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#51 2019-10-18 17:07:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

The threatening of another governement shutdown if the investigations and impeachment continues to go forward should tell you something about the level of the crimes committed.

The band wagon is still loading but the train is coming as another in the Former Ohio Gov.John Kasich Calls for Impeachment

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#52 2019-10-19 17:03:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

The other train exiting the WH starts slowly Florida GOP lawmaker who's undecided on impeaching Trump decides not to seek re-election for a third term in 2020.

Next up is walking back the choice for the G7 meeting which would lead to impeachment as well.

After Criticism, Trump to Select New Location for G7

Caving To Pressure, Trump Cans Plans To Hold G-7 At Trump Doral. ... a former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party. ... claiming that of all the possible locations all over the country, Trump’s property was the best suited for the international conference.

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#53 2019-10-28 17:49:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

The call for a vote in the house is getting ever closer to happening Speaker Nancy Pelosi, time to hold a House impeachment inquiry vote to impeach near end of week....

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#54 2019-11-03 21:06:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Taking a page out of the trump play book from the Russian probe The whistleblower is willing to answer GOP questions in writing

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#55 2019-11-11 22:21:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

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#56 2019-11-21 19:17:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Testimony has been quite damming and to the point that Trump directed the activity that was Gordon D. Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, delivered damaging testimony about what he witnessed as one of the Trump proxies orbiting Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, as they pushed Ukraine to announce the investigations.

Mr. Sondland said there was a clear quid pro quo that attached a condition...

Republicans Seek to Muddy Impeachment Evidence as Their Defense of Trump

The White House’s former top Europe and Russia expert sharply denounced what she called a “fictional narrative” embraced by President Trump and his Republican allies that Ukraine, not Russia, interfered in the 2016 elections, testifying that the claim at the center of the impeachment inquiry was a fabrication by Moscow that had harmed the United States.

Trump has been trying to make the claim that it was not Russia but the Ukraine instead that meddled in our election. Testifying on the final day of the week’s public impeachment hearings, the expert, Fiona Hill, tied Mr. Trump’s pressure campaign on Ukraine to a dangerous effort by Russia to sow political divisions in the United States and undercut American diplomacy. Her testimony before the House Intelligence Committee was an implicit rebuke to the president, suggesting that when he pressed Ukraine to investigate the theory that Kyiv rather than Moscow undertook a concerted campaign to meddle in the 2016 campaign, he was playing into Russia’s hands for his own political gain.

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#57 2019-11-21 19:31:53

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Hill was completely embarrassed by a Republican representative who pointed all her evidence was all hearsay. But also that she claimed the Republicans were trying to deny that Russia had launched an interference attempt on the US election - it was fully accepted by the Republicans when in a majority in the House. So the usual load of baloney.

I can't believe how weak the evidence presented has been so far - leave aside whether Trump had the right as President to encourage Ukraine to investigate the Biden corruption, given several witnesses have confirmed the Biden connection had the potential to appear corrupt.


SpaceNut wrote:

Testimony has been quite damming and to the point that Trump directed the activity that was Gordon D. Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, delivered damaging testimony about what he witnessed as one of the Trump proxies orbiting Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, as they pushed Ukraine to announce the investigations.

Mr. Sondland said there was a clear quid pro quo that attached a condition...

Republicans Seek to Muddy Impeachment Evidence as Their Defense of Trump

The White House’s former top Europe and Russia expert sharply denounced what she called a “fictional narrative” embraced by President Trump and his Republican allies that Ukraine, not Russia, interfered in the 2016 elections, testifying that the claim at the center of the impeachment inquiry was a fabrication by Moscow that had harmed the United States.

Trump has been trying to make the claim that it was not Russia but the Ukraine instead that meddled in our election. Testifying on the final day of the week’s public impeachment hearings, the expert, Fiona Hill, tied Mr. Trump’s pressure campaign on Ukraine to a dangerous effort by Russia to sow political divisions in the United States and undercut American diplomacy. Her testimony before the House Intelligence Committee was an implicit rebuke to the president, suggesting that when he pressed Ukraine to investigate the theory that Kyiv rather than Moscow undertook a concerted campaign to meddle in the 2016 campaign, he was playing into Russia’s hands for his own political gain.


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#58 2019-11-23 15:52:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal lawyer, has information on meetings Nunes allegedly had with former Ukrainian prosecutor general Victor Shokin. House armed services committee said Saturday that Republican Rep. Devin Nunes is likely to face an ethics investigation over allegations he met with an ex-Ukrainian prosecutor at the center of the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. Shokin, who was ousted from his position for not pursuing corruption against Ukraine's politicians, has been the subject of conservative conspiracy theories that claim Biden forced the country to fire him to stymie an investigation into Burisma, a Ukrainian energy company that his son sat on the board of.

The impeachment inquiry into Donald Trump’s Ukraine dealings has hit a lull after a busy week of witness testimony. Now, all eyes have turned to the high court, where justices are weighing whether to take two cases about the president’s taxes that could end up influencing impeachment proceedings.

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#59 2019-11-23 16:20:21

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
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Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Shokin, who was ousted from his position for not pursuing corruption against Ukraine's politicians, has been the subject of conservative conspiracy theories that claim Biden forced the country to fire him to stymie an investigation into Burisma, a Ukrainian energy company that his son sat on the board of.

These are serious allegations. Since Biden is running for President, Congress really needs to investigate these claims.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#60 2019-11-23 18:01:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Alternative conspiracy theory without any fact to explain what is percieved..Trump's man  Graham’s investigation indulges an unsubstantiated right-wing theory that Biden pushed Ukraine to fire a prosecutor in order to shield Hunter, who was serving on the board of Burisma Holdings, a Ukranian natural gas company, at the time....The allegation that Joe Biden tried to fire the Ukrainian prosecutor investigating his son Hunter Biden’s Ukrainian gas firm employer has been debunked, and there is no evidence the ex-vice president did anything improper.

Trump impeachment: released documents reveal Giuliani-Pompeo links on: November 23, 2019 Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani was in contact with secretary of state Mike Pompeo in the months before the US ambassador to Ukraine was abruptly recalled, according to a cache of documents released by on Friday.
Rudy Giuliani was given direct access to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo as a shadow effort to smear the American ambassador to Ukraine and dig up dirt on Democrats unfolded. The State Department released the documents to the group American Oversight in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. They show that Pompeo talked with Giuliani on March 26 and March 29.

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#61 2019-11-23 18:02:17

kbd512
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Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Terraformer,

We're only allowed to investigate potential legal violations if it hurts Republicans and helps Democrats.  That's the one and only time that our Democrats are concerned with following our laws and our Constitution.  When Democrats loose an election, the reason must be that the law was violated.  The only other alternative explanation is that our voters didn't want them in office.

There's an unwritten law stating that Republicans are not allowed to be elected to office if Democrats disapprove.  The Democrats have veto power over the voters, apparently.  If the voters happen to vote for someone or something that the Democrats disapprove of, they'll run off to the courts to try to get their way and ignore the voters.

Isn't that painfully obvious?

How much more obvious does this farce have to become?

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#62 2019-11-24 16:13:54

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

The many times Donald Trump's acquaintances suddenly became strangers with this latest catch phrase 'I don't know him' after Ambassador Gordon Sondland tells it – under oath, no less – he and President Donald Trump go-to guy on Ukraine and a star witness in the House impeachment inquiry, testified that Trump directed him and others to work with his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to pressure Ukraine to publicly announce supposed anti-corruption investigations that Trump was seeking.

Under oath, Sondland confirmed the existence of a “quid pro quo” in which Ukraine was urged to announce an investigation into Joe Biden, one of Trump’s political rivals. In exchange, Ukraine would get the U.S. military aid it desperately wanted, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky would get a White House meeting.

All of the while Trump is attacking the corrupt Ukraine it is seen as United States Is Starting to Look Like Ukraine

Adam Schiff claims case against Trump is 'ironclad' but won't say if he'll be impeached with the case of obstruction of congress the next actionable item on the plate....

Schiff: Impeachment Report Now Being Written, But More Hearings Still Possible

Top Dem says ethics investigation into Devin Nunes likely

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#63 2019-11-28 13:27:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Trump is at the southern white house but he is not celebrating as Not much for Trump to be thankful for in latest impeachment news

While House Democrats concluded their public hearings last Thursday in the impeachment inquiry of Donald Trump, a flurry of new developments and disclosures this week appeared to increase the odds that he will become the third U.S. president to face a trial in the Senate that could (although most likely won’t) end with his removal from office.

The evidence of acts and of whom directed the quid quo pro....

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#65 2019-12-01 13:04:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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#66 2019-12-02 20:35:17

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Trump has been distancing himself from his man in the Ukraine ...New charges are likely in case against Rudy Giuliani associates, prosecutors say

Well he did say that if he was going to go down that everyone would do so as well...

Of course his many yes men are circling the wagons to create false statements for everything to claim that its a witch hunt... Barr disputes key inspector general finding about FBI’s Russia investigation conclusions on the origins of the Russia investigation. Still trying to say that it was biased Trump mocks FBI's Lisa Page, again citing debunked text-message conspiracy

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#68 2019-12-07 17:25:03

kbd512
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Posts: 3,586

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

SpaceNut,

If the Democrats ever cared about our Constitution or following our laws, then it's not at all apparent from the pervasive lawlessness of the Obama administration.  This is a witch hunt and it's only becoming more and more painfully obvious by the day.  A Republican winning elected office is not a crime, no matter what the Democrats claim to the contrary.  They lost because they ran a candidate who was wildly unpopular, even amongst Democrats, who were her only likely voters.

The Democrats lost the 2016 Presidential election because the lunacy of the radical left is not something the average American voter thinks very highly of.  If they choose to continue with their false narrative, that only their supporters are buying into, along with all the other whiny crybaby nonsense about how terrible the world is when they're not in power, while doing nothing at all for the American people, then they're right on track to lose the 2020 Presidential election as well.

Here's a revolutionary thought for our Democrats.  If they hate President Trump so much, which their media sycophants clearly do, then put forth a genuine moderate candidate who's not a radical anti-social power-mad lunatic that will say or do anything to get elected.  That didn't work out for Mrs. Clinton and it won't work for their next candidate, either.  Basically, try putting forth a centrist who's politics don't skew so far into left field that they're no longer on the map that the majority of the American electorate can even recognize.

Thus far the Democrat Party put forth candidates who are self-described socialists, have literally eaten dirt (O'Rourke) - to what end nobody else knows, old men call other old men fat and challenging them to push-up contests (Biden), and another angry old woman / fake Native American (Warren) who doesn't even know how much what she's proposing will actually cost.  The only candidate I've ever seen the Democrat Party produce in recent years that I'd ever vote for is Tulsi Gabbard.  She's far and away the most sane and rational and pragmatic of the lot, which would be why Democrat-run propaganda organizations, masquerading as news media, have spared no attempt at character assassinating her.  The rest of them have magical thinking ideas, pure evil ideas- like Bloomberg (Mr. "We need to make poor people even poorer by taxing them more to make them live longer in a state of poverty"), or utterly moronic ideas- like Yang (Mr. "We need to give money to everyone simply because they exist, and somehow that's going to make life better").

Why can't you guys dig up another Jack Kennedy somewhere, or have you run all of the level-headed Americans out of your party?

You do realize that President Trump was a card-carrying Democrat before the 2016 Presidential election, right?

Apart from the various structural and systemic problems, the insanity of the Democrats' divisive identity politics is what ails America, not the desire to return to traditional American values.  To offer a compelling alternative, you guys really need to remake your party from within.  Drop the 24/7 hateful and spiteful media rhetoric.  Drop the identity politics.  Drop the socialism / communism.  None of those things are doing America any favors and they're not winning any supporters.  Watch some videos of Jack's speeches and interactions with the public to understand what the Democrat Party used to be all about.  It certainly wasn't about pitting brother against brother over some ideological purity nonsense.

Please come back to us.

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#69 2019-12-07 21:02:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

I have seen these ads that make false claims to what happened and saying that its ok to do what was done. Supporting President Trump’s reelection with several thousand ads targeting Democratic leadership specifically and calling the impeachment a “scam” and a “hoax.” which are being pulled by twitter, facebook, tv and more with GOP big-money groups in lockstep with their anti-impeachment messaging, running ads for the Trump campaign.

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#70 2019-12-07 22:15:21

kbd512
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Posts: 3,586

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

SpaceNut,

Impeachment is a scam, just like Russian collusion was a hoax.

Believing something doesn't make it true, it just makes it someone's belief.  In the American system of justice, accusations of crimes require tangible evidence.  Extraordinary accusations require extraordinary evidence.  No such evidence has been presented.

The Democrats' political games have played out.  They've made every wild accusation and claim imaginable, all without compelling evidence.

Tell the Democrats to stop wasting the American peoples' time with their political games and get back to the peoples' business.

If the Democrats wish to regain the Presidency, then they're go to have to do it the old fashioned way by winning votes.

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#71 2019-12-07 22:47:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Impeachment does not necessarily have to be a violation of an ordinary criminal statute. Alexander Hamilton described impeachable crimes in one of the Federalist Papers as “those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust.

impeachment-600.png

Trump’s invitations for foreign powers to attack his domestic political opponents now have all the power of the White House behind them.

Critics say this is a plain abuse of that power and stinks of despotism.And it undermines US national security because it places Trump’s personal agenda first. In America, l’état, c’est pas moi.

Trump is also accused of undermining the integrity of US elections, violating the civil rights of the US citizens he is calling out for foreign attack, and violating campaign finance laws by soliciting foreign help. The Trump administration also stands accused of obstruction of justice for resisting congressional subpoenas for documents and testimony relating to the crisis.

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#72 2019-12-07 23:19:36

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,586

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

SpaceNut,

President Trump asking other countries that the Democrats received money from during the 2016 Presidential Election to work with our Justice Department is not a crime, nor is it an abuse of power, nor a bribe, nor collusion, nor any of the other utter nonsense that the Democrats will claim next.  Democrats can make accusations until they're blue in the face, but nobody else is buying it.  We're tired of them crying "wolf" when its so obvious that there is no wolf.  None of his critics have managed to come up with any tangible evidence, only their political ideology and blind hatred towards someone they disagree with over political ideology, which is why they've all been ushered off the political stage.  The audience isn't having any of it.  This scam isn't working, so tell the Democrats to try winning an election.  If they don't win, it's not the fault of the other political party.  It's the Democrats' fault for not doing anything constructive for the American electorate.  Period.

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#73 2019-12-08 19:19:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

Asking for money for a favor is a problem,,,,taking a donation and not asking anything of it is not as thats volunteered while the other is not.
Nadler Says Without Impeachment, Trump May ‘Rig’ 2020 Vote

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#74 2019-12-08 21:14:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

There appears to be eight thematic areas, most of which include more than one violation.

1. Obstruction of justice.

Both the Nixon and Clinton articles included the phrase “prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice,” and Trump’s impeachment should start with his pattern of obstructing investigations.

He has admitted that he fired the F.B.I. director to influence the investigation of his own campaign. He has harassed Justice Department officials who are Russia experts, including Andrew McCabe and Bruce Ohr. Trump also directed his White House counsel to lie about their conversations over whether to fire Robert Mueller. Most recently, the White House tried to hide evidence about Trump’s phone call with Ukraine’s president, by improperly classifying material about it.

2. Contempt of Congress.

Another article of impeachment against Nixon said that he had “failed without lawful cause” to cooperate with a congressional investigation. Trump has gone much further than Nixon, outright refusing to participate in the constitutionally prescribed impeachment process. As a result, the country still doesn’t know the full truth of the Ukraine scandal.

3. Abuse of power.

The House will almost certainly adopt a version of this article, impeaching Trump for turning American foreign policy into a grubby opposition-research division of his campaign.

The most haunting part is that if a courageous whistle-blower hadn’t come forward, Trump most likely would have gotten away with it. He would have pressured the Ukrainian government to announce an investigation of the Bidens, and we in the media would have played along, producing the headlines that Trump wanted to see.

4. Impairing the administration of justice.

That phrase appears in the second impeachment article against Nixon, which detailed his efforts to use the I.R.S., F.B.I. and others to hound his opponents. It’s a version of abuse of power — but distinct from the previous item because it involves using the direct investigatory powers of the federal government.

Trump has repeatedly called for investigations against his political opponents, both in public and in private with aides. For example, as the as the Mueller report documented, he pressured Jeff Sessions, then the attorney general, to investigate Hillary Clinton: “You’d be a hero,” Trump said. This behavior has violated the constitutional rights of American citizens and undermined the credibility of the judicial system.

5. Acceptance of emoluments.

The Constitution forbids the president from profiting off the office by accepting “emoluments.” Yet Trump continues to own his hotels, allowing politicians, lobbyists and foreigners to enrich him and curry favor with him by staying there. On Sunday, William Barr, the attorney general, personally paid for a 200-person holiday party at Trump’s hotel in downtown Washington.

The Democratic-controlled House has done an especially poor job of calling attention to this corruption. It hasn’t even conducted good oversight hearings — a failure that, as Bob Bauer, an N.Y.U. law professor and former White House counsel, told me, “is just astonishing.”

6. Corruption of elections.

Very few campaign-finance violations are impeachable. But $280,000 in undisclosed hush-money payments during a campaign’s final weeks isn’t a normal campaign-finance violation. The 2016 election was close enough — decided by fewer than 80,000 votes across three swing states — that the silence those payments bought may well have flipped the outcome.

president-trump-abused-power-improperly-put-thumb-scale

7. Abuse of pardons.

The president has wide latitude to issue pardons. But Trump has done something different: He has encouraged people to break the law (or impede investigations) with a promise of future pardons.

And he didn’t do it only during the Russia investigation. He also reportedly told federal officials to ignore the law and seize private land for his border wall, waving away their worries with pardon promises.

8. Conduct grossly incompatible with the presidency.

This is the broadest item on the list, and I understand if some people are more comfortable with the narrower ones. But the “grossly incompatible” phrase comes from a 1974 House Judiciary Committee report justifying impeachment. It also captures Trump’s subversion of the presidency.

He lies constantly, eroding the credibility of the office. He tries to undermine any independent information that he does not like, which weakens our system of checks and balances. He once went so far as to say that federal law-enforcement agents and prosecutors regularly fabricated evidence — a claim that damages the credibility of every criminal investigation.

You may have forgotten about that particular violation of his oath of office, because Trump commits so many of them. Which is all the more reason to make an effort to hold him accountable.

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#75 2019-12-08 21:44:10

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,586

Re: Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

SpaceNut,

1. The FBI Director was leaking classified information to the media.  His bureau also used falsified documents to obtain a warrant to spy on President Trump from a FISA court, which is a federal crime.  A lawyer appointed by former President Obama recommended that former Director Comey be fired, so he was.

2. President Trump is in no way compelled to participate in the impeachment process.  This is the way a charge of contempt works.  Congress demands something.  You say, "No thanks, I'm not complying".  Congress goes to a court.  If the court upholds the Congressional demand, then you're in contempt if you don't comply.  If the court doesn't uphold the demand, then you're not in contempt of anything.

3. The Democrats are accusing President Trump of doing exactly what they actually did to him using the FBI, CIA, and various foreign actors, which constitutes the dictionary definition of election interference.

The "courageous whistle blower" is so courageous that he won't show his face in Congress.  He's a cowardly little Democrat operative who thought he could initiate a coup against President Trump, and is being represented by liars, I mean lawyers, who tweeted out that they intended to start a coup against President Trump after he was sworn into office.

4. If President Trump's political opponents would stop bragging about breaking the law in open forums, then maybe he'd stop calling for investigations into them.  Once again, the party doing the accusing did exactly what they're accusing him of doing without evidence.

5. This is another obvious fraud, which would be why your exalted Democrat politicians have done such a poor job of "exposing the corruption".  It's because there isn't any that Democrat politicians actually care about.  They flew their staffs all over the world when President Obama was in office and none of the media ever uttered a peep about it.  He doesn't control any of the properties he owns right now, nor is he required to sell them, nor is any part of this claim valid in an actual court of law.

6. When former President Clinton was doing everything with a pair of legs, the Democrats never made a peep.  Weak sauce.

7. He did tell his officials to break the law?  We have evidence of this?  No, of course not- because if we did he'd be gone already.

8. When President Obama was lying his rear end off about a plan that's cost Americans hundreds of billions of dollars for more expensive health care, your media morons were singing his praises.

NOW HEAR THIS!

PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE DEMOCRATS HAPPY WHILE HE'S IN OFFICE.  DEMOCRATS DIDN'T ELECT HIM TO OFFICE.  PRESIDENT OBAMA NEVER REPRESENTED THE INTERESTS OF REPUBLICANS WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE.  TURNABOUT IS FAIR PLAY.

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