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#76 2019-05-16 20:07:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

Thanks Kbd512 for the " "Hydrino" reactor technology from Blacklight / Brilliant Light Power." content.
This seems to be about selective ionic or isotopic state element use in which you are looking to the low energy harvest from a chain reaction after input of energy happens. A form of transmutation happens as the levels of the charges change states. Its this changing of states that give you heat and energy as a result.

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#77 2019-05-29 13:23:56

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,066

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

This is for Louis and Elderflower and any other members who hail from Britain ...

I put it in Louis' Power to gas topic because there didn't seem to be any better locations ...

FluxBB gave a list of posts containing the words "British" and "Innovation" but the topic titles were far afield ...

Louis ... are you familiar with this company?  It appears to have a track record of securing contracts with some well know local companies.

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20190 … adquarters

L Marks has started more than 50 innovation programs around the world. The company has worked with brands such as BMW, Lloyd’s of London and British Airways to identify business challenges and transform them into opportunities for growth.

(th)

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#78 2019-06-12 19:00:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

Reason to not go with straight hydrogen storage as A hydrogen fueling station explosion in Norway has left fuel-cell cars nowhere to charge

Ouch as Two people were sent to the hospital after the explosion due to an airbag triggered in a car nearby under the explosion pressure....

Article indicates that cause is unknown at this time...

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#79 2019-06-12 20:53:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,472

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

I'm your pest.  Of course Europeans will be into this sort of thing.
https://www.nanowerk.com/news2/green/newsid=52919.php
Solar Panels on the Ocean > Methanol.

A bit SciFiish, but they have good intentions, and give it 50 years, if nothing better shows up.

Nuf said.

Done


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#80 2019-06-13 06:13:52

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

Not so very different from my idea of huge solar battery tankers - 500,000 tonnes...sailing into maximum insolation areas, spreading out their 30 mile long flexi-PV floating panels over the ocean, little like trawler nets, and charging up the 500,000 tonnes of batteries with solar power...then they sail back to port in places like the UK or USA and feed the power into the grid. Assuming battery development to 400Whs per Kg that would mean each one would have 200 GwH of power to deliver. In the UK enough to keep the whole grid going for about 5 hours I would estimate. So a fleet of 6 should be able to provide electricity for 3 days.


Void wrote:

I'm your pest.  Of course Europeans will be into this sort of thing.
https://www.nanowerk.com/news2/green/newsid=52919.php
Solar Panels on the Ocean > Methanol.

A bit SciFiish, but they have good intentions, and give it 50 years, if nothing better shows up.

Nuf said.

Done


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#81 2019-06-14 20:28:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

Flow battery post was in the other topic...
As for disimular metal thermatic power the cold and warmth will not stay for long so what little power while its going to depend on the number of junctions will not be all that much for the energy that must go in first. The other part of the issue is line length loss which disapates the energy being made before we can get to use it.
The reason for not using methane is the carbon output from burning it and the fuel cells still are getting stuffed up in carbon soot...

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#82 2019-06-14 20:55:25

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,066

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

For SpaceNut ... re #88 regarding the duration of a heat difference.

If you have not had a chance to read (or glance at) the link provided by kbd512 in #86, that would explain your objection that the heat difference would not last long.

As I understand the article, the heat difference will last as long as your supply of LNG lasts, and as long as the ocean lasts, whichever expires first.

From hints I picked up in a rapid scan of the article, I get the impression the authors are (or were) planning to show how a tank of LNG that is intended for use as fuel in a large ocean going ship will have two kinds of energy available to the ship's engineering department.

The first and obvious energy is that which will become available after the LNG is heated up by exposure to sea water, so it can be burned in an engine designed for it.  The second and NOT so obvious energy (for which they have a special name which I have already forgotten).  That energy is the energy invested in cooling the LNG, which can (as I interpret the paper) be recovered by using the ocean as a heat source, and using the LNG as a heat sink.

The number of termocouples needed to deliver power for an ocean going ship would be significant, which is why in my post I entertained doubt that the power delivered would justify the expense.  However, in the absence of having any idea whatsoever what the cost might be, we are free to speculate that the authors have a useful idea worth exploring.

The same system (of recovering the energy invested in cooling LNG) would (presumably) work for a land based terminal, where (I gather) all LNG is currently delivered today.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-06-15 07:03:52)

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#83 2019-06-15 20:21:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

tahanson43206, post 89 you are correct that I had not looked at the reference in kbd512 but was looking at just the concept of ocean water in contact to a thermal node of dissimular metals with the next junction being exposed to the liquid cold of LNG.

I have looked at the document and its not quite that in the LNG is heated in a chamber to expand with its working pressure to make a turbine generator turn for power with the ocean water being used as a cooling of the heated low pressure side of the turbine being recondense before being represurized for use once more.

First power loss is the pumping of sea water to the chamber to cause expansion of the cold gas to create an increase of pressure for the turbine to turn in order to generate power. The ouput side is existing to a low pressure expansion tank where its cooled and represurised by more pumps for the sea water cooler and for the compressor.

What this does not account for is increased boiloff losses of the liquified gas, heat losses of the incoming water, generator dropping in power as it wears, storage losses for the power ect....

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#84 2019-06-16 06:49:28

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,066

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

For SpaceNut re post 93

Thanks for following up on the paper ...

A point that seems to be missed here is that at the present time, ALL the potential recoverable energy in LNG is LOST as waste heat to the ocean.

On top of that, there must be additional energy costs to bring the LNG into radiators where the ocean heat can be exposed to the liquid, to return it to gas.

The paper authors are merely pointing out that SOME of that total loss is recoverable.

Accordingly, while is may be worth while to note that some of the wasted energy is NOT recovered, the question is whether enough energy is recovered to justify the expense of the energy recovery method.

As you point out, the authors have suggested mechanical recovery, and I have suggested thermoelectric recovery. 

Hopefully someone will explore the original idea, to see if recovery of some of that lost energy can be justified.

As kbd512 has pointed out repeatedly, that is a LOT of energy that is lost.

(th)

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#85 2019-06-16 08:41:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

The radiator term for what is happening is called a heat exchanger which serves a simular function of LNG warming and for its recovery recooling. When a volume of gas is released its cold in the chamber and when heat is add to that chamber its going to expand the internal pressure which then is used to turn the turbine. After going through the turbine its at low pressure once more and can be cooled for recompression which means heat must be removed to make it under pressure become liquid once more.

We are playing with the triple point.

Basic Properties of LNG
http://www.kosancrisplant.com/media/564 … nal_hq.pdf
Nice liquid boiling point on page 3

Gas liquefaction process
http://folk.ntnu.no/cadorao/courses/TEP … 202008.pdf

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/trip … _1926.html

Thermoelectric recovery would be a pellitier effect cooler...Thermoelectric cooling uses the Peltier effect to create a heat flux between the junction of two different types of materials. A Peltier cooler, heater, or thermoelectric heat pump is a solid-state active heat pump which transfers heat from one side of the device to the other, with consumption of electrical energy, depending on the direction of the current.

highp.jpg A Peltier – Thermoelectric Cooler Modules

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#86 2019-06-16 11:02:56

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,066

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

For those who might be interested in the discussion, here are a couple of excerpts from the paper which kbd512 brought to the attention of the forum.

What I found interesting in a second reading, is the loss at the point of liquefaction, compared to what the authors are calling “cold energy”.

For reference:

Heat values of various fuels - World Nuclear Association
www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/...and.../heat-values-of-various-fuels.aspx
    1.
Also referred to as energy or calorific value, heat value is a measure of a fuel's energy ... Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), 46-51 MJ/kg. Natural gas, 42-55 MJ/kg.

Assuming that I am interpreting the symbols M (above) and k (below) correctly, I conclude that (about) 3 Megajoules of energy are consumed in liquefaction of natural gas, of which less than one Megajoule is carried as “cold energy”.  Of that, the authors appear to show that less than .2 Megajoules are accessible at the point of delivery of the LNG on shore.

This comparison (if correct) would appear (to me at least) to indicate that recovery of such a small part of the energy being shipped is more trouble than it would be worth, or it would have been done by cost conscious shippers already.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 … 012012/pdf


Journal of Physics: Conference Series OPEN ACCESS Thermodynamic and heat transfer analysis of LNG energy recovery for power production To cite this article: A Franco and C Casarosa 2014 J. Phys.: Conf. Ser. 547 012012

Considering that, and according to the advanced liquefaction processes about 2900 kJ/kg are consumed in the liquefaction process, the larger amount, about 2070 kJ/kg is dissipated as heat, but the remaining, estimating in the order of magnitude of 830 kJ/kg, called “cold energy” are stored in the LNG.

5. Conclusions In the present paper the problem of energy production for LNG cold energy has been analyzed with the specific aim to evaluate the perspectives of simple direct expansion configurations. After a preliminary analysis of the various conventional options, a specific three pressure level configuration has been analyzed and tested. Considering an upper limit for the higher pressure (150 bar) and a boundary condition imposed by the pipeline at 80 bar, a potential of power production of about 120 kJ/kg have been estimated:

Edit: This discussion involves shipment of LNG via ocean transport.  Wikipedia has a substantial article on the subject, including comparison of three ways of dealing with boil-off of LNG during a voyage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier

The boil-off problem helps to explain why LNG shippers are willing to pay $1,000,000 (or so) to transit the Panama Canal.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-06-16 12:33:38)

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#87 2019-06-16 15:19:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

The cold energy as such is simular to all heat pump systems in that a difference of something warm versus the cold is used to make heat or in this case electricity.
The heat pump units use energy to be able to output heat for use instead.

Researchers introduce novel heat transport theory in quest for efficient thermoelectrics

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#88 2019-06-16 20:01:50

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,066

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

For SpaceNut re #97 ...

Thanks for the link to the report of a new theory which combines quantum and wave heat transfer.

I had NO idea that Einstein had worked on refrigeration, or had a patent on an non-mechanical design.

This is a very appropriate addition to the topic Louis started 97 messages ago.

(th)

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#89 2019-06-17 17:59:45

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

We have a lurker reading our topics it would seem as US State Dept issues strategy to diversify clean energy, storage supply chains

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#90 2019-06-25 19:25:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

louis wrote:

Not so very different from my idea of huge solar battery tankers - 500,000 tonnes...sailing into maximum insolation areas, spreading out their 30 mile long flexi-PV floating panels over the ocean, little like trawler nets, and charging up the 500,000 tonnes of batteries with solar power...then they sail back to port in places like the UK or USA and feed the power into the grid. Assuming battery development to 400Whs per Kg that would mean each one would have 200 GwH of power to deliver. In the UK enough to keep the whole grid going for about 5 hours I would estimate. So a fleet of 6 should be able to provide electricity for 3 days.


Void wrote:

I'm your pest.  Of course Europeans will be into this sort of thing.
https://www.nanowerk.com/news2/green/newsid=52919.php
Solar Panels on the Ocean > Methanol.

A bit SciFiish, but they have good intentions, and give it 50 years, if nothing better shows up.

Nuf said.

Done

I knew that I remembered this

How floating solar farms could make fuel and help solve the climate crisis

"Solar methanol islands” could curb our reliance on fossil fuels that belch harmful greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

190620-frode-solar-methanol-island-picture-ac-501p_17712bc91cdec55a498af936bd1ee138.fit-2000w.jpg

Huge solar farms floating in the ocean could be used to convert carbon dioxide in seawater into methanol, a fuel that can power airplanes, trucks and other long-haul vehicles. That’s the takeaway from provocative new research suggesting that such “solar methanol islands” could curb our reliance on fossil fuels that belch harmful greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

The floating solar farms described in the paper would consist of clusters of about 70 circular solar panel “islands” covering an area of roughly one square kilometer (0.4 square mile). Electricity produced by the panels would be used to split water molecules into hydrogen, which would then react with CO2 extracted from seawater to produce methanol.

Patterson said a single floating solar farm of the sort he envisions could produce more than 15,000 tons of methanol a year — enough to fuel a Boeing 737 airliner on more than 300 round-trip flights between New York City and Phoenix.

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#91 2019-06-25 21:09:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,472

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

Well, there is this going on also.

https://www.marinelink.com/news/floatin … and-467439

This is where I differ a bit with Peter Zeihan.  I don't think we should or will abandon N.W. Europe.  They are too useful to discard.

Our oil and their desire and need to evolve to wind and solar, will work very together in the new era, I think.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#92 2019-07-04 13:30:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,173

Re: Power to gas is the way forward for storage

tag excessenergystorage

What to do when we have generated excess energy but have no means to store it after, batteries, gasses of all types and uses, as we still may need to still use it when its solar or nuclear created.....

How about other useful liquids which can be used later such as the ones needed to make a glow stick light....off shut from business creation....

These could be bottled solution of each to squirt into a chamber with a wick or cotton batten or some other cloth strip for an obsortion to make clean up after use easy. A reuseable latern shell that does not run on battery power but can give light on demand from chemical stores.

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