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#26 2018-04-13 19:50:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,375

Re: General System

Heliostat for mars:

The solar constant of Mars 589 watts per square meter. Using the triple junction on mars solar cells of 33%  http://www.spectrolab.com/pv/support/Ed … script.pdf
The rovers on mars are using this product and get about 400whr of energy for a mars day and based on 4 hr of collecting means 100w panels for a meter possibly. that is about 300 watts that is hitting the mars surface.

300 Watt/Square Meter = 95.0995 BTU/Hour Square Foot so 100 btu is close enough...

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/wn … ersion.pdf

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

A BTU is the amount of energy it takes to heat a pound of water by 1 degree Farenhiet.

https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … elsius.htm

The high temperature panels were able to widthstand 800'C which is 1472'F which is 1472 btu or 4629w/m^2 or just or 15.5 reflective panels to rise the heat and light energy that we can recieve per panel to its max output.

Now if I can find the electrical and thermal conversion information.....

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#27 2018-04-15 20:15:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,375

Re: General System

alt43.gif

For the do it yourselfer that wants to build from insitu materials here is a site that makes them in just about any shape and size.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Co … rating.htm

tower.jpg

http://www.alternative-energy-tutorials … ent-page-1

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#28 2018-04-16 14:09:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

The objective would be to get the most for the least.  That is to find a method that least consumes critical materials such as Copper and Aluminum, ect., but still delivers a value added service, that is an energy bonus method.

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#29 2018-04-20 09:28:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

I choose to propose a revision of what is the "Inner Solar System" and the "Outer Solar System".

I feel that Jupiter, its Moons, and the Trojans and Apollo's belong in the inner solar system, and from Saturn out, is the outer solar system.

My feeling is that most likely the Trojans, and Apollo's will contain a mixture of materials, where silicates/metals are available along with many critical lighter materials up to Hydrogen.

Callisto will contain silicates and metals at or near it's surface.  Ganymede may also, but I am not sure.  Of course Io will contain silicates, but those will be very hard to access due to Io being deep in Jupiter's gravity well, and of course radiation.

Other than rocky asteroids which from distant times were displaced to orbits near Saturn, and objects further out, it will be hard to access silicates, and metals as abundantly at Saturn, its solar orbit, and orbits further out, with rare exceptions.

Enceladus might be a rare exception.  With an underground ocean, it is possible that it could be mined much more easily than other objects in the outer solar system.  And yes I am aware of a possible conflict with the potential of life.  Still it is true, it might provide metals and silicates.

Other things that matter, include that the use of heliostats to concentrate sunlight may be useful out to the orbit of Jupiter/Trojans/moons.

Not as much in the outer solar system.

......

So, after Mars is on line, if that proves possible, actually, I think the spread of activity to all places in the inner solar system.

A maybe exception being Enceladus/Titan.  Maybe out there also.

......

While there are undefined potentials for Mars, I actually am becoming very interested in Mars orbiting habitats.  Not to ignore Mars at all though.  Mars should become a source of resources heavy and light materials, to bring to orbit, and use along with the materials of it's moons Phobos and Demos.

No need to raise children in .38 g.

Use magnetic fields to shield these orbital habitats.  In fact perhaps shield the entirety of Mars with magnetism artificial.

If the orbital habitats leak, so what.  We hope that the gravitation of Mars along with a magnetic shield will help to recapture these lost molecules to the Martian atmosphere.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-20 09:42:29)

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#30 2018-04-22 08:41:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

OK, Louis provided a interesting video about BFR.

It turns out it was followed by this one about Blue Origin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZSxSvxZUnM

We get the impression that Jeff Bezos is a lesser creature than Elon Musk,  to my mind it turns out that they are a complementary creatures.

And between the two of them and other up and coming entities I may get what I want.

Elon Musk has made statements before about things he later acted on.
For instance, the "Boring Company".

They are trying to recover Fairings, so I actually believe that they will try to do this next thing.
It may be something like ULA's recovery method plus Fairing recovery.

Lately he has talked about trying to recover the 2nd stage for Falcon 9 (Maybe Falcon Heavy also?).
He said the idea was to use a party balloon and a bouncy house.

April 1, Elon spoke about forming a "Mooning Company", to create "A new natural moon for the Earth".  I liked the idea for reasons I will explain, but of course it was half joke at least.  And I sort of fell for it.  Louis straitened me out.  I was pretty sure it was mentioned by him before April 1, but it turns out it was a joke (Maybe).

A actually think SpaceX will do it. (Or something like it).  The reason is, that apparently what Jeff Bezos/Blue Origin intends.  Jeff Bezos has a different intention for accessing space.

His intention apparently is that heavy industry should be moved off from the surface of the Earth, and that the Earth should be a place for light industry, and human occupation.  That therefore will support the notion of orbital factories for heavy industry using solar energy, and not using Earth energy.  Synthetic gravity would most likely be employed in part, along with zero g.

So, between the two of them I get what I want.

......

I have come to the conclusion that Mars should be regarded as a source of resources.  Some to be used in;
1) Martian Orbit.
2) Martian Solar Orbit.
3) Earth/Moon locations.
4) Possibly Mercury/Venus locations.

......

Where Elon Musk/SpaceX primarily adjusts it's reach to get to Mars, and it's business model for BFR to engage in profit opportunities between here and there.

Blue Origin/Jeff Bezos appears to have the Moon as the primary furthest reach.  With the primary intention of building "Land" for heavy industry in the Earth/Moon system.

The two will most likely end up as "Frenemy Entities".

ULA and others will likely participate also.

So Jeff Bezos apparently wants to make an Amazon like delivery system to send materials to the Moon.  SpaceX intends to land BFR on the Moon.  This could be complementary.

That is BFR could deliver some materials to the Moon, and transport lunar rocks to LEO.

Someone, Blue Origins(?) could deliver robots to the Moon to do things with telepresence.  The operators could be in the deep space gateway, or on the Lunar surface, or in some cases on Earth itself.

......

So, BFR will refuel with a tanker Earth>LEO repeatedly.

But why not get rocks from the Moon, let scientists look them over, slice off samples, and then let heavy industry process the bulk into parts.  Oxygen, Metals, Ceramics, Slag (To become mineral wool for various purposes).

***Also, a dust to use to cool the Earth off with in a controlled Nuclear/Asteroid impact winter fashion.  Thus escape the claimed problems of global warming.

......

So, OK BFR gets its Oxygen from the Moon, that then does not have to be lifted from the surface of the Earth.
What about Carbon?

Well if BFR establishes a Mars settlement, perhaps Carbon from the Martian atmosphere may be an exportable product.

Two methods to access it.  Get it from the surface and BFR it to orbit.  Or, if you can capture it from the Martian Exosphere then that might be the way.  As I have said, I think that much of the family life on Mar will actually be likely to occur in orbit.  Mars will be a recreational spot, and a resource source, for a solar economy.

Carbon could be exported as: Carbon itself, Carbon Parts, Tar, kept very cold, Resins.

......

From Mars we might expect that eventually humans will spread to the asteroid belt, and the Trojan/Apollo/Jupiter system, and perhaps beyond.

What about Mercury and Venus?

I am ok with floating cities on Venus.  In fact I am also very ok with high temperature robots that access the surface of Venus.  However those technologies are yet to come.  Even after accessing Venus, it will likely take 50 years or more to develop such capabilities.

But prior to doing that the question of life will need to be answered.  It appears that there are swarms of objects in the atmosphere of Venus about the size of bacteria.  Also the CO is missing presumably because some process is consuming it.  Biological or not.

Most Earth life or pseudo life (Viruses) could not make it in that environment.  But perhaps Viruses from Earth could adapt to infect such organisms if they exist.  Most likely if they exist, Earth and Venus life are related.

Some models of early Venus have it being Earth like while the Earth was still outside the habitable zone (Too cold?).
And this link proposes that any life in the atmosphere of Venus could come to Earth.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale … 525390.stm

So, in my opinion at the very least we should search for such life, and if we find it carefully study it before we venture to use Venus itself.(If we venture to use Venus).

But I might still support extracting materials from the Exosphere of Venus.  Particularly Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon, if that is possible.

......

A slice of a Dyson Sphere >Venus<>Mercury>Inward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

These high temperature solar cells (Which SpaceNut thinks could be made from Lunar, and I presume Mercury materials), should be well suited to operate in this environment: ">Venus<>Mercury>Inward towards the sun"


https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

I am not so sure if it would make sense to lift Oxygen from Mercury to fill "Built Land" (That is synthetic gravity machines).

Rather I would propose that the metal and ceramic portions be extracted from Mercury, and the devices built in orbit would use solar propulsion (Most likely solar sail with Photons, or the Solar Wind), to travel to Venus, do a ballistic capture to Venus, and get filled with Oxygen, Carbon, and Nitrogen.

What about Hydrogen?  Well it appears that our Moon captures it from the sun.  I presume that Mercury will as well.  So if the water for the "Land" is not to come from elsewhere, I presume that the devices manufactured in orbit may have water in them before they travel to Venus.

After being filled from the atmosphere of Venus, then this land might migrate using solar sailing to places in the Mercury/Venus solar orbits domain.

This would be a very energy rich place, and also the best place to use solar propulsion.

So a slice of a Dyson sphere.

Perhaps with this and the habitation of the domains of Earth, Mars, and Jupiter, a solar economy with the power to do interstellar missions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-22 09:45:37)

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#31 2018-04-22 18:22:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

OK, a simple maybe will work item.

What if you had a craft that orbited Venus and that craft had a magnetic field that you could modulate?  Could you even entertain doing a square wave with it, a sine wave, or pulse in either direction?

Yes, this is half baked.

So a magnetic craft orbiting Venus.  The solar wind would push it.  If orbiting away from the sun it should add speed to the crafts orbit.  If orbiting towards the sun the solar wind should make it slow down.  (Venus does not have a significant geomagnetic field).

What if that magnetic field dipped into the interface where the solar wind impacts the upper atmosphere of Venus?  Could you cause a magnetic reconnection, and steal some of the atmosphere of Venus?  Of course lifting atmosphere out of the atmospheric envelope of Venus would lower the orbit of your craft.

To compensate could you turn off or subdue the magnetic field when the craft was traveling towards the sun, and inflate it to maximum when it was traveling away from the sun?

I am presuming most likely that this magnetic field will be sponsored by solar power and technology.

How you get the captured plasma to calm down and become atmospheric gasses is another issue to solve.

But I want Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon.

I want it for the "Land" (Synthetic Gravity Machines) created from the rocky body of Mercury.  I want all of this for a slice of a Dyson Sphere, which I think will give the human race enough energy to sponsor interstellar missions.

Still quite a lot to test and solve.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-22 18:25:52)

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#32 2018-04-23 17:42:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

OK,

So SpaceX manages to access the surface of Mars, and refuel.

Truth is we do not honestly know what to do about what comes next.  We certainly don't know how children will grow up on Mars, what problems may occur.  And we don't know even how an adult human will respond to prolonged exposure to Martian gravity, and the life support methods that necessarily must be used to keep humans alive on Mars, and so on.

It is really a enhanced "Hail Mary", we are just going to do it and get a bloody nose and skinned knees mentality.  Well, as bad as that sounds I will support it.  But if it goes badly, (As I think is very likely), then we need a reasonable plan "B".  We don't want to just go home crying and give up.

So SpaceX is our plan "A" it would appear, but I say that we can draft Jeff Bezos and Mr. Branson as plan "B".

They state that they are more interested in preserving and enhancing the Earth.  Well having done that, then we can consider incorporating what they do into a plan "B" Mars policy, in my opinion.

I think plan "B" will be much better than "Plan 9 from outer space" in any case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space

So, it seems real that Jeff Bezos and Co. intend to put heavy industry for Earth into space orbit.  I interpret this to indicate synthetic gravity machines in some cases.

You should not need a crystal ball to know where I am going with Plan "B".  This then forces the human race to access the solar system from a process of synthetic gravity machines, if it proves unwise to try to adapt humans to alien planets.  Do I have proof that this will be satisfactory?  No....  However it is Plan "B".  We ain't gonna give up just over a bloody nose and skinned knees.  We will have to try it.  If it works in Earth orbit, then it ought to work in Mars orbit, or Ceres orbit, or Jupiter orbit, or Venus orbit, or Mercury orbit.

Radiation?  Well, bulk mass and/or magnetic methods I guess. 

For Mars there is Phobos and Demos for bulk mass, and there may be Carbon and Hydrogen from Mars.  Magnetic fields?  Well in the case where humans cannot live prolonged in that environment, then could we hope to harvest some of the atmosphere of Mars, using magnetic fields.  Harvest it to these synthetic gravity machines?

See....   I'm here if you get a bloody nose and skinned knees.  I'm your friend.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-23 18:06:04)

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#33 Yesterday 19:33:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,108

Re: General System

Lunar Gateway:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … spartandhp

I'm pleased.

OK, in other parts, there is hand wringing over CO2.
I just say fix the problem.  Don't get tribal and hateful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fert … le_of_iron

So materials from the Moon could both shade the Earth, and fertilize the Oceans.  Nuclear winter simulation, metal buffering of acidification of oceans, and then capture of CO2 into blooms in the oceans.  And this from the Moon.  But only if we get desperate to cool off the Earth.

......

Peter Zeihan in one his videos predicts loss of ability to grow crops.  Not in North America or most of South America, but South Asia, Africa, Russia, China, ect.

Fertility of the Oceans might help that problem.

Also I think that this or things like it, might help as well.

https://phys.org/news/2018-04-ray-solar-fuel.html

So, a Hydrogen source.  Elsewhere recently I have described a system that can harvest 90% of the CO2 from a smoke stack.

Have that and have the Hydrogen, and I think you could ferment food.

Bingo:
https://www.novonutrients.com/technology
Quote:

NovoNutrients employs a natural fermentation process to capture and convert CO2 and other forms of waste carbon into animal feed. The process is similar to those used in producing other fermented food products like tofu, beer, wine, cheese, yogurt, and yeast. During fermentation, a consortium of naturally occurring, non-GMO, single-cell microorganisms works symbiotically to fix capture and use carbon dioxide, converting it into organic building blocks for growth and reproduction. The microorganisms are chemoautotrophs, meaning that they can produce complex organic compounds like proteins, fats, and carbohydrates from simple, inorganic ingredients like CO2 and hydrogen. After fermentation, the microbes are harvested, dried, pelletized and packaged into a high protein, fish-free feed (F3) ingredient suitable for aquaculture and other forms of animal feed.

But of course people who think of living on Mars would never have a look at something like this as far as I can see on this web site.

Instead we will just wring our hands and go down to our reptilian brains.  That should work well.

And as far as I am concerned humans will eat this "Animal Feed" as some type of creative food additive, (Think 3D food printing), rather than starve.  That will be true on Earth, Mars, and other places.

Of course for the Earth, you could take human fecal emissions and process them further by adding Hydrogen and organisms to that.  That should yield Methane.  Then all you have to do is extract the nutrients from the remnant, and then dump the Carbon containing remainder into the deep ocean.

But as I said, if that's not enough then cool the Earth off with Iron bearing Moon dust, and also fertilize the Oceans, make more algae, and make more fish.  Some of the organic matter will be sequestered on the bottom of the Ocean I believe.

So, what's wrong with winning the game instead of submitting to blood drinking bureaucrats?

I think a stable fed population will facilitate the extension of the human race into the solar system.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:07:08)

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