief economist at Grant Thornton, previously told NBC News. "By both constraining supply and boosting demand, we have put the whole labor market on steroids."

Read the original article on Business Insider

I note that the individual cited showed plenty of initiative.  On the other hand, it appears that organization(s) responded, so (as near as I can tell) we have a Win-Win-Win situation ... Customers are better served (at the new company), the company itself is more competitive, and employee is doing better.

The only loser is the company that failed to adapt, and ultimately (if that trend continues) that particular company will disappear from the American economy as a bad idea poorly executed.

(th)

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#73 2021-09-13 14:54:26

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,093

Re: Climbing out of poverty

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/dyin … 05510.html

Don’t Be Bummed, Be Inspired
My goal was not to depress you if you or your loved ones are in any of these industries. It is just to get you thinking about the future so that you can be on the forefront of the new world with new job opportunities.

This can make for great dinner conversation with your kids. Ask them what they see in the future and what jobs will disappear and what others will be created. Part of being a parent is to help our kids to be resilient to change.

Remember the words of Albert Einstein; “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.”

The article at the link above is about changes to available employment that the author thinks are likely.

While most of the careers cited are in decline already, an underlying theme is that mastery of digital technology appears to have staying power, because the replacement systems all appear (as I read the article) to be computer based.

(th)

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#74 2021-10-03 15:05:34

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,908

Re: Climbing out of poverty

California like NY are doing something simular with vacant property

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … hp&pc=U531

While a roof is a start there needs to be other activity to make a permanent change to peoples lives.

All building where this is done needs to have the social intake to help with changing the items keeping them from being able to support one's self. The buildings need security and rules to keep them safe for the tenants that are to use them.

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#75 2021-10-03 17:19:51

tahanson43206
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut ....

I'm working on a proposal to fund a guaranteed Basic Income using power from nuclear fission to generate income to cover the expense.

Please think about the implications of providing a GBI to every citizen of the US, ** plus ** all the desperate people who are fleeing failed states around the world.

This is (hopefully) not something you'll answer with a few seconds thought.

Folks have written entire books on the subject.

Before someone objects that people need to work to earn their living, I say that the vast majority of people in the United States do ** not ** perform manual labor to earn their living.  Only the folks with the least in the way of assets perform manual labor.

The obvious answer is that the entire world's population could be fed and housed by just a few million people if the effort were coordinated.

The problem of delivering sufficient material and services to the entire population of Earth is a social problem.

It is most definitely NOT a technical problem.

(th)

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