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#26 2019-05-11 14:18:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,191

Re: Blue Origin

Not intending to disrupt the previous posts, but here is an article on the subject:
https://www.space.com/blue-origin-blue- … ained.html
Quote: (The claimed specs on this look really good compared to the other mentioned lander(s))

For comparison, the Apollo lunar modules that carried astronauts to the moon in the late 1960s and early 1970s were 23 feet tall and weighed 4.7 tons (4.3 metric tons) without propellant. Lockheed Martin's proposed lunar lander is a bit bigger and heavier. That lander, which would also use LH2 and LOX for propellant and has yet to receive a name, would be about 46 feet (14 m) tall. Even with an empty fuel tank, the lander would weigh 24 tons (22 metric tons) — more than seven times the dry weight of Blue Moon. When the Lockheed Martin lander's fuel tank is filled, the module will weigh a whopping 68 tons (62 metric tons).
Blue Moon may look smaller than Lockheed's lander, but it will have a bigger payload capacity. It will be able to deliver about 4 tons' (3.6 metric tons) worth of payloads to the lunar surface, compared with 1.1 tons (1 metric ton) for Lockheed's lander. A "stretched tank" variant of Blue Moon will be able to carry up to 7.2 tons (6.5 metric tons), including an added ascent stage — and some additional fuel — that would allow astronauts to visit the surface of the moon.

A fair amount of fun.

I am under the impression that the New Glen 1st stage will use BE4 engines (Methane/Oxygen), and the upper stage will use BE3-U engines(Hydrogen/Oxygen).  For the three stage version, I don't know what engines would be used for the middle stage.

I believe that the BE5 is being developed for New Armstrong, guessing Methane/Oxygen.  But that leaves me to wonder if there is to be a BE6 engine, since Blue Moon is to use the BE7 (Hydrogen/Oxygen) engine.  A mystery.  Maybe they are just funning us on that.

No clues here about Nitrogen.

One very interesting notion about Blue Origins that may still be planned is to build a lunar base from delivered modules by automation, before people even show up.  The idea some time back is that the modules would apparently be "Plugged" together by automation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-11 14:31:34)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#27 2019-05-11 15:06:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

Here are the numbers from apollo 11 redux topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7581
A Return to the Moon by the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6842
Armstrong Lunar Outpost - status: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5107

Any how do we turn a Dragon of any version into the Apollo LM scaled to what we know...

While I would like a 3 man mission that would do the flyby and lunar landings..maybe we can do it with 2 as we would not want an extra man just circling the moon while the others get to be on its surface.....
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module

Ascent stage:

Mass, dry: 4,740 lb (2,150 kg)
Mass, gross: 10,300 lb (4,700 kg)

Atmosphere: 100% oxygen at 4.8 psi (33 kPa)
Water: two 42.5 lb (19.3 kg) storage tanks
Coolant: 25 pounds (11 kg) of ethylene glycol / water solution

RCS propellant mass: 633 lb (287 kg)
RCS thrusters: sixteen x 100 lbf (440 N) in four quads
RCS propellants: Aerozine 50 fuel / nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4) oxidizer
RCS specific impulse: 290 s (2,840 N·s/kg)
APS propellant mass: 5,187 lb (2,353 kg)
APS thrust: 3,500 lbf (16,000 N)
APS propellants: Aerozine 50 fuel / nitrogen tetroxide oxidizer
APS pressurant: two 6.4 lb (2.9 kg) helium tanks at 3,000 pounds per square inch (21 MPa)
APS specific impulse: 311 s (3,050 N·s/kg)
APS delta-V: 7,280 ft/s (2,220 m/s)
Thrust-to-weight ratio at liftoff: 2.124 (in lunar gravity)
Batteries: two 28–32 volt, 296 ampere-hour silver-zinc batteries; 125 lb (57 kg) each
Power: 28 V DC, 115 V 400 Hz AC

Descent Stage:

Mass including fuel: 22,783 lb (10,334 kg)

Water: one 151 kg (333 lb) storage tank

DPS propellant mass: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg)
DPS thrust: 10,125 lbf (45,040 N), throttleable between 10% and 60% of full thrust
DPS propellants: Aerozine 50 fuel / nitrogen tetroxide oxidizer
DPS pressurant: one 49-pound (22 kg) supercritical helium tank at 1,555 psi (10.72 MPa)
DPS specific impulse: 311 s (3,050 N·s/kg)
DPS delta-V: 8,100 ft/s (2,500 m/s)
Batteries: four (Apollo 9-14) or five (Apollo 15-17) 28–32 V, 415 A·h silver-zinc batteries; 135 lb (61 kg) each

7400038_orig-512x363.jpg

Dragon – Cargo Version

Length     2.9m
Diameter     3.6m
Sidewall Angels     15 Degrees
Pressurized Volume     10m³
Unpressurized Volume     14m³
Trunk Extension     34m³
Sensor Bay     0.1m³
Mass     4,200kg
Launch Paylaod     6,000kg
Return Payload     3,000kg
Endurance     Up to 2 Years
Maximum Crew     7
Avionics     Full Redundancy
Reaction Control     18 Draco Thrusters
Propellant     Hydrazine/Nitrogen Tetroxide
Propellant Mass     1,290kg
Docking Mechanism     LIDS or APAS
Power Supply     2 Solar Arrays – 1,500-2,000W
Power Buses     28V&120V DC
Batteries     4 Li-Polymer Batteries
Cabin Pressure     13.9-14.9psi

The arrays provide 1,500 to 2,000 Watts of power peaking up to 4,000 Watts. Two Power Buses are part of Dragon’s electrical system, providing 120 VDV and 28 VDC respectively. 4 redundant Lithium-Polymer Batteries provide power during orbital night, ascent and re-entry.

So 2 things that can go from the capsule mass numbers are the parachutes system and the PICA heatshield as these will not be part of Dragon modified for Lunar exploration.

I have read the mass of the heat sheild is in the 2,000kg - 3,000 kg range....
Still looking for the parachute numbers....

After we have the modified numbers for what we would call the ascent stage then we can work on the truck to make it into the descent stage.....

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#28 2019-05-11 19:38:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,191

Re: Blue Origin

Well, I am guessing that SpaceX will also go big on the Moon.  But of course they may likely not be able to refuel from the Moon, except of course Oxygen.  That would be big after all.

Still, due to your post, I have realized that it could be possible that Blue Origin based boosters with BE7 engines could be partnered with Starship.  Starship is well equipped to get to LEO, and Low Martian Orbit as well.

But used upper stages of New Glen, might be recruited to be a tug.  (Of course at this time they use BE3-U engines.

So, in this notion at first water from the Moon could be split into Hydrogen and Oxygen both at LEO, and somewhere near the Moon.  And a starship fueled with Methane only in LEO, could be tugged to a lunar orbital position using the tug I mentioned.  There it could be loaded with Oxygen from the Moon.  Then the tug mentioned if needed could position the Starship to a very high Earth orbit.  The Starship could launch from there.  I have information that such a start would allow a 30-40 day trip to Mars.  I cannot vouch for that being true.  However it does seem true that if you have a powerful enough launch method, you could do that.

At first the Hydrogen from the Moon.  Later Hydrogen from NEO's, possibly also Oxygen, but perhaps much Oxygen from the Moon.

FYI, I understand that New Armstrong while a period of time off, will be roughly equivalent to the power of SuperHeavy/Starship.

It is being worked on but I believe it is a fair distance off.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-11 19:48:21)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#29 2019-05-17 20:30:25

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

Due to the game changing goal of 2024 to land on the moon Nasa has come up with plan B. Artemis exploration project, the mission is meant to carry American astronauts to the moon's south pole in five years' time to take the first woman and the next man to the moon by 2024.

nasa-moon-illus.jpg?w=990&crop=1

Eleven aerospace companies will share more than $45 million in funds from NASA to design and test prototypes for the Artemis Moon missions, the agency has announced.

Here’s the full list of companies and their responsibilities under the new funding:

    Aerojet Rocketdyne – Canoga Park, California
        One transfer vehicle study
    Blue Origin – Kent, Washington
        One descent element study, one transfer vehicle study and one transfer vehicle prototype
    Boeing – Houston
        One descent element study, two descent element prototypes, one transfer vehicle study, one transfer vehicle prototype, one refueling element study and one refueling element prototype
    Dynetics – Huntsville, Alabama
        One descent element study and five descent element prototypes
    Lockheed Martin – Littleton, Colorado
        One descent element study, four descent element prototypes, one transfer vehicle study and one refueling element study
    Masten Space Systems – Mojave, California
        One descent element prototype
    Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems – Dulles, Virginia
        One descent element study, four descent element prototypes, one refueling element study and one refueling element prototype
    OrbitBeyond – Edison, New Jersey
        Two refueling element prototypes
    Sierra Nevada Corporation, Louisville, Colorado and Madison, Wisconsin
        One descent element study, one descent element prototype, one transfer vehicle study, one transfer vehicle prototype and one refueling element study
    SpaceX – Hawthorne, California
        One descent element study
    SSL – Palo Alto, California
        One refueling element study and one refueling element prototype

NASA teams up with SpaceX, Blue Origin to design a human lunar lander

NASA is awarding the companies a total of $45.5 million to work on the project over the next six months under the Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships program.

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#30 2019-09-18 20:23:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

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#31 2019-12-08 21:57:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

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#32 2019-12-09 21:06:18

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 1,835

Re: Blue Origin

To orbit? Nope.

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#33 2019-12-09 21:31:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

They got to try to get there sometime as there is not enough money in sub orbital....

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#34 2020-05-13 07:28:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

Digipen student project heading to space on Blue Origin's New Shepard rocket

The recent advances in low-cost access to space like Blue Origin's New Shepard are facilitating these types of student projects. Thomas and Solorzano plan for more DigiPen sensors systems to be launched on rockets, including (potentially) instruments on small satellites - known as CubeSats - that will stay in orbit.

Low cost is the way going forward to get more than the rich and governments to orbit for sure.

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#35 2020-05-13 16:57:00

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,908
Website

Re: Blue Origin

New Shepard is what Blue Origin is flying,  and it is strictly suborbital.  Burnout is several dozen thousand feet at about Mach 3 (roughly 1 km/s upward).  It coasts ballistically to a zero-velocity apogee at about 60-90 km altitude,  then falls back.  Blue Origin has chosen to recover the booster rocket separately from the manned capsule. 

The orbital rocket New Glenn is still nothing but a paper design at this time.  It's quite a bit bigger than New Shephard,  and if memory serves,  two stages.  They don't plan to recover the second stage,  as far as I know.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#36 2020-05-13 17:42:37

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,796

Re: Blue Origin

Blue Origin beat Space X to the recoverable stage landing. Ever since I keep a beady eye on what they are up to. Essentially they have access to unlimited funds via Bezos. In case you're wondering, Bezos's net worth is $145 billion...

They can afford to be relaxed and unshowy. They might yet surprise us.

Bezos's obsession though is quite different from Musk's.  Whereas Musk wants to transfer humanity to another planet, Bezos wants us to create huge artificial worlds in space.  So I think Bezos's ambitions are "closer to home".


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#37 2020-05-22 05:13:03

Mark Friedenbach
Member
From: Mountain View, CA
Registered: 2003-01-31
Posts: 325

Re: Blue Origin

DigiPen? I graduated from there. It is a non-accredited video game development school. What are they doing sending up cube sats?

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#38 2020-05-22 13:11:19

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,585

Re: Blue Origin

For Mark Friedenbach re #37

Your question of SpaceNut caught my eye, so I decided to ask Mr. Google about DigiPen.

Patents
Gaming machine system having a gesture-sensing mechanism
Abstract
A gaming machine has a processor for conducting a wagering game on the gaming machine and a gesture-sensing mechanism. The gesture-sensing mechanism can be used for providing various inputs. For example, the gesture-sensing mechanism provides player inputs that select certain options during operation of the game. The gesture-sensing mechanism may further distinguish between a first gesture indicative of a first player input and a second gesture indicative of a second player input. Or, the gesture-sensing mechanism provides player inputs in response to a physical action by a player that relates to a theme of the gaming machine. Alternatively or additionally, the gaming machine may include a microphone in communication with the processor. The microphone receives player inputs in the form of acoustic signals.

I wonder if the cube sat might be able to create video suitable for inclusion in a video game?

Or perhaps there is an application for gesture interpretation in the real world, as well as in the game world. 

It would be interesting if someone in the forum readership could investigate and report back.

(th)

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#39 2020-05-22 16:27:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,572

Re: Blue Origin

What's special about this box is that it and its contents are being designed, programmed, and built by a group of third-year students in the Bachelor of Science in Computer Engineering program (CE), at the DigiPen Institute of Technology in Redmond, Wash.

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#40 2020-05-23 09:03:29

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,908
Website

Re: Blue Origin

Re post 36:

McDonnell-Douglas beat Blue Origin to the recoverable stage landing,  if you consider their DC-X vehicle that flew several years ago. 

But there's recoverable stage landings and there's recoverable stage landings.  Here's what I mean by that:

DC-X landed from a few hundred meters altitude and a very subsonic speed.  Blue Origin landed their New Shepard stage from a few km altitude at about 1 km/s (Mach 3) speeds.  Spacex lands their Falcon cores from dozens of km altitude and about 3 km/s (near Mach 10) speeds. 

So,  which outfit has accomplished the more difficult mission?  (There's a whale of a lot more to it than just surviving a rocket touchdown.)

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2020-05-23 16:19:52)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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