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#1 2019-01-24 12:47:59

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,455

Blue Origin

Another impressive success for Blue Origin...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzYCDbDlnc


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2019-01-24 14:58:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

It is a nice thing.

I hesitate to intrude, but so far no one else has checked in on this topic.

I like Blue Moon as well.  Very suitable for the Moon I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_Blue_Moon
Quote:

Blue Origin Blue Moon
From Wikipedia, the free encycopedia

Spacecraft properties
Manufacturer
Blue Origin
Payload mass
4,500 kg (9,900 lb)[1]

Start of mission
Launch date
2024 (proposed)[2]
Rocket
Space Launch System, Atlas V, New Glenn, or Vulcan

Moon lander
Landing site
Lunar south pole
The Blue Origin Blue Moon is a proposed robotic space cargo carrier and lander for making cargo deliveries to the Moon. Designed and operated by Blue Origin for use on the Blue Moon mission aimed for 2024,[2][3][4] Blue Moon derives from the vertical landing technology used in Blue Origin's New Shepard sub-orbital rocket.[5]
The lander is planned to be capable of delivering 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) to the surface of the Moon.[1] The cargo vehicle could also be used to support NASA activities in cis-lunar space,[6] or transport payloads of ice from Shackleton Crater to support space activities.[7] The first projected mission for the craft would be a 2024 lunar south pole landing.[2] It is proposed that a series of landings could be used to deliver the infrastructure for a Moon base.[3][4][8]

References
History
Design began on the lander in the 2010s. The lander platform was first publicly revealed in March 2017,[1][9] with a lunar-surface-delivered payload capacity of 10,000 lb (4,500 kg)[1] at which time the first lunar landing mission was projected for 2020.[1] [3]
Blue Origin's president Rob Myerson said that the proposed lander could be optimized to use NASA's Space Launch System (SLS) rocket, but could also be launched with Blue Origin's New Glenn and ULA's Atlas V[6][1] and next-generation Vulcan launch vehicle.
In a May 2018 interview, Blue Origin's CEO Jeff Bezos indicated that Blue Origin would build Blue Moon on its own, with private funding, but that they would build it a lot faster if it were done in a partnership with existing government space agencies. Bezos mentioned the December 2017 directive of the Trump Administration to steer NASA to include a lunar mission on the pathway to other beyond Earth orbit (BEO) destinations, and also his support for the Moon Village concept, "a proposal promoted by European Space Agency head Jan Woerner for cooperation among countries and companies to cooperate ... on lunar capabilities."[10]
Description
A BE-3U LOX/Hydrogen rocket engine will be used to place the lander on a trans-lunar injection trajectory and to begin to decelerate the vehicle for its lunar surface landing. The lander will "land tail-down" using 49 kilonewtons (11,000 lbf) liquid oxygen/liquid hydrogen thrusters that were under development before April 2017.[1][6]

Of course it does not exist yet, but it looks to be very appropriate for the Moon.  It is not clear to me if it will be re-usable, but I should think so, as it is based on the New Shepard.

I guess I am happy for this because not all of the eggs are in one basket.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-24 14:59:50)


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#3 2019-01-24 18:15:22

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Starting to get some paying gigs... Blue Origin's New Shepard Launches NASA Experiments, Aces Rocket Landing

The mission,lasted just 10 minutes and 15 seconds, reached an altitude of 66 miles (107 kilometers) in its sub orbital flight.
New Shepard and New Glenn are named after pioneering NASA astronauts — Alan Shepard, who in May 1961 became the first American to reach space, and John Glenn, who launched on the nation's first crewed orbital flight in February 1962.

https://www.space.com/43094-blue-origin … hotos.html

Speaking of the New Glenn Blue Origin Video Shows Off Updated Design of Huge New Glenn Rocket

It will stand 313 feet (95 m) tall and be capable of lofting 50 tons (45 metric tons) to low Earth orbit (LEO). The first stage is designed to fly at least 25 times,

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#4 2019-01-24 19:47:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

It is pretty interesting.  There is a difference in approach between 3 systems, (And of course others).  It is almost like we are getting evolution of several different new life forms.

Per New Glen:
Blue Origins 1st stage will glide more, and perhaps be able to shed more speed than Falcon 9 1st stage, and so perhaps need less fuel for descent?  But I also see that by not landing on a barge but a more sophisticated ship, they may risk a more expensive landing ship, if they have a crash.  Methane and Oxygen for the first stage BE4's I believe, and Hydrogen and Oxygen for the upper stage BE3's.

They do not recover the upper stage.  Falcon 9 does not recover the upper stage.

I see a potential that in some cases they might in the future be able to repurpose the New Glen upper stage in orbit.  I have not seen any mention of anything like that beyond the vaguely related notion of making "Blue Moon" patterned on "New Sheppard".   But maybe down the road.  Jeff Bezos notions more involve the Moon, and synthetic gravity habitats.  So if you are going to build orbital habitats, I would think that down the road you might see if you could integrate the recycling of used objects in orbit to that purpose.  But that is all speculation on my part.

SpaceX has focus on Mars, so all large engines are Methane and Oxygen apparently.  That does not remove it from some Moon service, but could suggest that Blue Origin and other companies focus on a shuttle for the Moon "Blue Moon", and that perhaps Starship could work with it.  In that case it might be rare for Starship to actually land on the Moon.  But then I guess they say that they can land and then take off without refueling.  In that case it is a case of what gets the job done, and for what price.  Elon Musk has spoken of space stations and propellant depots, so they are not just and only Mars.  Starship is a upper stage fully reusable as a concept.  But of course that comes as a price.  You have to actually be able to land it reliably, and it also consumes propellants to land.

More of my BS speculation as usual, but I do think that it would be possible to build a "Shell-Starship" relatively on the cheep, and as I have said before, get it to orbit, and remove some of the parts for re-use and bring them down in a cargo ship.  The engines for instance.
As for the shell, think "Skylab".  Components for space stations or interplanetary spaceships.  Electrically driven I would think, Ballistic capture possibly used.  But that is me with my wild speculation.

Vulcan if I understand it recovers the engines and avionics to the surface of Earth, but discards the 1st stage fuel tanks after use.  I don't have a firm grasp on what happens to the upper stages under what circumstances.  I think I have seen notions of a fuel depot being involved.  Maybe I just don't understand enough about this yet.

But it seems to me that these various methods may not be in direct competition.  They each may have a particular area of proficiency, and perhaps they will only compete to a degree and may co-operate on certain tasks.  For instance accessing the Moon and Mars.

I would hope actually.


Done

Last edited by Void (2019-01-24 19:58:39)


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#5 2019-01-24 20:08:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Cost of flight dropping is what is driving the competition from the new mix of capability.

It is sad that the tried or true of Boeing and Lockheed seem to not be capable of changing and need the upstarts to give them a push.

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#6 2019-01-27 17:33:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Blue Origin wants to launch a person into space by the end of this year

of course its sun orbit currently
190124-blue-origin-new-shepard-launch-cs-204p_d7327ecd37c92f9f6b1dc049e2fad5cf.fit-760w.jpg

Blue Origin's New Shepard rocket completed its 10th uncrewed test flight on Jan. 23, 2019.

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#7 2019-01-27 21:12:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Blue Origin has Shown off a New Video of its New Glenn Rocket Design

looks beautiful....
newglenn-launch.jpg

The design also specifies that the first stage will be able to conduct 25 missions before it needs to be retired. Based on the New Glenn’s design, Blue Origin claims that the rocket will be powered by 7 BE-4 engines that will rely on a combination of liquid oxygen (LOX) and liquid natural gas (LNG) to generate 17,100 kilonewtons (kN) or 3.85 million pound-force (lbf) of thrust at sea level.

The New Glenn will also stand 95 meters (313 feet) tall and be capable of delivering 45 metric tons (49.6 US tons) to LEO and 13 metric tons (14.33 US tons) to GTO. Much like the animation that was released in 2017, the latest video shows the New Glenn conducting a cargo delivery mission to space. It concludes with the first stage making a powered landing aboard a retrieval ship while the second stage delivers its payload to space.

However, the new video shows a different payload fairing being used on the rocket and focuses more on the cargo being delivered. In the previous video, the rocket used a bullet-shaped nose cone that measured 5.4 meters (17 feet) in diameter. In contrast, the updated animation features a two-piece nose cone that measures 7 meters (23 feet) in diameter and falls away once the second stage reaches deployment altitude.

new-glenn-large2-580x374.jpg

According to Blue Origin, this configuration offers greater capacity when launching payloads to LEO and about twice the payload volume of any existing launch vehicle. By comparison, the two-stage Falcon 9 Full Thrust stands 70 meters (230 feet) tall and has a cargo capacity of 22.8 metric tons (25 US tons) to LEO and a maximum of 8.3 metric tons (9.15 US tons) to GTO.

The Falcon Heavy, meanwhile, also measures 70 meters (feet) tall and is capable of delivering 63.8 metric tons (70.3 US tons) to LEO and 26.7 metric tons (29.43 US tons) to GTO. Blue Origin also boasts that the New Glenn will be able to launch and land in 95% of weather conditions, making it a reliable option for customers looking to launch payloads to space.

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#8 2019-01-28 06:03:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,455

Re: Blue Origin

With Bezos worth $160 billion  and rising, I doubt Blue Origin will lack money resources - but I guess there are only so many briliant rocket engineers, ideal astronauts and so on to go round.

Bezos's dream seems to be creating orbital living structures. If that is the focus then Blue Origin will be complementary to Musk's Mars focus.  I could see orbital living structures being popular for tourism, honeymoons, and maybe medical facilties. Re the latter, maybe mega rich sports stars with injuries would go into orbital space for a no G or low G experience which might aid recovery. Likewise, arthritis sufferers might find relief. Same might be true of asthma sufferers, who might want to get away from all that pollen. 


SpaceNut wrote:

Blue Origin has Shown off a New Video of its New Glenn Rocket Design

looks beautiful....
https://www.universetoday.com/wp-conten … launch.jpg

The design also specifies that the first stage will be able to conduct 25 missions before it needs to be retired. Based on the New Glenn’s design, Blue Origin claims that the rocket will be powered by 7 BE-4 engines that will rely on a combination of liquid oxygen (LOX) and liquid natural gas (LNG) to generate 17,100 kilonewtons (kN) or 3.85 million pound-force (lbf) of thrust at sea level.

The New Glenn will also stand 95 meters (313 feet) tall and be capable of delivering 45 metric tons (49.6 US tons) to LEO and 13 metric tons (14.33 US tons) to GTO. Much like the animation that was released in 2017, the latest video shows the New Glenn conducting a cargo delivery mission to space. It concludes with the first stage making a powered landing aboard a retrieval ship while the second stage delivers its payload to space.

However, the new video shows a different payload fairing being used on the rocket and focuses more on the cargo being delivered. In the previous video, the rocket used a bullet-shaped nose cone that measured 5.4 meters (17 feet) in diameter. In contrast, the updated animation features a two-piece nose cone that measures 7 meters (23 feet) in diameter and falls away once the second stage reaches deployment altitude.

https://www.universetoday.com/wp-conten … 80x374.jpg

According to Blue Origin, this configuration offers greater capacity when launching payloads to LEO and about twice the payload volume of any existing launch vehicle. By comparison, the two-stage Falcon 9 Full Thrust stands 70 meters (230 feet) tall and has a cargo capacity of 22.8 metric tons (25 US tons) to LEO and a maximum of 8.3 metric tons (9.15 US tons) to GTO.

The Falcon Heavy, meanwhile, also measures 70 meters (feet) tall and is capable of delivering 63.8 metric tons (70.3 US tons) to LEO and 26.7 metric tons (29.43 US tons) to GTO. Blue Origin also boasts that the New Glenn will be able to launch and land in 95% of weather conditions, making it a reliable option for customers looking to launch payloads to space.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#9 2019-01-28 14:17:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

Since SpaceNut did not show up yet, I will participate until someone else does.

This is said to be a part of the Blue Origins intentions.
https://www.geekwire.com/2018/blue-orig … ettlement/

I would think that all of the launch systems will attempt to compete for Military contracts, and satellite launching contracts.

But when it comes to dreams, I would think that yes Blue Origins and SpaceX could be assistive in accomplishing some of the things we might like.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-28 14:22:16)


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#10 2019-01-28 17:27:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

I did see your post but its while I am working still at 61 full time and its probably not going to change anytime soon.

I welcome the efforts that Blue Origin billionaire Jeff Bezos in laying out a plan to support the creation of permanent settlements on the moon with his target of moon landing by 2023 as an early step toward lunar settlement.

we’re actively working on the descent stage for Blue Moon, the capabilities, the partnerships that are required to enable that service … to start going back to the moon with larger and larger payloads.”

Blue Moon could help answer longstanding scientific questions about the moon’s origin and evolution, delve into lunar resource identification and extraction, and “enable human lunar return,”

Getting to the moon unless its via a BFR that Louis would like to see is the key for all companies to design for man and in particular a lander for cargo is a must as Nasa is looking for that as a COTS product for them to buy for the service of delivery.

Blue Origin has lots more on its agenda for the next few years, backed with a billion dollars a year from Bezos:
Its suborbital spaceship, New Shepard, is in the midst of uncrewed flight tests and could start carrying test passengers by the end of 2018.
Its BE-4 rocket engine, fueled by liquefied natural gas, is being manufactured in Kent and tested at the company’s West Texas facility.
Its orbital-class New Glenn rocket, which will make use of BE-4 rocket engines, is under development at Blue Origin’s Florida factory and is due to have its first launch in 2020. Several satellite launch deals already have been struck for the early 2020s.

They do have a lot on the plate it seems but its do able.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_Blue_Moon

170405-blue-origin-1-630x544.jpg

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#11 2019-03-05 16:46:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

https://tech.economictimes.indiatimes.c … p/68220264

I wonder which direction they will eventually go with their upper booster.  Wet Lab, or Reusable like Starship?  Something else?

Done.


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#12 2019-03-05 17:22:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

The cosmic vision of Jeff Bezos.
https://spacenews.com/the-cosmic-vision-of-jeff-bezos/
Quote(s):

A life of stasis would be population control, combined with energy rationing. That is the stasis world that you live in if you stay. And even with improvements in efficiency, you’ll still have to ration energy. That, to me, doesn’t sound like a very exciting civilization for our grandchildren’s grandchildren to live in. And we don’t have to have that. The solar system can support a trillion humans. And then we’d have a thousand Mozarts, and a thousand Einsteins. Think how incredible and dynamic that civilization would be.

I believe his notions are like space stations, and O'Neill Cylinder Habitats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_habitat


Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-03-05 17:28:56)


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#13 2019-04-16 19:27:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

I enjoyed the latest post by Louis on "Starship is a go".

But in watching the linked video, I found this as well, which is nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swz9HDro2rQ


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#14 2019-05-01 07:38:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

Something to watch for.  A possible announcement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shackleton_(crater)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/blue-ori … 55308.html
https://www.geekwire.com/2019/blue-orig … n-mission/

In searching on this I also discovered that while the New Glen will use a BE4 engine for the 1st stage, the New Armstrong will have a BE5 engine apparently.  I am going to guess it will be a better engine.

But we will have to see.  One thing that is nice about Blue Origins so far, is that they are more consistent on their indicated timelines of projected activities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-01 07:42:33)


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#15 2019-05-07 19:57:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

Here is a newer depiction of "New Glen", where it appears that the landing legs are now much more like that of Falcon 9.
https://www.blueorigin.com/new-glenn/

Now, good thing I am not a SpaceX employee.  I do admire SpaceX, but I am excited for all three of the existing and proposed rocket systems that Blue Origin seems to project.

For the New Glen booster, I think a longer gliding angle is possible than for Falcon 9, and I am not sure, but it may allow more speed to be dissipated by aerodynamics, and perhaps better navigation through the atmosphere.

I will want to see any new tricks that SpaceX, Super Heavy might use for gliding.  Interesting though, I believe that Super Heavy will return to launch site.

Stuff to learn ahead I guess.

Hmmm....That 2nd stage.  I think it uses the BE3 engines.  Seems to me that down the road, these things might be re-purposed for a use in orbit, or maybe even as a Lunar Hopper/Lander.  Of course a platform system for landing would be needed.  All those engines and tanks.  Maybe....Someday.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-07 20:02:14)


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#16 2019-05-07 21:23:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Did a quick peek at the capabilities and its not quite what a moon mission will need as the LEO is 43MT with GEO just 13MT or roughly the mass of a space x dragon....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Glenn

https://spacenews.com/blue-origin-study … er-stages/

So if its not big enough what would you do is redesign it so that it is larger and more capable.

https://www.geekwire.com/2019/jeff-bezo … y-florida/


https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/new … glenn.html

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#17 2019-05-08 11:43:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

SpaceNut, this review, indicates that two stage New Glen is ~~~Equivalent to Falcon Heavy:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ev … ORM=VRDGAR

And this indicates that subsequently there may be a three stage version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Glenn … ifications
Quote:

The New Glenn is a 7-meter-diameter (23 ft) two-stage orbital launch vehicle with a reusable first stage[10] and an expendable second stage.[23] An optional third stage was envisaged with a single BE-3U engine, and was planned as of October 2018.[28]

So, as Dr. Zubrin seems OK with a Falcon Heavy for a Moon base I have to imagine a potential for New Glen in that purpose.






Quote the SpaceNut: (Evermore)

Did a quick peek at the capabilities and its not quite what a moon mission will need as the LEO is 43MT with GEO just 13MT or roughly the mass of a space x dragon....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Glenn
https://spacenews.com/blue-origin-study … er-stages/
So if its not big enough what would you do is redesign it so that it is larger and more capable.
https://www.geekwire.com/2019/jeff-bezo … y-florida/

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/new … glenn.html

As for Blue Moon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_Blue_Moon
Quote:

Blue Origin Blue Moon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to navigation
Jump to search
Blue Origin Blue Moon

Spacecraft properties
Manufacturer
Blue Origin
Payload mass
4,500 kg (9,900 lb)[1]

Start of mission
Launch date
2024 (proposed)[2]
Rocket
Space Launch System, Atlas V, New Glenn, or Vulcan

Moon lander
Landing site
Lunar south pole

The Blue Origin Blue Moon is a proposed robotic space cargo carrier and lander for making cargo deliveries to the Moon. Designed and operated by Blue Origin for use on the Blue Moon mission aimed for 2024,[2][3][4] Blue Moon derives from the vertical landing technology used in Blue Origin's New Shepard sub-orbital rocket.[5]
The lander is planned to be capable of delivering 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) to the surface of the Moon.[1] The cargo vehicle could also be used to support NASA activities in cis-lunar space,[6] or transport payloads of ice from Shackleton Crater to support space activities.[7] The first projected mission for the craft would be a 2024 lunar south pole landing.[2] It is proposed that a series of landings could be used to deliver the infrastructure for a Moon base.[3][4][8]

Well, I am inclined to think that such a device could deliver crew to the base.  Provided they are in space suits on the way down, and have extra consumable packs that can be deployed to their hands, or a rickshaw cart.

While this may seem careless, it is my opinion that if you have a base with a pressurized section, then there is much less reason to have a pressurized "LEM".

If your crew delivery vehicle lands off site, then you need a rescue Blue Moon.  If it crashes, then probably the crew is dead in any case.  Still if they have chances of survival, then land a rescue Blue Moon with some rescue personal.

But then this assumes that Starship, and New Armstrong, and other devices will not be available.


I would say that although we do not want fatalities, we should expect the Lunar environment to be at least as lethal over time as Antarctica, or climbing Mt. Everest.  An unwelcome reality is that fatalities will occur if you send people into space.  These facts considered, will not excuse carelessness, and serious evaluation of risks.


……


Why Shackleton Crater?
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2019/05/01/ … l-failure/


Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-08 12:00:08)


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#18 2019-05-08 14:13:23

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,455

Re: Blue Origin


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#19 2019-05-08 18:33:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Here are 2 more citations of capability for going to the moon and stand corrected with the newer capability...

Falcon Heavy or New Glenn for New Moon Plans New Glenn with a third stage would be able to deliver more payload.


Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin Is Designing a 'Large Lunar Lander' called Blue Moon

The billionaire Amazon CEO has long expressed ambitions to build a formidable, low-cost space exploration company capable of shuttling paying customers into low-Earth orbit. Bezos has also expressed ambitions to orchestrate a moon landing by 2023 and to eventually establish a lunar colony.

https://www.inverse.com/article/55473-n … ts-compare

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#20 2019-05-09 07:32:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

Good materials from you guys.

I would like to state some speculative opinion on possible futures on this stuff.

Over time we can expect realities to change.  Things that could change reality might be:
1-Oxygen and water from the Moon to LEO and L1-5, ect.
2-Water and Carbon from NEO's or maybe even Mars/Phobos/Demos.  Neo's will more likely.
3-Magnetic Heat Shields.
4-Fusion Rockets, perhaps triggered with Antimatter.
5-Some other thing(s)???

In the case where 1 and/or 2 work out well, then we can suppose both accelerated/better facilitated trips to places like Mars.

Also, in the case where 1 and/or 2 work out well, we can suppose that a ship like starship can go from the Earth's surface to LEO, without significant consumables for a landing back on Earth.  That is rather than carrying up Oxygen, Methane, and water to facilitate a landing, it might carry up more cargo, and be refilled with landing consumables in orbit from Extraterrestrial sources.  This would change things a lot in the future.  It might even facilitate a more retro-propulsive method of LEO>Earth Surface.  (However, I would prefer to see magnetic heat shields come into existence).

As for #3, one of our members indicated that that would have value.  Might have been Kbd512, maybe IanM??  Well for one thing it would facilitate aerocapture maneuvers, as the magnetic field could be throttled during the aerocapture process.  I am thinking that for Starship, eventually the heatshield of "Pica" might be assisted with a patchwork of magnetics, instead of active cooling.  In that case a failure of the magnetic shielding should only result in an undesired char on the Pica in those selected locations.

As for a combination of 3 and 4, and with the buildup of infrastructure in orbit, it can be speculated that eventually interplanetary transfer ships that do not land, or seldom land (Perhaps never on Earth), will replace Starship as an interplanetary device.

Specialization of landing vehicle types will then be likely.  One that works best for Earth, one for the Moon, one for Mars.

But, that is not to slam Starship.  I think that a generalist device is appropriate at this time.

#5....There are probably other things that will show up that also will change rocket realities.  We should not get excessively rigid in what we think might eventually be possible.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-05-09 07:45:28)


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#21 2019-05-09 21:16:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Blue Origin

So, Jeff Bezos/Blue Origin really came through I my view.

There is a video on this link that shows Blue Moon as a robotic delivery system:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech … ar-lander/
Here are some other links, some pictures depict a pressurized cabin/assent vehicle on top of Blue Moon:
https://www.space.com/blue-origin-revea … ander.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/jeff-be … ander.html
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Bl … &FORM=VIRE

It turns out Blue Moon will use a new engine, the BE7.  It will be Hydrogen/Oxygen, and highly throttleable.

It is not totally clear to me that it is reusable.  I think it may be, at least in some cases.
But if I am wrong, it would not be the worst mistake of my life.

I believe that Blue Moon can launch on several rockets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_Blue_Moon
Quote:

Blue Origin's president Rob Myerson said that the proposed lander could be optimized to use NASA's Space Launch System (SLS) rocket, but could also be launched with Blue Origin's New Glenn and ULA's Atlas V[6][1] and next-generation Vulcan launch vehicle.

Jeff Bezos definitely said that what he was after was O'Neill habitats. 

In case you think I don't care about SpaceX/Starship, no.  I think the various space sub-programs will mostly complement each other.
SpaceX is likely to get provisioning from the Moon efforts, to make the Mars efforts far more vigorous, and likely to work out.

I am very excited and happy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-05-09 21:29:25)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#22 2019-05-10 20:12:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Amazon's Bezos unveils lunar lander project 'Blue Moon'

Details to the moon lander seems that its a bit small as the image suggests as well.

blue-origin-blue-moon-lunar-lander-artwork-001-hg.jpg

three metric tons empty, 15 fully fueled, and be capable of carrying 3.6 tons to the lunar surface -- or 6.5 in a variant model.

It is supported by four legs, with an upper deck where equipment can be fixed. A large tank of liquefied nitrogen fuel occupies its center.

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#23 2019-05-10 20:41:35

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,840

Re: Blue Origin

For SpaceNut ....

By any chance can you provide the source for your quoted material below?  The "large tank of liquefied nitrogen"  caught my eye.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Amazon's Bezos unveils lunar lander project 'Blue Moon'

three metric tons empty, 15 fully fueled, and be capable of carrying 3.6 tons to the lunar surface -- or 6.5 in a variant model.

It is supported by four legs, with an upper deck where equipment can be fixed. A large tank of liquefied nitrogen fuel occupies its center.

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#24 2019-05-11 08:12:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,796

Re: Blue Origin

Click on the picture, the parameters seem that its a very small lander when compared to the LM of Apollo and even smaller when compared to the Apollo on steriods lander Altiar. We do have several topics with the lunar outpost and Altiar in the Human folder of the forum. The topic of the lander was discussed as well in the Apollo 11 redux topic.

Not sure how a liquid nitrogen fuel would work at this time but its not as cyrogenic as hydrogen for boil off loss but its still there.

Gw ran the numbers for a Dragon variants for if that was used as a lander and while it could land ok the issue was that even after a refueling it did not have the engine capability to get back to orbit.

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#25 2019-05-11 09:07:59

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,840

Re: Blue Origin

For SpaceNut re #24 ...

Thanks for the tip about the link from the picture.  The text does indeed describe a large Nitrogen tank.  I had assumed the author of the piece was in error, because the engine for that vehicle burns LOX and LH2.  A tank full of inert gas could serve some purpose, of course, but combustion seems unlikely.

Can anyone shed light on how Bezos and his team are planning to use a large tank of liquid Nitrogen?   I asked Mr. Google several different ways, and came up with nothing to explain this apparent error.

A combustible substance can burn, and if nitrogen could burn, all life on earth would have been destroyed long ago. Nitrogen gas makes up some 78 percent of the earth's atmosphere. ... However, nitrogen can combust in certain unusual circumstances.Apr 5, 2018
Is Nitrogen Combustible? | Sciencing
https://sciencing.com/nitrogen-combustible-5397514.html

https://sciencing.com/nitrogen-combustible-5397514.html

The circumstances under which Nitrogen experiences combustion seem far fetched to me, in the context of a Moon lander.

Edit: Speaking of writer errors ... try this one!  I'm not going to reveal the publication because they are generally reliable:

The lander will utilize Blue Origin's new BE-7 engines, which the company will begin testing this summer, Bezos said. Those new engines will be powered by a combination of liquid hydrogen (LH2) and liquid oxygen (LOX), which is "not how Apollo did it," Bezos said. Although Apollo's command modules — which stayed in orbit while the lunar modules went to the surface — did use LH2/LOX for fuel, the landers ran on battery power.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-05-11 09:26:20)

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