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#51 2018-06-19 21:19:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

Tonight I am thinking space hotels.

Mr. Bigelo wants to work with ULA I think.  Is that a special purpose that Vulcan can fulfill?  Looks like Vulcan will not be operational in the time line they want to put a station in orbit, so probably not.

Aurora?
https://www.space.com/40207-space-hotel … ation.html

Of course these ideas lean heavily but not entirely on "Space Tourism".

The odd part is they indicate the early 20's for activity.

To me this indicates further potential markets for SpaceX, Blue Origins, and Others.

The part I like is that this stuff may eventually evolve into synthetic gravity hotels in LEO, inside the Van Allen Belts.

......

I suppose I could quite while I am ahead, but it is debatable if I am a head, so I will allow angels to dance on my Pin Head smile  (No malice GW).

At the same time I like Dr. Zubrins plan for a Moon base, but have a bit of an attraction to the Lunar gateway.

What I see, is that it is a generalist experiment.  It is in a way stupid, but making it work will allow several problems to be worked on.

For instance, Telepresence and Latency on the Moon.  Although the gateway is not necessary for it.  I see an opportunity to have telepresence operators on the surface of the Earth send generalized instructions to an AI on the gateway.  That AI would then translate the general instructions into choreographed more complete instructions to be given to machines on the surface of the Moon.  The latency from the AI to the surface of the Moon would be relatively small, so it could be relatively reflexive/reactive to nearly real time action.

Another thing is that the gateway could test magnetic radiation protection, and of course mass methods as well.  I could list more, but the idea would be to learn to swim in the harsh space environment around the Moon, which would be quite similar to that when transiting Earth/Moon<>Mars.

But that is just me.

As I see it, NASA and OLD Space should stick to General Sciences and other such activities, and sponsored business entities should be encouraged to develop specialized skills that can be useful to the whole picture.

I am very enthusiastic seeing what the various entities are doing, and putting the puzzle together, I think the buzz word Synergy could apply.  Actually.

Done.

Do you recant!

No not yet smile

Last edited by Void (2018-06-19 21:40:16)


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#52 2018-06-20 12:20:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I am going to mention two other trial items for the 2020's along with the space hotels of the previous post.

Spin Launch:
https://www.space.com/40910-stealth-sta … ethod.html

Star Tram:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarTram

So, these are both mass drivers to be used on the surface of the Earth which is interesting.

It looks like a Cambrian age of spaceflight is about to be on us in the 2020's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian

And if we live we will see various methods evolve, work or fail.

Last edited by Void (2018-06-20 12:27:39)


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#53 2018-06-21 21:39:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I am going to make a post perhaps tomorrow, low on time now.

The purpose is to demonstrate that indeed the high volcano's on Mars have a history of being above the dust storms.  That and the possibility of a deep honeycomb of lava tubes, and possibility of minerals, and just, just possibly geothermal heat, makes them a good secondary target for settlement I believe.

My feelings are that in fact granted water, these locations may be the best for settlements.  I will make my arguments later.

This material will also be hosted:
(See the previous post #52 Yesterday 13:20:52)

If needed the circular catapult could send ice from a lowland deposit to the slopes or caldera of these volcano's.
The other item, the linear launcher might be a really great way to make the planet Mars a mass exporter.  If these could work on Earth, how much better on Mars?

Last edited by Void (2018-06-21 21:41:42)


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#54 2018-06-22 10:11:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

This post about Martian Volcano's poking up out of even the worst dust storms has background materials from my posts on this thread #52 & #53.

http://earthsky.org/space/mars-giant-du … pportunity

Since 2007, Mars scientists have been patiently waiting for a planet-encircling dust event – less precisely called a “global” dust storm, though the storms never truly cover the entire globe of Mars. In 1971, one of these storms came close, leaving just the peaks of Mars’ Tharsis volcanoes poking out above the dust.
The most recent dust storm is the earliest ever observed in the northern hemisphere of Mars, said Bruce Cantor of Malin Space Science Systems, deputy principal investigator for the Mars Color Imager. But it could take several more days before anyone can tell whether the storm is encircling the planet.
If it does “go global,” the storm will offer a brand new look at Martian weather. Four [NASA] spacecraft stand ready to collect the science that shakes out.

So, while solar is good for the icy flatter lowlands, if you really want a solar powered economy on Mars, I feel that the Tharsis Volcano's are the real deal.

Investigating a possible honeycomb of deep buried lava tubes is a possible resource to look for.



Not Done

Last edited by Void (2018-06-22 10:16:41)


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#55 2018-06-30 14:42:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I am going to discuss ice mining + a lot more on my own terms here, to the degree that I am allowed.

This post follows from:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8292
Frankly I find that I am unable to introduce novel ideas in the main topics as typically most people want to recite from an existing recipe to solve a problem.  That can be OK also, if it works, but the two, inventiveness and rigidness are rather incompatible.

So, to start, I want to list some of the major assets thought to be available on Mars:
1)Tharsis Volcano's & Olympus Mons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharsis_Montes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
The value of these assets is that they have been observed to rise above major dust storms observed so far, I believe.
They very likely have a very large network of lava tubes which may have some value if humans develop to proper technology to adapt to them.
Water resources are not well known.  It is possible that some rocky glaciers with some ice may exist, and may be hard to access.  The lava tubes may have ice in them.  Another possibility is that at certain times, super cooled water vapor may exist at some level on these mountain slopes, but that is pure speculation at this point.

For purposes of inhabiting these preferred solar power domains, it may be necessary to transport water from another lower location.  However that is not preferred.

2)Atmosphere:
The atmosphere appears everywhere on the surface at different but low pressures, and of about the same mix.  CO2, Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen, Carbon Monoxide, Others.   Approximately in that order of significance.

For the moment I will deal with CO2, CO, and what can be done with them, mostly in association with Water and Hydrogen.

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction is the process most favored on this site, but I am very much thinking that it is not the one to prefer.

Rather than reacting Hydrogen which you got from water with atmospheric CO2, I think that extracting CO from the CO2 of the atmosphere is a preferred first step, and then you can react the CO with water or Hydrogen depending on what is convenient to your needs.

This is one type of reaction that is in that area of thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-gas_shift_reaction

But is fairly obvious that if you did this then you might have Hydrogen to do the Sabatier Reaction with as well.

I am rather out of my league here so I will indeed stick with what other more capable entities are working on.  I realize that many here are quite up on this stuff.  Still I will review what is currently set to be experimented on.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-carbon-di … and-oxygenhttps://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/ … nts/moxie/

And then I will state that I would much more even than that like to see a method developed (Eventually), where at the ambient pressures of Mars, and with a Catalyst and concentrated solar heat CO and O2 could be generated.

I am certainly happy to hope that Moxie works first however.

If you have a reliable source of Oxygen and Carbon Monoxide on Mars, then you can do much more than just make Oxygen to breath, and make propellants, you can do Chemosynthesis, which is in the class of things the members here will never talk about, they shun it as if it could not ever exist, or be considered.

But, so what.  They can shun away, here I am.

*Note: It is worth noting that Mars itself does it's own Photolysis like Moxie, to the CO2 in the atmosphere, it is obtainable at an unknown cost, if you can figure out how to make a mechanical "Gill" which would extract O2 and CO from the Martian atmosphere.  They exist in small quantities, dissolved into the atmospheric mix of Mars.

I have suggested a centrifuge with Magnetic and Electrostatic characteristics to try to extract the Oxygen.  Hemoglobin of course attracts Oxygen and much more strongly Carbon Monoxide.  But of course it is a wet process which is inconvenient on Mars, and also you need a method to pluck the Carbon Monoxide off of the Hemoglobin.  Reverse Osmosis is another idea to chase.  Liquification and centrifuging was considered on this site by one member.

One possibility is to simply compress Martian atmosphere until the CO2 becomes liquid, and then hope that the O2 and CO are not significantly dissolved into that liquid, but I don't know the truth on that.  Probably you don't get what you want from that.  Perhaps you might decompress the Liquid CO2, and then flash much of the CO2 into Dry Ice.  Then the resulting gas would be enriched with other gasses and reduced of CO2.  But some of the other gasses may be in the Dry Ice.  You could then try degassing the dry ice, but if the other gasses are entrained into the Dry Ice you might not do so well at that.

And then there is cost.  You have to get the atmospheric gasses you want at a financial benefit, or you have wasted your time.

Anyway, presuming "Moxie" or something like Moxie works, you can then do Chemosynthesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis
Examples:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … -monoxide/
https://www.astrobio.net/extreme-life/c … tmosphere/
An important word: "carboxydotrophs".
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 131742.htm
(To make Ethanol).

Good enough, most likely can do all sorts of things starting with Carbon Monoxide, and Water/Oxygen.

One of them is you want to make some Hydrocarbons and yet have Oxygen left over for the humans.  If you use only Oxygen as your Oxygen source in the processes, then you zero out where you just create CO2 again.  But if you use some Microbes that use Carbon Monoxide and H20 in their process then you can have Oxygen left over for the humans.

But enough of that.

A third major asset on Mars are the ice deposits, on and around the poles, and at lower latitudes, perhaps even in smaller amounts even down to the equator.
3)  Ice fields.  In this section,
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8292
, I did already start on this, but there were many other ideas which while not being wrong (Necessarily), are somewhat incompatible with what I was trying to project to.  So, fine we can all have our own space perhaps.

In what I tried to project, I wanted to keep the mass of the mining equipment to a minimum, and to also manufacture underground ice structure, and hope to adapt methods to make it useful.  I wanted to avoid the creation of sink-holes which are probably useless and troublesome as well.

If we could somehow deal with a surface structure such as "Phoenix Lander" found, and if the ice deposits at the Phoenix landing site were as deep as those supposed to exist at Utopia Planetia, then I think what I suggested could be done easily.

As it is near topic, I will throw in this link:
https://www.dw.com/en/scientists-find-i … a-42119792

But that is too high latitude.  At places "Like" Utopia Planetia, heavy overburden apparently exists, and that is a problem that has to be solved for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_Planitia

OK what I suggest is that once you can reach the top of the ice layer, a laser can be your tool to consider.  This is because it can transfer heat into the bottom of a tunnel, (I hope).  By tunneling at an angle with a laser, at an angle, it is my hope that any soil content in the ice/soil mix will drop to the bottom of the tunnel, and stay out of the way of the laser beam.  This will be influenced by the angle of the tunneling.  We would not want an avalanche of materials down the tunnel either.  But if we did get one which blocked the path of the laser, we could then raise the angle of tunneling of the laser.

And let me make it certain that I am not thinking of a star wars mega laser, just a beam point that can vaporize water, at 5.5 mb or less of air pressure, which means a temperature of less than the melting point of water.

I mentioned 5.5 or less for the air pressure in the tunnel.  That is because I would like to pull a vacuum in the tunnel, and lower the sublimation point for ice in the tunnel.  This may or may not be possible.  The reason is that parts of the ice apparently have porosity, which may act like a spongy reservoir for Martian air.  (But if that is the case, there may be another fun game to play, but more about that later).  If it is possible to pull water vapor out of the ice by pumping heat in with a laser (Or something else), and pulling a Vacuum, then I need to embrace part of something Spacenut suggested as it could be quite useful.
In this reference link:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 49#p147849
Quote from Spacenut (Post #10):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still
This is the upside down tent used in the deserts to collect water from a pit.
Bringing the driest place in the world to life: 'Fog catchers' attempt to harvest moisture with huge nets in Chilean desert
http://airsolarwater.com/
Any moisture on mars that is evaporated once when it comes in contact with the tent will turn to liquid and roll down the length to a trough to collect it in. The tent could be just a dark black plastic for solar heat generation to drive the moisture condensation effect.

I did mention what can we do about a created sink hole?
But if you join the effort given by Spacenut with what is presented here, with just a little spinning of it.  We could have a surface enclosure where the water vapor sucked from the tunnel could be sent to condense.  Condensation could be due to ambient Martian cold temperatures, (Especially nighttime and winter conditions), and if the enclosure is sealed you may use pressurization to condense.

The laser and air pump(s) will need power, so perhaps solar panels mounted on the enclosure, although I do not preclude nuclear which was also mentioned by a member.

So we can then have a Solar and/or Nuclear powered still where Ice is "Boiled" (Sublimated), and cold temperatures and/or pressurization can be used to condense the vapors.  (Later a melting process could be employed in the enclosure, perhaps in the daytime).

We then will have built a structure, the tunnel rather than creating a sink hole.
We will also have scientific data as the strata of the tunnel can be examined and soil samples taken.  This will be important to scientists, and would help to promote the value of the mission.  The information would also be important as to help to understand how things may work on Mars as it is being moved through various levels of terraforming (If it is).

The angular tunnel being ~~~400-800 feet long (129.92-243.84 Meters long) would intercept the bedrock/beddirt and so, possibly lead to other things, such as useful materials, and a place to tunnel underground housing.  And from that point you could tunnel in the ice of the "Groundline" itself for whatever reason you might want to.

……

Now you may begin building a network of structures underground/under-ice.

For instance you may rotate the position of your laser to create the extractive manufactured cone structure with an ice cone inside it.  You may make many of these.  You may create a "Vault" where you modify the ceiling to be arched, and remove the ice cone inside.  At the bottom you may create a lake, bounded by the dirt/regolith.  Bounded at the sides and bottom.  If you don't want to risk pressurizing the vault, you may simply put an ice covered lake in this vault.  You may put salt in it and cause stratification.  In that stratified lake you may warm the bottom waters to room temperature.

Or, you may have a cold lake with fresh water and do chemosynthesis in it.

If you are really clever, you may pressurize a vault put well insulating tent structures in it and have gardens with artificial lights.  You have to dissipate the waste heat however.  Maybe not so hard considering how cold the Martian winters and nights are.

……

And much of Mars is covered with deposits of ice of significant thickness.

Think like an Inuit/Eskimo, but with modern science and construction materials.
……

How would the original BFR/BFS effort fit into the beginnings of this?  Well it is something to think about.  But the extent of potential is "Other Worldly".  I like that!  I think that is the whole idea isn't it?

Done.

Goodnight.

Last edited by Void (2018-06-30 16:57:38)


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#56 2018-06-30 17:39:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: General System

Not here to taredown the thoughts

Have created the landing topic for why we can not land even on the platuea range that surounds the montian tops of the highest volcanoes on mars. This is the one thing that is limited manned mars chances of making use of laval tubes. Caves or other such entrances into the mars underworld which could be teaming with life.

As for Chemosynthesis it has been detected in hydrothermal vents, isolated caves, methane clathrates, whale falls, and cold seeps here on earth. It has been hypothesized the process may permit life below the surface of Mars but that is what is being debated for the methane that is seasonal. Of course we woul need to harness the conditions to make the process better as in creating a better eco system for what is mars insitu life to do what we want it to.

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#57 2018-06-30 20:22:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I appreciated your reply.

Landing on the high rugged zones from Earth would be dangerous anyway, even if it was a thing that could be done in terms of propulsion and aeroburn.

My own feelings are that the first settlement has to be in an icy lowland.  Therefore it will have to deal with significant dust storm trouble periodically.

I think SpaceX & Other  (I don't think we really know who or how yet) would as a best plan send two ships with nuclear power plants, the Kilopower plants, and those could would with equipment on the ships to prepare consumables, without the use of insitu water.

In my previous post I explained a speculative method to extract water, but most likely in order to implement it people have to be present on the planet with mobile machinery to set it up.  They may not have to stay there, after they would have the fuel to get back to Earth, and it might be able to do a retanking with automation after that.

Still to live in the lowlands is going to require skills to survive the periodic bad conditions which will happen.

As for the uplands, I should think that once a base has been put in place in the low lands, it will eventually be possible to hop up to the "Banana Belt" in the volcanic regions.

And as for hop landing from Martian suborbit I don't see why that cannot be done, given enough fuel.  Is there a reason?

The point is if you want to go solar, those are the places to do it.  If only you can procure sufficient water resources there by some means.
While I know that some members don't like lava tubes, I feel that it should be possible to do a lot of farming in them, with chemosynthesis and artificial lighting.  I feel that only the best rated tubes would be used for habitation.



What do you have to say on this?


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#58 2018-07-01 08:30:32

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: General System

Void,

I think vertical bore holes created with small electric tunnel boring machines containing pressurized inflatables are the way to go for the near term.  Apart from free radiation protection, any lava tubes would have to be rigorously examined to determine how stable they were.  There are lots of caves here on Earth that served as temporary shelters until better shelters were built.  After better shelters were built, above or below ground, nobody used natural structures.  There may or may not be less active plate tectonics and volcanism on Mars, with respect to Earth, but engineered shelters are still the best bet for long duration survival.

It would be interesting to see if we could land BFS at the bottom of Valles Marineris to provide more radiation protection and perhaps locate a geothermal source for permanent power.

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#59 2018-07-01 21:28:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

Kbd512,

I enjoyed that you replied, I respect your opinion, I will see if we can arrive at a mutual method, or methods that can intersect with value.

Kbd512 said:

Void,
I think vertical bore holes created with small electric tunnel boring machines containing pressurized inflatables are the way to go for the near term.  Apart from free radiation protection, any lava tubes would have to be rigorously examined to determine how stable they were.  There are lots of caves here on Earth that served as temporary shelters until better shelters were built.  After better shelters were built, above or below ground, nobody used natural structures.  There may or may not be less active plate tectonics and volcanism on Mars, with respect to Earth, but engineered shelters are still the best bet for long duration survival.
It would be interesting to see if we could land BFS at the bottom of Valles Marineris to provide more radiation protection and perhaps locate a geothermal source for permanent power.

As an exhibit, I include this from the Europeans.  They do some really good work that complements North American efforts I think.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 112842.htm
Quote:

"The comparison of terrestrial, lunar and martian examples shows that, as you might expect, gravity has a big effect on the size of lava tubes. On Earth, they can be up to thirty metres across. In the lower gravity environment of Mars, we see evidence for lava tubes that are 250 metres in width. On the Moon, these tunnels could be a kilometre or more across and many hundreds of kilometres in length," says Dr Riccardo Pozzobon, of the University of Padova. "These results have important implications for habitability and human exploration of the Moon but also for the search of extraterrestrial life on Mars. Lava tubes are environments shielded from cosmic radiation and protected from micrometeorites flux, potentially providing safe habitats for future human missions. They are also, potentially, large enough for quite significant human settlements -- you could fit most of the historic city centre of Riga into a lunar lava tube."

My feeling is that the quantity of such resource demands that we seek a use for it.

One thing about these tubes is they are not subject to erosion from water, unlike on Earth.
We also believe that both the Moon and Mars are more quiet geologically, so less quakes.

Unlike Earth the shield volcano's of Mars took billions of years to build.  That may indicate that there are deeply buried tubes.  Tubes laid down ages ago, but then covered up by subsequent lava flows.  So, their ceilings not subjected to day/night temperature fluxes which may crack them over time.

Further if they have survived millions and billions of years, then we may have some reason to believe that they are stable.


As you know, I am also attracted to these shield volcano's thinking that possibly:
1) They will generally or always be above the dust storms, therefore a best place for solar energy.  Even better than orbital solar.
2) They may very well have buried mineral deposits.
3) I really think it would be hopeful to use them as a launch platform perhaps to launch Carbon or Dry Ice into orbit.
Water however will be a need that has to be solvable.

Your vertical habitats?  Sure.  But consider connecting them to the lava tubes where you might have factories and/or farming.

As for the rift valley, yes, between the volcano's and the rift valley, perhaps the most likely places to try to find geothermal of some kind.
One thing I have wondered about for the rift valley walls would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artesian_aquifer
That is, if their are salty aquifers on Mars near the Valley, then could you bore into the permafrost and open an artesian well?
Springs are unlikely due to the permafrost plugging them up, but the artesian reservoirs may be there under very intense pressure.  If you can tap one, then of course you have water, salts (To mine for metals), and yes maybe it would be warm enough for geothermal power.


That's good enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-07-01 21:46:42)


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#60 2018-07-02 03:24:28

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: General System

Void,

I don't always respond, mostly because I'm waiting for more details, but read what you write with great interest.  You have some unique ideas.

I don't take any issue with exploiting natural resources like lava tubes.  I think we'd be fools not to take whatever we can get.  I'm saying that we need to devise a method to ensure natural structures are stable and that subsequent seismic activities don't destroy them.

The primary environmental concerns I have for are Mars colony are guaranteed electrical power, a good source of water, and substantial radiation protection.  Modern indoor hydroponic and aeroponic farming methods can deliver the food required.  Modern materials and life support equipment ensure that the structures built are durable and provide habitable places for humans to live.  If possible, added bonuses like aquifers, mineral and ore deposits, and/or sources of thermal power should be incorporated into the design of a colony.

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#61 2018-07-08 16:27:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

OK, there is really no place on this board where a person can talk about potential life on Venus, Earth, and Mars, ect. and also talk about the prehistory of the three planets, ect.  So, I will do it here.

Spider Ballooning.  I want to start with this because apparently spiders can fly electrostatically, and also on the wind.  This could be important for the possible existence of life in the clouds of Venus.
I imagine you can read, so I won't do a quote.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc … rs/564437/
So, I already know that Oxygen is expelled to the upper atmosphere of Venus by electrical force, so lost to space.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … table.html

Small objects the size of bacteria in the atmosphere of Venus:
http://time.com/5224561/venus-life-atmosphere-bacteria/
Quote:

Even more compelling, argue the authors, are dark patches in Venus’s atmosphere that change shape, size and position over time, but never disappear completely. Discovered in the early part of the 20th century, the patches had long been a mystery, but modern-day analyses have shown them to be made principally of particles that closely match the size of common Earthly bacteria. What’s more, the spectra of light the Venusian particles absorb closely match the spectra absorbed by those bacteria. Mogul and lead author Sanjay Limaye, of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, compare the atmospheric blooms to algae blooms in the oceans on Earth, arguing that they could be just as biologically robust.

As far as nutrients, apparently the lower layers of the atmosphere are supercritical, and so I wonder if they could contribute dissolved substances from the surface to the cloud layers?  Dust lifted could also be a mechanism for it.  And I suppose so could the rain of objects from space make a contribution.  Any life in the clouds might hoard such chemicals however, as they might be in short supply.

I am not the first by any means:
http://solstation.com/life/ven-life.htm
Quote:

n September 2002, planetary scientists (Dirk Schulze-Makuch and Louis Irwin) made public their speculations that there may be microbial life in the high Venusian clouds (as those in Earth's clouds), based on their finding of atmospheric abnormalities uncovered in data from past Russian and U.S. space probes (Venera, Pioneer, and Magellan). Although Solar radiation and lightning (which has been detected by the ESA's Venus Express probe in 2007) should be producing large amounts of carbon monoxide (CO), the gas was found to be scarce, as if something was removing it (such as hydrogenogens, diverse bacteria and archaea that grow anaerobically utilizing CO as their sole carbon source and water as an electron acceptor to produce carbon dioxide and molecular hydrogen as waste products). The Venusian atmosphere also contains hydrogen sulphide and sulphur dioxide, although these two compounds react with each other and so are not usually found together unless they are being continually produced by anaerobic bacteria decomposing organic matter. In addition, carbonyl sulphide was also found, although it is most easily produced by organic processes.

……

But let me state my intentions.  I do not know if there is or is not life in the clouds of Venus, but knowing may help us to understand the natures of the early solar system, particularly Venus, Earth, and Mars.  Testing for life in the clouds of Venus should be much more cost effective than testing for it on Mars, because on Venus it should be ubiquitous to the clouds of Venus, and on Mars, it will almost certainly be found in deep burial in isolated pockets.  Evidence of dead life might be found on the surface of Mars however, but not I think as easily as checking the clouds of Venus.

......

So, if life does exist in the clouds of Venus, how would it be there?  Well a genesis somewhere, and possible panspermia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

I won't bother to guess where it might have started.  I will say that if there is survivor life in the clouds of Venus, then it evolved most likely from a more hospitable earlier Venus, or somehow from a hot spring on Earth or Mars.  I think panspermia from a hot spring on Earth or Mars unlikely.

......

Atmospheric Tholins on early Venus, Earth, and Mars, and presently on Titan.
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2010/06/ … lder-study
https://phys.org/news/2010-06-early-ear … hield.html
Quote:

The University of Colorado at Boulder scientists believe the haze was made up primarily of methane and nitrogen chemical byproducts created by reactions with light, said CU-Boulder doctoral student Eric Wolf, lead study author. Not only would the haze have shielded early Earth from UV light, it would have allowed gases like ammonia to build up, causing greenhouse warming and perhaps helped to prevent the planet from freezing over.
The researchers determined the haze of hydrocarbon aerosols was probably made up of fluffy, microscopic particles shaped somewhat like cottonwood tree seeds that would have blocked UV but allowed visible light through to Earth's surface, Wolf said.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2010-06-early-ear … d.html#jCp

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2010-06-early-ear … d.html#jCp

Well, anyway, presuming Venus, Earth, and Mars started out with a protective layer of Hydrocarbons (Nitrogen also included), then where might they have gone?

In the case of Venus, it looks like they were cooked, and the Hydrogen mostly left the solar system.  The Carbon was cooked out of the soils and rocks, and joined with some of the Oxygen from the presumed water???

In the case of Earth, the Carbon was buried in the Earth as Tholin at first, and later by the burial of dead organisms.

In the case of Mars, might much Hydrogen have been expelled to space, but Tholin buried to stay mostly buried?
That is, is there a chance that the Nitrogen might have been locked up into Tholin along with Methane, and buried to typically stay buried.  Might the atmosphere have mostly gone underground, and then be covered with ice and volcanic and wind deposits???

I am not saying yes, I am saying it is a question worth seeking an answer for.

Lately it has been indicated that Mars would not have lost that much atmosphere at the rate of loss occurring now.  The earlier sun might have been much more magnetically active however, so we cannot yet know the true history.

I will agree that the Hydrogen measured by Earth probes indicates serious Hydrogen loss to space.  However even the Earth looses Hydrogen to space.

I do wonder if much of the Nitrogen and Carbon are buried.  I have been told that oil cannot occur without life.  But if Mars was like Titan, and then became mostly geologically inactive, what then.  Can Hydrocarbons-Oils form or Titan?  What about early Mars.  Could oil evolve from buried Tholin?  Or was there life on Mars? Or is there life on Mars?

This doesn't look so stupid to call an oil spill on Mars anymore I think.
http://oilonmars.blogspot.com/

......

I guess my movement of thought from life in the clouds of Venus to Tholin buried on Mars is obviously worthwhile (At least to me), for a couple of things.

Was there life swapping between two or three of the worlds?

Is there a residue buried on Mars of a vast bulk of Tholins, containing resources which might be helpful for terraforming Mars, if it is decided to try terraforming Mars?

I have a fair suspicion that not only did some atmosphere escape to space, but quite a lot may be underground.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-07-08 17:40:28)


Done.

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#62 2018-07-08 17:54:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: General System

It is sort of hard to prove or disprove life in the clouds of venus or underground in mars until Nasa or some one very rich wants to fund a mission to explore on the chance of finding that it exists. We can surmize that it will be true as we have seen that extreme life does exist in unexected locations here on earth as well. All of which we are still questioning why life exists at all since it seems such a random coincidence that we got just the right chemicals in all the right orders on the first try.....

Hey Void doing a repost of what was elsewhere since it really fits here with your overall planning.

Void wrote:

Hmm...  Got a lot of respect for you GW but let you get away from my nonsense.

kbd512:
The skyhook I am thinking of would most likely be rotating.  While it would dip into the Venus atmosphere, the relative speed would be kept a low as possible between the hanging element, and the high level atmosphere.  I would not intend to snag solid objects, but molecules.

Just lifting molecules would require make-up inertia to be added to the machine.  Also any clumsy drag where the hanging element would stir the air would end in a pointless loss of energy.  Some of that has to happen.  Machines are only so efficient at their best.

How to make up for the loss of inertia and prevent the machine from entering the Venus atmosphere?  Well I plan solar sailing of the solar wind type.  A magnetic field at some portion of the machine above the atmosphere and where the solar wind gushes by.  It could be throttled as the device orbited Venus, to receive more or less of a push from the solar wind as is appropriate to keep a reasonably desirable orbit, and to yet pull materials up to orbit from the upper Venus atmosphere.

I was excited because I hoped that BFS might not only be suitable for Earth/Luna and Mars, but also Venus.  I am not yet disappointed by that potential revelation.  Perhaps I will later be.

In this case however I do not intend that BFS will ever intentionally enter the Venus atmosphere to land, rather to change it's inertia by aeroburn method, and to exploit the gravity well of Venus above it's atmosphere.

So with that we then might have the potential to arrive at a Venus vacuum orbit with BFS and it's potential contents, and to also mine the upper atmosphere of Venus for it's materials.

Then if devices like BFS would open access to Earth, Luna, Mars, and Venus, we may hope to have commerce in materials between them.

If the skyhook would work, then Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon may be pulled up to Low Venus Orbit by a rotating skyhook.  Then these things may be provided to the Moon, and/or various customers.  The Moon could very likely be a place where large habitats could be manufactured from solid substances.  Those enclosures could be launched by the rocket propellant of your choice.  I am thinking solid rocket methods from Lunar materials.  Those enclosures sent to Venus, and to aerobrake to the orbit of Venus.  Those enclosures then assembled into orbital habitats to be filled with Oxygen and Nitrogen.  Carbon materials to be used to add strength to these Venus orbiting habitats.

Now then happy habitats for people migrating from Earth. Lots of solar energy, no dust storms, but Mars also.

Spacenut.  Of course you are not wrong, but you are too Mars centric in my opinion.  Four worlds soon.  Earth, Luna, Mars, and Venus.

Isn't that better if you can pull it off?  I am trying to find a method to pull it off.

Its late.

I'm Done for now.

Its ok I hope will post on this tomorrow with your new content....

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#63 2018-07-08 18:23:00

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

Here is a recent reference.  No need to downplay hope.
https://dronedj.com/2018/07/02/nasa-dro … nus-study/
Quote:

NASA’s plan
With the help of drones, NASA plans to fly just above the cloud layer in the upper atmosphere in search of organic material or evidence of such. There is no other information about how the mission will be carried out, but we expect more info to be released once the drone is finished by BST.

The search phrase was:
"NASA Venus Drone".


Done.

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#64 2018-08-20 12:34:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

OK, lull here, and I have dead time.  Think I will log my current theory of Mars.

Aquifers may have been discovered on Mars, under the ice cap, and possibly elsewhere.  That is a radar signature resembling that for liquid water was seen in perhaps two places in the last number of years.

As for extensive aquifers, that is not proven.  However it is perhaps reasonable to expect that on Mars, with a gravity field of ~.38, and a general composition presumed lighter than Earth's, porosity in the surface layers of the crust should be greater and deeper than that of Earth.
And so if you had a fluid released into that porosity at a higher elevation which could remain fluid it would be reasonable to expect it to flow to lower elevations as long as it's supply was sufficient to fill that aquifer system, and not able to leak out to the outer surface.

I think some of the methods to maintain fluidity will be salts, perchlorate salts, dissolved gasses such as CO2, pressure, and in my opinion Earth/Ground Currents.  The ground currents if they exist should add heat to a highly thermally insulated conductor system underground of whetted porous regolith.

A current major source of condensation should be the two polar ice caps.  That condensation should provide both pressure, and air bubbles of Martian air dominated by CO2, and also perhaps even dry ice, and maybe even dissolved CO2, although the water ice frozen may tend to reject it.  It may also provide salts/perchlorates and dust provided by the surface wind process.

Quite a few of the items in the previous paragraph might contribute to the potential of melting at the bottom of these ice caps, if melting occurred.  If melting occurred, then the materials mentioned should appear and have a potential to be concentrated at the bottom of the ice cap.

So, if the combination of pressure, salts, perchlorate salts, and CO2 might promote melting, it would not hurt to have a thermal energy input to assist it in happening.

Unless someone else can think of another source, I choose to restrict the possible sources of thermal energy to geothermal, and to Earth/Ground currents.

It is a bit of a chicken and egg thing.  If you had a pathway and a current, then you could have Earth/Ground Currents that might warm under the Martian regolith, and perhaps under the ice caps and layered terrains surrounding the poles of Mars.

……

What about dust devils and dust storms?
Loss of Hydrogen from the atmosphere of Mars associated with dust storms:
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2018-012
The formation of Hydrogen Peroxide on the surface should then not be that much of a surprise:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … s-on-mars/
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/so … _chem.html
I will guess that in the long run this could lead to perchlorates.

What about ground currents?

Well, I think that is at a wild, wild west level of understanding at this point.

But it sort of seems true that the Mars atmosphere, except for composition and geomagnetic field most resembles the Earths stratosphere.

So, dust devils and global dust storms on Mars would not occur in a troposphere like environment but in a stratosphere resembling environment.  The electrical effects might be somewhat different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atm … _lightning

……

The sources of electrical flow on Mars, that I will presume might happen could be due to dust devils/storms, ionosphere differences of charge, and perhaps even the solar wind itself at times.

For both Earth and Mars, the "Stratosphere" will be involved.  The Earth having a Troposphere, that will be involved, but for Mars, I anticipate that the regolith which could be in part dry permafrost, icy permafrost, and porosity regolith whetted by cold brines with the potential addition of CO2 and pressure, will behave to a degree like the troposphere of the Earth.

This just could-might be evidence of an electrical discharge:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Al … ORM=VRDGAR
No dust storms local.  So, from another cause?

To be continued...Maybe.... smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-20 13:41:50)


Done.

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#65 2018-08-28 21:59:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I guess I will put this here rather than to start a new thing, or to clutter someone else's thing.

George Church.  I like to listen to him.  Seems like a really good guy.  Interesting also.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ge … ORM=VRDGAR


I like all of this presentation, but towards the end, he mentions terraforming the Earth with large mammals in the tundra areas, or perhaps he is saying that we could stop an unfortunate type of terraforming which may have started 10,000 to 15,000 years ago.

Cold adapted Asian Elephants:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ma … ORM=VRDGAR

That's about it.

Last edited by Void (2018-08-28 22:05:54)


Done.

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#66 2018-09-18 20:33:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

OK, take a deep breath, calm down, don't worry.  Be assured that their will be a last fly to lay maggot eggs in the last human eye and then that last fly will die.  Before that though we have chances for things to do. smile

So, what about the Earth, Luna, Mars, and Venus?

Taking deep breaths!!

Well, I am pretty good with the SpaceX plans for Mars, except, I want more.  That's pretty cool, a BFS that can just land on Mars.  It makes me think of troupes trained to run so fast and be able to lift so much.  Champion.  But would you really make them to out to the battle without clothes or weapons?  Surely if we care about these who might qualify, we must whatever we can for them.

That applies to the Moon, Mars, or Venus.

……

I feel I have to work with your language.  I normally don't think in words.  But now I will say what I think might be a new word.

OrbitSphere.  smile

Your language annoys me.  You are so silly.  But OK.  You have a GeoSphere, and an AtmoSphere, and now maybe we might suggest a OrbitSphere.  Honestly they are all in local gravity wells.

So, an Orbitsphere would be where you can orbit within a local gravity well, and not be encompassed by an atmosphere or a collision with a solid surface.

……

And Elon Musk also is the author of mind enhancement, by cyborg process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/elon-mu … dcast.html

For the brits as I suppose might be true:
Now if you have that, can you not build things on the Moon, by telepresence?
For those who I have come from:
Now if you have got that can't you get some stuff on the Moon in large quantities by the use of otherwise stupid idled human grey matter?  Using telepresence of course.

So, then with billions of cyborg minds from Earth cannot we build hollow objects which could be projected to Venus to do a reasonable aeroburn to Venus orbit?

And then we would have resources such as what was projected to Venus from the Moon, what Venus has to offer, as to it's atmosphere at first and all the way down to it's crust eventually?  And what about photons from the sun.  Very energy strong at that location I should think or photon dense.  Having language problems, sorry.  But strong!

So much for our kind if we master it.

The BFS may be able to access the Venus Oribitsphere without endangering a crew.  But some additional permissions such as a containment or additional propulsion resourses around Venus may be required to be permitted/facilitated.

I am tired. Good night.  Calm down.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-09-18 21:09:58)


Done.

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#67 2018-09-19 12:58:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

So, with a great amount of good fortune, which will likely require a lot of patience, I see a four world "Inner System".

Earth, where for some time the most people are likely to be.
The Moon/Luna, where a great number of people on Earth will have part of their cyborg brain.
Mars, a mini-Earth/Low g launch base to the outer solar system in the making.
And Venus, I think very likely to become eventually the most populated location in the solar system.

So, if you are one of those who has part of your brain on the Moon per Neuralink;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink

You might have an avatar on the Moon, where you could open it's eyes and with some training deal with the time latency.
Your ears might be in your feet, and perhaps you might speak through your feet into the ground, but of course you might as well have radio communications, or infrared flash communications.

This could be your job.  You link up for several hours a day to an avatar, or for a time period of a part of a month, and perform various tasks to build launchable structures for instance on the surface of the Moon.  And you would get a paycheck for the efforts.

OK some kind of a launch system most adapted to the local conditions, and you send structure to various places in the solar system.  Of particular interest to me at this time of course as you could likely tell in my previous post.  Would be the Obritsphere of Venus.  But if Terraformer really wants to dwell in a Atmospheric acid cloud city, we might send him some stuff also.

I would presume that in many cases these objects would be designed to aeroburn either to an Orbitsphere, or an Atmosphere, or in the case of Mars or Earth perhaps a surface.  (Much harder to enable, as landing rockets most likely required).

And so that's the deal.  Four worlds.  And from them the ability to reach other worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-09-19 13:59:25)


Done.

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#68 2018-09-19 14:02:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

Reuse vs disposal.

Well, if you are at the edge of your envelope, then disposal.

If BFR/BFS works out, then usually for the Earth/Moon system, then reuse of hardware. 

However that could become a silly behavior, if you are edging out to other worlds.  I really think that BFS should be made compatible with disposable or repurposed equipment(s).

For instance when going to Mars at first why in the world would you not include a method to refuel in orbit of Mars?  Why would you not bring along a barge of extra whatever?

The barge could be disposable, but even better, it could aeroburn to the Mars Orbitsphere, or the Venus Orbitsphere.  It might has it's own propulsion system, so as to return to Earth's Orbitsphere, if you really want to always no matter what recycle hardware.

I can imagine just how much more safety margin you could add with such a thing.  And how much more capability.

It does not on the surface appear that BFS is engineered for that, but after all if you imagine some versions of BFS, then yes they might lift modular components for such a barge to the Earth Orbitsphere.


I was supposed to stop posting after last night.

Anyone got some cactus juice?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-09-19 14:10:36)


Done.

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#69 2018-09-19 15:34:42

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,800
Website

Re: General System

Well, I see it more as Three Worlds for the plausible mid-future. A partially terraformed Mars with homesteads and city states, an industrialised Lunar megalopolis concentrated at the polar regions, and of course Terra housing the vast majority of humanity.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#70 2018-09-19 19:39:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: General System

MIT did do a trade route article some years ago between the earth, moon and mars but I would agree that adding Venus to that mix does give more places and resource to exchange with the places that do not have them.

Keep in mind these are excess materials that do not effect sustainability of being there or cost fuels to go about this trade route that are not insitu made.

found it post #22 in http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7565
To save on weight, a detour to the moon is the best route to Mars: For a piloted mission to Mars, fueling up on the moon could streamline cargo by 68 percent.

This one include the asteriods as well
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/11/m … ities.html

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r … etbase.php

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#71 2018-09-23 14:37:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

I had to find a family member dead.  I will be absent for a time.


Done.

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#72 2018-09-23 16:22:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: General System

Sorry to hear of this, take care....

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#73 2018-09-23 19:24:54

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,362

Re: General System

Void,

Likewise, sorry to hear that.  Take care of your family first.  We'll look forward to your return.

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#74 2018-09-27 15:17:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: General System

Very kind.  Still a bit messed up.  Observer on occasion for a while.


Done.

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#75 2018-09-27 15:43:45

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,423
Website

Re: General System

Void:

My condolences.  A death in the family is always rough.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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