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#51 2020-09-15 20:04:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,657

Re: California Wildfires

A fire bug or just someone that wants a free meal and a cot...
Oregon man arrested after starting brush fire with Molotov cocktail accused of setting six more after he was released, police say

Domingo Lopez Jr., 45, was booked Sunday afternoon after witnesses said he set a section of grass along the I-205 freeway on fire with what appears to be a Molotov Cocktail, according to a report by the Portland Police Bureau.

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#52 2020-09-16 00:00:43

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,269

Re: California Wildfires

Hey @$$holes.

People are out in the fires. Human suffering. Maybe it gets reported as a lot. You are a f*cking dick. read it. say it out loud. then do what you have to do. be a dick. you can figure out how you are  human later.

Post moderated / edited for vulgarity by kbd512

Children do read this site, clark.  Please use a modicum of discretion in your language in public forums, even if you're angry.

Last edited by kbd512 (2020-09-16 14:07:01)

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#53 2020-09-16 03:28:02

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 519

Re: California Wildfires

You ain't exactly a people person are you Clark? :-)

Last edited by Calliban (2020-09-16 03:28:49)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#54 2020-09-16 07:17:18

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re recent visit by a member in a bad mood ...

Do you have a policy regarding disruptive content?

It seems to me that it should be obvious that this forum is open to the entire world, and to every age group.

Recent content posted to several topics is (in my opinion) incompatible with the open-to-all nature of this forum.

(th)

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#55 2020-09-16 12:36:00

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 519

Re: California Wildfires

Tahanson, I would be wary of speech censorship based on what you perceive the political direction of this board to be.  The US is quite unique in having a constitution that protects freedom of expression.  The country I come from has nothing like it, you can literally be jailed for saying something that offends someone.  Freedom is something you don't appreciate until you no longer have it.

None the less, I would agree that Clark is rude; his comments appear irrelevant to the discussion and appear to indicate emotional problems.  It is up to Spacenut what he does about that.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#56 2020-09-16 14:02:43

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,709

Re: California Wildfires

clark,

I gather that you're upset over what some other people choose to do, as I'm sure many others are, but next time please try to express that using a little less vulgarity.

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#57 2020-09-16 17:29:04

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For Calliban re #55

Thanks for your reminder of the importance of maintaining free speech rights.

I'd like to point out that there are potentially persons "out there" in the world who might be interested in making a contribution to this forum, but if the members of the forum are unable or unwilling to uphold some minimal level of "civilization", then a significant part of the population will steer clear.

If this were a private forum, with membership carefully limited, and visibility to the outside world set to zero, then it would seem to me gutter language would be fine if that's what the members want to use.

This is ** NOT ** a private forum, and it is available for viewing to everyone on Earth who has Internet access.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-16 17:29:28)

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#58 2020-09-16 17:41:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,657

Re: California Wildfires

Society and law must take a stance to correct when we put others in jeopardy for life and death period.
We can ask the why later, after we have this person in custody so that they can do no more harm to others or property...

The Latest: Downed power lines sparked 13 Oregon fires

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#59 Yesterday 05:56:55

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re shelter for fires ...

We left the shelter concept at a fairly high level ...

Today's news feed included details about a couple who died due to a misleading news bulletin.   They had packed their car and were ready to go, but a news bulletin arrived indicating that the fire in their area was 51% contained.   That couple could have used an inexpensive, no frills fire shelter.

What I'm thinking about should be possible for about $1,000 (US) .... It would be underground with a hatch that itself would have insulating capabilities. Under that hatch would be an air gap, and then the hatch to the shelter.  The shelter itself would be equipped with a battery to support LED lights for reading for 24 hours, and a supply of oxygen.  The shelter would NOT be equipped to refurbish the air ... instead, the atmosphere inside the shelter would be periodically vented to the outside as new oxygen is admitted from the canister.

I'd appreciate feedback on whether such a concept seems reasonable.   Simple shelters like that could become standard along the entire West coast of the US, because fires are not going away this century.

Some simple sensing capability would be needed to help the survivors to know when it is safe to open the hatches.

Edit#1: A small supply of bottled water would make sense, along with candy bars or similar long term storable food.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (Yesterday 05:58:12)

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#60 Yesterday 15:44:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,657

Re: California Wildfires

A prefabbed concrete room sized would be about as cheap as one might get.

Concrete Safe Rooms & Storm Shelters

WHAT IS THE COST OF INSTALLING A SAFE ROOM?

Costs for safe room construction vary across the United States. The cost for constructing an 8- by 8-foot safe room that can double as a closet, bathroom, or utility room inside a new home ranges from approximately $6,600 to $8,700 (in 2011 dollars), according to FEMA. A larger 14- by 14-foot safe room runs from about $12,000 to $14,300.

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#61 Yesterday 19:21:17

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,868

Re: California Wildfires

While wildfires have always been a natural part of life on the West Coast,  so we shouldn't seek 100%:eradication, I am surprised that no one seems to be deploying drone technology.  Why can't you have thousands of solar powered "thermometer drones" monitoring ground temperatures backed up by a few hundred fire fighter drones - carrying water or other fire suppressants -  that zero in on starter fires? Imagine 100 fire fighter drones carrying 10 kgs of water each and dropping a ton of  water on the fire target.  And once the target is identified you can call in more heavy duty fire suppressant loads from aircraft.

Last edited by louis (Yesterday 19:21:57)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#62 Yesterday 19:30:39

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #60

Thank you for this impressive (to me for sure) follow up to the "affordable fire shelter" concept!

An 8 x 8 x 6 foot volume should be enough for a couple and a pet or two for 24 hours.  The use of the space for normal living when there is no emergency makes sense, with the proviso that whatever is in the space needs to be movable when the emergency is at hand.

Insurance policies might help by giving home owners a benefit if they invest in such a room.

Survival would be a benefit in and of itself.

It occurs to me (as  I reread and reread the quote in #60) that the most interesting suggestion is to make the safe room a bathroom. That would solve a pesky problem for the sheltering family.  LED lighting from well maintained batteries would be important, and a supply of oxygen which would NOT be a part of a tornado safe room.

The supply of water would presumably continue without interruption since that service would be under ground, but the power to provide pressure for the service might well be gone.  Planning ahead for ** that ** contingency would seem advisable.

We've covered wall thickness, fire proof doors, electricity for lighting, a supply of water and a way to deal with waste. 

If a community is designed with underground electricity and Internet service, power might continue for some time, but local emergency backup seems appropriate.

Since California and Oregon (and even some Washington communities will be rebuilding, this would be a good time for them to think through how to improve survivability at a community planning level.

(th)

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#63 Yesterday 19:40:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,657

Re: California Wildfires

Waters not a problem when the power is go and city supply no longer runs...

1200px-Hand_pump-en.svg.png
Old fashion well pump...

As for the power we could have a pedal powered generator with permanent magnet design simular to those in the bicycle and quadracycle topics to server for what is needed. A power inverter to create AC for low power application should be possible as well as to keep the batteries charged up.

Oxygen scuba tanks come to mind as they are capable of containing under high pressure air for the small room. Several full tanks might be enough to last it out.

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#64 Yesterday 20:38:00

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #63

Your suggestion of scuba tanks is interesting.  It should be possible to find research on how long a couple could survive in a safe room with a supply of scuba oxygen.

Your suggestion of pumping well water is (to me at least) surprising.  We are talking about mountainous regions of California, Oregon and Washington.  I asked Google for help, and found nothing specific, so while your expectation that water is available to be pumped in those locations seems possible, my guess is that it is unlikely to be safe to drink, even if there is water available.

These are areas where (I am guessing) septic tanks would be the common waste water treatment method.

Planning ahead for a supply of packaged drinking water seems like a safe way to go. 

The bicycle power supply would take up some room in that 8x8x6 space.  Perhaps it could be kept collapsed somehow, until it is needed.

An atmosphere measuring device would seem advisable ... unlike a tornado shelter, which is (normally) only needed for a short time, a fire shelter might be needed for a day or more, depending upon the nature of the fire.  CO2 is going to build up, so some of the atmosphere needs to be vented to make room for fresh oxygen from the tanks.

Perhaps a small CO2 scrubber would be worth considering ...

I asked Google for help and it came up with a substantial list of CO2 scrubbers ...

Alfaintek Carbon Dioxide Scrubbers have as well special charcoal filters that purify the indoor air from dust, smells, particles and VOC. With the Alfaintek Carbon Dioxide Scrubber people do not have to suffer from CO2 high level and poor air quality inside bomb shelters and underground bunkers at all!

Bomb Shelters and Underground Bunkers Carbon Dioxide ...

The units I found in the search results appeared to require electric power.

That could be a concern.

Edit#1: Here is a product (apparently) designed for small bomb shelters ... 

https://minearc.com/blog/airgen-provide … c-shelter/

A single AirGEN provides the capacity to survive in isolation from the outside atmosphere for up to a week without electrical power or indefinitely using any 6-34V DC power supply. With radioactive fallout decaying rapidly, with time, using the AirGEN to isolate the outside atmosphere ensures a better chance of safeguarding shelter occupants until the outside air clears or rescue can be achieved.

The unit has a built-in battery ...

Battery Backup & Charger
Digital
Gas Monitoring
Manual
• Minimum 36-140 hour battery backup system should mains electrical
supply fail (longer durations can be attained with carbon dioxide
scrubbing only, multiple units, and/or by cycling the power).
• UL/CSA or CE listed 12 Volt battery charger
• 90-135 Volt or 185-265V AC with retractable power cord
• LCD battery monitoring display
• Recessed handles for ease of handling
• Mounts directly to AirGEN Scrubber
• Additional height: 254mm (10”)
• Additional weight: 32kgs (70lbs)

Edit#2: The company provides on online pdf with coverage of multiple kinds of applications (bomb shelter, etc etc)

https://minearc.com/wp-content/uploads/ … V4-Web.pdf

Edit#3: I sent an inquiry to the company: https://minearc.com/sent/

Edit#4: Some time ago (when tornadoes had devastated Norman, Oklahoma (in the US), I worked up a design for a 3D Printed dome house.

That house was designed to safely withstand a tornado, but it could withstand a hurricane as well.  With properly designed doors and windows, it could withstand a fire of the severity of those witnessed in the US West coast recently. 

SearchTerm:AnchorDomeHouse

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (Today 06:51:24)

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#65 Today 08:24:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,657

Re: California Wildfires

People don't live where there is no source of water...
Groundwater Wells plus all of the other types which can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_California

How To Make Well Water Drinkable And Keep It Safe To Drink

There are distance requirements for septic and wells to adhere too.

I worked for a company that made composite tanks for an air pack for use by the fire, bomb squads, hazmat clean up and more which had 2 bottles at 5,000 psi.
wilcox-life-support-systems-patroit-5510.png

https://www.liveabout.com/how-long-does … st-2963212
http://airconsumptionscuba.com/how-long … tank-last/
http://www.divebuddy.com/blog/11216/how … ba-diving/

One of the most common tanks in recreational diving is the aluminum 80, which holds 80 cubic feet of air compressed to 3000 pounds per-square-inch (PSI). Tanks are usually filled at 200 bar/3000 psi (pounds per square inch). Sometimes you may see 300 bar/4350 psi or even more, but this is rare.

Tank air time at surface: 120 mins
Tank air time at 33 feet: 60 mins
Tank air time at 66 feet: 40 mins

Of course more tanks, higher psi pressures, Larger tank bottles and not diving increases the hours to which they can supply.

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#66 Today 08:47:40

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re design of shelter from fire storms ....

The subtopic is availability of water

Your statement about water is similar to the statement that people need water to live.    However, it is a stretch to say that people do not live where there is no source of water.   The statement may be modified slightly to "people do not live long where there is no source of water".  People certainly live for extended periods in locations where there is no source of water.  Desert dwellers have been living with widely separated sources of water for thousands of years.

In the community where I live, drawing water from a well is prohibited.  A few communities in outlying areas still draw water from wells, but the trend is to accept municipal water as soon as political and economic circumstances allow.

In any case, if a person has not installed a well before a fire, and confirmed that the water is safe to drink, it would seem (to me at least) prudent to stock a supply of water that can supply the expected needs of the occupants.

***
Thanks for your research of air supply options.

In the pdf file provided by the mining supply company in a recent post, I saw air measuring devices to help to determine fitness of the air in a closed space.

(th)

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#67 Today 08:50:59

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,456

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut .... several years ago (2014) I worked up a 3D Printer design for a house that would be strong enough to withstand a tornado.  The devastating tornadoes in Norman, Oklahoma had just occurred, and I was active with a 3D Printer group at the time.

The design should be able to handle fire storms, as well as hurricanes and floods, in addition to the primary purpose of withstanding tornadoes.

625x465_9895839_2690667_1459336674.jpg

A 3D presentation of the design should be available at the link below:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/SLYXS … 7&li=shops

(th)

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