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#76 2019-03-27 19:00:28

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

For a mars tunnel use we would be less in need of power or support systems as they could be connected to a supply rail for what power is required to move the vehicle from place to place.

Clear to see through plastic would be lighter than glass or seramics. Robert Dyck has talked about what types can take the environment of mars in some of the greenhouse topics but the windows to see from need to not only be low mass but be intergrated into what ever structure is used for the remaining parts of the vehicles body shell. I think we can make use of some part of an inflateable designed materials simular to what is proposed but not as thick hopefully for mars as these are lighter than a simular capability in aluminum.

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#77 2019-03-27 19:28:28

SpaceNut
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#78 2019-03-27 20:14:36

kbd512
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Re: Quadracycles

SpaceNut,

Nice find.  That stuff could also be useful for repairing composite aircraft.

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#79 2019-03-28 16:59:55

SpaceNut
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#80 2019-03-31 19:21:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

Its a motor no its a generator and depending on what why its wired its can be both.

Shrinking the mass of the motor

https://www.powerelectronics.com/sites/ … k=2m5AHvZS

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2795152/ … 20v1.9.pdf

Axial Flux Permanent Magnet Generator

pg 5 is also being referred to as a pancake motor as well in that it is possible to make it work as such.

http://www.next.gr/tutorials/pma-pmg.php

Something to remember is we can build multiples on the same shaft to boost the output power from the same rotation.

https://makezine.com/2005/08/24/how-to- … permanent/

This one is turning rotational to linear motion
http://eecs.oregonstate.edu/wesrf/proje … xample.pdf

A Five Phase Axial Flux Permanent Magnet Generator for Wind Turbine Application

AXIAL-FLUX PERMANENT-MAGNET MOTOR DESIGN FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE DIRECT DRIVE USING SIZING EQUATION AND FINITE ELEMENT ANALYSIS

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#81 2019-04-03 19:06:39

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

kbd512 wrote:

If all you're trying to do is move 10kg a single kilometer, then the easiest way to do that will be a small rover with a CO2 rotary engine.  That negates the need for any fantastic power-to-weight requirements.  We already have air powered motorcycles that can take riders 10's of kilometers over rough terrain on a single charge of a SCBA tank.  By way of comparison, this little vehicle would be rather small and light.  There's obviously terrain to navigate around on the ground, but that's still a heck of a lot easier than managing vertical takeoffs and landings and fantastically more efficient in terms of compressed CO2 expended per kilometer travelled in most cases.  If that's not enough of a challenge, then a lighter than CO2 vehicle with a CO2 powered motor could deliver the payload without navigating around terrain.

The dynamic pressure of the wind is so low that significant power would not be required for a balloon to cover that kind of distance.  The atmosphere of Mars is so thin that any type of winged aircraft would have to be more harrier than normal airplane.  Still doable?  Sure, but at what cost?  The entire idea is to deliver a small payload (emergency consumables / medical supplies / small replacement parts, perhaps) to someone who needs it.

Maybe you should try all three (ground rover, balloon, harrier) just to determine what the energy requirements for each happen to be and general utility / use cases.  I'm guessing that the balloon would be lowest, followed by a ground rover, and the harrier would likely consume the most energy.  There would be other trade-offs, though.  The balloon might only work at low to moderate speed and above ground, obviously.  The rover could enter caves or habitat modules, unlike the other two, but would have difficulty in rough terrain.  The harrier would probably be the fastest, out of necessity.  It might rocket up into the atmosphere, follow a ballistic trajectory to the target, drop the payload by parachute or soft land it with a last second hover maneuver to reduce vertical descent speeds, and then rocket back to base and touch down there.

Anyway, just some different ideas to play with.  Like I said, there are significant trade-offs associated with all 3 methods.


It would seem that a tank for co-use to create power and for possible oxygen for the design would be a valid way forward for what is a hybird for mars....

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#82 2019-04-07 08:41:32

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

This will apply to the means to make it work..
https://bhushandarekar.com/wp-content/u … -13-56.pdf
Cold Gas Propulsion System for Hyperloop Pod

So we now have a gas powered generator from the expansion of mars atmosphere and a secondary in solar and pedal power eneration for a single person transport.

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#83 2019-04-09 17:19:44

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Mr. Google is wonderful when you put in the correct key words for the order of entry which was hybrid, solar, pedal power vehicles and came across this
https://ibikes.wordpress.com/2015/06/02 … r-designs/

at the top of the page is the bubble globe appearing vehicle shell but nearer to the bottom I found what kdb512 had favored for a design so as to be able to stand upright in

organic_transit_trickit.jpg?w=768

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#84 2019-04-10 03:22:30

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,096

Re: Quadracycles

So a Tuk-Tuk for Mars. I think I would give it 4 wheels for better stability.

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#85 2019-04-11 17:23:09

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Thanks you elderflower as I have learned a new term "Tuk-Tuk" as it is a modified motor cycle cart which is a the mordern day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_rickshaw

Many nice images from all over the world.
many more images on the search

It  was the template for the meter maid vehicle of the last century as well.

Its used in other crowded places as low cost uber transportation it would seem.

Alternative designs for a micro home and for Mars I would agree should be 4 wheeled.

Here is a solar powered version which when created as a hybrid vehicle for mars is fantastic.
solartuktuksideview.jpg

Originally Manufactured: Bangkok, Thailand
Capacity: 1 Driver + 4 Passengers
Speed: 50 km/hour
Weight: 900 kg
Length: 3.98 m
Motor: 7 kW
Range: approximately 300 km per charge

http://www.solartuk.org/

It is hard to tell how much solar is on the machine but hopefully we can find the information or come up with a good guestimate.

Found one image that has 8 panels but unsure of what power capability they would have but its on the website one would hope.
http://www.c-fee.com/solartuktuk.html

going to need an to english translation of the spec on the page

gallery-solartuktuk1.jpg

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#86 2019-04-19 18:07:27

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

You never know what you will find when searching for something else and in this case its about Design and construction of a solar powered vehicle

many built with wood vehicles and toys
http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/EV3/index.php

Something that could make a base vehicle to modify would be one of the Vantage mini electric vehicles which come in 3 formats to which use the stock base line and optional parts to make it a verisitle vehicle for pedal, solar battery hybrid design to start with for a single passenger to make use of.

The maker does manufacture this vehicle in gas engine as well as the electric but we would only use the electric as a starting point for the purpose of design.

163_news090114_04z%2Bvantage_nev_greenvan_evp1000%2Bdriver_side_view.jpg

Vantage-Vehicle-InternationalGreenTruckGreenTruck-Crew-Cab-EVR10002015.jpg?maxwidth=300&maxheight=300&maxwidth=300&maxheight=300

vantage-vehicles-international-2010-green-truck-electric-vehicle-with-dump-bed.jpg

These have battery and other performance information for the design
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files … VX1000.pdf
https://cleanvehiclesny.com/wp-content/ … ochure.pdf

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#87 2019-04-21 08:51:47

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Simular concept from the long range rover topic

Long%20Range%20Rover%20Top%20and%20Side%20Views.jpg.html

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#88 2019-05-09 17:23:28

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Located another motor generator page that suggests setting up the magnets in a different manner to allow them to stay cooler under operation.

https://newatlas.com/equipmake-electric … iew/54694/


https://res.mdpi.com/machines/machines- … tachment=1

http://www.gela.at/web/files/HoJo-Perma … erator.pdf

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#89 2019-05-10 16:47:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Brushless DC electric motor (BLDC motors, BL motors) also known as electronically commutated motors (ECMs, EC motors) are synchronous motors that are powered by a DC electric source via an integrated inverter/switching power supply, which produces an AC electric signal to drive the motor. In this context, AC, alternating current, does not imply a sinusoidal waveform, but rather a bi-directional current with no restriction on waveform. Additional sensors and electronics control the inverter output amplitude and waveform (and therefore percent of DC bus usage/efficiency) and frequency (i.e. rotor speed).

Brushless motors can be constructed in several different physical configurations: In the 'conventional' (also known as inrunner) configuration, the permanent magnets are part of the rotor. Three stator windings surround the rotor. In the outrunner (or external-rotor) configuration, the radial-relationship between the coils and magnets is reversed; the stator coils form the center (core) of the motor, while the permanent magnets spin within an overhanging rotor which surrounds the core. The flat or axial flux type, used where there are space or shape limitations, uses stator and rotor plates, mounted face to face. Outrunners typically have more poles, set up in triplets to maintain the three groups of windings, and have a higher torque at low RPMs. In all brushless motors, the coils are stationary.

inrunner_outrunner.png

The magnets in color will vary in count as a result of the number of coils and the type of wiring of them which is used. The is true even when using it as a generator as well.

For a 3 phase motor design this would be a typical wiring with multiple coils making up the phase wiring. Notice how they are put on in directions that will allow for the coils to sum for the phase winding.

winding_dLRK.png

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#90 2019-05-18 10:36:57

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

So what is the energy capacity that we would need for use on Mars?
Is there a way to leverage from how we use and RV?

While the articles content is for the reapir of the rv its basic content of power still holds true.
RV Electricity: How much generator do I need?

Thats sort of a good quest even for this topic.

The on-board is a 5,000-watt Kohler. The rig has a 50-amp system. I know that Mike and others recommend inverter generators because they are quieter. Besides the cost, the largest I can find is around 3,000 watt. Can I get away with that capacity or should I just go for a 5-Kw open frame (contractor) generator to make sure I have enough power?

This is sort of where we are with this project as well in the capacity of batteries and how many watts we need to have on hand. Yes earth is not mars but the support of vehicle movement and internal use would be.

If this was a 5,000-watt generator, then it was likely capable of providing around 42 amperes of total current at 120 volts (5,000 watts / 120 volts = 41.6 amperes). Doesn’t really matter if this is a single pole or 2-pole or even split-phase output. Watts is watts.
your existing 5,000-watt generator was able to power everything you need in boondocking mode, then you’ve already made a lot of power sacrifices compared to the 50+50 amperes of current available on a standard 50-amp, 120/240-volt shore power pedestal. As I’ve written recently, that’s actually 12,000 watts of power since each 50-amp leg can supply 6,000 watts.

To get the most out of the source batteries we would use 2 banks with the 6000 watt of capability at a minimum which would be for general power use for the day.

Of course the capacity is still not calculated and how its getting charged is another as this is the period of time in hrs we need to be able to supply this level of power.

posting battery link materials but we know that there are others
http://www.mining.com/web/manganese-the … advantage/

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#91 2019-05-22 20:40:27

SpaceNut
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#92 2019-06-05 20:58:59

SpaceNut
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#93 2019-06-08 16:27:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

In time things willl wear out and batteries are on that list. So what will we do Here’s How to Recycle Batteries — Because Honestly, We’re All Wondering Can You Throw Away Batteries?

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#94 2019-06-27 07:52:02

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Some good data in the article..
Dutch company develops partly solar powered car

The Lightyear One is a car with solar panels stretching across its roof to charge the electric vehicle's batteries.

The car, created by Dutch startup Lightyear, has a charging port to plug into a charger.

But the solar panels can charge the Lightyear One's batteries at a rate of about 7.5 miles of charge every hour.

That's slow compared to plugging it in. Still, if you parked it outside your office on a sunny day, it could soak up enough power to drive 60 miles, which is more than most people drive on a typical day.On a long drive, help from the sun could add as much as 50 miles to a fully charged battery.

The car's five square meters of solar panels are very efficient at converting sunlight to energy,

With its low, sloping shape and covered rear wheels, the car is designed to be extraordinarily aerodynamic. Each wheel is powered by its own electric motor. Placing the motors as close as possible to the wheels increases efficiency and, since the motors act as generators to recapture energy during braking, four-wheel-drive electric cars are more efficient than two-wheel-drive ones.

Not sure that regen will be of much use on a Mars vehicle but on earth due to higher speed sure...

So a solar charging roof and pedal power generator would make for a daily commuter vehicle possible...

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#95 2019-06-27 20:13:02

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,832

Re: Quadracycles

car does have about 15 square feet of fairly efficient solar panels, on the hood, roof, and rear window area of the car provide 20 percent more energy than conventional solar cells.

four hub motors, one per wheel, it’ll apparently go from 0 to 62 mph in an OK 10 seconds,
https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/ … e=1024,571

“Emergency range extension,” letting you creep along at 9 to 12 mph just on the energy you get from direct sunlight.

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#96 2019-07-06 22:03:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Calculating direct drive is not how we would be using the vehicle but for ony short periods of time to which the generator can and would be designed for low rpm not the higher alternator designs which are being quoted.

Racers can produce from a few hundred watts to near 800 at a full sprint.

https://www.mne.psu.edu/simpson/courses … ecalc1.htm

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/edgerton-ce … _pedal.pdf

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#97 2019-08-06 22:08:43

SpaceNut
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Re: Quadracycles

Link being posted not for product but for article content about solar
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/08/2020- … -each-day/

charge 30 to 60 percent of the battery per day and six hours of daily charging will increase travel distance by an extra 1,300 km (808 miles) annually.
The gasoline engine develops 150 HP and 188 Nm (139 lb-ft) of torque, with the electric motor adding another 51 HP and 205 Nm (151 lb-ft).

2d82a647-2020-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-4-768x512.jpg


Something wrong with the panels or very bad design...

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#98 2019-08-08 18:36:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Quadracycles

Estimate surface area of the roof seems to be 1.5 to 2 sq meters so these must be very poor efficiency panels.

energy for use from pedalling can come in compressed air on earth but not sure that a thin atmosphere would be of much benefit other than for capture of it for other uses.

Pedal Operated Air Compressor
https://www.ijsr.net/archive/v4i1/SUB15258.pdf

the inefficiency is evident in this article
https://newatlas.com/pedal-power-off-grid-power/29817/

pedal_power_kickstarter.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&crop=entropy&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&w=616&s=b33344cef25717cc2fc344b16f0dc455

notice the car alternator...it requires 1,000 to 2000 rpm to achieve the rated out put of 12v at about 50 amps.
the average person can pedal no where near that sped so we will need to use pulley diameters to change the spin ratio in order to get what we put in up to the level required for the alternator to ouput full power.
Of course this setup usually only yields 300 watts at best.

What is needed in a generator design is low rpm to get the most out of being a pedal powered device.

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#99 2019-08-29 18:44:35

SpaceNut
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