New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#201 2019-06-03 19:59:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Was looking for some more places that are doing shelter style work to give housing to the homeless vet. I think that maine has a couple of different places in Cabin in the Woods

small cottage home or camp with power

Cabin_Line_Up.jpg

https://www.servicelink.nh.gov/links/do … -guide.pdf

Of course I know of another that is a tiny home chapel site for veterans as well....

With these I would think that there would be less of a homeless population but I still see plenty each day and one was a vet that bikes around everywhere and sleeps in the open even in winter seldom going to a shelter....

If it were possible to built the image in post #177 or something simular it would give at least shelter....

Offline

#202 2019-06-05 19:31:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Offline

#203 2019-06-05 21:31:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Offline

#204 2019-06-06 19:45:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Offline

#205 2019-06-07 05:19:01

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,069

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut ...

Thanks for adding this to the topic ...

This morning I caught an extended discussion of this dilemma, including an interview with the mayor of Los Angeles, who expressed frustration.

Reading between the lines (not quite the right metaphor for a radio broadcast) I get the impression the situation is embarrassing.

The background analysis included mention that an apartment in Los Angeles now goes for $2,000 per month.  The report did not specify what level apartment this would be, so I have to assume it is an average.

In the past week or so, (it might have been one of the links you posted here), I read a report about the policy active in Helsinki, to address the homeless issue by providing homes, no questions asked.  The article included an interview with a public official, who said (as I recall) that the decision was made to address the root cause of homelessness by providing a (modest but real) home.  The city then helps the renter to solve the rest of whatever problems they may have, knowing that the person is working from a solid base.

I noted that the plan puts the individual on a normal financial footing from the start, by insuring they pay a rent (using a stipend as needed), so they are in the mode of normal money flows from the start.

It is a bit of a stretch to imagine Los Angeles undertaking a project like that.

(th)

Offline

#206 2019-06-07 19:27:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

ouch for the price tag...160 hrs a month to reach the price means a base earning 12.50 and thats at 100%

For California:
On January 1, 2019, the minimum wage will increase to $12 per hour.
On January 1, 2020, the minimum wage will increase to $13 per hour.
On January 1, 2021, the minimum wage will increase to $14 per hour.
On January 1, 2022, the minimum wage will increase to $15 per hour.

So not even a living wage to keep a roof over ones own head...


That said a safety net of a low income housing means that you have the roof if you keep working and you will feel like you are part of the dream but when its time to retire you will find that all you did was delay what will eventually happen as you do not have the funds to keep that roof over your head.

A full time minimum wage worker in New Hampshire working will earn $290.00 per week, or $15,080.00 per year. New Hampshire's minimum wage rate as of, 2019 is $7.25 per hour.

median price for apartment rentals running at $650 per month. Nashua Apartments.
August 2018, the average apartment rent in Manchester, NH is $873 for a studio, $1,152 for one bedroom, $1,382 for two bedrooms, and $1,497 for three bedrooms

So not much better in NH if you are only making the minimum wage levels....

Offline

#207 2019-06-11 10:33:15

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,069

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re #188

Thank for setting up this topic.  It should last as long as the nation does.

SpaceNut wrote:

So teaching a man a trade allows him to stay fed but teach a man to create a business means he can feed many. Our education system does not do that...
Being rich or intellegent does not go hand in hand, big dreams and dumb luck to create the business that creates the many jobs as well do not change the situation.
Meaningfull work of any type is just a job priority #1 but without someone that wants the end product you have no job not even a employer.
Being able to reduce one's expenses to being well below the earnings is the only way one gets out of poverty.

I like your summary in the quote above.  As a caveat, however, many businesses are set up for legal purposes, and many of those never employ anyone.

Still, the spirit of your observation is what I support.  A person "can" employ many.  The education system does appear to support education to create businesses at the college level, but I think it would be helpful if everyone is exposed to the expectation they will set up a business.  I'm focused on the US but the sentiment should work everywhere.   Even if a person never sets up a business, and always works for wages, it seems to me it would be helpful to have an idea of what it takes to set up and sustain a business.

An editorial in the local paper reported recently on a campaign to expose kids to factory jobs of today, to try to overcome stereotypes about dirty work places.

The piece is a bit self-serving, so I won't provide a link unless someone asks.  Instead, I'd like to summarize the campaign, and invite other forum members to comment.

The idea has been to set up "summer camps" to give lower school kids exposure to some of the occupations which still exist in the state where I live.

There will be 27 of these camps in this state this summer.  They last for a week, and a typical enrollment is 23 kids.

The days, organized by leaders in local schools, economic development and business, are chock-full of information, hands-on projects, in-person witnessing of various types of jobs, and sometimes even viewing the making of a product from start to finish.

The title of the piece is "Promoting factory jobs".

And that brings me back to the point you made, SpaceNut ... the camps are certainly a good idea, because future businesses are certainly going to need workers, but they continue the focus on JOBS which you have repeatedly spotlighted in your posts, and they DO NOT (as far as I can determine) offer a glimpse of what it takes to create a business in the first place.

In the My Hacienda topic which exists (as far as I know) ONLY on this forum, was opened (with the help of RobertDyck)  to create a conceptual framework in which up to 2750 people could define business activity upon which they would like to concentrate in the Mars setting. My expectation is that just about ANY business that might be imagined for Sagan City would work well right here on Earth.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-06-11 10:39:56)

Offline

#208 2019-06-11 20:12:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Creation of business job types come to mind for what we need when Mars is a near zero to start and must leverage after the work for the mission control has been fore filled such that you are making your own future once there.

For earth Jobs that pay come with distance and or moving costs which until the cash starved conditions that we are starting in leads to cost control measures to make it possible to save money so that one can climb out of poverty.

Transportation is over looked for getting that better job that pays more but it comes with a price tag for use.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-issues … s-for-2019
https://www.federalregister.gov/documen … for-moving


So milage x 2 of where you live to where you can work, is the loss one takes to make a living.

Jan. 1, 2019, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car (also vans, pickups or panel trucks) will be: 58 cents per mile driven for business use, which covers the fuel, wear and tare, registration, but not insurance or replacement repair inspections.

That said a simple 10 miles is is $11.60 for that one time use out of the hourly pay you are earning. So the farther one must travel the higher the cost will be to the vehicle operator. There are busses and other but for the most part its very limited use which can occur and its not emergency freindly when you really need to be somewhere else fast.

So 5 days a week it adds up fast what you need to set aside for the ability to keep a car or truck in use...so if you go by a place to shop for the daily or weekly food by you stop along the way so as to save a trip cost.

So one of the things that I have noted for the more traveled homeless is that they have a bike of some sort to aid with the cost of transportation and use the bus when its long distance that they must travel for the most part.

Offline

#209 2019-06-22 19:22:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Topics been quite for a bit so lets talk about those whom are looking to retire and still live comfortably...
See how you'll fare in retirement by taking the 70 percent challenge

Of course thats if you are 30% over the poverty line for when planning and you start you golden years in poverty still. Of course much depends on years that you can earn and how long you plan to live to make use of what you saved.

30 percent of your monthly spending is already going toward savings, in which case the 70 percent challenge does not sound to bad but you may be dreading sitting down with a legal pad and doing hours of math..of course there are many business, banks and more that will give you help for a nominal fee

Sure you can save a bit by cheaper to eat in than dine out plans, but it’s worth noting that you might be under estimating just how much you will be able to save by doing so.

other cuts might be in where you live or rent trying to trade the size of your home for a cheaper less costly to maintain one.

of course belt tightening will also be done on energy use of all forms in electricity, oil, gas used in the home and for the vehicles to be used.

other things will be cutting down on TV / cable and movies.

other measures might be to start a garden and grow your own vegetables, especially if you live in warmer climates with longer growing seasons or use a greenhouse. Sure there is up front cost for this in canning but you will stretch your food funds by doing so.

another cost will be that morning cup of coffee from the neighboring place brewing it at home or just learning how to go without it.

trying to buy in bulk but it may be more costly for some things

some think little about what they wear but when it comes down to it sewing skills will keep you from those costly clothes stretching out the funds

Not sure whom wrote the article but they must be well off since they begin to talk about cancelling gym memberships, credit card paybacks and living on less now to have more later....

when you are living in poverty you have already cut everything that you can do without

Offline

#210 2019-06-22 20:00:16

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,069

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re topic in general ....

Something I think I've noticed is that messages in this topic seem to be written from the point of view of job holders.  I don't recall seeing any messages written from the point of view of the job creator.  That could simply be because I haven't read every message in the topic.

There is  LOT of content in this forum's archive.  I entered a search for messages that contained "frame" and "tunnel" and found myself back in 2016 with GW Johnson and kbd512 discussing construction on Mars with someone who's been away for a while.  The discussion I happened upon was one that has reoccurred from time to time, about how much regolith is needed for radiation protection, and how strong supports should be if air pressure fails.

Back to this topic .... It is hard enough to secure and hold a job.  But it seems to me it is MUCH more difficult to create an enterprise which can provide jobs.

A simplistic answer to the topic might be: We have poverty in America because we lack job creators.  We have an ample supply of people who can hold jobs, if someone else has created a work flow that is simple to execute.  In recent posts we hinted at the problem of the education system creating people who can hold jobs, but NOT people who can create jobs.  It almost seems (to me at least) that job creators are successful DESPITE the education system, and not because of it.

Jobs go away when customers stop buying products.  Is that the fault of the job creator?  It certainly isn't the fault of the job holder. 

Jobs go away when weather (such as floods or hurricanes or fires) destroys infrastructure that supports jobs.

Jobs come into existence when job creators are inspired with ideas about how work might be done to meet a need of a customer, or a group of customers, and then take all the risks necessary to achieve a sustained positive return for all the investment made.  The wages paid to workers are paid from investor savings, and if the enterprise does not turn a profit, those savings are gone forever.

(th)

Offline

#211 2019-06-23 06:46:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

I think you have found the new topic on business creation, regolith thickness for radiation mitigation and weather could be under the global warming topics but with no new posts..

The thoughts of a carreer for life was one a long time ago...disappearing around the time of pensions

Its the value of the carreer job which is not equitable from what we do to the next as we place a higher value on one to the next.

Jobs of Some business will create more of one title versus those of another. Which creates the in opportunity for a good paying job locally.

Offline

#212 2019-06-24 19:18:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

A helping hand Little Free Pantry and the mini-pantry movement are sprouting up in many places near you....

Offline

#213 2019-06-25 22:26:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Beaver-Mines-D-889x583.jpg

Offline

#214 2019-06-26 18:01:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

It seems that the amount of emergency cash has not changed and many feel that 40% of Americans say recession has already begun if you’re still living paycheck-to-paycheck not making any headway.

Offline

#215 2019-07-08 18:59:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Not a thing for poverty but shows that we could be homeless for a variety of reasons including our own choices...

Ridgecrest Mayor Peggy Breeden said many of the city's residents are sleeping outside following the second powerful earthquake to hit their city in just two. Ridgecrest Mayor Peggy Breeden said many of the city's residents are sleeping outside following the second powerful earthquake to hit their city in just two days.

Hopefully this will be short lived....

Offline

#216 2019-07-10 16:55:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Offline

#217 2019-07-14 20:42:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Understanding Poverty we need to look at what we are now calling the middle class and understand what that number really means...
What income level is considered middle class in your state?

Found my state

New Hampshire

    2-person family middle-class income range: $50,038.95 to $149,370
    3-person family middle-class income range: $60,375.04 to $180,224
    4-person family middle-class income range: $73,400.51 to $219,106

So this is household family income and that could mean 1,2,3 or however many are being included into the number being taughted.

so a person on minimum wage and a child is poverty but 2 wage earners are now middle class at minimum wage....

Offline

#218 2019-07-28 15:02:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

A booming economy does not create more people that are slumping into poverty... As homelessness crisis grows, the Trump administration has made few new efforts other than to trying to walk back Obama-era policies designed to give the most vulnerable groups access to shelter and housing.

“State and local governments across the country are increasingly realizing that ending homelessness requires a deep commitment to those individuals and families living in our shelters and on our streets.” 2020 budget, the administration proposed spending $2.6 billion on homeless services — a 9% increase over the figure requested in 2019.

The budgets are not quite what they are indicating as the work for help is making it so that many are not getting help. The trouble is that the cheats are causing the issues for those that really need it and are not getting the help that they are in need of.

Offline

#219 2019-07-28 20:13:07

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,959

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut,

A booming economy does not create more people that are slumping into poverty

A booming economy doesn't negate the effects of alcohol and drug addictions, nor decades of policies intended to destroy our economy and our families.  Our economy was also booming after WWII, but most of the developed world outside of America was in ruins.  Importing millions of poor people from destitute Latin American countries isn't helping the homelessness problem, either.

I can tell that your Democrat politicians have no plans to address any of what ails America, not because they've largely inflicted upon America that which ails us, but because they keep pointing at President Trump as if that excuses their complete failure to do anything at all that resembles problem solving.  A proper compare-and-contrast would require that they had some different policy, or any policy at all really, other than "orange man bad".

Forget about the cheating and stealing for a moment and pretend that gainful employment requires that an opportunity to be gainfully employed actually exists and that someone must show up who is willing to do the work.  When was the last time Democrats even paid lip service to any of THAT?

Offline

#220 2019-07-29 17:41:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Fact is, 40 million people, about 12% of the population, earn less than the federal poverty line, $12,490 for a single person and $25,750 for a family of four. This number included 15.5 million children under the age of 18, and 4.6 million seniors 65 and older were in poverty. Which is not including the homeless.

The factors that limit success among the poor are not all that clear.

The most important a long time ago was low education levels which is not totally true these days.

Available local jobs are of weak skills usually part time or of the low pay for unskilled work.

Then correspondingly reduced incentive for many to remain in the job market with limited full time emplyment, and the difficulty in finding or keeping jobs if you have not the means for transportation.

Various “group-specific” barriers, such as growing up in a very poor family or neighborhood, having a criminal record or still in jail for life, being a non-custodial parent, or having a disability. Which as of recent include being an Alcoholic and Drug addict amoung other things.

There is no magical laundry list of things that will correct all of this over night. https://www.usich.gov/solutions/

Homelessness emerged as a national issue in the 1870s.

[url=https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500]]Homelessness Statistics by State[/url]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P … ted_States
1960 8 yr D
1968 8 yr R
1976 4 yr D
1980 12 yr R
1992 8 yr D
2000 8 yr R
2008 8 yr D

D = 8+4+8+8 = 28
R = 8+12+8 = 28

Both parties are equal to the blame....

Offline

#221 2019-07-29 20:25:07

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,959

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut,

I'm unaware of any simple solutions and I've yet to see a working solution from the Democrats (high openness, low conscientiousness types ) that produced the desired results.  If their policies had the desired effect, then poverty should've gone down at some point.  Since it didn't, it's clearly time to try something new.  They're supposed to be our "new ideas" people, so if they don't have the solutions then we're probably SOL.  The only new solutions I ever come up with are very narrowly focused on technology and training people to use that technology who are already highly skilled and experienced to begin with.  I can observe and infer causal links for a variety of problems, but I wouldn't even know where to begin on a problem like this.  I can tell you what employers are after, but that may not be of great utility to the employment of many of our poor people.  I do know that we can find a job for almost everyone.  The people we can't find jobs for probably can't hold a job for a variety of reasons.  In that particular case, we're well and truly SOL unless medical science has a properly tested new technology to rewire their brains.  If we did have tech like that, then we wouldn't be arguing over this issue.

Offline

#222 2019-07-29 21:16:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

My wife battled for social security diability after having her strokes and even then it required a judge to decide that she was not capable of working....She does not recieve a dime but the point is what or whom can or do you judge capability to work....Are we all to be steven hawkings and forced to do work...

If you can walk then you must be able to work....What are the defining lines for whom is expected and those that can not....and enforce the rules to catch those that can but are faking it such as to not work...

So for many walking is all the transportation that they can do as a bicycle is not something that they own..So lets say that distance is no more than 3-5 miles one way, just how many jobs are there in that distance?

As a nation for the most part we are very rural in nature and we lack a means other than hoofing it..

Offline

#223 2019-07-29 21:49:17

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,959

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut,

I guess that depends on how creative you are.  Mr. Hawking didn't allow a physical disability to prevent him from doing useful work for as many days as he was given.  You can feel sorry for yourself over what you don't have or use every bit of what you do have to make the best of life.  No part of life is easy, nor was it ever intended to be.  Only we seem to hold such beliefs.  Any wild animal will fight for life even after it's apparent that it's about to slip away.  Some part of the answer to this problem is most definitely about having the proper attitude.  I've seen no evidence that any of us are going to a different place at the end of our lives, but what we do while we still have life within us will affect generations to come.  That is the proper way to think about the time we do have.

Offline

#224 2019-07-30 10:11:08

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,069

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

This is to contribute to SpaceNut's topic...

However, I do want to note kbd512 #223, which contains several interesting thoughts.

Today's local news included a report about a wealthy sports figure who decided to see if he could make a dent in the poverty problem in his home town.

This gent set up a foundation which has contributed about $1,000,000 per year for a couple of years so far.  The funds are being used to start a school with class size of no more than 20 students, and teachers and staff learning as they go to meet the needs of the students.  This year the school has added 5th grade, after working through 2nd and 3rd grades.  Obviously this is a long term project, but I'm guessing a lot of folks will be studying it carefully.

To the specific question originally posed by SpaceNut, I think this undertaking illustrates the idea of tackling poverty by trying to remove it as a factor in the education of children in a public setting.

It would take a lot of sports figures like this to address the needs of the global population.

(th)

Offline

#225 2019-07-30 19:11:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,173

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Its always good to see the rich give back to there roots of where they grew up in making a difference for those that follow by example as leaders of there community.

I remember the education system that targeted the poor as not being fit to raise there family and at every corner they would report the family to DCYF making it that much harder to raise there children all because they were poor.

If we can educate in the want and desire to work into each person why has that not worked already....sure its going to help some if the jobs that one can get without moving will use the higher level obtained but as before these school lack the ability to teach creative thinking as in to create jobs.

Was doing some training and it indicated that the government wanted to employ disabled people with adjustments for ability in the 14% of targeted groups and such. This goes with the work part but not the help as once you make a certain limit you will lose on benefits.

SELF-IDENTIFICATION OF DISABILITY
https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf256.pdf

Couple this with the aditude that everyone is a faker and little wonder why there is little respect for those that are disabled and not able to work but according to this list they should be working.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB