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#76 2019-12-19 15:58:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Greenhouses

We have alot to learn about farming mars and while we know we are in a chamber to grow food as we will need to know more.

9 Strategies for Self-Sufficient Living

Skills to Work on Before You Begin Homesteading

10 Rules for Starting a Successful Farm Business

So you want to start a farm in time as we will need more than plants to eat.

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#77 2020-01-05 19:46:51

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Greenhouses

Martian habitats: molehills or glass houses?

MH_LigneCompleteOrange.jpg

This is the mars to come for sure once we can make the glass and framing....

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#78 2020-01-08 21:04:48

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 26,753

Re: Greenhouses

Lots of good information in this Farming and the geography of nutrient production for human use: a transdisciplinary analysis

The variety of crops and of livestock as well as fish biomes but not how much land or energy for each are required. Lest we forget we have hugh biomes of forest and oceans with which we would not live with as well.

So data from FOOD, LAND, POPULATION and the U.S. ECONOMY

At least 1.2 acres per person is required in order to maintain current American plus Currently the 400 gallons of oil equivalents expended to feed each American ...

Its actually more when we include the other resources which make these other food possible along with the breathable air and materials we take for granted.

Lets call it 2 acres and that converts to 8093.71 m^2 for just 1 person....or 90 meters on a side...
https://www.metric-conversions.org/area … meters.htm

So now what is the energy that we need for solar light...
Goggling mars greenhouse floor thermal insulation  for heat lose calculations reference materials
Will read more tomorrow for these links

https://www.greenhousemag.com/article/t … heat-loss/

Conductive heat loss = SA x U x TD
Infiltration heat loss = 0.02 x V x C x TD

http://www.marshome.org/files2/Hublitz2.pdf
ENGINEERING CONCEPTS FOR INFLATABLE MARS SURFACE GREENHOUSES

https://farm-energy.extension.org/wp-co … tation.pdf
Greenhouse Energy Efficiency (Heating)

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#79 2020-01-08 23:31:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Greenhouses

https://www.vcalc.com/calculator/?uuid= … 764e2038f2
The Greenhouse Calculator provides useful equations and data for people who work with greenhouses and high-tunnels.  This includes basics for greenhouse construction and heating, for mulching and coverage with straw and for greenhouse planters.



https://www.cedengineering.com/userfile … ciples.pdf
Heat Loss Calculations and Principles

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do … 1&type=pdf
Engineering concepts for inflatable Mars surface greenhouses

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#80 2020-01-26 17:24:08

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

This article is not really about the crops that can be grown but the conditions which must be controlled.

Scaling of Greenhouse Crop Production During Nuclear Winter

Meaning low levels of light energy to grow with.

This study designs a method for scaling up crop production in low-tech greenhouses to contribute to global food sustainability during global catastrophic conditions. Constructing low-tech greenhouses would obviate growing crops using more expensive and energy intensive artificial light. To significantly contribute to world-wide food demand, these greenhouses must be constructed quickly, cost-effectively, and in extreme quantity.

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#81 2020-02-10 17:55:22

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

Calliban wrote:

I am impressed by Casey Handmer's work.

https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019 … ver-rated/

His idea of a ETFE blanket, anchored to the ground with cables, is a very good one.

https://caseyhandmer.files.wordpress.co … 213244.png

I ran a few calcs to look into what sort of material requirements this would entail.  I assume that tensile cables will be made from basalt fibre, which is 20 times more energy efficient than steel on a MJ/MPa.m basis.  I assume that the pressure in the habitat in 0.4bar and that the ceiling height in 30m.  The tensile strength of basalt fibre is 3GPa and I assume a working stress of 1GPa.  There would be one cable for every 10m2 of roof.  The internal pressure must be balasted by 10t/m2 of soil and rock to balance internal pressure.  So each cable must be anchored to at least 100t of rock.  So it will need to be tied to an anchor at least 10m beneath the surface.  The density of basalt is 2.7t/m3.  For each m2 of land, some 1.6litres of fibre must be used, weighing 4.32kg.  Each kg of basalt fibre requires 5kWh of electricity.  So, each m2 of land requires 21.6kWh of electricity to render it habitable.

How much land could we produce each year, if our basalt fibre plant is powered by a 1GWe nuclear reactor?  The reactor will produce 7.89billion kWh per year, assuming 90% capacity factor.  So that's 365km2, or 141 square miles.  Of course, the ETFE manufacture will consume a lot of power too.  But if basalt fibre can be used to reinforce it, only a very thin layer will be needed.

So assuming we can scale basalt fibre and ETFE manufacture quickly; a Mars colony could paraterraform country size areas of the Martian surface within a few decades, using a standard size nuclear power reactor.

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#82 2020-02-14 16:17:10

tahanson43206
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Re: Greenhouses

This is for SpaceNut re Correct Topic for (possible) new discussion ...

The recent and ongoing discussion of the idea of creating a greenhouse that would be inflated to Earth normal pressure (ie, 14.7 psi) with Martian atmosphere included citations you provided that showed design of a research greenhouse that was itself enclosed in a dome to simulate the Martian atmosphere.

After thinking about the text inside the citation(s) for a while, I've retained a concern expressed by the authors, that in ANY system with gas pressure inside a container that is itself enclosed by a lower pressure environment, there WILL be leaks.  The authors cited numerous examples of leak sites.

This led me to consider what might be a mechanism for reducing leak losses on Mars (or other locations away from Earth) by adapting the tool used by the researchers but with a twist.

Let us imagine a thin walled habitat for humans, such as an airplane cabin, or the ISS, come to think of it.  Humans have become adapted to spending time in such structures, as they have to spending time in ships at sea, and especially submarines, which Calliban brought up in a recent post.

Inside the cabin the atmosphere would be optimized for humans, just as it is reported to be on the ISS.

Unlike with airplanes, but much more like with submarines, the atmosphere in an off-Earth structure would be a closed system and carefully managed by automation to maintain optimum conditions for the occupants.

Outside the cabin, the default would be whatever the off-Earth environment provides, all the way from vacuum on the Moon, through the relatively benign atmosphere of Mars, through the deadly environments at selected other locations.

I am proposing an alternative, based upon the greenhouse research.  The human habitat would be inside a larger structure containing a gas or mixture of gases which would be maintained at the same pressure as is maintained inside the human habitat.  There would be little incentive for molecules to migrate from the human habitat to the enclosure or vice versa.  Migration might occur, but it would be much less in volume that would be the case if there were a large pressure difference between the inside of the habitat and the exterior.

The gas chosen for the pressure buffer might be chosen from the external environment when practical, or it might be supplied from another resource if necessary.

In any case, leakage that would occur would be between the buffer and the external environment, instead of from the human habitat.

So the question for you is ... (assuming you want to see this topic explored) ... where would you want to put it?

Related to that is ... has this come up before?   The forum has a pattern of re-inventing the wheel as each new member joins.

I'd like to try to avoid that in this case.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-14 16:18:22)

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#83 2020-02-14 16:36:06

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

Leaks for the ISS are tested for long before its sent up to space with that we can have meteorite hits that can cause little to much damaged depending oin the size, hardness and velocity of what might strike the modules. Its the unexpected strikes that would make any modules as you said with a greater pressure inside than versus what is outside.
Now on the greenhouse I was starting with what we know about the earths atmospher of which with science studies do show that we can be fine at a lower pressure for what we breath and so on. I was attempting to show how much air from mars would need to be processed in order to fill the greenhouse up to the levels to which we desire for Mars.
With that said what is the values for that lessor pressure air gas content that will allow for both men and plant to thrive.

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#84 2020-02-14 17:48:50

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

Air Pressure and Volume: Boyle's Law. Boyle's Law defines the relationship between a gas volume and its pressure.

The lowest atmospheric pressure humans can breathe in, with a pure oxygen supply on hand, is roughly around 12.2 percent sea level air pressure or 121.7 millibars, the pressure found at 49,000 feet.

https://sciencing.com/minimum-oxygen-co … 15546.html
http://www.nwohs.com/Oxygen%20Regulator … s%20II.pdf

16% oxygen was at altitude 7500 ft. 2286 m

Spacesuits for the space shuttle era are pressurized at 4.3 pounds per square inch (psi), but because the gas in the suit is 100 percent oxygen instead of 20 percent, the person in a spacesuit actually has more oxygen to breathe than is available at an altitude of 10,000 feet or even at sea level without the spacesuit. The Apollo LM cabin pressure was 3.5 psi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_suit

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#85 2020-02-14 19:59:43

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2014/08/01/ … elevation/

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air- … d_212.html

As elevation rises the density for a cubic meter drops as to why we have trouble breathing at altitude.

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#86 2020-02-14 21:19:55

tahanson43206
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Re: Greenhouses

For SpaceNut re #83

Your statement about ISS leaks caught my eye, so I went looking for some "real world" reports. 

Here is a discussion from StackExchange from 2014 ...

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … -atm-conta

@DaveNay -- The ISS has leaks. The mechanisms used to remove CO2 from the breathing atmosphere concentrate CO2 and vent that concentrated gas to space. The vented gas is not pure CO2; it still contains some oxygen and nitrogen. The joints between modules leak breathing atmosphere. The tiny little gaps around windows leak breathing atmosphere. Oxygen is easily replaced; simply electrolyze some water and vent the hydrogen to space. Nitrogen? That's not so easy. It needs to be hauled up to the ISS as compressed nitrogen gas. Most Soyuz launches carry nitrogen to the ISS as part of their manifest. – David Hammen Oct 25 '14 at 14:01

The researchers who reported on the test greenhouse discussed in another topic recently asserted that "all systems with compressed gases leak" or words to that effect.  It would appear to make sense to plan for leakage, while at the same time doing everything possible to prevent it.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-14 21:22:18)

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#87 2020-02-15 08:34:49

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

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#88 2020-03-12 19:19:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Greenhouses

How to Build a Pit Greenhouse on Your Homestead

016-083-01.gif


Some types of plant shelter are simple and easily understood; a shade or windbreak screen, an arbor or even a cold frame are rational structures requiring minimum knowledge to construct and manage. A greenhouse is something more than a sun trap and a light trap for the benefit of plant growth; it's complexity lies in the fact that plant forcing, itself, is a highly complicated affair. In a greenhouse there exists a so-called trinity of plant ecology, which necessitates a balance between light (heat), moving air, and controlled humidity. Temperature, first of all, affects plant growth because it directly influences such internal processes as photosynthesis (food manufacture). Plant growth also requires respiration — which is energy generated by the breaking down of foods manufactured by the plant.

Tomatoes, for instance, require an optimal daytime temperature of 80 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit, nighttime 65 degrees F. The optimal daytime humidity was found to be 50 to 80%, nighttime 95%.


Here, you’ll find our best ideas and plans for DIY cold frames, greenhouses, hoop houses, low tunnels, cloches and other tools that can keep the harvests coming throughout fall and beyond.

Build an Earth-Sheltered, Energy-Efficient Greenhouse; Triple the length of your growing season with this simple, energy-efficient greenhouse design.

Ninety frost-free days here in the mountains of Idaho close to the Canadian border are not enough to raise most vegetable crops succumbed to frost in early September. Most plants will not grow in temperatures lower than 40 degrees; so, on a 30-degree day I was destroying the cozy, sun-baked 50- or 60-degree environment, shocking the small starts..

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#89 2021-12-24 17:54:12

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 26,753

Re: Greenhouses

Thinking about the method to create a minimal chamber where we can stand up within it and have a width across that would give a desired level of growing area.

Cutting a trench that is east - west aligned so that we can place a reflective covering as shown in another post we then can bring the levels of heat and light to a level that would allow for a partial pressure to be gradually obtained over time.

6a00e0099229e888330240a4fb9995200d-500wi

The top of the trench covering is an arch of of plastic that takes the sheets of clear plastic of roberts to cover this light mass frame. The sheet lays on the ground beyond the frame and regolith is piled up on the edge.

yes I was reminded of this by Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

Slowly I would add a water jacket blatter over the top area to counter the internal air pressure increase and to get an ever increase radiation protection. As we remain I would cover that with a hard shell of glass or other plastics to increase the ability for man to walk sleeve less with in the corridor of the trench.

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#90 2021-12-26 18:49:05

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,218

Re: Greenhouses

SpaceNut, that's an interesting idea.  By sinking the greenhouse into the ground, you gain maximum advantage of the insulation and thermal inertia provided by the soil on 5 of the six sides of your greenhouse.  That is a big advantage on such a cold planet, on which temperatures can swing by 100K across a single diurnal cycle.  Assuming the greenhouse is in the northern hemisphere, then a simple flat sheet coated with foil and aerogel, to the north of the greenhouse, can serve as a reflector during the day and an insulation cover over the top of the greenhouse at night.  It can fold onto the glass like a flap, preventing heat loss by radiation to the night sky.

There are quite a lot of plants that are perennial, that we need to be able to survive the Martian winter.  Things like fruit and nut trees, for example.  The arrangement you have developed, would allow us to grow such things even in the far north.  During the winter, such plants would lose their leaves and we would lower the reflector to provide insulation over the top of the greenhouse.  At the beginning of spring, we would lift it up again and the trees would come out of hibernation.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-26 18:51:25)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#91 2021-12-27 16:25:18

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Greenhouses

The image in post #89 has a caption in Russia. I used the website www.translate.ru to translate to English. It's a Russian website; at the bottom is a Russian flag, click that to select English. The advantage of this website over Google or Bing is you an open a "soft" keyboard with different alphabets. One option is Russian cyrillic.

Рис. 5. Траншея с цитрусовыми насаждениями в колхоэе им. Сталина,, Ташкентского сельского района.

Rice. 5. Trench with citrus plants in the colhoe. Stalin, Tashkent village area.

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#92 2021-12-27 16:52:38

RobertDyck
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Re: Greenhouses

NASA Curiosity rover: Mars Weather
Today is December 27, 2021. Weather on that website is for Sol 3332, December 20, 2021. High -6°C, Low -73°C.

NASA Insight lander: Mars Weather
Insight has temporarily suspended daily temperature measurements. The latest is for Sol 681, October 25, 2020. High -4.4°C, Low -95.4°C.
There's a chart with air temperature for Sol 1096, December 27, 2021 (today). Without estimating the dot for each data point, average is about -60°C.
insight_marsweather_white.png

The point is deep ground will be the average of temperature at that location. Deep enough will give you the average over the entire Martian year. Will stabilizing temperature at -60°C be useful?

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#93 2021-12-27 17:01:50

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

I have been taking the time to post mars temperatures Mars weather reporting that way we can do the comparison for location on mars.

https://www.powerblanket.com/blog/froze … g-freezes/


Of course this is the water in the soil that translates with the temperature to depth.

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#94 2022-01-08 07:26:29

tahanson43206
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Re: Greenhouses

I started reading this topic from the top and finished the first page.

I expect it is worth reading all the way through, but I don't have time now.

At one point SpaceNut observed that the participants keep rehashing old discussions.  I suppose that is inevitable when new folks join and don't read previous discussions.

This post is offered for the Large Ship topic ... I searched for diurnal and did not find it.

My concern for Large Ship greenhouse design is that sunlight is constant, and plants have evolved on Earth to cycle between sunlight and darkness on a 24 hour basis, which Mars replicates.

I am confident there have been studies of optimum growth conditions for plants on Earth, since it has been possible to provide 24 hour lighting for several decades. 

My suggestion for the Large Ship is that the greenhouse on top of the habitat section (on the inside so there is artificial gravity on the floor of the greenhouse) should alternate between feeding photons to plants, and collecting them with photocells.

The posts of this topic that I had time to read today included discussion of the need to filter ultra-violet light.  That could happen at the mirror if it is coated with the right material, or it could happen in the transparent material enclosing the greenhouse.

The Large Ship greenhouse needs a different gas mix than the habitat section of Large Ship, since plants need CO2 and people don't, but otherwise I would expect the greenhouse atmosphere might be held at the same pressure as the Large Ship habitats.

The atmosphere prescription for Large Ship has been worked out in detail, by GW Johnson and others.  There should be no need for anyone to start that discussion over again.  If you are new to the subject, and don't have time to search the forum for posts on the subject, just ask.

(th)

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#95 2022-01-08 09:20:43

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouses

The co2 from the cabin scrubbers can feed the  gas into the greenhouse air just fine as that makes it part of the life support system.

Light Pollution Abatement Site

Plants, shrubs and trees use sunlight for photosynthesis during the daytime, but at night they need darkness to regenerate a key compound - phytochrome. Nighttime lighting can reduce vegetation's ability to properly create this compound.

Is a 24-Hour Light Schedule Bad for Plants?

Many plants do well under 24-hour artificial lighting, but there are a handful that will refuse to bloom and perform their best under these circumstances. Others will thrive and bloom faster than usual when continuously exposed to light.

So a sun shade that can be drawn closed to block the sun automated is seemingly all that is needed to simulate plant conditions.

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#96 2022-01-08 09:46:51

tahanson43206
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Re: Greenhouses

For SpaceNut re #95

First, it is good to see your ID in the active list, and I hope that means you are mending from the work related challenges you reported recently! 

Your point about CO2 from the passengers is a good one, (of course) and it supports the point I was trying to make.  In Large Ship, the greenhouses CANNOT have the same atmosphere as the habitat.  The CO2 must be removed from one (habitat) and dumped into the other (greenhouse).  Oxygen that is excess in the greenhouse can go the other way.  These processes happen naturally on Earth, but they will require constant/never-ending/continuous activity by machinery to perform those separation and delivery functions on Large Ship.

Your idea of pulling shades is interesting, and RobertDyck may decide to investigate it, but if you let your thinking stretch a bit, please consider that we are talking about an area the size of the perimeter of the Large Ship habitat.  I've forgotten the exact numbers, but they are easy to find in the Large Ship topic.

Your shades idea needs to be implemented across the entire area of the roof of the Large Ship habitat, and they need to be automated.

However, beyond that, the weight of the shades is a factor to consider ... if the shades do not collect light, then they are mass that is being lifted from Earth to perform only one function.  If you make the shades into photoelectric cells, then they could collect sunlight while they are protecting the plants.

***
Thanks for the links to information about some plants that do not need a rest.

In another topic, RobertDyck has published a list of plants he is considering for the Large Ship cuisine.

If anyone has time, please compare the list of RobertDyck with the information linked by SpaceNut, and publish the results here.

We should (hopefully) end up with a concise, authoritative post or set of posts that RobertDyck can use with confidence to configure the Large Ship.

We need to try to get away from endless discussion.  It is past time to start making firm decisions about Large Ship configuration.

RobertDyck is scheduled to give a presentation about Large Ship to the National Space Society on March 12th.

RobertDyck has been working on Large Ship for two years.  By now, we should have a reasonably good idea of what is needed to put that vessel into orbit, to get it to Mars with passengers and crew, and return it safely to Earth orbit.

The greenhouse is just one of many vital subsystems that need to be clearly and firmly defined.

(th)

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#97 2022-01-08 09:58:23

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,008

Re: Greenhouses

Following up on the subject of greenhouses ...

By coincidence, an online vendor dropped off this product offering today.  I like it because it is an opportunity for NewMars forum members (or readers for that matter) to begin to gain hands-on experience with hydroponic gardening, at a price that looks affordable (to my eye) compared to commercial outfits that are available for the ** really ** committed.

Click for details.

Hydroponic Vertical Growing Tower

Do a little indoor gardening without getting your hands dirty. Standing at 4ft tall, this tower is the perfect hydroponic planter for all you spice and herb needs.

NEW ITEM! $109.50

If anyone is interested, I would be happy to provide a link to the retailer.

(th)

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#98 2022-01-08 12:34:40

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
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Re: Greenhouses

This topic was about greenhouses on Mars. But Tom wants to talk about the Large Ship. Ok. That ship is designed with primary life support in each cabin. That includes CO2 scrubbers, and chloroplast oxygen generator. The CO2 scrubbed out of cabin air is passed through a filter to remove any mould, bacteria, or bacteriophage. That last one is a virus that infects bacteria, which could infect invito chloroplasts. Then CO2 is added under pressure to water. The water is reverse osmosis filtered to ensure it's also clean. The carbonated water is added to bags of chloroplasts. So primary life support for the cabin is self-contained.

However, do not expect all cabins will have 6 adult passengers. Some cabins could have their life support turned off, and air exchanged with the corridor, using a fan. Pressure compartments can be sealed by closing pressure-tight doors across the corridors, but individual cabins are not. One subsection has 8 cabins, so theoretically could carry 6*8=48 passengers. If that subsection carries a total of 24 passengers, then half the cabins will have CO2 scrubbers turned off, and bags of chloroplasts just not installed. Water recycling and cabin dehumidifier will still operate. So that means oxygen generation for half the cabins will supply all cabins in that subsection. Or a cabin might have half the number of bags of chloroplasts installed.

Public areas will not have life support: dining rooms, kitchens, laundry, observation rooms, bridge, sick bay, and the gym. Air will be circulated by fans. Air from the gym will be piped directly into a greenhouse. The ship may have more than one greenhouse, because the upper deck is separated by spokes for rotation. Any fermentation vats will also produce CO2. Not just for alcohol production, but for oil production. Mould growth should not produce CO2, so producing amylase enzyme. Reacting starch with amylase to produce sugar will also not produce CO2. But composting vegetable matter will produce CO2. Stalks, leaves, or other plant parts that humans do not eat will be fed to fish; any that cannot be fed to fish will be composted. All these CO2 sources will be directed to greenhouses.

Also, observation rooms will be dressed to look pretty. This includes potted plants for aesthetics, as well as to recycle oxygen. Plants selected will produce food. For the Large Ship, I envision one observation room growing juniper and other plants to make gin. Another observation room will grow orange trees. Passengers will not be permitted in the greenhouses, unless they are trained and assigned as agricultural workers, but will be permitted to pick fruit from trees in observation rooms.

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#99 2022-01-08 12:59:42

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 7,343
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Re: Greenhouses

A small shop sells equipment and supplies for hydroponics, only 8 blocks from my house. They were open before Canada legalized marijuana. They sell equipment for all sorts of hydroponics, pictures on their website show lettuce/carrots/beets, but you know what it would really be mostly used for. I have a small house. I do a number of experiments, no room for hydroponics.

Ready... Set... Grow! Hydroponics

Latest booze experiment. I have a countertop distiller. I started making rum in September 2020 because a friend likes pirates. The white rum was a little cloudy. This time I made a point of activating the "tea bag" of charcoal by soaking in hot water just before starting the distill, and added a copper pipe to the outlet. The countertop distiller is stainless steel. Sulphur compounds stick to copper, so I hoped it would improve flavour. This time it came out clear as water with just a single distill. You could distill to 60% alcohol by volume, then dilute with distilled water. That gives best flavour. For maximum yield I distill directly to 40% in one pass.

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#100 2022-01-08 13:52:18

tahanson43206
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Re: Greenhouses

For RobertDyck re #98

Thanks for noting that greenhouses are (going to/likely to) exist on Large Ship before they exist on Mars.

A lot depends upon how rapidly plans for Large Ship progress.  There are NO plans for greenhouses on Mars, at present.

There ** is ** a lot of talk about greenhouses on Mars.

The same ** could ** be said about greenhouses on Large Ship ... The difference will be in which scenario receives concentrated attention first.

I am taking the position that a prototype Large Ship in orbit would be an excellent (if not ideal) place to try out ideas for greenhouses on Mars.

It seems (to me at least) it is a ** lot ** more likely that human beings on Earth can be persuaded to give up the treasure needed to build a fly Large Ship, than that they will do the same (at scale) for Mars.

Even if the prototype Large Ship never leaves orbit (like the Enterprise Shuttle never reached orbit) it will (potentially) play a significant role in helping to understand the effects of artificial gravity, and the actual requirements for successful operation of a large scale greenhouse in space.

(th)

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