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#1 2018-09-02 17:51:26

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

This topic should have been started along time ago....

It seems like this go put on the back burner:

kbd512 wrote:

In my opinion, NASA and JPL should proceed with the MARCO POLO project to test the ability to extract water from regolith for LOX/LCH4.  If this is the lynch pin technology that makes surface exploration affordable, then this is what the next lander should test.  It's an engineering technology demonstrator mission, rather than a science experiment, but also includes one science experiment to try to find life in the ground.

"Marco Polo" hum...do you mean key items not fully developed for a mars use... if so agreed.. we will know once moxie is sent for oxygen creation soon, the next as you indicate is getting water and or hydrogen to make fuel would be the next from insitu sources of materials and we do need a final answer on going solar only, going with nuclear only or going with a mix of solar and nuclear to allow for a backup for the energy needs....

kbd512 wrote:

MARCO POLO is a NASA ISPP experiment to produce LOX/LCH4 using Martian regolith and atmosphere.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/workshops/isru/ … anders.pdf
Mars ISRU: State-of-the-Art and System Level Considerations

MOXIE is just a SOXE and O2 liquefaction experiment.  MARCO POLO is a complete ISPP plant.

Marco polo is just what it will be to get steady amounts from the unknown level of power to heat for the unknown water content from each shovel full loaded into the apparatus. The design is geared for the shaleton crater on the moon and may need modifications for mars as the moon was looking to use the ferensal lense solar for the heating of the soil in a chamber

https://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2011 … -06-16.pdf

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 023504.pdf

https://wordlesstech.com/marco-polo-mars-pathfinder/


After seeing the Mars society poster on the home page I got thinking about landing on mars again.
Section 10. Mars Ascent Vehicle

MAV-ISPP-schematic.png

MARCO POLO is a robotic technology demonstration mission comprised of an octagonal lander and mobile robot, which process Martian soil and atmosphere to produce O2, H2O and CH4.

MARCO-POLO.png

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 006401.pdf
Mars Ascent Vehicle Design for Human Exploration

https://esto.nasa.gov/conferences/nstc2 … 7-0015.pdf
Pump Fed Propulsion for Mars Ascent and Other Challenging Maneuvers

www.seas.upenn.edu/~utopcu/pubs/TCM-space07.pdf
Minimum-Fuel Powered Descent for Mars Pinpoint Landing

Still wondering if this is still happening or are they testing another manner....for Nasa....

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#2 2019-01-13 14:26:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

Bump, time to put all of the topic links into this so as to have a common point to link back too and wondering when Nasa is going to start moving on this point as its required for the ability for man to stay in order to explore.

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#4 2019-01-13 15:38:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

Well, since you are home stranded, I presume, here is some material which might entertain you.
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-steam-pro … plore.html
Quote:

Steam-propelled spacecraft prototype can theoretically explore celestial objects "forever"

Does not appear that the craft could take off from Mars, but the techniques might be useful on Mars.
The company mentioned:
https://www.honeybeerobotics.com/
Space:
https://www.honeybeerobotics.com/servic … 0507812500
Mining, Oil, & Gas:
https://www.honeybeerobotics.com/servic … g-oil-gas/

And of course there are hints that water exists in significance near the equator of Mars, either as Ice or Hydrated Salts/Minerals.  According to this article:
https://www.space.com/38330-water-ice-m … uator.html

If SpaceX does its optimal potential, I would presume these things would be checked out within 5-10 years.

It would be very nice to locate at the most optimal place on Mars, perhaps even the equator, if the article is right.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-13 15:47:54)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#5 2019-01-13 15:49:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

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#6 2019-01-22 21:31:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

http://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1997.pdf

3484a.jpg

Engineering Mars commercial rocket propellant production for the Big Falcon Rocket (part 1)

Engineering Mars commercial rocket propellant production for the Big Falcon Rocket (part 2)

3479a.jpg



Water harvesting

ISRU review, the NASA study four-kilowatt-hour figure was used for the power estimates used by robotic water extraction/mining unit operations. Including the power needs to then load the water ore and transport this water ore feedstock adds another 25 percent to this number, for a total of five kilowatt-hours to mine 4,150 kilograms of water ore. The 7.5-kilowatt-hour examples from the NASA study were then used for power estimates of the separation and vitalization processing to produce 33 kilograms of refined pure quality water from the mined Martian water-bearing regolith ore. This gives an energy cost of extracting and processing (with an overhead factor) to produce purified water from Martian raw ore materials at an estimate of about 230 watts per kilogram.

Water Electrolysis

The water electrolysis processing is highly power intensive because of the energy of the bond strength between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The electrolysis of water requires a minimum of 237.13 kilojoules of electrical energy input to dissociate each mole of liquid water. Each mole of water gives you 2 grams of hydrogen and 16 grams of oxygen gases. Put another way, commercially available electrolysis systems require about 50 kilowatt-hours of power to produce one kilogram of hydrogen and eight kilograms of oxygen gas from nine kilograms of liquid water.


Sabatier Reaction

hydrogen is through the electrolysis of the water by-product that results from the Sabatier reactor. Unfortunately, for every 44 kilograms of carbon dioxide that is converted into 16 kilograms of methane in the Sabatier process, you need four kilograms of hydrogen. The Sabatier process only produces 36 kilograms of water in the balanced reaction. An optimized system of this design massing 50 kilograms “has been projected to produce 1 kg/day of O2:CH4 propellant… with a methane purity of 98+% while consuming 700 Watts of electrical power.”


RWGS reaction

RWGS reactor compliment to the primary Sabatier process. This RWGS reactor uses additional carbon dioxide feed stock extracted from the Martian atmosphere and hydrogen gas to produce additional water and a carbon monoxide byproduct. one kilogram of carbon dioxide and hydrogen give you 0.3 kilograms of water.

Then we have the energy needs for cooling and compression for many of the steps.

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#7 2019-10-24 17:31:22

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

bump
what was the numbers on this design...
if its 2 tonnes then maybe we can do a design along those lines of payload for all the parts that we need for a mission of just 2.

The atmosphere of Mars is the layer of gases surrounding Mars. The atmospheric pressure on the Martian surface averages 600 pascals (0.087 psi), about 0.6% of Earth's mean sea level pressure of 101.3 kilopascals (14.69 psi)...
..

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#8 2019-12-29 20:20:57

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

Looks as if nasa is trying to make a sample return mission
RASSOR, MARCO POLO Demonstrate Resource Utilization on Mars

KSC-20160929-PH_DNG01_0045-624x416.jpg

Regolith Advanced Surface Systems Operations Robot. RASSOR excavated regolith and delivered sand and gravel to a hopper and mock oven.

http://canada.marssociety.org/winnipeg/ … esting.doc

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 001808.pdf

https://sciences.ucf.edu/class/wp-conte … o-JoAE.pdf

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#9 2020-01-01 22:00:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

updating topic

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #721 and references to scroll pump ...

The link you provided to the NASA site came up with a powerpoint dated 2017, with a number of references to work by Dr. Zubrin and associates.

The technology of a "scroll pump" is new to me.  Someone might be interested in the page at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

In the NASA powerpoint, only two stages of compression are shown, moving from Mars atmosphere to input to the Sabatier reaction.

(th)

RobertDyck wrote:

NASA SBIR - 1998 (abstract only): Mars Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Freezer

NASA Technical Report Server (NTRS) - 2012: Mars In Situ Resource Utilization Technology Evaluation

We have examined the technologies required to enable Mars In-Situ Resource Utilization
(ISRU) because our understanding of Mars resources has changed significantly in the last
five years as a result of recent robotic missions to the red planet. Two major developments,
(1) confirmation of the presence of near-surface water in the form of ice in very large
amounts at high latitudes by the Phoenix Lander and (2) the likely existence of water at
lower latitudes in the form of hydrates or ice in the top one meter of the regolith, have the
potential to change ISRU technology selection. A brief technology assessment was performed
for the most promising Mars atmospheric gas processing techniques: Reverse Water Gas
Shift (RWGS) and Methanation (aka Sabatier), as well as an overview of soil processing
technology to extract water from Martian soil.

NASA NTRS - 2011: Evaluation of Mars CO2 Capture and Gas Separation Technologies

NASA NTRS - 2017 (slides): The Technology and Future of In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU)

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#10 2020-01-11 12:19:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

Getting water so far is excavating regolith as we search for it underground. The concentration is a cup for a meter any where from an inch to several feet below the surface.
As part of the process designs are maturing so as to be able to get the water at the lowest energy cost possible.
Part of the system for processing the water and co2 is getting that water.
Pioneering Space Requires Living Off the Land in the Solar System

ksc-20160929-ph_dng01_0028.jpg

RASSOR 2.0, the Regolith Advanced Surface Systems Operations Robot. RASSOR excavated regolith and delivered sand and gravel to a hopper and mock oven.

Making about two pounds of fuel on Mars saves about 500 pounds launching it from Earth to get it to the Red Planet.

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasas-explo … f-the-land

http://www.marspapers.org/paper/Muscate … 3_pres.pdf
Atmospheric Processing Module for Mars Propellant Production


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f060/2 … 13167b.pdf
Prototype Development of an Integrated Mars Atmosphere & Soil Processing System

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#11 2020-01-11 15:28:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,748

Re: MARCO POLO/Mars Pathfinder

The insitu lander portion of the processing is simular to
pia19664-MAIN_InSight_Solar_Arrays_Open_4-30-15_001.0.0.jpg

It would have 4 panels to make it 40kw capable with the landing deck and legs to start with for a base design with the engines and fuel tanks.

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