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#176 2020-06-10 18:12:55

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #174 and #175

Thanks for collecting all that earlier work!

I read through it carefully, and must have missed something ... I can see the expected processes for making kerosene from petroleum mined from under the Earth.  What I am missing is the procedure for starting with Carbon Dioxide and water, and ending up with kerosene.

I did see CO2 mentioned as part of the process, but not as the source.

(th)

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#177 2020-06-10 18:30:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Indirect_conversion_synthetic_fuels_processes.jpg

starting with mars co2 and h2o we are going to make methane and or methanol (syngas) this is the Sabatier reactors output which is the starting to convert to kerosene,

Very similar reactions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E … ch_process

http://www.digipac.ca/chemical/mtom/con … atier2.htm


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids

jet fuel or RP1 is kerosene...

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#178 2020-06-21 15:13:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Plot registry identifying Edit 2020/06/16 added local rocket manufacture (th)  post for the teohold or foot hold are the means to leverage for the future for thse other plots posting for construction materials for post 27 which lays out topics coming for and which utilize the early plots of
0007 kdb512 Proposed: Nuclear power facility
0008 SpaceNut Proposed economic activity: Support of Mobile Exploration Train (Edit(th): Supply, Training, Consulting, Guides)
0012 VOID Insitu pipeline manufacturing and connectivity of plots (Edit(th): Business dedicated to under-surface transport.)
0013 SpaceNut Waste stream recovery processing (Edit(th): First of three competing organizations)
0041 Manufacture of atmosphere for habitats
0042 Manufacture of atmosphere for greenhouses

The hillside habitat starts with combination of post 43 and 44 to make use of basalt and other ealy leveraging post.

Its that use of leveraging of basalt threads or kevlar which has lead to making rockets or at least there tanks for hold what we process from mars insitu for other purposes. Which means sub orbital for mars and to orbit delivery for mars goods from one place to the other. This has been evolved from teh balloon topic.

New registry business that make use of existing to make mars more capable and less dependant on earths delivery resupply system.

This topic Compressed gas balloon rocket for Mars launch is the means to these next plots development depend on earlier plot being developed for the future mars. To which the ability to rapid cool gaseous sources have been laid out with the sabre engines system.

0048 Rocket manufacturer #1 (launches to orbit)
0049 Rocket manufacturer #2 (launches to orbit and return)
0050 Rocket manufacturer #3 (subcontractor to 48 and 49)
0051 Rocket manufacturer #4 (subcontractor to 48 and 49)
0052 Oxygen liquefaction service - this is distinct from oxygen separation - it serves customers such as rocket vehicles
0053 Dry ice procurement and manufacture - this line of business can serve Oxygen liquefaction as well as other needs

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#179 2020-07-04 15:14:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Today was electrician day replacing 3 ceiling fan light assemblies, of which 2 of the 3 were wired the same from the light switch assembly while the 3rd was junction box wired for the switch going to the box.

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#180 2020-07-04 17:11:07

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 478

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … cesses.jpg

starting with mars co2 and h2o we are going to make methane and or methanol (syngas) this is the Sabatier reactors output which is the starting to convert to kerosene,

Very similar reactions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E … ch_process

http://www.digipac.ca/chemical/mtom/con … atier2.htm


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids

jet fuel or RP1 is kerosene...

A while back, I used JPL data on ultimate expected yields for methane-oxygen synthesis from CO2 and H2O to calculate the efficiency of the process.  It came out to be 5-8% - electrical energy to chemical product.  If one assumes that the power used in this process is provided by PV arrays with 20% efficiency; then the overall efficiency (sunlight to chemical fuel) is 1.0 - 1.6%.  It really would be almost as efficient to grow biomass in greenhouses and convert it into a liquid fuel.  Or maybe a solid fuel that could be used in a hybrid rocket.

Maybe Void's ice ponds will eventually be used to grow aquatic biomass.  This could then be dehydrated by leaving outside in the low pressure Martian atmosphere.  The dry biomass could then be compressed into fuel slugs using some sort of organic binder and loaded into a hybrid rocket.  There are quite a lot of byproducts from agricultural systems that could be converted into rocket fuels on Mars.  We could in fact grow algae for that exact purpose.  Dehydrating the algae would be easy on Mars, as all water would rapidly sublime in the low pressure atmosphere.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#181 2020-07-05 07:46:16

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

This is for Calliban re Plot 0037

Thank you for establishing a stake in Plot 0037 ... I apologize for the delay in performing the "paperwork" to register your claim.

The My Hacienda topic has been languishing since it was created following Louis' inspiring vision of Sagan City (2018).  Louis has gone on to other visions, but SpaceNut and I have been attempting to keep My Hacienda alive until someone came along to help fill it out with 2750 visionaries who are willing (and able) to perform the mental gymnastics required.

Your post #180 (in reply to SpaceNut) inspired me to see if you had posted anything else in My Hacienda, and to my delight, there it was!!!

If anyone (today or in future) reads this and decides to participate in this attempt to create a "virtual community", ** please ** make sure that either SpaceNut or I follow through with the (very simple) registration process.

Calliban, if you call up the PlotMaster, you will find your claim duly registered, with a pointer to the specific record where you established your vision for a product or service (or combination) in Plot 0037.

Here is the next piece of the vision for this topic, which I have been waiting for a ** real ** subscriber to explain ... The idea is to build up that specific record with all the details that would enable you (or someone else) to pick up whatever supplies and skills are needed, and set up shop on Mars.

In other words, when you want to add a feature or capability to your plot vision, search for Plot 0037 (and yourself as author) and then edit that record.

The reason for this request is two fold ... First, my hope is that we can keep new posts in this topic to as low a level as possible.  Second, your vision can be built out in that database record with as much detail as needed, and you won't have to go looking at other database records to gather whatever you've recorded.

***
Now, for SpaceNut in particular, but for everyone who might have an interest in this project ...

The vision of My Hacienda is easily muddled, as can be seen by reviewing the topic ...

I will try to describe what I have in mind here, to help everyone who decides to help out.

SearchTerm:VisionForMyHacienda

My Hacienda is intended to reflect a 2020 level of civilization, transplanted intact into a new environment. 

It is limited (arbitrarily) to 2750 plots.  The idea is to see if we can figure out how to set up a sustainable community of 2570 physical locations, with as many people as can comfortably populate each location, with the expectation that ** every ** product and service we (in developed countries on Earth) take for granted will be present.  Furthermore, in accordance with (what I understand to be) a fundamental tenant of capitalism, there need to be at least three vendors for each product or service defined.  Thus, in addition to Plot 0037, which is now associated with Calliban, there will be at least two other complementary and competing providers of libation for the community.

Thank you again for your participation in this venture!

Your feedback on any aspect of the vision is most welcome. 

(th)

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#182 2020-07-05 09:05:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Plot 0046 Methane manufacture, for rocket fuel directly registry: on the first page we talk about this as its a key to man being able to come home at any of the mars windows for return.
Many of the posts with in this topic talk of the elements for making methane and of the energy required to make that fuel.
This is why topic discussions and the plot id in those topics are critical for the my Hacienda to not contain it here.

I have tagged the topic: In-Situ Propellant Production, design a opensource demonstrator with the Plot identifier.
It coincides with getting a toehold for sure and is the early attempts in proof of concepts for making fuel.

Fuel at a full scale manufacturing would come later...with the 46 plot identifier for sure so we are going to need another bump in the list numbers which are now not really in a priority or ordered listing but more like an index...

The void ice covered ponds are another topic which should be plot identified for its construction and future uses for life support and for energy storage in organic form.

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#183 2020-07-05 09:43:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

The quote below could go into My Hacienda, but I'm holding off for the moment due to updating of the PlotMaster with Calliban's claim for Plot 0037.

The issue at hand here is the growth of air conditioning on Earth ... it will not be a matter of growth on Mars ... Air conditioning will be a constant and perpetual requirement for life on Mars.    I liked Calliban's recent description of a human habitat at the bottom of a lake on Mars, where the pressure of the water outside the habitat would equal the pressure of the air inside, thus reducing the need for bulk in the walls.  I like the idea of Mars residents becoming aquanauts as an alternative to the default astronaut life.  Calliban's scenario deserves serious treatment by one of the many capable science fiction writers alive on Earth at the moment.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the- … ket-newtab

Cutting down on air conditioning doesn’t mean leaving modernity behind, but it does require facing up to some of its consequences. “It’s not a matter of going back to the past. But before, people knew how to work with the climate,” says Ken Yeang. “Air conditioning became a way to control it, and it was no longer a concern. No one saw the consequences. People see them now.”

Stephen Buranyi is a writer specializing in science and the environment.

Air conditioning is a function of a cold loop that circulates from outside to inside with a working fluid that does not freeze in the loop. On the inside we have fans that blow through the radiator heat exchanger to cool the air. Using the pond as a heat exhaust or dump from the habitats will keep the water warm. having the loop exit the pond to the surface allows for extra cooling before entering the habitat.

The tubing, pumps and control electronics are a business for all to make use of as we will need repairs of the systems once they are installed.

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#184 2020-07-05 17:46:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Looking at the registry we are missing communications, networking and any others that might be plausible.

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#185 2020-07-05 19:40:53

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #184

Thanks for the suggestion ... added plus equipment rental services

0060 Communications Network A
0061 Communications Network B
0062 Communications Network C
0063 Contractor to support communications: wire/radio/fiber Firm 1
0064 Contractor to support communications: wire/radio/fiber Firm 2
0065 Contractor to support communications: wire/radio/fiber Firm 3
0066 Vehicle rental service 1
0067 Equipment rental service 2
0068 Vehicle and equipment rental service 3

(th)

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#186 2020-07-06 18:14:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

We have listed the term greenhouse on the first page 24 times, crops just 3 and yet we have not given it the dues that we need to even thou we have trees and some husbandry.
Most greenhouses would make all plant, or crops while others are used just for the green, green grass to grow within. These are biomes in some cases and life support for others.

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#187 2020-07-21 16:59:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

power is plot 7 in the registry
post 13 mentions the need for backup as a methane versus not nuclear or solar topic.

The fact that a grid does not have sub station or other power source makes for single point failures or at a minimum a zone if breaker'd or fused linked for power line distribution.

Sorry I am off line for the night as power just went out this was posted from a tablet., will drop baçk in tomorrow. Have a good night all.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #162
The New Hampshire power outage report showed only 7 customers without power at midnight. 
Hoping your family was not one of them.
For the Mars settlement, loss of central power should result in immediate activation of backup systems.
Planning ahead for multiple levels of backup for any locations where human lives will be at risk would seem advisable.
This forum has the luxury of theoretical discussions ... Settlers (or even just explorers) will be in need of actual solutions to multiple levels of problems.
The time to set those solutions in place is while planners have the luxury of theory to toss around.
NewMars forums are as good a place as any for those discussions.
(th)

tahanson43206 wrote:

Here is another excerpt from a tech newsletter ...
I'm posting in Housekeeping because it is closely associated with management of plant and equipment in an installation on Mars (or anywhere).
For SpaceNut ... this kind of expertise might exist as a specialty in My Hacienda, or it might be diffused over all enterprises.  In the case of Earth, the company behind this test is (apparently) earning income by offering consulting services.  That model might work on Mars as well, although the custodians of one plot may decide to offer multiple kinds of expertise.

Life cycle asset management is key to increased plant efficiency
Poor maintenance and asset upkeep causes unintended downtime and financial consequences.
Download this white paper to learn the implications of poor asset management and how [company] can assist in preventing asset and production downtime.

(th)

tahanson43206 wrote:

Here's a technology update that should be of interest to folks who live outside cities, but who are served by power lines ...
Facebook has (according to this article) developed a robotic system able to install specially designed fiber cable on energized power lines.
If (I realize a big if) the US government were to get behind a push to deploy this technology across rural America, it could make a big difference at a lower cost than competing concepts. 
A piece not mentioned in the article is how service would be distributed from the fiber, but ** one ** option is to simply install Wi-Fi terminals along the line where they would make sense.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/come-faceboo … 00604.html
(th)

tahanson43206 wrote:

This is also for SpaceNut, but this time it is a report on complete success by a job holder and a job creator.
Recently, in the Housekeeping topic, I reported an encounter with a service representative for a local electric company, which has the contract from Kohler to service their generators.   My friend who has the generator was inconvenienced by the unwillingness of the generator to start, so the service representative was invited to take a look at the situation.  The problem was speedily identified and resolved, and the rest of the normal maintenance carried out.
What I learned over the course of the visit was that this young gent had been trained at Kohler facilities.  His training came across to me in both my observation of his practice (oil change, spark plug replacement, etc) but in the advice he passed along to the generator owner.  For example, the owner had a mixture of 5W-30 and 5W-20 oil in the emergency supply, and the service representative suggested getting rid of the 5W-20, since the Kohler training had emphasized the importance of ONLY using 5W-30. 
So what I ** think ** I am seeing in this situation is evidence of success of public education systems to prepare this young gent to be hired by the electric company in the first place, and then sent (at considerable expense) to a Kohler facility for factory training.
In the case of Mars, unlike the Earth, which tolerates failure to an astonishing degree, there will be a very limited margin for error.  I expect that every citizen will be expected to pull a full load, much as farm children were expected to contribute to meeting the needs of the family enterprise from a young age.
(th)



For mars we can not wait for a power backup to take over if we do not plan them into the grid system. Plus after it does we will still need to dispatch a crew to go out and diagnose the problem in order to send out those skilled to make the repairs to the situation.
Typically grid builders do not have those same skill sets as to those that do the repair.


Plot opportunities:

We have grid builders
Power repair grid distribution maintenance
Robotic grid surveillance and possible control switch activation
Power grid management grid control and power regulating
Backup power sources and excess power storage for backup and other uses

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#188 2020-07-22 06:15:20

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re new Plot suggestions in #187

Thanks for the suggestions for new specialties to be incorporated into the community in development in this topic.

The list of plots has grown to the point that I can no longer work on it in the forum space.  I'm now having to copy it offline and perform searches to insure that a proposed new plot is not already present.

I'll update this post when the work is complete.

Last night's Linux Zoom meeting included discussion of barbering, and specifically the discussion led to "Flowbee" which is listed on Wikipedia, and has its own web site.  The system is understandably out of stock due to the Covid-19 situation.

I'll be offering it as a suggestion for RobertDyck's Large Scale Passenger ship topic.

Edit#1: Power grid and personal care services were added.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-22 07:36:05)

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#189 2020-07-22 17:42:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Found the post discussion of hair/ barber grooming where the numbers of the military's pool the resources for travel is weighted in a way that many go as the support of the few.

We also have the air cleaning vent system filtration topic Virus filtration killing systems

We also need to make sure that we are able to repair the devices of automation and robotics that we will make use of to reduce risk and eva's that we might need to do in the functions to install, upgrade and repair as needed..

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#190 2020-07-22 17:59:09

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re My Hacienda ... thanks for noting the updates per your suggestions, and for additional links.

It may be possible to find lists of small businesses that have come into existence in various cities/communities over the centuries.

Many businesses have given way as technology advances, but many are (relatively) unchanged over the course of centuries.

***
Speaking of robotics ... (as you were in the closing sentence of #189) ... I went looking for evidence of progress in small agile robotic torso equipment, in connection with the vision of a small robot that could cut hair in the back of a person's head, under the control of the operator looking at a monitor, and operating game controllers or something similar.  Apparently there is a lot of work in progress, but I was unable to find a citation reporting on development of an actual product.  The NASA experiment with a torso robot has ended (I'm pretty sure). 

Here is a NASA pdf about the R1 and R2 robots which were sent to the ISS.  The paper mentions delivery of the R2 system in 2011, and indicates it is expected to remain at the station.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file … dates4.pdf

GM is mentioned as a partner in development of R2.

That system is pretty much what I'm imagining as a personal haircutting assistant.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-22 17:59:24)

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#191 2020-07-22 18:19:04

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Here is an image of the NASA/GM Robonaut R2

ONFhMCBb.jpg

This device is shown in motion (In very ** slow ** motion) in videos that are available for Robonaut.

What I'm looking for is a very ** fast ** responsive robot torso that can allow an operator to perform the motions needed to cut hair.

My guess is that such a robot does not yet exist.

Edit#1: There ** is ** a solution ... fast, simple, lightweight, free of complex electronics (except for a web cam).

That solution is a simple mechanical linkage that mirrors the movement of a hand control in front of the operator by moving a corresponding work piece behind the operator.  A web cam mounted on the work piece in the rear would show the work to be done (ie, hair cut).

The whole thing could be down with lightweight wooden rods and pivots.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-22 18:39:09)

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#192 2020-07-26 15:39:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The Robonaut is actually quite a failed robot as robots go and even Nasa put out a call to fix it.

But yes the right idea just the worng implementation of it.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For GW Johnson re #86

Glad to hear you are back to whatever Windows 10 considers "normal" !!!

For kbd512 ... thanks for posting that interesting tip!  Hopefully someone will find it useful down the road.

For SpaceNut ... GW Johnson reported calling Geek Squad.  I'd like to suggest something like that is going to be needed in the My Hacienda community, and not just for digital infrastructure.  The entire enterprise is going to be operating at an elevated level of technology tempo, and there are going to be very few times when (responsible) residents can relax.  Children have always enjoyed a lack of awareness of danger, which their parents and guardians are busy trying to ward off.  Visitors to Mars may enjoy a certain freedom from worry, due to complete and total lack of understanding of the thin veneer of civilization they'll find on Mars.

(th)

It would be bad if coding were the issue for such a robot let alone the equipment that we need to keep working as you know we will need tech savvy people to ad in the fixing there in...

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#193 2020-07-26 17:22:07

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,074

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For
SpaceNut re #192

Thanks for the tip about Robonaut .... I was unaware it was not successful.

For the last several years, Robonaut has been almost entirely disabled, and publicly available ISS status reports show that the last time the robot completed a full research task was December of 2013. This week, NASA announced that it is bringing Robonaut back to Earth to be fixed.Feb 15, 2018

Robonaut Has Been Broken for Years, and Now NASA Is ...

That snippet was dated 2018 .... I will try to find out what happened

Here is a report that the device was returned:

Space Station's Robonaut back on Earth for a tuneupwww.floridatoday.com › science › space › 2018/05/05
May 5, 2018 - CAPE CANAVERAL. – An experimental humanoid known as Robonaut is back on Earth. SpaceX tweeted that its Dragon capsule carrying ...

Google was unable to find anything about what's been done since Robonaut landed.

Here's a snipped dated 2019 ...

Robonaut - NASA robonaut.jsc.nasa.gov
Sep 10, 2019 - Robonaut 2 (R2), built out of a collaboration between NASA and General Motors, is a dexterous humanoid robotic testbed designed to ...

Here's a long article about the issues with Robonaut on the ISS... It appears that improper grounding led to flakey behavior that was unsolvable.


https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/rob … ng-it-home

Last Friday, Robonaut was packed up to get it ready to come back to Earth. As the team in Houston prepares to get their robot back in shape, Badger reminds us that it’s important to keep the overall Robonaut mission in context.

“The whole point of the ISS is to be able to try different things out. I think [Robonaut] has given us a lot of knowledge on what the requirements for humanoid robots in space will be in the future,” she said. “We’re bringing it home, repairing it, and in the near future after that, we’re hoping to fly it up there again to proceed with our original goals of advancing new technology.”

[ NASA Robonaut ]

Updated 2/16/18 4:50 p.m.: Added comments by CMU roboticist David Wettergreen.

An abridged version of this post appears in the April 2018 print issue as “Robonaut Returns for Repairs.”

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-26 18:02:02)

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#194 2020-08-01 10:56:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

This page http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3501&p=4

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SeaDragon re #6

Thanks for taking a look at My Hacienda, and for considering this new topic as a place to drop off ideas (or links to videos) from time to time.

The potential of My Hacienda exists in the potential for this forum to provide a place for folks who are serious about building up a civilization on Mars to assemble their ideas and lists of materials and skills.  So far (to my knowledge) we do not yet have anyone working on building a plot, but that could happen at any time.

The "owner" of a plot is the "owner" of a database record in the NewMars database.  What goes into that record is up to the "owner", but it could include everything needed to establish and sustain a business on Mars, in a community of at least 2750 specialties.

The PlotMaster record itself is an example of how a database record can be enhanced and extended over time.  SpaceNut and I have contributed entries as we think of specialties that will be needed, and we have a couple thousand specialties to go.

Edit#1: In honor of SeaDragon's initiative, I have added to PlotMaster:

0082 Vendor #1: Trolley Power Distribution Transportation system vendor.  Provide overhead line for land vehicles.
0083 Vendor #2: Trolley Power Distribution Transportation system vendor.  Provide overhead line for land vehicles.
0084 Vendor #3: Trolley Power Distribution Transportation system vendor.  Provide overhead line for land vehicles.

(th)

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#195 2020-08-01 16:05:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,200

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Possibly thinking a bit into a future state when we want a bit of home on mars.
The green grass of Mars

As odd as it sounds there several business to be had.

We can also add fruit orchids. Apples, peaches, plumbs ect as individual and mixed crops to grow as well.

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