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#1 2018-04-05 15:22:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

General System

Alright, I will post here only, if the moderators allow.

Why a general system?  Well, because the materials I intend to post will cross all bounds (Except bad behaviors that the moderators would need to take action for).

As for the other sections, I intend to stay away from them.  Less trouble, less clashes.  If this does not work, then maybe bye bye for good.
......

Lets start here:
Kimbal Musk: "How Elon Musk's brother Kimbal Musk is disrupting farming with 'food revolution'".

Read more: http://www.afr.com/technology/how-elon- … z5BpskQEdf

In short they are doing farming under artificial lights.  They try to claim that it is worth it.  I would support the use of such methods in space and on Mars for various reasons.

For one thing, in some planned cases, the dangers of explosive decompression will be minimized.

Another thing is the energy can be recycled in those planed cases.

Further, for the crops, the length of day might be arbitrary.  For instance perhaps 16 hours day 8 hours night.

In the beginning of occupation of Mars, when most things must be imported, the apparatus to do this may not be anymore a burden than to import a greenhouse that can withstand the conditions on the surface of Mars.

Later on per the desired insitu production of as much equipment as possible, I do not have an assurance of which will be better to implement.  But I have a bias for artificial lighting until proven wrong.  That is because it can be sheltered from the harsh Martian surface environment by several methods.

......

The next post will cover those sheltering methods.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 15:39:15)


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#2 2018-04-05 15:40:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

So the sheltering methods I have in mind, have to do with vast sheets of thick ice which also includes significant amounts of regolith mixed in.

So, in my mind the object is to melt canals of water in the ice bounded by regolith, and protected by a top covering.  Also to "Carve" vaults in the majority of ice over a long time span, the vaults to hold artificial light greenhouses.

The two sub-systems, the canals and the vaults will be intimately connected with each other.  Also another component on the surface will be added.

A ~Cone shaped hollow of Metals and/or Ceramic materials (But not excluding other possible useful materials).

This is to serve as a photo-voltaic and thermal solar collector, and as a greenhouse, and as a radiator.  It will port energy into the canals and the vaults, and will vent energy from both of those into the sky to generate electricity, particularly at night.  For the greenhouse option, transparent materials will not be involved.

At an appropriate location on the cone will be high temperature solar panels to generate electricity.  They will be the target of solar concentration formed by a set of heliostats around the cone.

In addition to doing this the heliostats will be capable of heating portions of the cone to the point where red and near infrared light will be emitted by some of the interior surfaces of the cones.  Red and near infrared light are sufficient for Oxygen producing Photosynthesis.
However, it is not forbidden to also have Photosynthesis that uses longer infrared, it just won't produce Oxygen.

The cones will actually project through the ice so that their bottoms are immersed in the water of the canals.

The bottoms of the interiors of the cones will be filled with water.  While the heat shines into the cone, the water in the interiors can shed heat by various methods into the canal, preventing overheating of the waters in the interior of the cones.

It is not out of the question that vascular plants could be grown inside of these cones, particularly fresh water pond vascular plants, but I am really more interested in microbes that do photosynthesis.  Therefore the pressurization of the interiors of the cones might be ~20 mb.

Not very much of a structural challenge.

So this is how the cones could gather energy during the day, into the canals as heat, and into the vaults as electrical energy to light artificial light farms.

......

What about shedding heat from the canals to the Martial sky to generate electricity?

Well for now the notion is to attach tubing to the interior of the cone, where the sun don't shine.  The lower portions of the walls I propose.
Then the tubing also connecting to heat exchangers at the bottoms of the fresh water canals where the temperatures can be as high as 39 DegC (Metrics figure it out yourselves).

A fluid to boil such as Ammonia.  The to condense in the tubing attached to the interior of the walls of the cone.  The two to allow a turbine method to generate electricity.

So, perhaps plenty of electricity in the night time, to run factories in the vaults, and farms in the vaults, and to generate chemicals, to dump into the canals to promote chemosynthesis in the canals.

.....

The next post will be about the vaults that I have spoken of.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 16:05:43)


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#3 2018-04-05 16:06:52

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

The Vaults.

I can point to many articles which continuously upgrade the estimates of the amount of sub-surface ice which exists on Mars, quite often in very thick slabs.  Hundreds of feet thick.

This is just one reference:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/scie … sheet.html
Quote:

Ms. Stuurman, the lead author of an article in the journal Geophysical Research Letters that described the findings, said the radar reflections revealed that the ice sheet, ranging in thickness from 260 to 560 feet, covered an area larger than New Mexico.

So, those thicknesses are sufficient to suppose a melt water layer possible of at least 100 feet, which is ~1 bar of pressure, and not such a thickness of melt water where Nitrogen narcosis should usually be feared.

I believe that other articles cite a regolith content from 15% to 50% for these ice deposits.  That is marvelous.
Some of the things that could be made with that regolith are:
1) Berms to separate the melt water from an ice body.
2) A part of the covering to shelter an ice layer above the melt water (Lighter components manufactured should also be include in that mix).
3) Salts, Minerals.  The melt water interacting with the regolith will release salts and generate salts.  The Salts can be mined for chemicals.
4) Mineral Wool can be manufactured from it which will be rather important for the "Vaults" and some other things.

......

Alright, I have mentioned Cones previously projecting though the ice layer, and also that the ice layer will be protected by a mechanical method.  I prefer for now to imagine a plastic web laid down on the top of the ice, a vapor barrier, and over that heaped a mixture of gravel like regolith mixed with something puffy and light such as Styrofoam beads.  The mixture as a whole should be lighter than ice.

Although methods can be implemented to reduce water losses from the canals, water losses will occur.  So then this is one of the ways the vaults can help.  By making more of them, then "Make-Up" water to maintain the hydration of the canals can be implemented until a whole cycling planetary system can be established, over a period of decades or centuries.


......

So, what would an "Ice Vault" be like?

To start with , you would carve out only the outline of the ice in the vault.  The vast interior of it would remain frozen until the outside cone/bell/arch shaped layer was completed.  The cone/bell/arch shaped layer would be composed of fiber-ice.  That is you would start at the bottom at the "Ground Line" for the ice layer and carve a bell like outline of the wall into the ice.  Then as you progressed you would fill that void with wetted mineral wool, and allow it to freeze again.  How thick?  I don't know.  That is a thing to investigate.

When the bell shape was completed, you could begin melting the interior of the bell progressively and carefully.

You would build a second interior wall as you did that, with a dead air space between the fiber ice wall and this second wall of materials.  A tent, or a real fiberglass wall, or metal.  Do as you like.

As you melted the interior of the bell, you would be creating more "Land".  Eventually when the interior was melted, you would have a enclosure which could be maintained at freezing temperatures +/- several degrees.

While you were melting it you would be generating "Make-Up" water to refill the canals as they become reduced of their water.

After you completed the bell, you would begin to build greenhouses, houses, and any other thing you like inside the bell.  You could also go ahead and start building another bell/Vault.

So, if your canals occupied 1%< of the ice body, then 99% of the ice body could be transformed into vaults, or the ice that surrounds the vaults.

As for disposing of the heat in the vaults.  It could be dumped into the canals.  The canals will likely have temperatures of from 0 DegC to 39 DegC (Metrics do your own work).

Well, there is much more, but there may be other days.  Unless stopped, I will return to this specific topic.

I will be recovering various materials of posts that I have done elsewhere to create a comprehensive system.

smile

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 16:37:57)


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#4 2018-04-05 16:49:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Just to introduce you to the notion of a life system strongly reliant upon chemosynthesis I will attempt to produce some references to it.

Quorn:  The Brits should be more familiar to this than anybody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

Not entirely sure I trust the stuff, still moving in the right direction.  A fungus, made into a meat substitute by a binder of eggs or potatoe poteins.  So, a direction.  Not a completion of capabilities by any means.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 16:59:18)


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#5 2018-04-05 16:52:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,286

Re: General System

Didn't know there was another talented Musk looking to change the way we do things so fundamentally!  It does look like indoor farming of salad vegetables in urban settings can be made profitable.

I think I agree with your general approach.

Initially on Mars, it will make sense to import nearly all food with perhaps 5% being supplemented from small vegetable farm habs, to provide fresh salad vegetables.

As the colony grows, it makes sense to expand indoor "Artificial Light" at a rapid rate. One of the advantages on Mars of indoor farming is that the structure for that can be created v. easily - with cut and cover (use a digger to make a trench and then put in place the ceiling overlay)  being an easy method requiring minimal construction.

But longer term, soil and natural light is an incredibly cheap way of producing food, and so will probably win out over artificial light...at least in the early decades. Ultimately though, I think we will (as a species) opt for indoor farming, once we have perfected solar array satellites to provide extremely cheap solar powered electricity.  Indoor farming has a lot of advantages in terms of reduced inputs of fertiliser, pesticides and other chemicals and perfectly controlled conditions to produce optimal crops, plus reduced transport costs. 


Void wrote:

Alright, I will post here only, if the moderators allow.

Why a general system?  Well, because the materials I intend to post will cross all bounds (Except bad behaviors that the moderators would need to take action for).

As for the other sections, I intend to stay away from them.  Less trouble, less clashes.  If this does not work, then maybe bye bye for good.
......

Lets start here:
Kimbal Musk: "How Elon Musk's brother Kimbal Musk is disrupting farming with 'food revolution'".

Read more: http://www.afr.com/technology/how-elon- … z5BpskQEdf

In short they are doing farming under artificial lights.  They try to claim that it is worth it.  I would support the use of such methods in space and on Mars for various reasons.

For one thing, in some planned cases, the dangers of explosive decompression will be minimized.

Another thing is the energy can be recycled in those planed cases.

Further, for the crops, the length of day might be arbitrary.  For instance perhaps 16 hours day 8 hours night.

In the beginning of occupation of Mars, when most things must be imported, the apparatus to do this may not be anymore a burden than to import a greenhouse that can withstand the conditions on the surface of Mars.

Later on per the desired insitu production of as much equipment as possible, I do not have an assurance of which will be better to implement.  But I have a bias for artificial lighting until proven wrong.  That is because it can be sheltered from the harsh Martian surface environment by several methods.

......

The next post will cover those sheltering methods.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#6 2018-04-05 16:57:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Good Louis.  I am not aiming for a either or situation.  A fight to the death.  Rather, I propose to offer options and may what works best prevail.  I suspect that it will be a mixture of methods.  Not all crops are the same.

Some may be best in artificial light.  Some will be best done in fully pressurized sun lit structures.  Some will do OK with 70 mb.  Some may do OK, ultimately if genetically engineered in environments not that much harsher than the Martian ambient.

I think it unlikely that U.V. can be directly conquered though.  By not much harsher than Martian ambient, I suggest U.V. protection and a moisturized slightly higher pressure environment for microbial crops that draw energy from filtered sunlight.


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#7 2018-04-05 18:28:18

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,286

Re: General System

Indeed, horses for courses...some crops will be viable under artificial indoor farming methods before others.

But artificially lit indoor farming (ALIF)is really an industrial process and like all industrial processes can benefit hugely from economies of scale, increased automation and innovative technical solutions, whereas soil and natural light agriculture is probably pretty much at its limit in terms of energy/labour efficiency.

There must be some (theoretical) point at which ALIF is more input/output cost efficient than soil/natural light.  The only issue is whether it is practical to reach that point with any particular crop. It looks like we might already be there with niche herbs/salad vegetables.  If that is the case, then I think it is only a matter of time before it becomes more efficient for all other crops as well. Energy cost is clearly one key factor. But also, land...the great thing about ALIF is of course you can go underground and "create" the land there or you can just build up and up and up. Of course, at some point orbital ALIF may become possible.

Void wrote:

Good Louis.  I am not aiming for a either or situation.  A fight to the death.  Rather, I propose to offer options and may what works best prevail.  I suspect that it will be a mixture of methods.  Not all crops are the same.

Some may be best in artificial light.  Some will be best done in fully pressurized sun lit structures.  Some will do OK with 70 mb.  Some may do OK, ultimately if genetically engineered in environments not that much harsher than the Martian ambient.

I think it unlikely that U.V. can be directly conquered though.  By not much harsher than Martian ambient, I suggest U.V. protection and a moisturized slightly higher pressure environment for microbial crops that draw energy from filtered sunlight.


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#8 2018-04-05 19:30:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,079

Re: General System

Viod welcome back..
The first post contains vertical farming to which we do have this topic to which there are many key elements within the article. Since we are talking many cargo bfr landing before this can be done so in the old topics I suggested to make use of the cargo landers for the internal room to make into the first greenhouse food plants during those first few missions as a means to supplement food we bring with what we can grow fast with some long growing season items just to push the process so that we are not just reliant on fast growing crops forever cycle. The amount of grey water reuse is another nice number to know for the growth numbers to make our food.

Something that is misleading is "320-square-foot (30 sq m) steel " which takes no numbers into account for the verticle use which when talking 8 foot cielings versus 6 or 10 matters for what you will be able to produce from the limited space that we will have.

The artificial light is only part of what makes the plants grow efficiently as its also how warm and what nutrients that they get that also matter not just how long the lights are on or off or the amount of water that they get.

Edit... need sleep must work tomorrow...

The pressure trouble I have with mars is how we describe it in several differing units of measurements example

The atmospheric pressure on the Martian surface averages 600 pascals (0.087 psi; 6.0 mbar), about 0.6% of Earth's mean sea level pressure of 101.3 kilopascals (14.69 psi; 1,013 mbar).

as it make it hard to see what is meant when we are using so many units of measure to describe the mars atmosphere.

https://www.asknumbers.com/bars-to-psi.aspx

http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/File … ram-17.pdf

Air is composed of approximately 21% oxygen(3.09 psi), 78% nitrogen (11.47 psi) (or total 1 b or 14.7 psi) and other trace components. Asphyxiation is the greatest hazard associated with nitrogen and other inert gases, such as argon and helium. However, the addition of any gas, except oxygen, to air reduces the oxygen concentration through displacement and dilution.

So we would like a target value of 70mb (1.01 psi) inside the chamber for plants to grow which is a magnetude of 10 above the current mars surface values in which it will mean that men will be in a space suit to be able to grow these plants.
We have had mixed gas at lower partial pressure discusions for what men can acclimate to around 3 psi or about 210 mb of nearly all oxygen. The early being able to work in the greenhouse would be of great benefit if we could do so without suits but that will need to wait....

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#9 2018-04-05 19:38:02

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Spacenut, thanks for the welcome.  Perhaps this will be more comfortable.

I do understand that this web site partitions off ideas, into specialties.  However in this thread "General System" my intention is to show how various components can be joined for otherwise hidden benefits.

I am not specifically against air pressurized greenhouses or domes, but so far I lack faith in their maintainability at a cost.
To become more comfortable with the concept, I would like examples of where it has been done.  So far I can only think of the "Cupola" on the international space station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupola_(ISS_module)
300px-Exterior_of_Cupola_-_Exp28.jpg

While that is magnificent, the cost of a carrot has me thinking that I must starve due to a lack of sufficient money.
More power to you guys if you can pressurize a whole greenhouse and maintain it's integrity year after year, or at least have safety measures for the gardeners in the event of a leak.  In the event of that then you also might loose some of the value of a destroyed crop.  Hopefully food in cold storage for that event.

But my purpose here is not to oppose pressurized greenhouses and domes, but to supplement them with alternate means that are not as subject to such a type of failure.

So, for now I mention three types of alternative, although there are others.

1) The artificial light method.  I consider the likelihood of making giant vaults in the deep ice, as a method to put those structures into a pressurized "Vault".  I also consider that methods will be available to reuse the waste heat.  Dump it into the canals I mentioned, and then use it to generate electricity in the Martian night, and perhaps even morning and afternoon.  (Maybe all day).

2) I want to use heliostats to heat high temperature solar cells on upper portions of cone structures which will likely have a low internal pressure.  20-70 mb???

In this process I want to be able to radiate at least the red and near infrared spectrum into the interior of the cones where I hope those photons will promote Oxygen producing photosynthesis, and the generation of biomass of course.

*NOTE: in my next post I will go into detail about #2.

3) Chemical Biology, perhaps in the waters of the canals.
      -The rusting of dune materials should generate Hydrogen, and perhaps clays, if you play it right, and salts.  The salts might be mined
        to the degree that it is convenient.
      -Electrolysis of water can generate Oxygen and Hydrogen.
      -Electrolysis of CO2 can generate CO and Oxygen.
      -The Martian atmosphere itself contains small amounts of Oxygen and CO, which if we could figure out how to harvest, would be a
       biological bonanza.  Imagine that, the whole atmosphere of Mars, regenerating a supply of Oxygen and CO from photolysis.
 

I mentioned Quorn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

Quorn is not a sufficient answer at this time without other developments.  It requires glucose, and some nutrients have to be added to it.  However it suggests how microbes can be used to provide nutrition to humans.  In this case, a meat substitute.

However with the methods I have mentioned, I can imagine real vegetables from an artificial light greenhouse, and perhaps oils from microbes grown in the canals and in the cones I have mentioned.  While that might yield fuels, it might also feed microbes that could be cultured to make a meat or vegetable substitute.  3D food printers might help.

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … _food.html

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=3d … &FORM=VIRE

I will next go into details about a proposal for the cones, and the heliostats that would focus light on them.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 20:04:19)


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#10 2018-04-05 20:06:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

So, the cones and heliostats.

Well the cones would be hollow structures which would actually float on the water of the canals.  They would project far enough down through the general ice covering so that their bottoms would be intimate with liquid water.  A challenge will exist to insulate the sides where the ice joins to the cone, so that the ice is not melted or evaporated.  Very good insulation methods most likely required.

It is my intention that typically at the bottom of the cones in their interior will be a pool of water.  How deep?  Well whatever works.

That pool of water is to host life.

It is not inconceivable that aquatic plants of large scale could be there.  But for that I believe you would need at least 70 mb pressure in the cone.  Against that is their are few aquatic plants that would thrive in that environment, and very few would be significantly edible.  Not domesticated yet.  They most likely would not do well in red and near infrared light.

However microbes have adapted to many conditions.  So, I suggest that microbes that can produce Oxygen and biomass under red and near infrared light be farmed in these waters.  With the progress of genetic engineering I anticipate that their productive values could be increased.

While there will be many alternate more complex schemes, I will suggest that if the water in the cone is in the range of 32 degF to 39 degF typically, then the 39 degf water will settle to the bottom of the pool, as it is the most heavy.

That then allows transfer of heat from 39 degF water on the bottom of the pool in the cone to the water under the cone in the canal.  The canal if it is fresh will have water at a temperature of 32 degF / 0 degC just under the ice layer.  If heat transfers through the bottom of the cone into the top level of the water of the canal, then that canal water will heat up, and will sink to a lower position.  This then has energized the water of the canal. 

The water in the canal is vibrating more as a whole.

So you have stored energy.  To convert it to electricity, then you need a heat exchanger in the canal.  Maybe Ammonia filled tubing at the bottom of the canal where the temperatures of the water will be highest.  And so that would be your evaporator/boiler.  Now you need a condenser.  That could be tubing attached to the portions of the cone which the heliostats don't aim light at.  This scheme should work the best at night, but perhaps some parts of the day as well.

......

In truth, I am ready to modify that.  I would like to have cones which inject heat into the canal and allow photosynthesis, and I would like cones which are simply hollow and not heated, and which the Ammonia could condense in, perhaps any time of the day.

......

About the high temperature solar cells.  I am anticipating that there will be a solar system economy involving the Earth/Moon and Mars, and perhaps later other worlds.  I see that specialization is probable.  The Earth/Moon system can manufacture high temperature solar cells, and Copper heliostats, electroplated with a shiny mirror coating.  Mars can manufacture fuels and resins, maybe even food for the Moon, but not so sure about the viability of that.

The point of all of this would be that the Earth/Moon system would send spaceships with people to Mars.  Those ships would in part be powered by high temperature solar cells, with Copper Heliostats.

Lets image that 9 times out of 10, the ships would leave behind the solar cells, and the heliostats in Martian orbit.  Those devices would be delivered to the surface of Mars.  These 9 ships would return to Earth without crews or passengers.  Typically the ships would be sent back to Earth with chemical propulsion.

The solar cells to be delivered to new hot cones.  The copper to be rendered into motor windings, or whatever.

1 time out of 10 a ship would go back to Earth with the solar cells and heliostats, because they are needed to generate a radiation shield.
Such a ship would carry people back to Earth.  Crew, Scientists, ect.

Typically the ships would be sent back to Earth with chemical propulsion in any case.

......

OK the heliostats for the hot cones.  I actually may have a very simplified method for that but you can't have it.

So, lets talk discrete heliostats, such as similar to those used on Earth with solar power towers. 

I don't want to waste Copper or Aluminum on these any more than is necessary.  I would like them to be composed as much as possible of fiberglass and/or Carbon parts.

How they would be aimed and powered would be an interesting puzzle.

I have considered weighted clockwork.

But for now, I suggest a Cryogenic fluid be periodically filled into a tank on each heliostat by a robot.  Perhaps liquid CO2, Argon, or Nitrogen.

The ambient thermal properties of Mars should allow these to power pneumatic motors for the powering of the heliostats.

As for aiming them.  I should think a AI on the cone watching alternately each heliostat could tell them each how far off the desired target they are aimed.  They would then require a process control to right themselves.

That is just one suggestion.

That's enough for now.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 20:37:30)


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#11 2018-04-05 20:38:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

I do have a bit of fun though.

The "Mooning Corporation" smile

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl … cond-moon/
Quote:

Tesla and SpaceX founder and CEO Elon Musk announced his plans to build a second natural satellite for the Earth in a video posted on Twitter this morning. According to Musk, his Moon could be launched as soon as 2021.

Is he serious?  How should I know?

But we know that he built a "Boring Company", after a similarly non-believable statement.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

But if he does then I can speculate that it will likely obit the Earth somewhere.

While he talks about using foam for it, I think that if he did it much materials would come from the Moon, and some from the Earth.

Artificial gravity?  Factories?  Solar Cell manufacturing?  Oxygen manufacturing for the BFR and for humans to breath?

My guess is that if it is not a farce, it would be somewhere in the protection of the Earths radiation belts, but not so low that atmospheric drag would be a big problem.

But maybe he was just goofing off.  Don't know.


Quite Done smile

Last edited by Void (2018-04-05 21:34:30)


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#12 2018-04-06 03:12:20

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,286

Re: General System

1st April?

Void wrote:

I do have a bit of fun though.

The "Mooning Corporation" smile

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl … cond-moon/
Quote:

Tesla and SpaceX founder and CEO Elon Musk announced his plans to build a second natural satellite for the Earth in a video posted on Twitter this morning. According to Musk, his Moon could be launched as soon as 2021.

Is he serious?  How should I know?

But we know that he built a "Boring Company", after a similarly non-believable statement.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

But if he does then I can speculate that it will likely obit the Earth somewhere.

While he talks about using foam for it, I think that if he did it much materials would come from the Moon, and some from the Earth.

Artificial gravity?  Factories?  Solar Cell manufacturing?  Oxygen manufacturing for the BFR and for humans to breath?

My guess is that if it is not a farce, it would be somewhere in the protection of the Earths radiation belts, but not so low that atmospheric drag would be a big problem.

But maybe he was just goofing off.  Don't know.


Quite Done smile


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#13 2018-04-06 07:34:07

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Indeed that could be a part or all of it.  But he did not wait for April 1.  Parts of it are goofy.  The foam thing.

Still even though he is really capable in engineering and business, he is a romantic.  He wanted a Mars settlement, and then a Moon base, and I suspect a space station like in 2001.  David Bowie per falcon heavy.

Ever since the launch of falcon heavy, the zombies have been after him however.  They are hoping to take down Tesla and then SpaceX along with Elon Musk.

He does not have time for space station dreams just now.

However nature abhors a vacuum.  It only makes sense to put a space station in a suitable orbit and process lunar materials to assist in travel to Mars, the Moon, and elsewhere.

Oxygen from lunar materials could:
-Be Oxygen for a standard combustion rocket.
-Be toss mass for a ion rocket.
-Be toss mass for an Oxygen Mass Driver.

The portion of metals extractable would be of value in orbit to construct useful objects.

The portion that could be used to make solar panels, either standard type of high temperature would be valuable.

A small portion could be injected into the Earths atmosphere to cool the Earth down in the even global warming is real and unacceptable.
(Here I am not judging how the globe is warming.  I am just providing a treatment if the globe is warming).

Finally, the slag could be made into mineral fibers which might be bonded to a fiberglass type substance, by resins, maybe his foam.
The pseudo fiberglass to in part construct a space station/second moon.

But, maybe April 1 after all.  smile


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#14 2018-04-06 15:54:25

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,286

Re: General System

The article is dated 1st April.

Void wrote:

Indeed that could be a part or all of it.  But he did not wait for April 1.  Parts of it are goofy.  The foam thing.

Still even though he is really capable in engineering and business, he is a romantic.  He wanted a Mars settlement, and then a Moon base, and I suspect a space station like in 2001.  David Bowie per falcon heavy.

Ever since the launch of falcon heavy, the zombies have been after him however.  They are hoping to take down Tesla and then SpaceX along with Elon Musk.

He does not have time for space station dreams just now.

However nature abhors a vacuum.  It only makes sense to put a space station in a suitable orbit and process lunar materials to assist in travel to Mars, the Moon, and elsewhere.

Oxygen from lunar materials could:
-Be Oxygen for a standard combustion rocket.
-Be toss mass for a ion rocket.
-Be toss mass for an Oxygen Mass Driver.

The portion of metals extractable would be of value in orbit to construct useful objects.

The portion that could be used to make solar panels, either standard type of high temperature would be valuable.

A small portion could be injected into the Earths atmosphere to cool the Earth down in the even global warming is real and unacceptable.
(Here I am not judging how the globe is warming.  I am just providing a treatment if the globe is warming).

Finally, the slag could be made into mineral fibers which might be bonded to a fiberglass type substance, by resins, maybe his foam.
The pseudo fiberglass to in part construct a space station/second moon.

But, maybe April 1 after all.  smile


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#15 2018-04-06 18:42:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,079

Re: General System

I did find the vertical posts in this topic Indoor farming update

louis wrote:

On the subject of food, this farm hab on Antarctica seems to be working well. No reason we shouldn't see something similar as part of Mission One on Mars. This one is going to produce 4-5 kgs of fruit and veg per week, which would certainly help keep a 10 person crew healthy and happy, having a little bit of fresh food to go with the imported meals and ingredients.

https://apnews.com/bb14d1bf3a6143118ba9910b11adb5d8

Called the Eden-ISS, the greenhouse exists inside a climate-controlled shipping container.
AAvyIxv.img?h=373&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f
The farm can grow food year-round for researchers at the Neumayer III polar station on the Ekstrom Ice Shelf. The researchers plan to grow between 30 and 50 different species, including leafy greens, peppers, strawberries, radishes, and tomatoes, as well as herbs like basil and parsley.

Voids post 2 & 3 ice cavern....
The only problem once a carvern is created is keeping the heat from the floor/ plant area from rising and melting the ceiling of the carvern. You might have covered that aspect but with a headache its hard to focus on what was written. Will reread it again later....


.

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#16 2018-04-06 20:40:44

SpaceNut
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#17 2018-04-06 21:44:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Well Louis, it appears I have been shown as gullible.  No big surprise there.  Still I recall looking at articles posted before April #1.  Maybe I should cut back smile

Spacenut to the rescue.  Very unanticipated.  But Thank You sincerely!


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#18 2018-04-07 10:18:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Agricultural Options:
Thanks Louis and SpaceNut for being fair minded.  I enjoy the expamles of Antarctic methods of agriculture in enclosures, and with artificial lighting.
As I have stated before, I am not at all opposed to greenhouses presurized.  I just think that per square foot, the costs will be very significant.  I am not validated as a engineer.  I have some similar capabilities, but they just make it more possible that I will make a fool of myself.  Anyway, my "Peter Pan" notions will be on display here.
I have nothing to risk except my reputation, which is largely in question anyway, and I only care a little about that. smile

So, agriculture on Mars.  What are the proposed methods?
1) Actually, my impression is that NASA and others more favor enclosures with artificial lighting.  My feeling is that similar to Antarctica, arch shaped voids can be carved in thick ice sheets, and these re-enforced with frozen "Fiber-Ice".  A second wall, will allow the interior to be slightly above freezing perhaps or even slightly below freezing.  A pressurized domain.  10 lbs per square inch?  Nitrogen/Argon/Oxygen?  Then you can have rather flimsy enclosures which will have artificial lighting.  How to power the artificial lighting?  Well, we must be adaptive.  If we have lots of conductive materials such as Copper and Aluminum, and the neccessary protection for those, which means insulators, and conduits, then standard Earth methods.  If not then an inovation is necessary.  In this case I reccomend pipelines of a fuel.  Methans?  Even Hydrogen?  And fuel cells.  If the voids have a Nitrogen/Argon/Oxygen mix at 10 psi, then fuel cells may work.  You still need some Copper and/or Aluminum, but you perhaps reduce the required amount by at least ~90%???
2) This web site prefers to speak of greenhouses and domes.  Well, as I have already indicated I will praise you if you can do it safely, and effectivly.  I do belive that over time experience will make it more and more possible.  However I don't feel that very much real world (Mars) testing has been done for this.  It must be considered a work in progress.
3) Chemosynthesis is another method.  I am rather sure that that can work, but it has limitations.  Currently it cannot support any vascular plant I am aware of.   Therefore microbial activity, only with a possible exception of a clam type of organism which can with the help of symbiotic bacteria, live off of Methane and Oxygen.  Don't know how practical cultivation of such clams could be.
4) Ice windows, light direct from the sun:  In this method light would travel through an ice layer above a lake of liquid water.  On Mars in it's current condition this then mandates a protective covering such as a largely unpressurized greenhouse.  Methods to deal with the hostile U.V. spectrum are also required.  This could grow plants and microbes directly in the water column, or if transparent enclosures are provided, then possibly vascular plants.  The addition of a solar concentrating mirror to the enclosures is probabbly wise.  These enclosures could be diving bell in nature or pressurized canisters in nature.
5) I have also explored "Re-Radiation".  In this case, heliostats would heat up protions a slightly pressurized enclosure, such as a cone shape, to red hot at least.  Red and near infrared light would be emitted to the interior of the enclosure.  Higer temperatures and not ruled out with shorter waverlengths than red, but I would say lets start with easy first.  Red, and Near infrared, or maybe even just Near Infrared.  See what can be accomplished.  This system also most likely does not very well support vascular plants, but microbes.
6) Surface canisterization agriculture:  In this case I reccommend a "Shed with void portals, and heliostats".
To explain that, an unpressurized shed, perhaps of stone blocks and a tent ceiling, or whatever.
Depending on which hemisphere this exists in a specific relationship between the location of the heliostats, and the shed.  If in the northern hemisphere, then the heliostats are more north than the shed.  If in  the southern hemisphere, then the heliostats more south than the shed.
The objective, being that the heliostats will shine a focus of reflected sunlight through a port in the side of the shed.  No glaze, just an opening.  This then at least makes for the heating of the interior of the "Shed".  Do what is useful with that if you like.
In my case, I am going to desire to modify the spectrum of light which is experienced by certain locations in the shed.
We have two possibilities to handle the U.V.
a) The heliostats magically will not reflect U.V., as they absorb it, but reflect visible light.  Nice accomplishment, if you can do it.  However, this will require cleaning vigilance, as Martian dust blowing in the wind will coat that magic mirror, and possibly interfer with the magic.  That does not rule it out, but it is best to understand what the maintenance burdens are.
b) Flourencence.  Either the interior of the shed is flourescent, or a specific reflector immediately inside of the shed and in front of the portal will be flourescent.  So if that works then you have an environment inside the shed which has reduce U.V., possibly augmented visible and near infared light, and thermal conditions more favorable to agriculture inside the shed.
Still that is not enough for agriculture.
So I reccomend containerized agriculture inside the shed.  This would be pressurized and sealed terrariums.  So, far my model involves Potatoes, and Mushrooms.  The Mushrooms break down organic wastes, and produce CO2, and the Potatoes engage in photosynthesis.  In addition we hope that the Potatoes and Mushrooms interact at the roots of the Potatoes.  It is not unusual for fungus to connect to the roots of vascular plants, and to have a symbiotic relationship.  In this case we might hope the transfer of nutrients to the Potatoes from the Mushrooms.  However, I do not have enough information to validate this assumption.  It is a hope.
7) Related to #3 would be Chemosynthesis from naturally occuring substances of Mars.
a) Dune Materials reacting with water.
b) Oxygen and CO in the Martian atmpsphere, from photolysis.  (Very small amounts relative to CO2, Nitrogen, and Argon.
c) Other???  One possibility is something like a super saline Antarctica lake which some think maintains a biological process by the reaction of brine with lake bottom soils.  This apparently may produce Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen.  These subtances apparently support a microbial biosphere.  Not at all sure that it would be of a magnitude worth bothering with.  However, I like to try to be complete when I work towards options.

That's enough for now.


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#19 2018-04-09 20:40:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

It may be no surprise that as I have stated I will restrict myself to this spot, until some reason may appear to change my mind.

I will wake this thread up periodically if I am allowed by a new post on occasion.

This time I actually want to discuss some potential flaws with some of the things I have recommended.  For instance over time SpaceNut made me aware of Hexavalent Chromium toxic nature.  I am also aware that Carbon Monoxide is a poison.

So, handing dune materials and atmospheric separations offer risk potential as well as reward potential.

A bit of reading has made me aware that some microbes can possibly "Breath" Hexavalent Chromium, reducing it from it's most toxic form to less toxic types.  This in my opinion might be assisted by adding Hydrogen and perhaps CO to a isolated pool where dune materials might be added to have the Hexavalent Chromium reduced.  I really am not sure about the results, but it seems to me that if substances are added to this isolated pool, favorable results could occur.  I would add dune materials, and Martian atmosphere to start with.  In addition if needed Hydrogen.  This may not be needed.  While the Chromium may be highly Oxidized, the other substances in the dune materials may actually absorb Oxygen in the presence of a wet environment.  I don't know.  If they do, for instance if the Iron in the dune materials would rust, then that will produce Hydrogen automatically.

I anticipate that salts will result, and it may be possible to extract metals and other chemicals from the salts.

One thing I am fairly sure of is if you keep compressing Martian atmosphere into a pool of water, and so dissolve it's component gasses, and if a sufficient source of Hydrogen is presence, and if a microbial community can tolerate the environment, the Carbon from the Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide will be absorbed into microbial organisms.  I anticipate that the Oxygen from the Martial atmosphere will also be breathed by the microbial community.  And this will leave behind some gasses we may desire to have in concentration.  More or less Argon and Nitrogen.  So, that is a way to potentially get concentrations of those gasses by degassing the waters from the pool.  Or if you like, if you keep shoving Martian atmosphere into the pool, those gasses (And some other trace gasses) will eventually saturate to the point that they bubble up out of the pool anyway.

So, maybe a source of chemistry this proposed isolated pool.

But my preference would be to reduce the amount of CO2 going in, and increase the amounts of O2, CO, N2, and Argon, (Other) going into the pool.

Reverse osmosis might be a prior step to provide for this.

In the case of O2 and CO, very minor gasses, I have considered some type of hemoglobin method, but I have very poor skills to really understand if that can be done and how to do it.  I have a few vague hunches.

Other methods may exist.

For instance for the O2?  What if you had a fast spinning plate like an old fashioned record on a record player and if that plate was magnetic, might paramagnetism attract the O2 at night, and might a concentrate accumulate on the plate, and might the centrifugal force cause the concentrate to fling off of the plate?  Might you then collect that flinging gas mixture with a supposed O2 concentration?

Others who were here but not currently here suggested cooling the atmosphere and by various methods doing separations.  For instance compress the atmosphere and cool it sufficiently that it might be a liquid presumably with some of the minority gasses (N2, Argon???) bubbling out of the solution, and very minor gasses feared to be dissolved in the solution (O2 and CO???).  Then the use of a centrifuge to extract the O2 and CO.

I am not proposing a certain and proven method, I am trying to stimulate imaginations.  There is a lot of young grey matter out there and these are seeds (Or infections smile ) That I put here for them.  Obviously I have hopes that they might carry the ball over the goal line, where I cannot yet (Or probably ever).

I am done, and it did no harm that I can detect.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-09 21:00:58)


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#20 2018-04-09 21:17:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 14,079

Re: General System

I do recal the topics of the use of soils on Mars containing "Hexavalent Chromium" to which a machine that puts the soils into a container that as you meantion hydrogen perioxide would allow for it to become more neutral. There also is adding sugar https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4076 … ith-sugar/ and even using UV to bring the process even further into bringing the soil to a non harmful condition for use.
H2O2 will reduce some oxidants such as hexavalent chromium (under acid conditions) and hypochlorite (under alkaline conditions).
Reduction of hexavalent chromium in wastewater using hydrogen peroxide
One could seperate the soils once wet from the solution containing the chromium and use electrolosis to recapture the water and to deposit the chromium in the chamber for later use.
https://admin.publichealth.lacounty.gov … romium.pdf

http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/blog/ … ctrolyzers

Learning how to seperate out what we want from each chemical interation means we are not wasting the efforts for later use.

We need to do research on baterial use but I do not see why not as that would require less energy to process....

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#21 2018-04-10 07:24:46

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Yes Chromium, one use heliostats?  Pointed at high temp solar cells?

......

And here is something I think you should adore:
https://www.treehugger.com/biomimicry/r … hesis.html
Quote:

Rheticus project teams German giants to harvest CO2 in artificial photosynthesis

rheticus-technical-photosynthesis.jpg.860x0_q70_crop-smart.jpg

It may be perfect for Mars.

While their process will be clean and require electrolysis, I also want to explore the possibility of electroplating CO and O2 from the Martian atmosphere.  This will not be splitting CO2, but to capture the already existing CO and O2 and concentrating it.  I hope that this will be a less energy intensive method.  The reason is Photolysis has already split the CO2.  Now what is needed is a separating method.

I am thinking two spinning plates with an air gap, one charged (-), the other (+).  The Martian atmosphere is somewhat conductive I understand.  I do not say this will work, rather I want to find out if it works.  It might also be an air compressor as what flows off the edge of the plates will have inertia, and if you have a scoop to capture it you may get a bit of compression.

If it works I do not expect the concentrations to be pure, but they be beneficiated to be useful in some way.

I will be commenting on this some more some time, after I get done with an appointment.

However pile in on this if you like.  I think it is a biggie for Mars.

......

It is no surprise to me that the Germans are not aiming for foods, as they have plenty of foods.  They are likely not aiming for Oxygen either, but there it is.  They are aiming for fuels and chemical feed stocks.

I say food also.

I mention Quorn once again, although it needs Gluclose and some other things.  Rather, I would be looking for something fermented, not Quorn, but Quorn shows that it can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn
Quote:
220px-Quorn-different-forms.jpg
Or sometimes it looks like hamburger.

More:
https://www.quorn.us/products

Last edited by Void (2018-04-10 07:37:55)


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#22 2018-04-10 11:50:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Other minipulations:
I hope that the centrifugal electroplating magnetic separator might work.
I would indeed put separate charges on the plates (-) and (+).  I would also want to use a magnetic field offset on the outside of the plate which is to gather Oxygen, to displace other gasses and help attract the Oxygen.
So, perhaps three or more outputs from the device.  For now I will speculate on three.
1) A flow which has increased Oxygen.
2) A flow which has increased CO.
3) The bulk in the middle which I hope will primarily be a mixture of CO2, Nitrogen, and Argon.
What to do with #3?  Well, you could just let it go, and it might recover some of the energy which you used to spin it.
But my big hope is to involve dune materials, to get a benificial process.  More of that later.
......
For #1 if it works at all, then I would expect a reduction of the percentages of gasses relative to O2.  This mix could be processed perhaps cryrogenically.  If compressed and cooled sufficiently the CO2 could possibly be condensed either to a liquid or solid.  Also, it might be possible to instead use reverse osmosis.  I presume the mebranes would block the CO2.  But there might still be a toxic level of CO remnant.  So, then I would subject the mix to a situation where microbes that are specific to digesting CO would act upon it.  In doing so they would also consume a small amount of the Oxygen.  If that were done, then again, perhaps a cryrogenic process subsequent to that would generate liquid Nitrogen, Argon, and perhaps liquid air suitable to be breathed by humans, if warmed up sufficiently.
......
For #2, if it works at all, then I would expect a concentration of CO, and a relative reduction of CO2, Argon, and O2.
But to do the anerobic process to generate chemical feedstocks, and perhaps food, first the Oxygen remnant would need to be burned off by microbes that are aerobic.  Then the CO enriched mix could be processed by the methods of the previous post to generate chemical feedstocks, and maybe even food.
......
For #3, I have quite a lot of ideas.
These "Tailings" might be discarded, but having already slightly compressed them, I see no reason to not try to make something of them.
I have speculated on bodies of water.  Both fresh and cold, or salty and stratified.  (Stratified would be like Antarctic hypersaline lakes).
In either case I want to consider "Dune Materials".  I have no certainty, but suspect that they being made of basalt primarily, and haveing had limited contact with liquid water, will decay in the presence of liquid water yielding salts, Hydrogen, and if manipulated properly, clays.  All of these potential materials to be useful for human purposes on Mars.
.
So, since the mix #3 could already be slightly compressed, push it into the waters of a reservoir either fresh and less stratified, or salty and very stratified.
A small amount of Carbonic Acid then?
And what of the dune materials?  Under what circumstances can you encourage an abiotic generation of biotic chemicals?
Can you disolve minerals from the dune materials, and then cause them to percipitate in a manner you would consider useful?

This might help:
"Dissolution and secondary mineral precipition in basalts due to reactions with carbonic acid".
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 17JB014019
However the dune materials are said to contain Iron, Titanium, and Chromium.  Granted also that we might hope to extract other things, and if really skillful to generate clays to make things from.

My objectives are:
1) Absorb the CO2 into a biological process.  Provide Hydrogen for that process either from decaying dune materials, or provide the Hydrogen manually from Electrolysis of water.  (Less desirable.
2) Disolve useful minerals into a carbonated water mix, and then cause favorable precipitions of those minerals either by degassing the mix, or using biological agencies.  Some shellfish might isolate "limestone".  Another example, it is thought that the early Earth provided hemitite to us from oceans with a special disolved iron that micro-organisms separated out into a deposite.
3) Energy.  If you have a cold water mix with CO2 disolved into it, you may be able to heat it up and allow the CO2 to vent off, turning a turbine.  (Or develop something more sophisticated that that).
So, that's where I am heading.  I want to identify the opportunities that Mars has to offer, and figure out how to use them, rather than constaintly trying to bend the nature of Mars to be like that of Earth.
Manipulations of terraforming such as greenhouses (Standard type concept), have their place, but to really be Martians, humans are going to need to be adaptive.  That is if you are from the tropics, and move to high latitudes you have choices:
1) Just go naked and freeze to death.  Hope that in multiple generations surviving descendants can become adapted to the cold (Sasquach?).
2) Manipulate the environment so that you can be naked that is build a house with heating.  Well, of course to heat it and to feed yourself you must eventually go outside and get the means.
3) Make clothing, fire, shelter, and tools appropriate to the environment.
So I am vering in the direction of #3, for Mars environments.

......

Completing the process would be to get a mixture of Nitrogen and Argon as left over gasses out of #3, I think, after depleting the CO2.

Then if desired cryogenics to separate the two.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-10 13:30:05)


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#23 2018-04-11 18:42:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

https://phys.org/news/2018-04-biologica … house.html
Quote:

Biologically inspired membrane purges coal-fired smoke of greenhouse gases
April 11, 2018 by Neal Singer, Sandia National Laboratories

A biologically inspired membrane intended to cleanse carbon dioxide almost completely from the smoke of coal-fired power plants has been developed by scientists at Sandia National Laboratories and the University of New Mexico.

The patented work, reported recently in Nature Communications, has interested power and energy companies that would like to significantly and inexpensively reduce emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the most widespread greenhouse gases, and explore other possible uses of the invention.
The memzyme meets the Department of Energy's standards by capturing 90 percent of power plant carbon dioxide production at a relatively low cost of $40 per ton.
Researchers term the membrane a "memzyme" because it acts like a filter but is near-saturated with an enzyme, carbonic anhydrase, developed by living cells over millions of years to help rid themselves of carbon dioxide efficiently and rapidly.
"To date, stripping carbon dioxide from smoke has been prohibitively expensive using the thick, solid, polymer membranes currently available," says Jeff Brinker, a Sandia fellow, University of New Mexico regents' professor and the paper's lead author.
"Our inexpensive method follows nature's lead in our use of a water-based membrane only 18 nanometers thick that incorporates natural enzymes to capture 90 percent of carbon dioxide released. (A nanometer is about 1/700 of the diameter of a human hair.) This is almost 70 percent better than current commercial methods, and it's done at a fraction of the cost."
Coal power plants are one of the United States' largest energy producers, but they have been criticized by some for sending more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than any other form of electrical power generation. Still, coal burning in China, India and other countries means that U.S. abstinence alone is not likely to solve the world's climate problems.
But, says Brinker, "maybe technology will."
The device's formation begins with a drying process called evaporation-induced self-assembly, first developed at Sandia by Brinker 20 years ago and a field of study in its own right.

Enzymatic liquid membrane design and mechanism of carbon dioxide capture and separation. The Sandia/University of New Mexico membrane is fabricated by formation of 8-nanometer diameter mesopores. Using atomic layer deposition and oxygen …more
The procedure creates a close-packed array of silica nanopores designed to accommodate the carbonic anhydrase enzyme and keep it stable. This is done in several steps. First, the array, which may be 100 nanometers long, is treated with a technique called atomic layer deposition to make the nanopore surface water-averse or hydrophobic. This is followed by an oxygen plasma treatment that overlays the water-averse surface to make the nanopores water-loving or hydrophilic, but only to a depth of 18 nanometers. A solution of the enzyme and water spontaneously fill up and are stabilized within the water-loving portion of the nanopores. This creates membranes of water 18 nanometers thick, with a carbonic anhydrase concentration 10 times greater than aqueous solutions made to date.

1-biologically.jpg

I am rather excited about this post.  If it can translate to Mars, it implies that you can purge 90% of the CO2 from an atmospheric mixture, leaving behind a mix reduced of CO2 and enriched of Nitrogen, Argon, O2, CO, and perhaps trace gasses.

I also see that it might be possible to have stages of the device.  That is one, two, three steps of the same thing, reducing the CO2 content by 90% each time optimally, that is if it works on Mars and works in the manner I presume.

I will have further commentary shortly on this.  Very excited.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-11 18:43:12)


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#24 2018-04-11 19:19:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

OK, I am going to just post again instead of adding to the previous post.

OK, if the device will work on Mars as I might wish, we might capture two mixtures caused by a separation of the standard Martian atmosphere.
1) A 99% CO2 + 1% other gasses mix.
2) A roughly 10% of the CO2 going to the second mix, and most of the N2, Argon, O2, and CO going to the second mix.
......
What if we do a serial operation, and do the same thing to mix #2 that we did to the standard Martian atmosphere?
Presumably a further separation of a very CO2 dominated mix, from a more beneficiated mix with significantly less CO2, but retaining most of the N2, Argon, O2, and CO going to the second mix.
......
And what if we did it a third time?
I think we could hope that at that point some really useful outputs of N2, Argon, O2, CO would occur, after three sequential cleansings.
......
For the three enriched CO2 outputs, I would reccommend a capture method to facilitate utility of CO2.  In my case I will suggest disolving it into a polder/pond.  Cold water can retain significant CO2.  Purposes for this might be to disolve minerals from fine grained basalt dune dust, (For later precipitations), and also to vent the gas under heat to generate electriciy, and also to port the CO2 when conventient to a liquification method.  The liquid CO2 to power robots, such as Heliostats.  That is liquid CO2 will most likely vaporize under some typical Martian ambient conditions.  We could bias that process by protecting the liquid CO2 from heat (Sunlight), or injecting heat (Sunlight).  So in a pneumatic motor method to drive robots, and of course Heliostats will be robots that can be perfected and mass produced.  Under those conditions giving very valuable service, and once modified to types that are typical requiring very little additional human effort.  Just a tool so well understood and manufactured that it will serve and provide.
......
As for the other stream presumed to be enriched in N2, Argon, O2, and CO, I reccommend trying to implement the mechanical "Gill" that I suggested in previous posts.
Inject it to two plates which would have a ideal gap between them.  One plate to be (-), the other to be (+) in electrical charge.  One is to attract O2 (If it works) the other to attract CO (If it works).  This would be an electroplating process.
The plates spinning would provide centrifugal force to expell the collected gasses from the attracting plates.  The plates may simply spin in the same direction together, or more troublsome spin in opposite directions.  Experimentation would be required to find what promotes what, in accordance to desired results.
Collector/Separators positioned well might collect three gas streams.  One enriched in O2,  one enriched in CO, and in the middle whatever mix is prominent.  Most likely a CO2/N2/Argon mix with a smaller proportion of O2 and CO.
So lets call those:
1) O2 enriched.
2) CO enriched.
3) Other. (CO2, N2, Argon, Traces of other gasses).
......
For the O2, an intense magnetic field may be considered to assist in attacting the O2 to the desired spinning plate.
......
To further purify mix #1 we should disolve it into a polder/pond and add Hydrogen and microbes that will consume any residual CO2 and CO.
To further purify mix #2, similarly disolve it into a polder/pond, and let microbes that are aerobic consume any remaining Oxygen.
To bring #3 to usefullness, disolve it into a polder/pond and add Hydrogen in hopes that any residual CO2, CO, and O2 will be consumed.  After that it shoud dominantly consist of  mix of N2 and Argon.  So then if you have a need to separate those two gasses, use cryrogenics.
......
That's plenety for now.
Noting that if the methods suggested may work then humans may breath O2 plucked out of the Martian atmosphere.
Also CO provided will allow the production of chemicals needed, and perhaps food, per previous posts.
And Nitrogen and Argon might be extracted into various mixes.
And the bulk CO2 may be suitable to fulfill the needed animation of robots, including heliostats.
The bulk CO2 may also assist in extracting minerals from regolith such as fine grained sand dune materials.

Done smile


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#25 2018-04-13 11:41:03

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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,675

Re: General System

Heliostats.  Relatively simple robots where if you create a model 1, 2, 3......  And then can mass produce them you may attain means of material existence needed in harsh environments such as Mars.

I will also be revisiting cycling spaceships, between the orbits of Venus and Mercury, and their relationship with a ring of such near the orbit of Mars.  My intuition tells me that we would be able to have a 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 or 1 to 4  or so on.....  timing relationship in many places in the solar system.

The point being that with solar cells that tolerate very high temperatures, then the orbit between Mercury and Venus makes more sense.
Mercury being a logical source of silicate materials, Venus a source of CO2 and Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4?).

Humans could make a lot of that.

And if we could create massive amounts of "Land" with the resources of Venus and Mercury, for humans to occupy, and by that method also support a similar, method in the vicinity of Mars, using heliostats, then we stand chances of passing on the ability of the human race to progress to becoming an interstellar species.

That is if you have enough human resources, with the accumulation of inventions of technology, and procurement of available resources, your chances of success in being interstellar are strongly enhanced.

So, it may be the appropriate objective.


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