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#26 2018-04-13 19:50:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,010

Re: General System

Heliostat for mars:

The solar constant of Mars 589 watts per square meter. Using the triple junction on mars solar cells of 33%  http://www.spectrolab.com/pv/support/Ed … script.pdf
The rovers on mars are using this product and get about 400whr of energy for a mars day and based on 4 hr of collecting means 100w panels for a meter possibly. that is about 300 watts that is hitting the mars surface.

300 Watt/Square Meter = 95.0995 BTU/Hour Square Foot so 100 btu is close enough...

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/wn … ersion.pdf

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

A BTU is the amount of energy it takes to heat a pound of water by 1 degree Farenhiet.

https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … elsius.htm

The high temperature panels were able to widthstand 800'C which is 1472'F which is 1472 btu or 4629w/m^2 or just or 15.5 reflective panels to rise the heat and light energy that we can recieve per panel to its max output.

Now if I can find the electrical and thermal conversion information.....

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#27 2018-04-15 20:15:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,010

Re: General System

alt43.gif

For the do it yourselfer that wants to build from insitu materials here is a site that makes them in just about any shape and size.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Co … rating.htm

tower.jpg

http://www.alternative-energy-tutorials … ent-page-1

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#28 2018-04-16 14:09:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

The objective would be to get the most for the least.  That is to find a method that least consumes critical materials such as Copper and Aluminum, ect., but still delivers a value added service, that is an energy bonus method.

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#29 2018-04-20 09:28:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I choose to propose a revision of what is the "Inner Solar System" and the "Outer Solar System".

I feel that Jupiter, its Moons, and the Trojans and Apollo's belong in the inner solar system, and from Saturn out, is the outer solar system.

My feeling is that most likely the Trojans, and Apollo's will contain a mixture of materials, where silicates/metals are available along with many critical lighter materials up to Hydrogen.

Callisto will contain silicates and metals at or near it's surface.  Ganymede may also, but I am not sure.  Of course Io will contain silicates, but those will be very hard to access due to Io being deep in Jupiter's gravity well, and of course radiation.

Other than rocky asteroids which from distant times were displaced to orbits near Saturn, and objects further out, it will be hard to access silicates, and metals as abundantly at Saturn, its solar orbit, and orbits further out, with rare exceptions.

Enceladus might be a rare exception.  With an underground ocean, it is possible that it could be mined much more easily than other objects in the outer solar system.  And yes I am aware of a possible conflict with the potential of life.  Still it is true, it might provide metals and silicates.

Other things that matter, include that the use of heliostats to concentrate sunlight may be useful out to the orbit of Jupiter/Trojans/moons.

Not as much in the outer solar system.

......

So, after Mars is on line, if that proves possible, actually, I think the spread of activity to all places in the inner solar system.

A maybe exception being Enceladus/Titan.  Maybe out there also.

......

While there are undefined potentials for Mars, I actually am becoming very interested in Mars orbiting habitats.  Not to ignore Mars at all though.  Mars should become a source of resources heavy and light materials, to bring to orbit, and use along with the materials of it's moons Phobos and Demos.

No need to raise children in .38 g.

Use magnetic fields to shield these orbital habitats.  In fact perhaps shield the entirety of Mars with magnetism artificial.

If the orbital habitats leak, so what.  We hope that the gravitation of Mars along with a magnetic shield will help to recapture these lost molecules to the Martian atmosphere.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-20 09:42:29)

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#30 2018-04-22 08:41:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

OK, Louis provided a interesting video about BFR.

It turns out it was followed by this one about Blue Origin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZSxSvxZUnM

We get the impression that Jeff Bezos is a lesser creature than Elon Musk,  to my mind it turns out that they are a complementary creatures.

And between the two of them and other up and coming entities I may get what I want.

Elon Musk has made statements before about things he later acted on.
For instance, the "Boring Company".

They are trying to recover Fairings, so I actually believe that they will try to do this next thing.
It may be something like ULA's recovery method plus Fairing recovery.

Lately he has talked about trying to recover the 2nd stage for Falcon 9 (Maybe Falcon Heavy also?).
He said the idea was to use a party balloon and a bouncy house.

April 1, Elon spoke about forming a "Mooning Company", to create "A new natural moon for the Earth".  I liked the idea for reasons I will explain, but of course it was half joke at least.  And I sort of fell for it.  Louis straitened me out.  I was pretty sure it was mentioned by him before April 1, but it turns out it was a joke (Maybe).

A actually think SpaceX will do it. (Or something like it).  The reason is, that apparently what Jeff Bezos/Blue Origin intends.  Jeff Bezos has a different intention for accessing space.

His intention apparently is that heavy industry should be moved off from the surface of the Earth, and that the Earth should be a place for light industry, and human occupation.  That therefore will support the notion of orbital factories for heavy industry using solar energy, and not using Earth energy.  Synthetic gravity would most likely be employed in part, along with zero g.

So, between the two of them I get what I want.

......

I have come to the conclusion that Mars should be regarded as a source of resources.  Some to be used in;
1) Martian Orbit.
2) Martian Solar Orbit.
3) Earth/Moon locations.
4) Possibly Mercury/Venus locations.

......

Where Elon Musk/SpaceX primarily adjusts it's reach to get to Mars, and it's business model for BFR to engage in profit opportunities between here and there.

Blue Origin/Jeff Bezos appears to have the Moon as the primary furthest reach.  With the primary intention of building "Land" for heavy industry in the Earth/Moon system.

The two will most likely end up as "Frenemy Entities".

ULA and others will likely participate also.

So Jeff Bezos apparently wants to make an Amazon like delivery system to send materials to the Moon.  SpaceX intends to land BFR on the Moon.  This could be complementary.

That is BFR could deliver some materials to the Moon, and transport lunar rocks to LEO.

Someone, Blue Origins(?) could deliver robots to the Moon to do things with telepresence.  The operators could be in the deep space gateway, or on the Lunar surface, or in some cases on Earth itself.

......

So, BFR will refuel with a tanker Earth>LEO repeatedly.

But why not get rocks from the Moon, let scientists look them over, slice off samples, and then let heavy industry process the bulk into parts.  Oxygen, Metals, Ceramics, Slag (To become mineral wool for various purposes).

***Also, a dust to use to cool the Earth off with in a controlled Nuclear/Asteroid impact winter fashion.  Thus escape the claimed problems of global warming.

......

So, OK BFR gets its Oxygen from the Moon, that then does not have to be lifted from the surface of the Earth.
What about Carbon?

Well if BFR establishes a Mars settlement, perhaps Carbon from the Martian atmosphere may be an exportable product.

Two methods to access it.  Get it from the surface and BFR it to orbit.  Or, if you can capture it from the Martian Exosphere then that might be the way.  As I have said, I think that much of the family life on Mar will actually be likely to occur in orbit.  Mars will be a recreational spot, and a resource source, for a solar economy.

Carbon could be exported as: Carbon itself, Carbon Parts, Tar, kept very cold, Resins.

......

From Mars we might expect that eventually humans will spread to the asteroid belt, and the Trojan/Apollo/Jupiter system, and perhaps beyond.

What about Mercury and Venus?

I am ok with floating cities on Venus.  In fact I am also very ok with high temperature robots that access the surface of Venus.  However those technologies are yet to come.  Even after accessing Venus, it will likely take 50 years or more to develop such capabilities.

But prior to doing that the question of life will need to be answered.  It appears that there are swarms of objects in the atmosphere of Venus about the size of bacteria.  Also the CO is missing presumably because some process is consuming it.  Biological or not.

Most Earth life or pseudo life (Viruses) could not make it in that environment.  But perhaps Viruses from Earth could adapt to infect such organisms if they exist.  Most likely if they exist, Earth and Venus life are related.

Some models of early Venus have it being Earth like while the Earth was still outside the habitable zone (Too cold?).
And this link proposes that any life in the atmosphere of Venus could come to Earth.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale … 525390.stm

So, in my opinion at the very least we should search for such life, and if we find it carefully study it before we venture to use Venus itself.(If we venture to use Venus).

But I might still support extracting materials from the Exosphere of Venus.  Particularly Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon, if that is possible.

......

A slice of a Dyson Sphere >Venus<>Mercury>Inward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

These high temperature solar cells (Which SpaceNut thinks could be made from Lunar, and I presume Mercury materials), should be well suited to operate in this environment: ">Venus<>Mercury>Inward towards the sun"


https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

I am not so sure if it would make sense to lift Oxygen from Mercury to fill "Built Land" (That is synthetic gravity machines).

Rather I would propose that the metal and ceramic portions be extracted from Mercury, and the devices built in orbit would use solar propulsion (Most likely solar sail with Photons, or the Solar Wind), to travel to Venus, do a ballistic capture to Venus, and get filled with Oxygen, Carbon, and Nitrogen.

What about Hydrogen?  Well it appears that our Moon captures it from the sun.  I presume that Mercury will as well.  So if the water for the "Land" is not to come from elsewhere, I presume that the devices manufactured in orbit may have water in them before they travel to Venus.

After being filled from the atmosphere of Venus, then this land might migrate using solar sailing to places in the Mercury/Venus solar orbits domain.

This would be a very energy rich place, and also the best place to use solar propulsion.

So a slice of a Dyson sphere.

Perhaps with this and the habitation of the domains of Earth, Mars, and Jupiter, a solar economy with the power to do interstellar missions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-22 09:45:37)

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#31 2018-04-22 18:22:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

OK, a simple maybe will work item.

What if you had a craft that orbited Venus and that craft had a magnetic field that you could modulate?  Could you even entertain doing a square wave with it, a sine wave, or pulse in either direction?

Yes, this is half baked.

So a magnetic craft orbiting Venus.  The solar wind would push it.  If orbiting away from the sun it should add speed to the crafts orbit.  If orbiting towards the sun the solar wind should make it slow down.  (Venus does not have a significant geomagnetic field).

What if that magnetic field dipped into the interface where the solar wind impacts the upper atmosphere of Venus?  Could you cause a magnetic reconnection, and steal some of the atmosphere of Venus?  Of course lifting atmosphere out of the atmospheric envelope of Venus would lower the orbit of your craft.

To compensate could you turn off or subdue the magnetic field when the craft was traveling towards the sun, and inflate it to maximum when it was traveling away from the sun?

I am presuming most likely that this magnetic field will be sponsored by solar power and technology.

How you get the captured plasma to calm down and become atmospheric gasses is another issue to solve.

But I want Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon.

I want it for the "Land" (Synthetic Gravity Machines) created from the rocky body of Mercury.  I want all of this for a slice of a Dyson Sphere, which I think will give the human race enough energy to sponsor interstellar missions.

Still quite a lot to test and solve.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-22 18:25:52)

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#32 2018-04-23 17:42:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

OK,

So SpaceX manages to access the surface of Mars, and refuel.

Truth is we do not honestly know what to do about what comes next.  We certainly don't know how children will grow up on Mars, what problems may occur.  And we don't know even how an adult human will respond to prolonged exposure to Martian gravity, and the life support methods that necessarily must be used to keep humans alive on Mars, and so on.

It is really a enhanced "Hail Mary", we are just going to do it and get a bloody nose and skinned knees mentality.  Well, as bad as that sounds I will support it.  But if it goes badly, (As I think is very likely), then we need a reasonable plan "B".  We don't want to just go home crying and give up.

So SpaceX is our plan "A" it would appear, but I say that we can draft Jeff Bezos and Mr. Branson as plan "B".

They state that they are more interested in preserving and enhancing the Earth.  Well having done that, then we can consider incorporating what they do into a plan "B" Mars policy, in my opinion.

I think plan "B" will be much better than "Plan 9 from outer space" in any case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space

So, it seems real that Jeff Bezos and Co. intend to put heavy industry for Earth into space orbit.  I interpret this to indicate synthetic gravity machines in some cases.

You should not need a crystal ball to know where I am going with Plan "B".  This then forces the human race to access the solar system from a process of synthetic gravity machines, if it proves unwise to try to adapt humans to alien planets.  Do I have proof that this will be satisfactory?  No....  However it is Plan "B".  We ain't gonna give up just over a bloody nose and skinned knees.  We will have to try it.  If it works in Earth orbit, then it ought to work in Mars orbit, or Ceres orbit, or Jupiter orbit, or Venus orbit, or Mercury orbit.

Radiation?  Well, bulk mass and/or magnetic methods I guess. 

For Mars there is Phobos and Demos for bulk mass, and there may be Carbon and Hydrogen from Mars.  Magnetic fields?  Well in the case where humans cannot live prolonged in that environment, then could we hope to harvest some of the atmosphere of Mars, using magnetic fields.  Harvest it to these synthetic gravity machines?

See....   I'm here if you get a bloody nose and skinned knees.  I'm your friend.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-23 18:06:04)

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#33 2018-04-24 19:33:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

Lunar Gateway:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … spartandhp

I'm pleased.

OK, in other parts, there is hand wringing over CO2.
I just say fix the problem.  Don't get tribal and hateful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fert … le_of_iron

So materials from the Moon could both shade the Earth, and fertilize the Oceans.  Nuclear winter simulation, metal buffering of acidification of oceans, and then capture of CO2 into blooms in the oceans.  And this from the Moon.  But only if we get desperate to cool off the Earth.

......

Peter Zeihan in one his videos predicts loss of ability to grow crops.  Not in North America or most of South America, but South Asia, Africa, Russia, China, ect.

Fertility of the Oceans might help that problem.

Also I think that this or things like it, might help as well.

https://phys.org/news/2018-04-ray-solar-fuel.html

So, a Hydrogen source.  Elsewhere recently I have described a system that can harvest 90% of the CO2 from a smoke stack.

Have that and have the Hydrogen, and I think you could ferment food.

Bingo:
https://www.novonutrients.com/technology
Quote:

NovoNutrients employs a natural fermentation process to capture and convert CO2 and other forms of waste carbon into animal feed. The process is similar to those used in producing other fermented food products like tofu, beer, wine, cheese, yogurt, and yeast. During fermentation, a consortium of naturally occurring, non-GMO, single-cell microorganisms works symbiotically to fix capture and use carbon dioxide, converting it into organic building blocks for growth and reproduction. The microorganisms are chemoautotrophs, meaning that they can produce complex organic compounds like proteins, fats, and carbohydrates from simple, inorganic ingredients like CO2 and hydrogen. After fermentation, the microbes are harvested, dried, pelletized and packaged into a high protein, fish-free feed (F3) ingredient suitable for aquaculture and other forms of animal feed.

But of course people who think of living on Mars would never have a look at something like this as far as I can see on this web site.

Instead we will just wring our hands and go down to our reptilian brains.  That should work well.

And as far as I am concerned humans will eat this "Animal Feed" as some type of creative food additive, (Think 3D food printing), rather than starve.  That will be true on Earth, Mars, and other places.

Of course for the Earth, you could take human fecal emissions and process them further by adding Hydrogen and organisms to that.  That should yield Methane.  Then all you have to do is extract the nutrients from the remnant, and then dump the Carbon containing remainder into the deep ocean.

But as I said, if that's not enough then cool the Earth off with Iron bearing Moon dust, and also fertilize the Oceans, make more algae, and make more fish.  Some of the organic matter will be sequestered on the bottom of the Ocean I believe.

So, what's wrong with winning the game instead of submitting to blood drinking bureaucrats?

I think a stable fed population will facilitate the extension of the human race into the solar system.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-24 20:07:08)

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#34 2018-04-25 18:53:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I suppose I can put this here.  Sort of a medical issue which could help with cancer and aging, which are problems everywhere, but also will be significant problems in space.  I am sure that in a General System, if you can be rid of most cancer more easily, and can extend the healthspan of humans in space that will be a very good thing.

https://phys.org/news/2018-04-long-soug … aging.html
Quote:

Long-sought structure of telomerase paves way for new drugs for aging, cancer

If they can, if I understand correctly, for cancer they will try to turn off telomerase if they can to stop it growing.

Most cancers have their ability to produce telomerase turned on (Not all, some grow a different way I think).

Because when telomerase was discovered it was noted that cancer makes it, it was feared that if we used telomerase on normal cells to exceed the hayflick limit, it would cause cancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayflick_limit

However, many scientists working on aging think that is not true.

If they can make drugs for either prohibiting telomerase in the case of cancers,

or, promoting it in the case of excessive aging, I would expect the experiments to first be for Cancer of course, and also for Progeria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progeria

......

The article I attached supposes that our cells (Except the germ line), have the Hayflick limit to help prevent cancer.

However I have seen other theories that for evolution to work well it pays to kill off the old people at some age.  Otherwise the species is less adaptable to change.  However, we are not anymore simply waiting for change to cause the species to evolve.

......

I have seen different opinions about how to handle this.

One supposes that you just use telomerase in a blanket manner on all cells, and they will all actually tend to be healthy, and not get cancer.  This idea supposes that cells that reach the Hayflick limit are prone to becoming senescent cells and sometimes cancer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_senescence

Senescent cells cause inflammation and other problems for aging people. 

One possible treatment is to remove them.  However if you don't have enough of that type of cell anymore then that is a problem.

One treatment for that would be to take some stem cells, treat them with telomerase outside the body, and then inject them into the body, replacing the cells deficient in numbers.

However if they can design a drug to apply telomerase, it is possible that the senescent cells will have their telomeres lengthened and will work properly again.

But yes they need to characterize the dangers of cancer if they do these treatments.

......

Obviously if they can treat cancer and aging (Premature from the space environment), and normal aging, this will have great value to humans both on Earth and in the wider solar system.

......

Just felt like posting something with positive potential on the site.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-25 19:15:29)

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#35 2018-04-26 07:58:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

Blue Origin again:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … moon-base/

The Blue Moon is supposed to be capable of delivering supplies to the Moon with a lander using methods of the New Shepard being placed on the New Glen.

The article says they want to partner with Nasa.  Have to wonder, if SpaceX manages to be able to land BFR on the Moon, if Nasa should even bother creating a lander for the Moon.

I am guessing that if Blue Origin eventually builds the New Armstrong, that will include the capability of a crewed landing on the Moon.

Nice stuff if the looters don't succeed in taking SpaceX and Blue Origin down.  There has been quite a bit of hostile rustling in the underbrush against Musk, and the interests of Bezos ever since SpaceX launched Falcon Heavy.

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#36 2018-04-26 16:49:20

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,486

Re: General System

From what I have read/seen Blue Origin have a better rocket than Space X.  Everyone might be happy if Space X focus on Mars and NASA/Blue Origin focus on Mars.  Bezos apparently is obsessed with creating orbital civilisations, hence his lack of interest in Mars.

Void wrote:

Blue Origin again:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … moon-base/

The Blue Moon is supposed to be capable of delivering supplies to the Moon with a lander using methods of the New Shepard being placed on the New Glen.

The article says they want to partner with Nasa.  Have to wonder, if SpaceX manages to be able to land BFR on the Moon, if Nasa should even bother creating a lander for the Moon.

I am guessing that if Blue Origin eventually builds the New Armstrong, that will include the capability of a crewed landing on the Moon.

Nice stuff if the looters don't succeed in taking SpaceX and Blue Origin down.  There has been quite a bit of hostile rustling in the underbrush against Musk, and the interests of Bezos ever since SpaceX launched Falcon Heavy.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#37 2018-04-26 18:07:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,010

Re: General System

Orbital civilization is the way to create a funding gravy train on the launches for resupply, launches for continued growth of the orbital platform, as well as for a growing that wants and desire to have more.
Keep the price to get there down to what can be afforded by the general public and watch out for a boom town to spring up in orbit.

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#38 2018-04-26 21:03:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I am very pleased with all of this myself.

This is good: (Nasa > Moon)
https://www.space.com/40417-nasa-deep-s … -moon.html

Near Earth Orbit asteroid survey/mining:
https://www.aerospace-technology.com/ne … satellite/

......

I like the contrast between SpaceX and Blue Origins.  (I also like Vulcan)

Anyway, as I see it Musk/SpaceX set their sights on Mars, and is now discovering points in between that they might also do in order to pay for BFR and such.

Blue Origin is going the other way around, from the bottom up.  That is Sheppard as sub orbital, Glen as Orbital, and then perhaps we hope Armstrong for the Moon.  Then I see no reason they would not go yet another step.

So, they are likely to converge.

Blue Origins is the tortoise, but I don't think that SpaceX will loose.  I expect them all to win.

......

I sort of live in two cities.  It takes me hours to travel between them, and sometimes I have the strangest thinking while I do it.
Today was such a day.  I am north now.

I mostly have though of strange things about SpaceX.

Be calm.

What if SpaceX made 3 BFS's.  1) A upper stage to go to Mars.  2) A upper stage to refuel #1.  3) A stripped down upper stage to serve as an in orbit booster for #1? (Stripped down, would indicate no cabins for passengers, no cargo, no nothing except to be a booster).

I have been watching GW give you a good wakeup, and I bet he knows what he is talking about, but what if:

A) You join #1 and #3 together.  I originally thought nose to tail.  Now, I think nose to nose (Sort of).  Offset it so that a strut connects #1 and #3 near the nose but on the upper "Side", so that when you disconnect the strut, and do an aerobrake, you don't have that vulnerable part of the ships skin exposed to the highest heats of re-entry.  Of course #2 tops off the fuel for both #1 and #2.

OOPS! I just realized that they would both have a airlock port near the nose.  Just join them airlock to airlock.  No strut required.

B) (Now I am asking for a slap down, but I will do it anyway).  Suppose  #3 expends almost all of its propellants pushing #1 off towards Mars.  But it might somehow preserve enough to swing back around in an elliptical orbit to do a re-entry to Earth.  Maybe even a swing around the Moon.

Before they separate, #1 + #3 swing around 180 degrees and now #1 fires, perhaps both to help #3 get back to Earth, and also then to send itself towards Mars after separating from #1.

Now maybe you have the resources to do a quicker transfer to Mars and back to Earth.  And by the way the option to bring more equipment mass with you, if you have the space inside the ships.

Truthfully, I am not that comfortable with the notion of sending 4 BFS's to Mars, and expecting all to go well, and to get them refueled and the two crewed ships back to Earth.  I think Murphy's laws apply.

......

I have been watching Elon Musks jokes.  His jokes often have an element of truth in them.  Things he is thinking of doing.  He just likes to start them out silly.

Boring company was one of them.  But now there is a boring company.

Lately:

1) Mooning Company (I know that this was very much April 1 stuff, but Blue Origins it appears does fully intend to be a Mooning company).

* They are already trying to recycle the  falcon fairings (Getting real close to it I think).

2) A party balloon and a bounce house. (To recover 2nd stages).
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/16/elon- … nce-house/

3) Now: "A cyborg dragon":
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-mus … nds-2018-4

Ya, Red Dragon/Cyborg?  Why?  WTHeck?  What to use it for?

Does it have to do with LEO?, Lunar endeavors?, Mars?  Weird stuff.  Head spinning.

......

Now lets get back to the Near Earth Asteroids.

Where SpaceX wants to make revenue from site to site hopping on Earth, launching items to LEO (Including their own broadband internet we hope), and Lunar missions, what about this?

What if BFR could bring machines to orbit which could go retrieve worthwhile Near Earth Asteroids, to an Earth/Moon location?

Maybe with chemical thrusters, or maybe with electrical thrusters.  After all it appears that the Europeans have an ion thruster that can expel Oxygen.

What if you get a NEO to a "Lunar" "L" location and mine the heck out of it.  You get the water, which gives you Hydrogen, you get the Oxygen which you can use in your ion thrusters.  You get the metals and other silicates that you can make things with (Like artificial moons), and you can drop some dust into the Earths atmosphere if you are desperate to correct a climate overheating.

......

Then enter Mars.

If we want to and expect to have huge human presence in orbit of the Earth/Moon, why can't we do the same with Mars?

More land, and if Mars proves to be a tough nut to crack, more options.  Maybe children are raised in orbit for the most part.  Synthetic gravity being presumed to be sufficient for their healthy development.

So, I'm tired.  Have to stop now.

Hope you enjoyed Louis, Spacenut, others.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-26 21:57:52)

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#39 2018-04-27 19:18:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

Alright another notion of what to do with 6 BFS's and some tethers.

I am not going to try to solve for other things, but I think maybe just a bit for the radiation issue, and perhaps quite a lot for the microgravity issue.  (Maybe).

*Note: Somewhere in steps #1, #2, and #3, a Lunar gravity assist might be involved.  Don't know enough to say if it is convenient or possible.

1) I see that their apparently would be and advantage to quicken the journey.  A reduction in radiation damage accumulation by reducing travel time.  I get the sense that this could be done, but not with just one BFS.  So in the previous post I suggested coupling two BFS's together like you might locomotive engines.  The one that serves as a booster loops in a elliptical orbit but does not depart the Earth gravity well.  It loops around and then does an atmospheric capture and then lands.  The one that goes to Mars is boosted, and retains much more fuel to enhance the flexibility of its choices.

2) This will not be necessary for the two BFS's which are for cargo only that go first.
They may include a ground penetrating radar which may characterize the location for landing.  (I am not equipped to say how they will all land near each other.  That is a problem for others.).

3) But, for the two crewed missions in order that they should not be screwed missions, I do suggest consideration of item #1 above.
I note that BFS's refuel tail to tail.  So could you do this:
a) Launch you two crewed BFS's to Mars (With a extra boost or not), pretty close to the same time or if needed, at the same time.
b) After they leave the Earths gravity well, can they rendezvous and join at the tail and then rotate per a baton method per GW?
c) If you want more length, then could you join them by tether?  Just working it out.
d) You approach Mars and uncouple,  each ship does the insane aeroburn, and we hope lands.  They get refueled.  (By whatever method).
e) They head back to Earth.  Couple by the tail again, with or without tethers.  Spin and dry smile
Actually maybe keep the crews fit enough to survive the insane aeroburn to Earth.

???

I much prefer ballistic capture and optional aeroburn from a lower orbit.  But of course we need to be concerned with extended time where greater accumulation of radiation damage to the crew is a big issue.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-27 19:35:41)

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#40 2018-04-28 20:53:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I may possibly bring back the idea of fuel depots, where ships could refuel which was put down pretty hard by a certain moderator a while ago.

No bitter thinking from me, just reviewing the subject per new information.

This: (Depots and some putdown on me)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8058

And this: (This came from the above when I gave up on it.  It includes a semi-cycle spaceship.  After I mention my new reference and discuss it I want to further explore large scale spaceships.  This seems to have been a recent topic elsewhere.)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8137

......

The new topic has to do with asteroid mining and fuel depots.
https://www.space.com/40400-planetary-r … ished.html

Quote:

Asteroid Miners' Arkyd-6 Satellite Aces Big Test in Space

By Mike Wall, Space.com Senior Writer | April 25, 2018 07:17am ET
0  0      MORE

An artist's illustration of Planetary Resources' Arkyd-6 spacecraft in Earth orbit.
Credit: Planetary Resources
Some of Planetary Resources' asteroid-mining tech just passed a major space test.
The Washington-based company's tiny Arkyd-6 satellite has completed all its mission goals in Earth orbit, just three months after lifting off atop an Indian rocket, Planetary Resources representatives said.
"The spacecraft successfully demonstrated its distributed computing system, communications, attitude-control system, power generation and storage with deployable solar arrays and batteries, star tracker and reaction wheels, and the first commercial mid-wave infrared (MWIR) imager operated in space," Planetary Resources President and CEO Chris Lewicki wrote in an update Tuesday (April 24).
Advertisement.

The cereal-box-size Arkyd-6 launched on Jan. 12 atop a Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle, along with several dozen other payloads. The cubesat set up shop in a sun-synchronous polar orbit, where it's been working to prove out technology required for Planetary Resources' next spacecraft, an asteroid prospector known as Arkyd-301.

A photo of a refinery in Algeria captured by the mid-wave infrared (MWIR) imager on Planetary Resources' Arkyd-6 cubesat. The imager can detect water and thermal energy, as the photo shows: The bright spots are thermal signatures of the refinery's flame towers.
Credit: Planetary Resources
The MWIR imager is particularly important to Arkyd-301 development and to the company's overall goals. The instrument can detect water, which is what Planetary Resources will be going after on asteroids, at least at first.
Water can be split into its constituent parts, hydrogen and oxygen, the chief components of rocket fuel. Asteroid mining should therefore lead to the construction and operation of off-Earth propellant depots, which could revolutionize spaceflight and exploration by allowing spaceships to top up their fuel tanks on the go, Planetary Resources representatives and other space-mining advocates have said.

00:5403:4

I was pretty much given the bums rush out the door for suggesting propellant depots for ships to top off their fuel (and Oxygen) on the go.
Maybe my methods were poor.  I really am not sure at this time.

Anyway having noted this prior communication problem where a categorical no was given rather than a mutual attempt at plan modification and problem solving, I drop that point, and go on the content of the statement about "Topping off fuel tanks on the go".  It is a very interesting proposition I think.

The Arkyd-6:
https://www.planetaryresources.com/missions/arkyd-6/
Quotes:

About Arkyd-6
Built in compliance with the 6U CubeSat standard, the Arkyd-6 (A6) includes the core technology that will be used in the company’s asteroid exploration program including a mid-wave infrared sensor, second-generation avionics, power systems, communications, and attitude determination and control systems.

The A6 instrument is a broadband imager spanning 3 to 5 microns within the infrared region of the electromagnetic spectrum. This region is sensitive to the presence of water – including that in hydrated minerals – and thermal energy, allowing it to be used as a tool to search for water on Earth and beyond. In support of our deep space exploration efforts, A6 is a part of Planetary Resources’ research and development work to create an instrument capable of detecting water on near-Earth asteroids.

..

Why Asteroids
Today, space travel is similar to attempting to travel from New York to Los Angeles on a single tank of gas while storing 100% of your consumables in your car. It doesn’t have to be that way.
There are over 16,000 near-Earth asteroids that share a similar orbit to Earth. Asteroids contain the resources that make it possible to fuel and sustain life in space, creating a new paradigm of travel and human presence in space.

Near-Earth Asteroids are Easily Accessible
More accessible than the Moon, near-Earth asteroids are comprised of natural resources that will accelerate humanity’s exploration and development of deep space.

Rich in Resources
There are an estimated two trillion tonnes of water available on near-Earth asteroids. This water can be used to sustain human life and as propellant for spacecraft.
Through an extensive multi-year observational prospecting program, Planetary Resources has selected the most promising, water-rich asteroid targets for the company’s first exploration mission.

......

I am going to talk about the cycler(+) (Which will also be able to park at Earth or Mars in a next post.)

Here I am going to mention:
1) SpaceX, Elon Musk.
2) Blue Origins, Jeff Bezos.
3) Others coming up.  Other companies, and other national space programs.

4) This asteroid scouting skill which may be emerging.

So how #4 gets money out of scouting is an interesting proposition.  How do they protect their "intellectual property rights"?

With #1, #2, and #3 up and coming, would "Planetary Resources" build their own spaceships?  Probably not I am thinking.
So then, I would assume that at this moment BFS could have a partnership potential with the efforts of Planetary Resources.
Later, maybe others.  That will be interesting to see how Planetary Resources will make it's money.

On the other hand maybe they well be joining SpaceX or some other entity as a partnership.

Another question is;
"Will the asteroid be moved to the Earth/Moon gravity well?"
or;
"Will the asteroid be mined in place?"
or;
"Will the asteroid be moved to a more convenient solar orbit and mined?

Other question(s)
"Will the technology perfected, allow a Near Mars Asteroid to be parked in Martian orbit to be mined?"

Next, large interplanetary spaceships that can cycle or not, as they might wish, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-28 21:58:18)

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#41 2018-04-28 22:01:44

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

Alright, a large interplanetary spaceship.

Here are some reference materials:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8137

As I see it two primary options will exist for a large interplanetary spaceship which "Cycles" between Earth and Mars.
1) Flyby gravitational propulsive assist.
2) Ballistic capture.  For ballistic capture their can be two options.
    a) Ballistic Capture, no Aerocapture. (Note: I prefer this one)
    b) Ballistic Capture and Aerocapture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture
Quote:

It is predicted to be
safer, as there is no time critical insertion burn,
can launch at almost any time, rather than having to wait for a narrow window of opportunity,
would be more fuel efficient for some missions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocapture

A large interplanetary spaceship of this type would eventually derive from the plans of Jeff Bezos.  Where he apparently wants an orbital civilization in the vicinity of Earth/Moon, a large ship could also be built.

I am thinking so large that it would have very good synthetic gravity, and radiation protection.  It may or may not have almost complete self containment for life support, or could be partially supplied by outside robotic crafts.

......

While the idea of a massive spaceship will seem impractical to those thinking of course corrections with chemical or nuclear propulsions, while not excluding those as minor players I want to use several other propulsion methods.

I have already mentioned two types of propulsion.  Both are gravitational:
1) Flyby gravity assist slingshot.
2) Ballistic Capture to a planetary orbit.

For my version, I prefer that the ship will usually not do a ballistic capture to Earth orbit, but it is my understanding that it could.
It would do a flyby gravity assist slingshot off of the Earth/Moon's momentum and gravity characteristics to generally point towards a path to Mars.

At Mars, it would generally do a Ballistic Capture to Martian orbit.

The reasons are:
1) Earths Gravity well is deeper.
2) Maintenance of Earth based intercept ships should be much better than at Mars.  Such ships would load people to the massive ship.
3) Means of rescue of a mishap should be greater at Earth/Moon (Orbital Civilization), than at Mars (Orbital Civilization) for a long time, as Mars will be a frontier.
4) Mars having a shallower gravity well, a Mars orbit could be a time to resupply the ship from Mars and from a Mars orbital civilization.

In order for this to work though their will need to be more propulsive modes than just gravitational flyby and ballistic capture.

Additional propulsive methods:

If you are going to resupply the ship from Mars orbit, or have robotic ion rockets resupply it in flight, then chemical and Nuclear are options, but I think very minor ones for special events. 

I am looking at:
1) Magnetic Solar Wind Propulsion.
2) Solar Sails.
3) Ion Rockets.  Their are now some existing and up and coming which can expel Xenon, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and even solid metals.
4) The expulsion of solid Oxygen pellets from a mass driver.
5) Other?

Of these I currently prefer the Magnetic Solar Wind Propulsion, but their could be multiple types of propulsion to be used in situations where they have the most to offer.

From the Ballistic Capture reference earlier:
Quote:

Low-energy transfer
Main article: Low-energy transfer
Low energy transfer (LET) was proposed in the 80s. The spacecraft is launched into a transfer orbit that places it ahead of the target planet's orbital path. As the planet approaches the spacecraft, the planet's gravity draws the craft into a high circular orbit eliminating the need for an insertion burn. This orbit is a temporary one, eventually the spacecraft would leave it again - but then it uses low power thrusters to get into a lower orbit. It can use the much more efficient ion thrusters at this stage as there is no need for a high level of thrust.

Probably not moving to a lower orbit.  Rather I see the big ship captured to Martian orbit by ballistic method, and then moving up the Martian gravity well to a higher orbit (Circular? Elliptical?), just on the edge of escaping.

During this maneuver where it is getting poised to leave Mars, the people would disembark to Mars orbital synthetic gravity machines, and any materials to be supplied to the big ship would be moved to it.

A probable method to move the big ship to that higher orbit might be magnetic solar wind propulsion.

Then when they were ready they would use whatever propulsive method they had to kick the ship out of that high Martian orbit, and towards an inner planet, such as Earth, but not necessarily Earth.

Interestingly their is an approximately 3/1 ratio of the Martian Year to the Venus Year.

A year on Mars is almost twice as long as a year on Earth, being 686.9726 Earth days long.

A "year" on Venus is the time it takes to orbit the Sun. That's about 225 Earth days ( 224.7 Earth days to be more exact).

The math seems to come out as 3.0572879395 to 1.  Useful for anything?  Oh I don't know.  Maybe.

Nite Nite.

......

Amended a few minutes later:
5) Other?

One option is this:
5) Other?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether
However it will conflict with magnetic radiation shielding and propulsion.  So radiation shielding would have to be mass, when this propulsion method was used.

However, technically you could do a flyby of Earth picking up way too much energy to point to Mars, but on your cruse to Mars you would be able to generate electricity while correcting your course to do a ballistic capture intercept.  This would be useful as solar energy drops off as you move out in the solar system towards Mars.

Leaving Mars?  Well, I am not the best at this but an elliptical Martian orbit, and an exit to solar orbit could head you partially in the direction of Earth if executed correctly I presume.  But you would most likely need to use solar energy to cause your tethers to drive your spaceship towards Earth.  But their would be far less people on board needing life support on the trip to Earth, and as you got closer to Earth the amount of solar energy procured should increase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-28 23:10:49)

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#42 2018-04-30 19:31:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

A question for anyone who may wish to help me.  I searched for Banana, and several things came up.  However the text of the threads is very long.

Perhaps someone could tell me what conclusions have already been made about asexual bananas as a crop on Mars?

I am actually thinking that lava tubes with artificial lights might be a good situation for them.

Offline

#43 2018-05-03 11:27:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

This is the sort of thing I like to keep an eye on:

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-harvestin … hesis.html
Title Quote:

Harvesting clean hydrogen fuel through artificial photosynthesis

Quote:

A new, stable artificial photosynthesis device doubles the efficiency of harnessing sunlight to break apart both fresh and salt water, generating hydrogen that can then be used in fuel cells.

The device could also be reconfigured to turn carbon dioxide back into fuel.
Hydrogen is the cleanest-burning fuel, with water as its only emission. But hydrogen production is not always environmentally friendly. Conventional methods require natural gas or electrical power. The method advanced by the new device, called direct solar water splitting, only uses water and light from the sun.
"If we can directly store solar energy as a chemical fuel, like what nature does with photosynthesis, we could solve a fundamental challenge of renewable energy," said Zetian Mi, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Michigan who led the research while at McGill University in Montreal.
Faqrul Alam Chowdhury, a doctoral student in electrical and computer engineering at McGill, said the problem with solar cells is that they cannot store electricity without batteries, which have a high overall cost and limited life.
The device is made from the same widely used materials as solar cells and other electronics, including silicon and gallium nitride (often found in LEDs). With an industry-ready design that operates with just sunlight and seawater, the device paves the way for large-scale production of clean hydrogen fuel.
Previous direct solar water splitters have achieved a little more than 1 percent stable solar-to-hydrogen efficiency in fresh or saltwater. Other approaches suffer from the use of costly, inefficient or unstable materials, such as titanium dioxide, that also might involve adding highly acidic solutions to reach higher efficiencies.
Mi and his team, however, achieved more than 3 percent solar-to-hydrogen efficiency. To reach this stable efficiency, the team built a nano-sized cityscape of gallium nitride towers that generated an electric field. The gallium nitride turns light, or photons, into mobile electrons and positively charged vacancies called holes. These free charges split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.
"When this specially engineered wafer is hit by photons, the electric field helps separate photogenerated electrons and holes to drive the production of hydrogen and oxygen molecules efficiently," Chowdhury said.
At present, the silicon backing of the chip does not contribute to its function, but it could be doing more. The next step may be to use the silicon to help capture light and funnel charge carriers to the gallium nitride towers.
"Although the 3 percent efficiency might seem low, when put in the context of the 40 years of research on this process, it's actually a big breakthrough," Mi said. "Natural photosynthesis, depending how you calculate it, has an efficiency of about 0.6 percent."
He adds that 5 percent efficiency is the threshold for commercialization, but his team is aiming for 20 or 30 percent efficiency.
Mi conducts similar research to strip carbon dioxide of its oxygen to turn the resulting carbon into hydrocarbons, such as methanol and syngas. This research path could potentially remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, like plants do.
"That's the truly exciting part," Mi said.

The device is documented in the study, "A photochemical diode artificial photosynthesis system for unassisted high efficiency overall pure water splitting," published in Nature Communications. Along with Mi and Chowdhury, co-authors include Michel Trudeau of the Center of Excellence in Transportation Electrification and Energy Storage, Hydro-Québec, and Hong Guo of McGill University.
Explore further: Ultrathin black phosphorus for solar-driven hydrogen economy
More information: Faqrul A. Chowdhury et al. A photochemical diode artificial photosynthesis system for unassisted high efficiency overall pure water splitting, Nature Communications (2018). DOI: 10.1038/s41467-018-04067-1
Journal reference: Nature Communications   
Provided by: University of Michigan   
18 shares



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-05-harvestin … s.html#jCp

So to adapt this to Mars, I would suggest an unpressurized greenhouse of glass.

Trying to maintain a 100% RH inside would be really, really hard.  So, I would just put Martian ambient atmosphere inside the greenhouse, and kick the humidity up to a level where the losses through the glaze would be tolerable.

Then you would have a chemical factory, and a heat source during the Martian days.

Extracting fuels and Oxygen might be done, but I suggest simplicity, just taking the output of both Fuels and Oxygen and pushing them into a cold water reservoir.  Also extracting waste heat and pushing that into that reservoir.

You would then have a Biome in which microbes would build their organic matter from the use of fuels and Oxygen, but as they built their bodies, they would leave a percentage of Oxygen behind in the water.  Then you could degas the Oxygen from the water, and extract the microbes, as a food and fuel source.

The cold water reservoir liquid vibrating from the heat purposely put into the water from the greenhouse, and from the biological activity of the microbes would be an energy storage device where heat from the reservoir would be released from the reservoir to the Martian sky to generate power.

Ideally the greenhouses above would also double as radiators.

And yes if you can build pressurized greenhouses for vascular plant crops do so.

And yes if you can build pressurized plant growth chambers with artificial lights, then do so.
(Banana's, Apple trees, duck weed ponds???)

And yes if you can do multiple terrarium containerized farming either on the surface or under ice do so.
(Potatoes, Mushrooms?)

There is nothing wrong with finding abundance.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-03 11:41:20)

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#44 2018-05-03 14:49:50

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,486

Re: General System

Interesting research. Could be v. important for renewables on Earth. Is there enough oxygen from the water splitting process to burn the hydrogen? I am a little unclear on that.

Void wrote:

This is the sort of thing I like to keep an eye on:

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-harvestin … hesis.html
Title Quote:

Harvesting clean hydrogen fuel through artificial photosynthesis

Quote:

A new, stable artificial photosynthesis device doubles the efficiency of harnessing sunlight to break apart both fresh and salt water, generating hydrogen that can then be used in fuel cells.

The device could also be reconfigured to turn carbon dioxide back into fuel.
Hydrogen is the cleanest-burning fuel, with water as its only emission. But hydrogen production is not always environmentally friendly. Conventional methods require natural gas or electrical power. The method advanced by the new device, called direct solar water splitting, only uses water and light from the sun.
"If we can directly store solar energy as a chemical fuel, like what nature does with photosynthesis, we could solve a fundamental challenge of renewable energy," said Zetian Mi, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Michigan who led the research while at McGill University in Montreal.
Faqrul Alam Chowdhury, a doctoral student in electrical and computer engineering at McGill, said the problem with solar cells is that they cannot store electricity without batteries, which have a high overall cost and limited life.
The device is made from the same widely used materials as solar cells and other electronics, including silicon and gallium nitride (often found in LEDs). With an industry-ready design that operates with just sunlight and seawater, the device paves the way for large-scale production of clean hydrogen fuel.
Previous direct solar water splitters have achieved a little more than 1 percent stable solar-to-hydrogen efficiency in fresh or saltwater. Other approaches suffer from the use of costly, inefficient or unstable materials, such as titanium dioxide, that also might involve adding highly acidic solutions to reach higher efficiencies.
Mi and his team, however, achieved more than 3 percent solar-to-hydrogen efficiency. To reach this stable efficiency, the team built a nano-sized cityscape of gallium nitride towers that generated an electric field. The gallium nitride turns light, or photons, into mobile electrons and positively charged vacancies called holes. These free charges split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.
"When this specially engineered wafer is hit by photons, the electric field helps separate photogenerated electrons and holes to drive the production of hydrogen and oxygen molecules efficiently," Chowdhury said.
At present, the silicon backing of the chip does not contribute to its function, but it could be doing more. The next step may be to use the silicon to help capture light and funnel charge carriers to the gallium nitride towers.
"Although the 3 percent efficiency might seem low, when put in the context of the 40 years of research on this process, it's actually a big breakthrough," Mi said. "Natural photosynthesis, depending how you calculate it, has an efficiency of about 0.6 percent."
He adds that 5 percent efficiency is the threshold for commercialization, but his team is aiming for 20 or 30 percent efficiency.
Mi conducts similar research to strip carbon dioxide of its oxygen to turn the resulting carbon into hydrocarbons, such as methanol and syngas. This research path could potentially remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, like plants do.
"That's the truly exciting part," Mi said.

The device is documented in the study, "A photochemical diode artificial photosynthesis system for unassisted high efficiency overall pure water splitting," published in Nature Communications. Along with Mi and Chowdhury, co-authors include Michel Trudeau of the Center of Excellence in Transportation Electrification and Energy Storage, Hydro-Québec, and Hong Guo of McGill University.
Explore further: Ultrathin black phosphorus for solar-driven hydrogen economy
More information: Faqrul A. Chowdhury et al. A photochemical diode artificial photosynthesis system for unassisted high efficiency overall pure water splitting, Nature Communications (2018). DOI: 10.1038/s41467-018-04067-1
Journal reference: Nature Communications   
Provided by: University of Michigan   
18 shares



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-05-harvestin … s.html#jCp

So to adapt this to Mars, I would suggest an unpressurized greenhouse of glass.

Trying to maintain a 100% RH inside would be really, really hard.  So, I would just put Martian ambient atmosphere inside the greenhouse, and kick the humidity up to a level where the losses through the glaze would be tolerable.

Then you would have a chemical factory, and a heat source during the Martian days.

Extracting fuels and Oxygen might be done, but I suggest simplicity, just taking the output of both Fuels and Oxygen and pushing them into a cold water reservoir.  Also extracting waste heat and pushing that into that reservoir.

You would then have a Biome in which microbes would build their organic matter from the use of fuels and Oxygen, but as they built their bodies, they would leave a percentage of Oxygen behind in the water.  Then you could degas the Oxygen from the water, and extract the microbes, as a food and fuel source.

The cold water reservoir liquid vibrating from the heat purposely put into the water from the greenhouse, and from the biological activity of the microbes would be an energy storage device where heat from the reservoir would be released from the reservoir to the Martian sky to generate power.

Ideally the greenhouses above would also double as radiators.

And yes if you can build pressurized greenhouses for vascular plant crops do so.

And yes if you can build pressurized plant growth chambers with artificial lights, then do so.
(Banana's, Apple trees, duck weed ponds???)

And yes if you can do multiple terrarium containerized farming either on the surface or under ice do so.
(Potatoes, Mushrooms?)

There is nothing wrong with finding abundance.

Done.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#45 2018-05-03 21:55:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I think that if you are splitting H20 or CO2, you get all the Oxygen that was bonded to H2 or C, so I would suppose yes.

I know that many are turned off by fermented food from CO or H2, but as I see it the low bar set by the physical requirements to implement make it well worth it to make it the  base of a food and chemical industry on Mars or in other space locations.

For instance I wish for a method to use solar chambers in the vacuum of space to contain a very thin atmosphere.  So thin that viscous flow does not occur, rather molecular flow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_molecular_flow

The article about the molecule splitter does not give me sufficient information about the process to determine just how well it would be compatible with what I want.

One concern about having synthetic gravity habitats in orbit as was proposed in the 1970's (About), is that they would leak so much that if human growth went to it's maximum in the solar system, within 10,000 years??? all the volatile gasses in the solar system would have been used and would have leaked out of those habitats and been swept out of the solar system.

So, I hope to improve on that.  First of all, I would not go with the notion of rows and rows of windows holding back a human survival level of atmospheric pressure against the vacuum of orbital space.

While windows for viewing space or windows for agriculture can be contemplated, as a rule, I prefer a multilayers of walls not transparent, of metals and strong fibers.

But surrounding that indeed a very low pressure window glass greenhouse.  Below viscous flow.  Where gasses leaked from the internal more pressurized habitat would be held in a molecular flow condition to be recaptured by vacuum pumps.

But inside the molecular flow greenhouse the artificial photosynthesis device, so that you could intentionally add H20 and/or CO2 to the molecular flow greenhouse and expect the solar flux entering the greenhouse to split those substances into useful products.  Of course means of recovery/separation will have to be devised.

My preference is to develop such an artificial photosynthesis at molecular flow pressures.  That way, it is very hard for gasses to escape even if their are thin cracks between the window panes.

Further I anticipate putting a plasma bubble around the outside of the molecular flow greenhouse, that or just a magnetic field.  This would hopefully be the last line of defense to impede the loss of atmosphere from the synthetic gravity habitat

I anticipate pink light greenhouses inside the synthetic gravity habitat, but pressurized solar greenhouses may be possible, but I consider them to be a lot of trouble when you can do it more safely and with less atmospheric loss using both artificial photosynthesis, and artificial light greenhouses.

And of course there will need to be electrical power sources included, solar or some kind of nuclear.

Adapt the above to worlds without significant atmospheres.  The Moon for instance.

Then go back to the Martian or Earth or else planetary environments with atmospheres, and modify the process as needed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-03 22:16:10)

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#46 2018-05-05 12:10:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

I guess to summarize my desires in post #45, I would say I would want the human race to develop an artificial photosynthesis that does not have to involve liquid water.

That is it would work on vapors of water or CO2, ect.

Such a process also would be more likely to endure periods of below freezing temperatures with a minimized probability of damage to the process hosting structures.

This allows you to drop the pressure so that your solar photosynthesis device does not require transparent walls that have to deal with significant differential pressures.

Still however I do favor a "Wet" process involving microbes or perhaps eventually multicellular organisms where the chemicals produced in the low pressure "Dry" process could be processed by existing or modified living organisms, for the benefit of a life web involving humans or their descendents.

For instance Mushrooms are multicellular, and can "Digest" Oils, while consuming Oxygen.

Example:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ … ation.html

So we have microbial fungi which can already ferment food and chemicals for human use.  We might also take the Mushrooms which apparently can digest petroleum, and modify them to east chemicals produced by artificial photosynthesis.  And then modify the Mushrooms to fulfill more of the nutrient needs of humans than they currently do.

Mushrooms are technically the "Fruits" of the "Mushroom" plant which is mostly under the soil.  So, in actuality this is an opportunity to develop a food source for humans were you do not have to kill the animal/plant that you farm.  It is potentially a more moral way to obtain subsistence for the human race.

In space it will be very unlikely to get poisonous varieties to invade the farms, unless there were gross negligence, or purposeful malice involved.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-05 12:19:17)

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#47 2018-05-07 19:05:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

Why Mars is stunted in size.

I guess I will put this here for future reference.  If I put it somewhere else it will be buried.

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-mars-growth-stunted.html
Quote:

A University of Oklahoma astrophysics team explains why the growth of Mars was stunted by an orbital instability among the outer solar system's giant planets in a new study on the evolution of the young solar system. The OU study builds on the widely-accepted Nice Model, which invokes a planetary instability to explain many peculiar observed aspects of the outer solar system. An OU model used computer simulations to show how planet accretion (growth) is halted by the outer solar system instability. Without it, Mars possibly could have become a larger, habitable planet like Earth.

So anyway, it is thought that the Earth developed 10 times longer than Mars, and Mars stopped growing due to the effects of Jupiter and Saturn.  So, they say Mars ended as an embryo planet, not a full fledged planet.

......

I think I will add this as well, because it relates to how Mars is not so much like Earth but somewhat like Earth:

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-geoscient … plate.html
Quote:

"It is much more common for planets to have an outer solid shell that is not fragmented, which is known as 'single lid tectonics'," Stern said.
Geoscientists disagree about when the Earth changed from single lid to plate tectonics, with the plate fragmenting from one plate to two plates and so on to the present global system of seven major and many smaller plates. But Stern highlights geological and theoretical evidence that plate tectonics began between 800 million and 600 million years ago, and has published several articles arguing for this timing.
In the new study, Stern and Miller provide new insights by suggesting that the onset of plate tectonics likely initiated the changes on Earth's surface that led to Snowball Earth. They argue that plate tectonics is the event that can explain 22 theories that other scientists have advanced as triggers of the Neoproterozoic Snowball Earth.

......

The Mariner Rift Valley is possible evidence that Mars tried or might even be trying to initiate plate tectonics.  Most likely a failure.

Less heat I think and perhaps a much thicker lighter crust.

I am guessing that overall, Mars got less heavy materials than Earth.  My logic is that in the early part of planetary formation for Earth and Mars, lighter materials may have been more available to form the two planets.  In the later part, I am guessing that the solar wind and sunlight had pushed the lighter materials outward in the solar system.  Mars is both further out, and according to the first linked article, stopped growing after 10% of the growth span of Earth.

So, composed of lighter materials, perhaps a lighter thicker crust, and so more stratified.

The Earth churns enough apparently from thermal processes to break the crust, and subduct it where it cools off and becomes dense enough relative to the warmer materials below.

Just not enough energy to break up a thicker crust on Mars I think.

.....

Why does this matter?  We, we might gain a more assured understanding of what we are trying to deal with.

I think it is wonderful that Mars is what it is.  It is just on the edge of being living.  We may be able to make it live.  And yet it's gravity well is quite favorable for sponsoring a spacefaring civilization.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-07 19:23:14)

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#48 2018-05-08 12:27:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

This sort of thing interests me, because as I see it, it can be perfected on Earth for real uses, and yet will likely serve well on Mars, and various moons of Jupiter and the outer solar system.

On Mars, of course I have advocated water impoundments, and canals.  Those would also be useful on Callisto, Ganymede and moons further out.

https://www.space.com/40517-former-nasa … ormer.html
Quote:

In its ROV mode, Aquanaut has two arms for doing work.
Credit: Houston Mechatronics
A transformer designed to do grunt work for the oil industry and military is coming, and it's… admittedly kind of fun to look at.
Houston Mechatronics, a small company founded and led by a team of former NASA robot engineers, announced May 1 some major strides toward building a transforming submersible the company calls "Aquanaut." The 2,315-pound (1,050 kilograms) unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) will transform itself in order to operate in two modes, according to the company: a sleek, submarine-shaped autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV) mode, and an unfolded, two-armed remotely operated vehicle (ROV) mode for work.
"When Aquanaut moves through the water, we want as little drag as possible to extend the maximum range of what the vehicle can do on battery power," Houston Mechatronics spokesperson Sean Halpin said. "By enclosing the limbs, we're able to operate the vehicle over great distances, up to 200 kilometers [124 miles]." [24 Underwater Drones – The Boom in Robotics Beneath the Waves] 

The underwater drone's two big selling points, Halpin told Live Science, are its long arms and long range. Each arm is a significant chunk of the Aquanaut's length — 9 feet 6 inches (2.9 meters) in AUV mode, and 11 feet 6 inches (3.5 meters) in ROV mode — and highly articulated for a number of tasks requiring dexterity. Halpin said that the arms are the only part that's been fully completed, but that they're the most difficult bit to design.

Aquanaut will swim through the water in its sleek AUV mode.
Credit: Houston Mechatronics
The first challenge of Aquanaut, he said, was "elegance." The company worked to come up with a design that was fully transformable and highly functional in ROV, mode while using as few moving parts as possible."As you can imagine, things that move may break," he said. "Now, if you see the Transformers in the Michael Bay movies they have a million little parts that are moving when they transform. That would not be how a normal robot would do it."

The second challenge was intelligence, he said. Aquanaut, like all long-distance robot subs, has to function miles away from its home base, where the connection speed between it and its human controller might be just a "fraction of dial-up," so really weak, Halpin said.
That means that even as it obeys general instructions from its human controller, it has has to do a lot of its detailed decision-making on its own. Aquanaut is designed to inspect itself for damage and make fine motor adjustments under its own guidance.
Aquanaut is being funded primarily by the Defense Department and oil industry, according to Defense One.
Halpin said that Aquanaut's first fully-assembled underwater "tank test" should happen in the coming months, and that Houston Mechatronics expects to start marketing the robot to individual clients in 2019.
Originally published on Live Science.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-08 12:28:04)

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#49 2018-05-19 08:03:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

This post, my interest are Phobos(As a fulcrum to mount Heliostats on), Demos(As a fulcrum to mount Heliostats on), and of course Mars, and Heliostats (Electrostatic?), and human civilization, handling radiation in Martian orbit.

Reference, moons of Mars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars

So if tidally locked Phobos and Demos are fulcrums, then heliostats associated with them may be levers with which we might hope to manipulate Mars itself, and the human settlement of Mars.

So if Heliostats are to be contained in the gravitational fields of these moons, and/or attached to the moons by mooring posts, they will have to be composed of manufactured materials. 

I would like to avoid using processed expensive materials.  Therefore I contemplate electrostatic motion to be used with them, and that except for perhaps necessary reflective coatings, metal will be avoided in the construction of these.

Consider a disco ball:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_ball

That is one visualization, but you could also put a cube around phobos and/or Demos, a sphere or cube of heliostats.  Just so you don't alter the moons to the extent that you cause them to depart from being tidally locked.  I presume that Demos is also.  If not then a sphere for Demos.

Obviously the parts of these moons more facing the planet Mars are of the greatest interest.

So, if the moons are a resource and we hope to turn them into tools for our purposes, what might those purposes be?

1) By recruiting a collection of mirrors of the disco ball or cube, photons might be diverted to intercept solar panels on the surface of Mars, providing some extra power to the solar panels, and boosting the productiveness of built infrastructure on the surface of Mars.

2) While I realize that it might be hard or impossible to project photons to the polar areas from Phobos, I wonder if it could be done from Demos?  However, from Phobos we might hope to intercept buried ground ice in certain locations.  Further, early morning fogs in the vicinity of the equator of Mars will be in the line of sight to be intercepted.

3) Woops!  Yes here is another use.  If you can recruit mirrors to power solar panels on the surface of Mars, you should also be able to recruit mirrors to aim at a solar powered space propulsion unit.  So, to assist the movement of raw materials through the Martian gravity well.

4) Obviously if you wanted to you could recruit a group of heliostat mirrors to process materials, melt them, or to power solar panels that produce power to process materials.

The thinking here is to suck moisture up in a created vortex into the highest atmosphere of Mars by using a mirrored focus to create the vortex.  During the process, and after it, Ultra Violet light should split H20 and CO2 molecules, and those may recombine to some extent to create greenhouse gasses.  Also, some Hydrogen should escape from the planets gravitational field, and leave behind an enhanced level of Oxygen.  I don't claim it at all as I have no idea if it can work, but we might hope that we could layer the Martian atmosphere, so that the current layer is topped by a layer of mostly Oxygen, and that that also could lead to the existence of some Ozone.  That I hard to be assured of, but a possible bonus.

It would be nice if we could render the surface of Mars not just warmer with greenhouse gasses, but to also expand the volume of the atmosphere by photolysis, and even to improve the surface environment of Mars with a very high up Ozone layer.  I consider a stable and significant Ozone layer to be a far reach, but who knows, maybe?

There is said to be enough frozen CO2 in the ice caps of Mars (Primarily the South pole), that if vaporized, the atmospheric pressure of the planet would reach an average surface pressure of 11 Millibars.  Obviously the pressure in Hellas would be more than 22 mb under those conditions.  Further, such an atmosphere is said to be able to carry enough moisture for snowfalls, and those snowfalls could create temporary melt water streams.

So if snowfalls were occurring regularly in the areas of Mars which were reachable by the Heliostats, that snow could be vaporized and sucked into the upper atmosphere to experience photolysis.

......

Alright, I mentioned electrostatic motors, and the desire to avoid the usage of large amounts of precious materials such as metals in the construction of the heliostats for this disco ball or cube terraform method.

So, a rather crude start, but of course an attachment post anchored in the moon of interest.  A mirror attached with pivot.  The mirror so designed that it will tend to settle in the gravitational field of the moon in a "Null" position.  However the mirror segmented to different electrically isolated segments, each which can be electrostatically charged independently.  The electrostatic force being used to motivate the mirrors to pivot as desired.  The moons proximate electrical charge being the attractor, or repulsor.  An electrostatic balance beam perhaps.  Obviously the sets of such mirrors recruited to a purpose being AI/Human controlled.

.....

Radiation.

Not that unusually harsh for machines.  In orbit of Mars, then Mars gives humans partial protection from some cosmic radiation.  The moons themselves may provide some protection.  Also the materials of the moons may be used to provided some protection for humans.

In fact I would entertain synthetic gravity machines protected by bulk materials, and perhaps magnetic shields.

.....

I guess that is enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-19 08:55:22)

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#50 2018-05-22 21:10:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,256

Re: General System

There seem to be a lot of people working on artificial photosynthesis.  That's good.

Here is one example from many:
https://phys.org/news/2017-08-solar-power-titanium.html

Many others can be found with a search.

Typically they seem to involve liquid water.

......

I would like to propose an invention (Which I only have sketchy requirements for), which I feel would be very useful to the human race in space.  It might also work in a modified way on Earth and Mars.

1) Using window glass in the vacuum of orbital space to contain molecules of gas at a molecular flow pressure.
2) Having a sheet of catalyst bonded to an electrically insulating base.
3) The Electrical insulating base being an electrical capacitor.
4) The capacitive nature of the device allowing the molecular pressure gases to be gathered onto the catalyst substance at a higher pressure, even a viscous flow pressure, while the gas pressure on the glass glaze will still be at a molecular flow pressure (Very low).
5) The avoidance of pressurizing the catalyst to the point where a liquid will form.

What might be achieved?

Splitting molecules of gasses such as CO2 and H20 into subparts.  Perhaps CO, and O2 and H-Variations and Oxygen.  And perhaps other gasses.

These gasses resulting being in disequilibrium can serve to feed biological organisms, or to feed a chemistry industry.

......

The objective is to limit the loss of volatile substances. 

A criticism of;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill … land_Three
has been that if the human race grew exponentially into the solar system, using these types of method, I believe it was said that all the volatile substances in the solar system would be depleted within 10,000 years.

I just don't like that, even though I am not going to live 1000 years most likely let alone 10,000 years.

So I modify what I think should be done.

1) Don't grow exponentially.  Grow to a population sufficient to have the intellectual and technological and economic capabilities to expand to the stars.  Starships if possible by some technology which would seem like magic now, or slow creeping through the Oort clouds, presuming other star systems have Oort clouds.

2) Engineer your photosynthesis to not deplete volatiles at a high rate.
     a) Use the dry vacuum photosynthesis I have described above if it can be invented.
     b) Use artificial "Pink" light greenhouses.
     c) Have multiple shells in your synthetic worlds which may in some parts spin for artificial gravity. 

As it happens a glass glaze only having to hold back molecular flow would be a good catch basin for volatiles leaking from the interior of these habitats. So the dry low pressure photosynthesis would not only capture the energy of the sun as chemical energy, but would catch some of the leaked gasses for recycling.

As for the artificial pink greenhouses, here is an example:
Per Kimbal Musk I believe:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … ainer.html

An artificial photosynthesis method such as I have requested/suggested, would allow us to expand rapidly to harness Earth and Mars orbital and eventually sol orbital solar energy, in the direction, but I think not of the magnitude of a Dyson Sphere.


And of course Jeff Bezos and Richard Branson are all about Earth and Earth Orbital activities (For now).
Elon Musk starting at Mars, but now filling in everything in between.

http://www.virgingalactic.com/
https://www.blueorigin.com/
http://www.spacex.com/

And of course many others both associated with old space and perhaps more independent.

It could be a very, very nice future I think!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-05-22 21:40:33)

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