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#26 2016-09-30 18:12:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,876

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

No I am not that impression. It can be imported but every tonne of imports costs you millions so an ISRU solution delivers huge savings.

Dook wrote:

Louis: You're under the impression that an air lock has to be manufactured on Mars.  It doesn't.  Instead of taking 100 people to Mars, which is absolutely ridiculous, just take 98 and use the weight savings for the pressure doors.  Problem solved easily.

Can you all come back to reality or are you hopelessly lost in Elon Musk's science fiction fantasyland?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2016-11-12 22:28:56

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

Insitu use is the only way to make the best of a small payload deliverable system to which we have in a Red Dragon but its the only thing we currently have slated to land on mars other than exploration one off rovers or landers....

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#28 2016-12-26 22:22:36

Lake Matthew Team - Cole
Member
Registered: 2016-12-21
Posts: 119
Website

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

Watergate

antius wrote:

How about a water filled airlock...  To get out, you don your space suit, enter the water on the high pressure side (which has a shallow column) walk down to the u-bend and ascend a set of steps some 10m high before emerging from the water.

Yes, if the suit is designed to deal with wetting and evaporation / freezing problems, such a "watergate" could be a great convenience and time-saver for the crew. 

Maintaining an open water surface is easiest at lowest elevations, where air pressure allows liquid freshwater.  At higher elevations, add salt.

Suit buoyancy could be a nuisance underwater.  But ballast can fix that.

Last edited by Lake Matthew Team - Cole (2016-12-26 22:23:19)

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#29 2016-12-27 07:52:27

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,261

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

You will need more than 10 metres, or a more dense liquid - remember the low value of Mars gravity.
I think the main issue with this kind of arrangement will be water loss, unless you can come up with a huge and easily accessible ice resource, as you will have to warm it.

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#30 2016-12-27 08:49:04

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,312
Website

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

I don't think Mars habitats are going to be at 1 bar pressure...

I don't know where you think the water would go. Would it not be trapped by a tent at the surface?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#31 2016-12-27 21:17:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

Only if you use decompression will the out going chamber draw away the water via a drop in exit pressure prior to going out as the internal pressure still will be not the levels of a mars surface. This would be simular to the trap under a sink for how to make it function.

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#32 2017-11-27 20:29:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

MIT Team Wins Mars City Design Contest for 'Redwood Forest' Idea

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA3Mi8wNjcvb3JpZ2luYWwvbWFycy1oYWJpdGF0LW1pdC0yMDE3LmpwZw==

MIT’s winning design, which the team calls Redwood Forest, is a collection of "tree habitats" connected through a system of tunnels called "roots." The roots would provide safe access to other tree habitats, private spaces and "shirt-sleeve transportation," according to a statement from MIT. The tunnels would also provide protection from cosmic radiation, micrometeorite impacts and extreme changes in temperature.

Each dome-shaped tree habitat would house up to 50 people, and the team's vision calls for building about 200 of them, to support a settlement of 10,000 pioneers. The structures would include private and public spaces as well as plants and water harvested from the northern plains of Mars, according to the statement.

"On Mars, our city will physically and functionally mimic a forest, using local Martian resources such as ice and water, regolith (or soil), and sun to support life,"

"Every tree habitat in Redwood Forest will collect energy from the sun and use it to process and transport the water throughout the tree, and every tree is designed as a water-rich environment,"

Each dome would have soft cells that would fill with water to help protect inhabitants from radiation, manage heat loads and supply water to both fish and produce farms. The domes would also have solar panels to generate clean energy for charging hydrogen fuel cells and splitting water to create rocket fuel,

https://www.marscitydesign.com/about

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#33 2017-11-28 04:23:54

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,876

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

I think we've all talked about this sort of design. It didn't seem anything special.  How would it be erected?  If not an inflatable (does not seem to be then this is going to require a lot of construction work, and we won't have the giant robots to put it together so, that would mean lots of human labour in EVA suits - horrendous. Why would your first thought be for something so large? Would there be air locks in the tunnels?  Would sufficient solar radiation be getting to the trees to support their growth? What happens in a dust storm? Do all the trees die?

I think my major concern would be the "water-filled panels".  Given the climate on Mars, this would be subject to extreme temperature range, going from cyrogenic temperatures to well above freezing, within one sol in summer. I would be concerned about possible structural damage resulting from the freezing and melting processes. You would probably have to heat the panels to ensure the water never froze. Added complexity.


SpaceNut wrote:

MIT Team Wins Mars City Design Contest for 'Redwood Forest' Idea

https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d … E3LmpwZw==

MIT’s winning design, which the team calls Redwood Forest, is a collection of "tree habitats" connected through a system of tunnels called "roots." The roots would provide safe access to other tree habitats, private spaces and "shirt-sleeve transportation," according to a statement from MIT. The tunnels would also provide protection from cosmic radiation, micrometeorite impacts and extreme changes in temperature.

Each dome-shaped tree habitat would house up to 50 people, and the team's vision calls for building about 200 of them, to support a settlement of 10,000 pioneers. The structures would include private and public spaces as well as plants and water harvested from the northern plains of Mars, according to the statement.

"On Mars, our city will physically and functionally mimic a forest, using local Martian resources such as ice and water, regolith (or soil), and sun to support life,"

"Every tree habitat in Redwood Forest will collect energy from the sun and use it to process and transport the water throughout the tree, and every tree is designed as a water-rich environment,"

Each dome would have soft cells that would fill with water to help protect inhabitants from radiation, manage heat loads and supply water to both fish and produce farms. The domes would also have solar panels to generate clean energy for charging hydrogen fuel cells and splitting water to create rocket fuel,

https://www.marscitydesign.com/about


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#34 2017-11-28 06:39:07

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,312
Website

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

They don't tessellate very well...

I favour hexagonal shaped blocks/buildings of a standard size. As anyone who's played certain board games knows, they fit together and expansion is as simple as adding more hexes. Such buildings would have an inner and an outer wall (providing plenty of shielding), between which would be a circular pressure vessel, and would be capped with a dome. If their location value goes up, we can build new levels on top, just as we do in cities today. If we want to add another hex, we build on to the edge - I'm imagining each side would have an airlock that could be used for this, and we might want to leave a slight gap between hexes. Some would be used for agriculture, others for housing, industry, research, parks etc. An apartment block might consists of housing ringing a park, with light diffusers in the ceiling.

I came up with the design for Luna, but I think it's applicable to other vacuum or near vacuum bodies.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#35 2018-02-11 17:57:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

After many months are we ready to talk about the equipment to make any construction possible, energy levels or fuels to make the construction mining possible or are we to explore for natural cave entrances to make as the first foothold on mars....

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#36 2018-02-19 17:07:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

Same question as post #35 that I raise is one that keeps coming up as we plan the various eco systems such as in the Recent Water on Mars by Void. Granted we have time for mars to do any building that we would want but we need to know what equipment and energy levels are required as well as it being manned or unmanned for the equipments use.

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#37 2020-08-20 18:50:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

tahanson43206 wrote:

SpaceNut has been talking about his concept for a "Toehold" settlement in past posts, including in My Hacienda.  It seems to me there is some correlation between your thoughts about temporary housing on Mars for new arrivals and whatever SpaceNut has in mind.

For SpaceNut ... if you have a topic in mind where discussion of temporary housing for new Mars arrivals would fit, please let us know.  The topic will become increasingly urgent as the capability to deliver thousands of passengers to Mars becomes viable.

One option ** is ** to lay a landing Starship on its side.  In that case, the passengers would have purchased a share in the venture along with their transportation, and their initial home will be the same structure they just experienced for six to eight months of flight.

(th)

Not possible to land a vertical landing ship on its side and a crane to do so would need to be constructed to make it possible.

with mars scale time of missions cycles what is normally temporary can be also long term

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#38 2020-08-20 19:14:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,929

Re: Long Term Mars Habitat

RobertDyck wrote:

Temporary housing: I had always envisioned exploration first with Mars Direct. Then Mars Homestead using a set of 4 Mars Direct habitats: 3 with 4 settlers each, the 4th as a backup and filled with tools and supplies. The habitats would be temporary housing while constructing a permanent base using in-situ resources. Since each hab has accommodations and life support for 4, sending an extra habitat provides additional backup. Each hab would carry one rover, but the additional habitat would carry a compact track loader instead. Once complete, this base could double in size to accommodate 24 crew. Then that crew would build housing for 100 more settlers: in preparation for the first SpaceX Starship.

Click for large image: 4500x2649 pixels, 3.29MB
normal_MHP-4FC-Image001.jpg

Click image for Bobcat sales video from a 2020 trade show. All electric compact track loader.
maxresdefault.jpg

::Edit:: Video talks about the new "all electric" having ball-joint actuators instead of hydraulics. Older electric vehicles still use hydraulics for lift and tilt, and attachments. This raises the question if which is better? The following link talks about hydraulic fluid.
https://www.sealingandcontaminationtips … lic-fluid/

For hydraulic systems working under operating temperature range –40 to 100° C with a maximum temperature range –54 to 135° C, mineral based hydraulic fluids are preferable. For higher operating temperature applications, fire resistant synthetic hydraulic fluids are more suitable. However, these fluids become highly viscous below –20° C.

Mars is cold. Mars weather over 3 days recorded by InSight lander:
insight_marsweather_white.png

Hillside posting is here as well.

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