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#26 2020-09-23 20:54:51

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,772

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

Void,

What exactly did you get away with?

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#27 2020-09-24 08:02:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,841

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

For Void (following up on kbd512's #26) ...

Is your system working better?  Has the congestion on your Internet line eased up a bit?

While I have your attention ... nice artwork ... please ** please ** take the extra second or two you would need to find the bbcode expression for your artwork.

You've (obviously) gone to a ** lot ** of effort to make interesting artwork (with text now added) and it doesn't show up because you have not yet learned how to use the simple menu imgur.com provides to find your correct bbcode image format.

(th)

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#28 2020-09-25 12:14:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

You are correct (th), and I note that you are polite.
I have moved twards new understandings of what I think makes sense within this topic.
Syntetic Gravity machines may be able to replace solar cells as an energy source.  It is quite simple, you have solar energy directed into the end(s) of a spinning cylinder, and you gather heat.  You then  reject that heat through a radiator, to generate electric power.
Along the way, though unlike solar pannels, you may foster a useful biological process.
And this may present some really interesting possibilities.  For instance I have been seeking to understand what could be a "Minimum" biosphere that was productive and useful.
I am going to do that and then bounce from the bound, upwards through a spectrum of methods leading to envronments where humans can actually survive in a good fashion.
How exposed to the raw space enviroment can you be and still not break the laws of nature per useful biological activity?
------
So, what I think may be the "Minimum" potentially useful biosphere:
The interface between a "Raw Space Environment", and a biological environment, may allow for some very strange tricks.  I do not have proof that it will work, and I also will over time reconsider how useful this could be.  Might most definitely try some upgrades to more "Natural" synthetic environments.
So, my minimum boundry is for photo microbial life.
The game I will play is "How low can you go?", and still get something productive?
Without artificial lighting, we must resort to windows to get light into a biosphere, and yet separate "Raw Space" from a modified environment, suitable for biology.
How low a pressure can you go?  Well if your internal atmosphere is partially of water vapor, you might go down to the tripple point of water, and even lower.  But if you do that, you need tricks in order to provide what biology as we know it needs.  (Liquid water for one thing).
These tricks could involve electrostatic forces, ice, and salts.  For now I lay aside ice and salts.
Electrostatics:
A paper thin atmosphere could be accomplished in a less than triple point of water atmosphere.  You might have sheets of something which can produce such an electrostatic force.  I have seen chart recorders where this was done.  A sheet of paper can be caused to cling.  Sometimes in the winter, our socks might cling to our butts, to embarass us.  Something like that.
I really am just trying to establish what I think is one of the boundries of capability.
So, while I don't know exactly what atmospheric pressure would allow water to condense on a electrostatic matt, lets just suppose it could be 1 mbar.
The 1 mBar is background pressure where liquid water cannot exist, and the electrostatic matts, have to supply the additonal necessary pressure to allow for a film of liquid to condense on them.  I will venture into salts a bit, where if you did "Salt" the electrostatic surfaces, you could only need a lesser electrostatic pressure to condense salt water as a film on the matts. 
Granted, electrostatics and salts may suggest how things can go wrong with all this over time.
But my intention is to show that a "Window", separating raw space from biologically active space could only need to hold 1 mBar of differential pressure.  This is actually a bit silly, as any window we might create should be able to do better that that.
However, my intention was to show "How low you could go", per "Air Pressure".
So, what good might this be?  Well it might convert CO2 and water to produce Oxygen and biological materials.  Say Methane.   And what does a Starship run on?
It might be noted that you would not need to bother with spinning cylinders to do what is described above.  Just a cylinder or other enclosure, with a minimal air pressure.
And that is as low as I could go.
------
And then we could explore the use of centrifugal force, ice, and salt in a spinning enclosure.
So, moving "Up" a bit, we might have cylinders where ice covers a body of water.  This is actully a situation where some silly games could be played. If you could keep the ice layer as cold as say ~-30 degC, and yet the lower layers as balmy as ~20 degC.  (See how I am pandering to the lazy "Metric People"....), This may be possible what is the vapor pressure of ~-30 degC ice?  Pretty low.  Now your windows only have a little work to do.
I think I have mentioned solar salt ponds enough.  If you need more infor then request it.
For this cylinder device we would have variables that could be set for spin rate,  Saltiness of salt layers and temperatures, collection and rejection of heat.
On Mars itself, I speculate that a solar salt pond may have advantages.  Less gravity should suggest a lower convection rate, as zero gravity would suggest no natural thermal convection.
But what if the cylinders were spun for a maximum 1/10 g in the interior?  And then we place a less salty layer above a more salty layer or water?  And as I have shown in visual depictions, we may have radiators that don't just radiate heat to the universe, but also serve as pressure assistive for the containment of a differential pressure in a cylinder?
And now then for this system were may the "Boiler", be?  You may have a layer of ice with serves as the "Boiler", where you incorporated pipes/tubing for that purpose.  Ammonia?  Not entirely satisfied with that, but it comes close.  Now, then, again, how low can you go thermally, in the ice layer?  ~-30 degC????  That's probbaly an overkill.  Your windows don't have to hold much pressure at all.  But down below as you have maintained a layering of saltiness, you may have balmy temperatures.
You may need to compensate for Henries laws in this system to promote good biological activity.  This might include bags of water where you may add extra disolved gasses suitable to what biology you want to promote.  We have been here before trying to deal with Mars, itself on the surface.
------
So, I see these "Bioreactors of Solar character", as also being energy producing and storing.
I think that such methods could be ideal for Mars, as it is solar weak.  We could not only produce happy places on the surface of Mars, but in it's orbits.  It is a blessing that Mars has not had the same solar flux over time as the Earth.  It would be a dry ball of dirt and rock if it did.  But now we could pump up the volume of vibrations for Mars by collecting them in the Martian hill sphere, and pumping them into ice covered lakes and seas, per microwave transmissions from orbit.
Should it be a problem we can consider methods to better contain the Martian atmosphere.
We may hope to get our needed water from the moons Phobos and Demos, but Mars itself would probably do.
Done.

And yes, for the moment, excellent access to this web site.  Did it.

Spell checking?  Not so much.  I cannot dream and spell well at the same time.  Spelling is like an anchor that draws too much energy away from the dreaming/formulations in vision.  But you may understand just as well.  I don't come from a situation where having a large mouth and small mind are so wonderful to contemplate.
smile

Last edited by Void (2020-09-25 12:18:10)


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#29 2020-09-27 12:41:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

Here is something to look at.  Rudimentary.
lvPfDsh.png

I will edit this until I get bogged down again, then perhaps come back later.

Although I originally though of a step cone sort of garden, I also see where this could be made into a Cone Synthetic Gravity Machine.

While it could be useful for Mars, lets hope we don't need it.  But for objects the size of dwarf planets, and somewhat smaller perhaps it coule be pretty good.  Most people would think of magnetic levitation for this, a manufactured cone object spinning in a manufactured cone cave.

Still I note that if you put air pressure into the apex of the cone you might get away with it to some extent, as the relative speeds would be somewhat slow.  If you could make the air layer under a laminar flow, then you might get away with more.

It could be something for Mars, but lets say Ceres and Vesta and some other worlds, these undergrounds, and then connected with a common plain well into orbits.

I think that is a start.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-09-27 12:46:39)


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#30 2020-09-29 19:25:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

------
I have  come up with what I think could be a usful orbital device to:
1) Be an energy flywheel.
2) Not so much need a counter spinning device.
3) Be adaptable to needs.
Note: This depection is only one subtype that could be done.
heCv18S.png
I must say I like the structure, feel it might be good for many things. It is basically a modification of a wheel synthetic gravity station with embedded cylinder subsections that also provide strength to hold the shape of the modified wheel.
I do struggle with how to give it radiation shielding, not that that cannot be done for a cost, But I recently was aware of a member(s) talking about trees and wood.  I do agree that Mars needs wood if it can possibly be done.
Bamboo.  This is what I recall other members proposing.
I think that orbital Bamboo might be a thing.
As I have said, before the connection between the Earth surface and LEO, is much harder than the connection would be between Mars surface and Mars Orbits.
Granted, there will be GCR and solar flares.  That is real.  Where most needed through, there would be mass from Phobos and/or Demos.  The version I have depected does not necessarily show how the Bamboo would get it's light, but there would be so many ways to do that.
The version I am thinking of would not bother with too much shielding for the Bamboo, however for any workforce probabbly much would be done.
Obviously on the ground on Mars, you would have to deal with short or absent days for winters and dust storms, which probably would harm the crop.
As I see it there will be room for a version of Starship that would be specialized for this.  It could bring up useful things, whatever is needed, from the Martian surface, and bring down Bamboo and perhaps other things.
I have not gotten specific, because I can see that there could be an enormous number of variations of this thing that could be contemplated.  At the very least this might stimulate some imaginitive people to do better.  I would like that.
Enough for now.........
Done.


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#31 2020-09-29 19:38:38

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,841

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

For Void re #30

I celebrate your progress in bringing the benefits of imagery to your presentation, I must apologize for an (apparently) insatiable appetite for even ** more ** than you have already achieved!

Your diagram in #30 is presented (or I ** think ** it is presented) as a camera's eye view from off to the side. Could you possibly provide a draftsman's standard configuration of "front view" / "top view" / "side view"?

I realize this would mean extra work, but I am impressed with your demonstrated mastery of the tools you are using.

A quick check with Wikipedia revealed the correct name for the projection I am requesting is:

What are the 3 main views of an orthographic drawing?

If I have caught you with an elevated energy level, perhaps this is not too great a request?

(th)

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#32 2020-09-30 07:41:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

(th)
I think better illustrations would consume time and be relativly not needed yet.  Better artists than me could do a fantastic job I am sure.
Think flying saucer shape.  Think red blood cell shape.  You can look up as to why red blood cells are shaped the way they are.  It is a biconcave shape, a form of disk shape.  This maximizes surface area for an enclosure.
So, I am getting rather excited about largely windowless version.  It is generally the intention that one side of the "Disk" is to face a greater source of light, likely the sun or the output of a concentrating mirror.
I am thinking now that the lighted side will have solar cells bonded to it.  They may actually in part be structural for the disk as well as an energy source.  Solar cells typically only use certain parts of the suns spectrum.  As typically concieved, of in space so far, all waste heat then passes directly to the universe.  However if bonded to the disk, some large amount of the waste heat should go into that wall of the disk.  So, that waste heat can be utlized also.
If a crop like bamboo were to be farmed inside of the disk, using LED's, then to some extent some of the waste heat from that process might be harvested.
Of course on the dark side would be placed methods to generate electricity from rejecting waste heat to the universe.  The bamboo would serve as evaporators, and the dark side interior wall as a condenser of water from water vapor.
Power storage and utilization would be done by both the flywheel nature of the whole assembly in relation to it's common plain, and also the fact that the bamboo would not have to have constant lighting, but as bamboo must already be used to fluctuating light levels, you may grant as much light as is convenient to the bamboo, within the biological limits of the bamboo organisms.
It is worth noting that the biomass inside of the flywheel would actually be a part of the flywheel effect, storing momentum in it's mass.  And so also the solar cells would not only collect solar energy, but would store spin energy as well.
One note of caution, which should require forsight, and not afterthought is how to manage the danger of a run away Kessler effect, as these thing will not only have orbital energy but spin energy.  We would not want them to decay into masses of space junk, clogging orbital pathways.
Collections of these devices would be usefull almost anywhere in space where the materials and means to construct them could exist.
For Mars of course my thinking is that they may dump energy to the ground, probably with microwaves, where it is desired.  My prefered method if it is possible is to liquify ice to be lakes and seas.  Those then are long term energy storage devices to use on the ground.
In the inner solar system, I feel that they may be assistive to generate a great deal of Oxygen, which is abundant.  So, I really think we want a form of space propulsion that expells Oxygen for the most part.  An Oxygen mass driver system might be good.  The Europeans have a ion  drive that can expell air.  The output from it would in some cases collect in the upper Martian atmosphere, and it may just result in an Ozone layer, which should help the creation of a biosphere on the surface of Mars.
As to Terraform Mars in particular, there can be a helpful method provided by shading parts of Mars, and adding microwave energy to other parts.  In general shade the dryer parts, and add energy to the more icy parts.   I am sure the use of greenhouse gasses will also be assistive for that.
If we would intend to create a biosphere on the surface of Mars, it is better that as much of the surface is watered sufficiently with snow and frost as is possible.  Shading the dryer areas would help with that.  So, some of these disks could be placed to provide shade, while they also collect energy and run their bioreactors.
The raw materials that the bioreactors would process could come from Mars itself, and perhaps Phobos and Demos, and perhaps the asteroid belt eventually.  For Mars we might have a spinning Skyhook tether to capture Martian air or a tether hanging down from Phobos.  Then a source of Hydrogen, perhaps from the surface of Mars with a Starship.   So the initial Martian biosphere to modify the Martian atmosphere would occur in orbit and could even later be useful that way.
I am sure that other types of plants could be grown in these orbital bioreactors as well as might be economically useful.
Done.


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#33 2020-10-07 02:51:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

A thing that should be remembered is "Vacuum Deposition".  This might be done in space.
https://www.permanent.com/space-industr … 20a%20mold.

§ 4.7.1 Vapor and Droplet Deposition in Vacuum
Vacuum vapor deposition in space utilizes an electron beam to vaporize a metal sheet, billot or ingot target, and the vapor sputters off onto a mold, or is manipulated by a magnetic field to paint a mold. Parts of any shape can be made with great ease, speed and purity, using electron and particle beams. This will work much better in the vacuum and zero gravity of space.]

(Of course there is more).....
In my opinion this has not be studdied enough.  It is very old thinking.  Pre-Dark Ages of space, so to speak.  From before.  Many things were figured out, before we bacame the livestock, food of the demons of domination. smile
Don't think so?  How is it that every time we get started we get stopped, again and again?
We are given just a little bit of a chance for our dreams and then somehow leaches suck the energy out of the dream.
A little hissy fit!  I guess it is supposed to be hard, so easy to get parinoid.
------
Here we might have one way to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_s … to%20orbit.
Anyway, this could be a thin start of something stronger.
You could also start with a woven structure of perhaps as others have said basalt fibers.
Easier I think to make a thin balloon on Earth, at this time, and then to vacuum deposit materials on to it to make it more substantial.
I am familiar with beneficiation of "Lean" ores.  Magnitism is one that might not so require water.  Water methods are what I am more familiar with.  But if you have a source of magnetic materials, you might fluidize it by various means.  I might suggest fluidization of a stream of particles by motion, vibration.  Then to extract a substantially more magnetic portion.
From there you might use a "Mond" process to extract certain metals.  Or you might use the European method of more recent discovery, to also extract Oxygen, which cannot be without a utility.
Then perhaps you have a starter material to apply vacuum deposition to.
I might wonder if we could get even further and try to find a way to make glass of tranparancy with this?
So, then you hope to make a more substantial structure than that thin balloon, using it as a "Mold".
We can start with something only good enough for a few mBar of pressure but able to support microbial biology.  Think of it as a "Space Lung".  However it might also give biomass.
And of course we would hope to master this to the point that we might make habitat for more complex organisms, even humans.
------
There can be practices of this and I hope better practices.
To build from the outside carries the chance that you might make orbital space junk to "Pollute" the orbits.  Some Lunar orbits decay very easily, so this could be a place to do it so as to dispose of garbage.
If we build from the inside, we might better think of creating inclusions of basalt fiber, or even woven fabrics of it.  So, it might be possible to make a shell out of a combination of basalt fibers and vacuum deposited materials, perhaps metals.
It's late.  Been planning to post something like this for a while.
It's a start.
Night Night.
Done.


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#34 2020-10-07 19:50:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

What I have in mind for the Martian sub-system, of our solar system per vacuum deposition methds may involve a few things.
I feel that if it could be true that the moons of Mars could be mined, and if sufficient anchor points established on the surface or into the surface, then very large molds for vacuum deposition could be established there.  For instance a half disk shape, or a cylinder shape.  Half disks 2 ea. could be then joined together.  This of course would be a path to pressurized chambers in orbit, some of them might spin.
But also there may be shapes that could enter the Martian atmosphere, and be landed, primarily with thrusters, after aeroburn, supposing the propellants were available for cost justified by the value of the objects on the ground, or then placed under ground.
But these might not always be pressurized, in fact some might become giant vacuum chambers so that vacuum deposition could be used on the surface of Mars as might be useful.
This is another case where we don't think the low pressure on Mars is a asset, but it should be much easier to make and use very large vacuum chambers on the surface of Mars in various places.  And of course pressure wise Olympus Mons could be the best per size allowed by differential pressure.   But before the necessary infrastructure for that could be set up, probabbly a more accessable location would need to do.
Done.


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#35 2020-10-11 11:34:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

I will explain this better, later when the internet demons allow it.  But there is some information in the picture.  In general the idea, is I want to bring a source of metal for vacuum depostion to a location in space where it would be valued, I might hope.
As you can read, it could be a 3 or 2 stage operation.
Falcon 9 is sort of a 3 stage operation, when, it offloads 60 or so payloads to Starlink.  Each of those then being a 3rd stage.
In the case of Starship / SuperHeavy, I would settle for a 3 stage operation, but would prefer a 2 stage operation.
The reason, is that you might get away with launching from the interior of continents, and not have to use the SuperHeavy and a at sea platform for the launch, although the Starship might also land and launch from such.
I want metal ingots into orbit in a controlled fashion to locations desired, of quality where they could coat a "Space Balloon" to thickness that may be of use.

yx89ugU.png


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#36 2020-10-13 17:20:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

Coming from the last post, I decided instead of quitting the site, I have a lot of toys in my attic, and need this site to get rid of them.
I am actually interested in a sort of farm.  It might involve, dandelions, chickens, bamboo, bees and flowers.  However, I have to clear my attic first of junk I will want to put on the curb.
If anyone feels the need to give me pillory for it, go ahead.  Most of this I only take partially seriously.  Still I think that if an idea has a 1% chance of having a bit of merit, it is not wrong to discuss it briefly.  You never know.  So get your salt grains ready at hand.
------
While SpaceX is the primary insperation for this at this time, a sort of pattern to think about, I do not necessarily only think that these ideas would only be considered by them.  The Russians have been inspired, it seems, to look into "Methalox" engines for a reusable ship now.  So, the cat is out of the bag.  I think Elon Musk will not mind that much, he wants everyone to be thinking down those lines, but of course he and SpaceX must want to protect their spirit children.
I fully support the current focus of SpaceX, "To do it at all".  That is the form of Starship and Super heavy, that they are coming to a "Final" formation of.  Of course there is always going to be another day, I speculate, if we are here or not.  So, new dreams are to be expected.
Elon Musk has clearly stated why SSTO of Starship is useless, and I agree, but I am a rocket pervert, and I want to build my imaginary orbital farm out of something, and that something could include metals.  He seems to say that the new system might be expected to bring cargo to orbit, for, (Considerably???), less than $100.00 per Kilogram.
So, to start the perversions, I have two concepts to use solid rocket boosters, to play with for Starship.  I am partially aware of the problems for that.  Vibrations.  Starship is already a fussy baby that wants to explode.  However, I have noticed a thing, for Tesla.  They are intending to build batteries, that not only store energy, but provide structural strength to there cars.  I don't know yet what the word(s) for that are.  I like that kind of behavior in thinking however.
Here, in instance #1, I imagine a SSTO, but it is a cheat.  I like this type of cheat.  If you have a contest with a lion, and do not become it's food, and live to another day, I like that.  The lion may complain that the contest was unfair, as we used bigger brains but that's too bad lion, thats what we have to work with, and we have to pay for it, to justify it's cost.
So, reviewing the Space Shuttle, although it is hard for me to get sensible answers on the question, the casings for the solid rockets are of metal.  In this case I want to get them to orbit and re-use the metal to construct things that are useful in orbit.  What I have in mind is primarily structures from vacuum deposition.  I have previously mentioned "Starter Balloons" as the mold to deposite the metals to.
In the case of the Space Shuttle, to use the solid boosters, you needed paracutes, and other accessories, and you droped them into the ocean, where they became contaminated with salt water.  The impact rigors also restricted how they might be constructed.  Here I would intend to forget much of that, just get them to orbit.  The shells of them being "Payload", to use as constrution materials.  If you wanted to recycle certain parts, you might then take them back down from orbit in a suitable method.  But the bulk would be raw materials to convert to a resource, if you had the means to do that in orbit.
The Starship, not able to do SSTO in anyway that makes sense otherwise might have some solids added to it.  And I am aware of the vibration concerns.  They would not have parachutes, which would reduce cost, and we might hope that they would not only pay their way by lifting the metals wanted in orbit, but pay to lift the heat sheild and legs of the Starship that cannot otherwise be afforded, without the Super Heavy.
But at the point of having a Starship in orbit, where it surrenders it's solid casings to a orbital enterprise, then you might have a Starship that can bring things back down.
I did not used to think that there would be much to "Bring back down", but now recalling vacuum deposition, and knowing that there are other things where I hear murmerings such as fiber optics, I change my mind.
I think I have several other things to talk about, per silly rocket methods, but I really think that before them, I want to talk about farming in space.  So, I will leave the less valuable things in my attic in place for now.
I will mention that the solids most likely would have to be on the leward side.  It is possible that some of the raptors in this situation would have to "Gimbal???" to compensate for that.  Else, you would put more payload on the leward side in the Cargo or Clip On compartments.  (See the previous post about that).
Although I have considered the consumption of the solids to make structure in space, in the distant future, we might think to make solid fuels on the Moon to fill them again, but that is a long way off.  Alice is an idea, nano particles of Aluminum, and water ice.  It has been suggested for the Moon.
In that case, the solids might stay with the ship at all times.  You would have raptors or mini-raptors to land the whole assembly.  Turn around for solids may be longer than what SpaceX wants, but if they are "Clip On", maybe that could work out.  I am also considering that for a non orbital Starship, that is the booster for a next stage to orbit, for Earth.  I did mention that I think weird things.  So, then you would not have to parachute your solids into the ocean salt water, recover them from the salt water.  You would just land them, and unclip them put fresh ones on for the next launch.  However doing that, you don't get to build things like farms in orbit.  They might hide behind the flaps during the re-entry heat, but as I said, in that formulation you would not be comming down from a full orbital level of energy of altitude and speed.
Done.


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#37 2020-10-14 12:13:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

------
0UH0D40.png
First of all let me say that what I am doing here is parallel to other members efforts to some extent.  I am getting ideas from them, and ideally, on ocassion they may get something from me or others that post here.
In a so called "Civilization", which I think implies organization, which is in realty to a degree a path to subordination and even slavery, and even stupid unproductive cruelty, never-the-less, it has the potential to be above an endless cycle of stagnation with it's own types of cruelty.
You are either growing in capability, or standing still, or declining.  Standing still is the hardest of all, unless you allow nature to regulate with episodic doses of stress where you might be in capability.  It seems that it only makes sense to try to grow, if you can, as eventually without that you have a greater risk of an extinction level episode.  Nature seems to only value continuation of pattern.  Mind patterns are only given reward, if they can extend existance of patterns in the materials.  The definition of materials may or may not only indicate those in our familiar forms of matter.  I myself believe through experience, that their is much more to learn about patterns in materials, and that that is not necessarily restricted to materials that we feel we understand at this time.  What is true in the schoolbooks changes over time.  So, an orthodox view of reality is in itself a pattern which may restrict our understanding of what is real.
Many are attracted to the notion of stasis, where you recycle, and remain.  However that always carries the risk of decline.  You have the materials you need now, but will you be able to continue with the same methods of pattern, if you then do not have the same materials inputs?  And our environment itself changes over time with or without our interventions.  Interventions usually require an investment in effort for a result which is not from our view productive to our needs and desires.
So, I choose to think of the accumulation of greater patterns in the materials. 
One thing that seems real is that the more people who go into space, the more organic waste will be generated.  If our patterns are to go into space, then we should expect a greater amount of wastes, much of it being organic.
So, how to deal with that?  Currently I think almost all organic waste, is ejected to somewhere.  In the case of the ISS, I guess it is to burn up in the atmosphere.  However per what might have been said by Elon Musk, that mass is worth $100.00 or less, per Kilogram, if that material could be rendered a useful resource.  That would be an approximate LEO orbit number.
So, along the way, as I was looking at things like farming dandilions, I took a look at organic waste, and here will consider it, prior to thinking of farming proper.
An outhouse is a good technology for its time and place.  Isolates humans from some of the organic waste, and nature then would handle it.
We have elaborate plumbing now in many places, but I think we should be looking at the simplest solutions to the needs that may be practicle.  Avoiding technology which may in the end be a burden rather than an asset to any asperations to an accumulative economy.
So, as there are so many routes to take in the matrix of thinking, I would like to avoid particular specific instances of methods.  The pathways of specialists, and those who seek stasis, will, in my opinion only lead to dead ends in a particular Cul-Du-Sac.
The silly diagram I will present repesents a episodic batch method.  The basic processes are bach or continuous, but in reality if you repeat a batch process that is continuous in a episodic fashion.
So for plumbing, I wish to simplyfy it, just put the organic waste into a container, and process it anerobically at about 30 degC.  Get Methane and Carbon Dioxide out of it primarily, and also remove many pathogens which may be dangerous to our pattern continuations.
After that it might be useful to boost up the Oxygen levels with simple microbes and a light source.  I have read that about 15% of the organic solids would still be present at this point, so, I think it might be possible to grow Mushrooms, if there is enough of what they need, Oxygen in particular.  I a squeemish about using them as a food source imediatly, so I wonder if they could to exposed to space radiation for a prolonged period after harvest by a robotic system.  Certainly space wants to offer radiation.  Perhaps they could be dried first, and so really just exposed to the vacuum of space and it's radiation for a prolonged period.  Maybe even some U.V. on the surfaces of them, to help.  As I have said I would be concerned about sanitation in this.  It is a thing to consider.  But if the Mushrooms had done their job on the chamber, they should break down much of the remaining organic matter.
After that in the chamber, continuing light and higher vascular plants.  Probably not for food, but to produce Oxygen, and to perhaps create a useful substance for building useful things from.
So, then, you dispose of organic waste, and generate Methane, and then generate Oxygen.
Byproducts could be food, at least for livestock, the mushrooms, and the output of vascular plants to make some things out of.
At the end what might remain is the roots and other remnants of the plants, and reletively pathogen free "Soil".  Some of that could be removed to a farm, to grow things useful such as bamboo and flowers for Bees I guess.
And then you would use it as a disposal site for organic matter again, with the anerobic process.
At first the entire organic sources would be food and water from the Earth.  Later, perhaps various things of that sort from off Earth.
And the supply of organic materials to cycle through this would grow, and so, it would be wanted that the general amount of hard infrastructure in space would grow.  Exactly how many people would be in space is an unknown variable, but in general, I would expect to want an accumulating number of them.  The intention being that they would do useful works.
------
So, along the way, then farms, where I see the possibility that dandelions could be a useful crop.  But I will do that in the next post, if there is one.
My objective here was to minimize plumbing, motors and such.  Isolate humans and animals from pathogens, and to generate Methane and Oxygen, and recycle water.  I think the water issue could be handled in various ways.
Done.


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#38 2020-10-14 18:35:57

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

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Dandelion Rubber:
https://starherald.com/townnews/agricul … b2154.html
Edible: (Aparently foods for humans at times).
https://www.motherearthnews.com/real-fo … 0digestion.
Things chickens are said to like:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=feed%20ch … ED45E40B44
Quote:

Dandelions –

Who knew you had chicken treats growing right in your yard? Chickens will eat your entire dandelion, roots, stem, flower and all. Unfortunately, you have to pick them for the chickens first. If you’re looking for a reason to rid your yard of dandelions – here you go. Just make sure not to spray them first.

Clover –

Clover is another great chicken treat you might have growing in your yard. Pick a big handful and give it to your chickens. They will most certainly thank you!

Chickweed –

Here’s another weed your chickens will love, the aptly named chickweed. Like clover and dandelions, just pick a big bowl full and give it to your chickens! Again, make sure these weeds haven’t been sprayed if you plan to give them to your chickens.

Melon –

You will be shocked to see how your chickens eat melons. And they love them all – watermelon, cantaloupe, any type really. It’s a lot of fun to give them the melon on the rind and watch them eat so much they leave only a thin layer behind. One of our favorite things to do in the summer is give our chickens half a melon and then come back later to look at the bowl that’s left when they’re done. It’s so amazing!

Corn on the cob –

If you need a way to amuse yourself and your chickens, hang a corn cob on a string from a tree in your chicken yard and watch your chickens go to town. We love giving our chickens not only the occasional cob that was harvested too late, but also the cobs after we’ve stripped the corn off for freezing. They pick them clean because they really do love corn.


Cabbage –

Another fun food item you can hang for your chickens is cabbage. Not only is a hanging cabbage a great snack they will enjoy, but it’s also another fun way to keep your chickens entertained.

Mealworms –

Mealworms are a yummy snack that chickens go crazy for! You can buy them at the store (I find them to be a little pricey) or you can even raise them yourself, if you’re up for a task like that. Sounds a little gross to me, but that’s what our kids are for, right?

Do you feed your chickens treats? What do you most enjoy feeding them?

So, I am not an expert, and indeed, Chickens may need more in their diet than those items.  I could be educated on that.  But Dandelions are an item of interest, and bugs that might also co-habit with the plants.
In my mind, I guess I am lazy, and have a concern for a Chickens happiness while they live.  So, as there would likely be no chicken predators other than humans in space for the most part, and as it would be good to simply put them out into a garden, and let their droppings go into it without human labor, I do ask if we could get away with a bit of that.
I would like to reduce human labor, and increase chicken happiness, while still getting the products from them. 
Perhaps someone will educate me or slap me up as well.
------
So, as must have been discovered on this topic, I am not specifically anti-Mars, not at all.
However, although I support a sort of SpaceX Mars direct method with Starship to get started in the Martian sub-system, I am very much into orbital habitats, pretty much everywhere possible, and very much including Mars.
So, in this vision I am imagining an orbital farm, which may or may not be in the proximity of Mars.
It needs an enclosure of course and a light source.  How that is done, is too early to tell.  New technology often changes what the best options are.
So, a space farm with Dandelions, and Chickens.  Also I would like sunflowers, and bamboo.
And maybe some other things, and Bees and Flowers, and some types of bugs for the Chickens to go after.
It would not just be for the Chickens to be happy, it might be a nice place for humans as well.  Maybe the right kind of dog could be there as well.  Cats? No, not with the Chickens I would think, but maybe some of you know better.
I like labor saving ideas, and if parts of this work out, then there might be a significant output for less labor.  I am sure the labor pools in space will always be able to find something useful to do.
But, I will appologize if I have been stupid with the above.  I would appreciate any education you may think is needed.
------
My next post may involve Tar Ball projectiles, Alice propulsion methods, and Starship(s).  The Moon will be featured.
Done.


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#39 2020-10-14 19:41:37

Void
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Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

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A few posts back, I mentioned solid rockets attached to a Starship.
The instance I am interested in here would be for the Moon.  The Alice propulsion method.  Aluminum nano-particles in water ice.  Not a bad concept for the shadowed craters of the Moon, and not my idea either, which might make it more certain as I do come up with some stuff from time to time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
So, the Methalox system would land the ship, but the Alice boosters would then do the heavy lifting back to orbit, perhaps with some guidance from the Methalox system propulsion.
To start with you would have what we now think of as the Lunar Starship.  Methalox propelled.
A trick before you could manufacture Aluminum on the Moon, would be to give it crushable/replacable honeycomb landing leggs.  It would leave those behind on launch, lightening the load, and so if method were present on the Moon those could be converted to nano-aluminum particles, for a Alice propulsion system.
The Starship would be supplied with new ones prior to landing again.
Or honeycomb Aluminum chunks could be droped from the ship prior to landing, to reduce the load that the engines had to land in the final moments.
In a prior post I had a fantasy about attaching solid rocket boosters to a Starship, and having them lifted to orbit.  Hopefully they could earn their passage to orbit by thrusting along the way up.  I sort of want to wish this could happen without the Super Heavy, but in that case the solids have to not only earn their keep on the way up but do more to lift a bit of the Starship to conserve it's Methalox propellants, so that it could have a heat shield, landing legs, and propellants to land.  That may not work out.  I don't know.  Anyway, Alice thrusters attached to a Starship, with or without Super Heavy, could do some work on the way up, and possibly then be reused on a Lunar Starship.   Hmmm.....Come to think of it a Lunar Starship has no Heat Shield, and I just suggested replacable honeycomb Aluminum legs.  That might work OK, but Super Heavy may still be needed, don't know.
OK, in this notion, you....
1) Start with the Lunar Starship concept.
2) Transition to a Lunar Starship with Alice.  Bring your own Aluminum.
3) Mine Aluminum on the Moon, and of course water ice, to keep the Alice method going.
------
So, if that could happen, it eventually reduces the amount of Methane needed from the surface of the Moon.  In fact I speculate that you could just bring down enough Methane to do the guidance for the assend.  You might eventually get your Oxygen from the Moon itself.
As I have said already the Methalox system would land the ship, with the already used Alice boosters, and only guide ship up, while Alice did the heavy lifting, refueled on the surface of the Moon.
------
I was going to talk about Tar Balls, and mining Mars and the Asteroids, but it is late.  Maybe later.
Done.


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#40 2020-10-15 18:31:23

Void
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Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

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In the previous post, I discussed Alice rocket propulsion, perhaps for the Moon.  I also said I was going to discuss Tar Balls in space.  I am going to pass over the Tar Balls for now, as on my way home from the gym, something more occured to me about Alice.  Something I think I like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
The projections for how to access the Moon and Mars suggest propellant depots, perhaps in LEO, and near the Moon.  SpaceX is not the only one working on refueling.
There are so many opinions on methods of space propulsion that would work best.  None of them are without merit.  So, I have, I believe, found a way to bind Methalox methods with Solar Ion, and I think Nuclear as well, that I believe will be reletively efficient, and effective.
Lets do the brawny bad boy first.  Nuclear.  I don't see why we would want to put a nuclear rocket out of service for a trip to Mars.  Not when it could be working the whole time in CIS Lunar Space.  So, that is my opinion.  If we somehow get nuclear, we want to use this bad girl smile to the best effect.
That part I added last, but I have spoken of it before what comes next, of course.
Propellant depots, with Methalox and other liquids, almost certainly will eventually be established.  However as I understand it they require active cooling, and you are squirting fluids from container to container, fluids that can be explosive, in combination.  I am not against it, of course with intellegent care it might be a good thing.
I came across this recently:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/checkerboar … per-70182/
While I might be wrong, it suggests better performance for solar power, and as I recall from another article, perhaps less mass.  So, this is the weak child, not for the boxing ring, but for long distance runs.
Various entities are using ion propulsion which of course may rely on solar power.  Solar power works better near the Earth/Moon than Mars.
Where I am going with this is support for ships like the Starship, to go to Mars, from both Nuclear and Solar-Ion propulsion, and involving Alice methods.
It may be true that international political issues may drag against the Nuclear component, but I feel that if the effort to Mars is made international, with those potential partners, that don't have rabid desires to kill, kill, kill people who don't conform to their notions of cultural structure, nuclear should be possible, if done in a responsible way.
If somehow the Nuclear option is not possible, then the two other parts should work rather well anyway.  I am going to presume that the higher powers that can collectively influence things the most, will find a rational way to work with Nuclear in space.  Without playing silly games please sirs and mams.
Alice seems to me to be a great way to have some of the propellant depots.  We think we can get water from the Moon, and perhaps Asteroids.  So, that part may work out.  We can certainly get water from the Earth to orbit, but maybe for a higher cost.
Nano-Particle Aluminum, almost certainly would come from the Earth at first, but then it would be so good to get it from the Moon perhaps.
If we would behave sensibly with an Alice booster, in the case where it might ignite when it should not, we should arrange that it can just go away, and I hope that would minimize damage to structures.
The temperatures in the location of Earth, should allow for water to remain frozen, if you hide the Alice booster behind a sunshade.  Say a solar pannel.  It won't hurt to make the booster shiny as well.  If you have an Alice assembly with a solar pannel, then I would want to include an ion drive, so that it can find it's way home after it does it's work.
So, as I learn from various people like Dr. Zubrin.  If you have a useful machine, time matters.  Putting it out of service on a mission might be unwise.  Rather if you have a strong work horse, put it to work for as much time as possible.  A nuclear rocket is not a living being, (Yet), so there is no cruelty to entity patterns involved.
Any extention of our capabilities in space can, if possible involve intermediate steps in the path from point A to point B, and this is what I am after.
Without Nuclear, we could have the jumped up Alice Boosters with solar pannels and ion drives, boost something like Starship to a path to Mars.  But it would be much better with Nuclear Propulsion.
Filling up the Starship with propellants to go to the Moon and Mars, seems rather tedious to me.  What about an assist?
Nuclear could of course push Starship to the Moon and back, to some extent.  Less Methalox propellants needed then I suppose.
Nuclear could position Jumped up Alice assemblies to what location in CIS Lunar Space is useful.
So, then the Alice Boosters would help Starship on it's way to Mars, and as they had Solar Ion propulsion they could find their way back, I hope.  This would reduce the amount of Methalox propellants required for a passage to Mars.
Could Alice + go to Mars, and help the Starship on its projection back to Earth?  Well, I suppose.
But the big thing I think is that we would eventually get the main propellants for Alice from the Moon.  The water at first, and then eventually the Aluminum.
Something to think about, I think.
Done.


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#41 2020-10-18 08:34:03

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

I couple of video's I liked:

Dr. Zubrin and Elon Musk:
https://www.msn.com/th-th/video/other/w … i-BB1a7HwV

The Angry Astronaut, Dynetics Lander:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HbrCBRhykE

So, I was surprised that the lander is planed to use LOX/Methane
They also have their eye on getting Oxygen from the Moon.
------
I believe that both Dr. Zubrin and Elon Musk, have no desire to see the Mars effort diverted to the Moon.   However if the Moon program at some point should begin to provide LOX, it would be hard for me to believe that that would not be of interest in the support of the continuation of access to the Mars Sub System of our solar system.
This is the one I am aware of from Europe/UK:
https://phys.org/news/2020-01-esa-oxyge … ns%20solid.
Quote:

But passing a current through it causes the oxygen to be extracted from the regolith and migrate across the salt to be collected at an anode. As a bonus this process also converts the regolith into usable metal alloys.

And it should be obvious that this method might work for Phobos or Demos, even ignoring the potential for Carbon, Water Ice, and Hydrated Minerals.
------
I am rather supportive of the Angry Astronaut, and I belive Dr. Zubrin, in using a Starship in orbit of the Moon to support multiple landings of the Dynetics lander.  Of course a different Starship could make a good start for a central lunar base where Oxygen production could be tried, probably near the South Pole of the Moon.
Boston Dynamics Spot:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB19RFtc
Quote:

Watch a Spot robot from Boston Dynamics explore an old mine

This is nice about unboxing Spot:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bo … &FORM=VIRE
A particular mission I have in mind for Spot would involve Lava Tubes on the Moon.
I think the Dynetics Lander supported by an orbital Starship, could have Spot on board, and the lander landing on the lip of a lava tube skylight, could have cables which might allow spot to repell down into the lava tube.  The end of the cable should have a charging system for spot.  And to me that says how you have a good look in lava tubes on the Moon.
------
I think that the Moon will have its own sources of capital for exploration and settlements.
At this time, I think that direct solar farming could occure within shadowed craters, in transparent domes.  You would have mirrors on the edge of the craters to shine light into those domes.  The mirrors would not reflect UV light, and the craters would have less GCR because of the crater rims.  I do not know if solar flair radiation can bypass the crater floors.  I expect it can to a degree.
However Lava Tubes could be where very serious automation partially run from Earth of locations not on the Moon.   As long as you could get enough electricity into them Solar and Nuclear, these tubes should be a great place to protect machinery.  And some people could live there as well.   If you could have a production facility for Oxygen, this could be very good for the Solar economy.
But the remainders, the Metals?   Well, I suspect that a next possible step would be to use the Mond process to get out Iron and Nickel.
Then I guess we might want to get out the Silica, but I don't have a notion yet for that.  But if you did, what was left would include some Aluminum and Magnesium.   I don't know how reactive the other chemicals in the mix would be, but maybe this would be good enough for an Alice type propulsion system, provided you could make this remainder into nano-particles.  However, perhaps there would be a desire to remove various things from the mix.
Anyway, that is starting to look pretty good to me.
I am thinking Mass Driver + Alice to get stuff off of the Moon.  Have had some ideas.
Later....Tar Balls
Done

Last edited by Void (2020-10-18 09:52:41)


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#42 2020-10-18 13:37:51

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,841

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

For Void re #41

Your post includes a familiar assertion about mirrors and UV light.  Since UV light should reflect in exactly the same way as visible light does, from a reflective surface, I thought it might be helpful to support your post with a clarification:

The aluminum used for typical mirrors is good at reflecting UV light just as it can reflect visible. Glass on the other hand lets visible light pass through but blocks most UV light. So a typical mirror doesn't reflect UV- the glass absorbs it. ... Black objects absorb most of the visible light spectrum, white reflects it.

Do mirrors reflect ultraviolet light? - Quora

Thus, while a simple reflective surface, such as a sheet of polished aluminum, would reflect UV light, such a reflector protected by a layer of glass would not.

This clarification will (hopefully) be helpful for those of your readers who (unlike yourself) may not realize the distinction.

(th)

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#43 2020-10-18 13:41:54

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Re: The Unifying Common Plain

The uv could be used with solar cells to make direct energy with the layered wavelength after solar concentrations from the reflected UV rays onto the surface of the solar array.

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#44 2020-10-19 11:28:17

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Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

------
Well good job (th)!  All we need is, it could be done.
SpaceNut, lots of UV on the Moon.
There is all the energy you might want on the Moon.  And it remains to be seen, what methods will make the most sense.  Clearly LED's are a good option, particularly in lava tubes.
I am sort of a Moon +/- sort of a person.  I don't think we have properly measured to potential of the Moon.  But it does seem that it is well worth a second look.  We don't know how human health may be on the Moon.  There may be treatments to discover to make it better, all the way up to synthetic gravity machines on the Moon.  These are things to learn.  We have a lot of learning to do.
So, in actual early practice, I would suggest only a small population of humans on the Moon, as may have useful merit.  But, in itself, it might prove to be a great place to do things and to be.  We don't know yet, and it would take time to discover what is true in the near future and what could be true in deaper time.
I fully support what SpaceX is after with the "Starship" and Super Heavy.  And it seems that they are not Mars only in there prespective, which is good.  I don't see that the establishment of a city on Mars is the only thing worth doing.  The Moon, NEO's, and eventually the asteroid belt.  No reason, if you have a car, why you only go to one place.  While I support spiritually what SpaceX is up to, I see no reason to not supliment it with other devices when that can be done in a way of gain. At this time, I see Nuclear, Solar or Nuclear electric, and Alice as being worth the time to ponder.
As for Alice propulsion, I am ignorant of more than the basics.  I would like to connect it to a Mass Driver.
But I have had a lot of thinking down those lines the last few days.  I am looking at military machines well established.  Don't get your shorts in a twist.  Actually this would be guns to butter in thinking.  If some idiot decides to start filling the orbits with military trash, that is not my descision, and not that of anyone with a sound mind and spirit.  However these machines which draw blood and flesh, have been well tested, but for sad and dark reasons.
In all of my thinking, I would expect these machines to shoot blanks, with the exception of Oxygen ice perhaps.  Oxygen is said to be 40-45% of the Moons mass.  And if we go anywhere in the solar system proper, out to Neptune and Pluto, it is there.  Even beyond it should be there. 
OK, then a gattling gun rocket system.  Alice style.  No oxygen bullets for this.  Just bundle some small Alice thrusters into a group.  Start the flight with a mass drive, then complete it with Alice rockets.  I may have this wrong, but I don't particularly see why to send to a lagrangian point with the mass drive only.  I would be happy with a 50 mile orbit to start with.  Then perhaps something efficient goes and gets the package(s).  The bundle could have gimbal methods, or might rotate on an axis.  Also, it might be possible to fire rockets two at a time to balance the thrust.   Maybe an Alice rocket can be throttled and aimed.  I don't know.
I think that there might be turbulance about all of this, so I better talk about the Tar Balls.
A long time ago, I read an article that indicated that a block of ice flung at the Moons surface would partially survive in the Lunar night for a time.  Perhaps only 40% would vaporize.  So, then you might fling them to impact a shadowed crater rim, and even some of the 40% vapor, might be captured as well.  The source, I have not mentioned specifically yet.
But of good value might be balls of tar and Carbon.  Chilled very cold so as to shatter like glass.  Of course I am thinking of these comming from manufacure somewhere, probably not the Earth.  So, you can slam your tar balls against a crater rim.
I think I am sort of done for a while.
smile


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#45 2020-10-20 13:16:19

Void
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Posts: 3,564

Re: The Unifying Common Plain

The weather made me do it....Post again.
I have been having regrets on not giving Hydrolox a chance.  I have been looking a bit more at the Blue Origins lander and the stages that are provided by others.   It is pretty sure that it is adaptive to the best propellants we thing the Moon can most easily offer. 
Criticisms are that it wastes two stages, and has a very high dangerous ladder.
I have read the eventually however, all the stages could be re-used, if refueling is made possible on the Moon and near the Moon.
As for the ladder, perhaps it could double as an elevator, where a platform could ride up and down it.  Maybe that could help.
Anyway, I think that things in general are moving in the right direction, so it is up to me to mess things up.  Actually, I have been pondering the Mini-Starship, or things like it.  Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support the decision to bypass it and move the the big Starship.
But down the road, there are going to be some skills......
Metal working is getting better and better.  Engines are aparently getting better and better, and likely other things.
The main thing that gives me pause for the big Starship is the need for sea platforms and perhaps Super Heavy.  Don't get me wrong, I feel that they are needed.
A tiny ship suffers from drag through the Earth's atmosphere.  So to get bulk mass to orbit, as far as I can tell SpaceX has it right.
But to access the Moon, big starship may be overkill, after insitu is set up on the Moon.  For Mars, a Mini-Starship would have the advantage of more surface area per volume/mass to use the atmosphere to slow down.  I am interested in accessing the moons of Mars, and I think that Big Starship might be overkill for that.
A Mini-Starship might not necessariliy be made by SpaceX.   To the degree that rules can be skirted around I would expect competitors to emulate things that SpaceX does, where they seem to work.
Alright BS warning.  I am only looking for sub-ecosystems in space, where a type of Mini-Starship might work.
I see one for the Moon,
One for Mars/Phobos/Demos,
and Interplanetary Mini-Starship.  (But only if it is with a fleet (Collection) of ships).
I don't see a Mini-Starship as a primary method to land people back on Earth.  Dreamchaser can do that.


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