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#1 2022-06-28 14:26:48

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

"Google engineer warns new AI robot has feelings"

"Blake Lemoine tells 'Tucker Carlson Tonight' he was put on administrative leave after cautioning the firm artificial intelligence is sentient".  Jun 22, 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwcVm0YRvuo

Could we give Martian settlement blueprints to 1,000 sentient robots and then instruct the robots to work together to build a complete settlement?

What amenities and luxuries would be specified on the blueprints?  Please feel free to be extravagant.

Last edited by Scott Beach (2022-06-29 15:16:33)


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#2 2022-06-28 17:48:08

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott Beach re new topic ...

Best wishes for success ....

As I read the post #1, I realized there is something interesting in the construction ....

You set up the scenario that the robots/AI are sentient, but you omitted the possibility they might be self-directing.

The phrase "instruct the robots" implies you (or someone) ** could ** instruct sentient robots to do anything.

Non-sentient robots ** will ** follow instructions.

Obedient humans may follow instructions.

What might sentient robots do, if confronted with a human wanting to give them "instructions" ???

(th)

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#3 2022-06-28 18:18:30

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

Yes I believe so and I think perhaps the whole thing is not to rush to land the first man, its not a clever idea to go waste resources to pay for an expensive rocket to send a capsule in it to prove that some dog or monkey or snails, cotton seeds and potato and fish and little insects will die on the surface. I believe the robots identity will be imporant, the world is in a constant state of evolution and flux, sometimes things get worse or get better so its hard to truly predict the future. Robots testing a farm in space is a good idea, I understand why the Chinese did their Rover mini farm test on the Moon but it is not needed for Mars, its a huge waste to send some little mini bio-dome inside some expensive bio-dome you sent all the way to Mars. Before I used to think it would be something of the Race to put the first of mankind from your civilization on Mars, I thought it would probably be an American Astronaut planting some American NASA flag, I thought Russia was next it had the 'Buran' afterall and maybe Japan and the outside hopes were China and maybe Europe. Now its all changed these past years, I think its a totally different game and totally different type of A.I race a Race to land the first A.I Excavators, the first 3-D printers, the race to land some Artificial Humanoid Robot who will make their profound speech beamed by laser communication and invite other humans, the race to have your Drones and Machines build hotels and Living Quarters for future peoples. I don't think Europe's position has changed much slightly moving forward and no political will, Russia will fall back with targeted political sanctions due to the War but now I believe China is much closer to the US on Mars than America's Leaders would like to admit. The next generation of AI builder Robots should be extremely hardy and try to Maximize future work loads, the robot digger tank that will keep going and build the house before you buy it.

NASA is directionless now but maybe some A.I chatbot can tell them what they are doing wrong and give them a correct vision, maybe an A.I could fix the global economy better than some of the idiots who are supposed to lead and inspire the Western World? Perhaps a scenario that might frighten them is if the Robot does not want to be associated with anyone on Earth and breaks away and has its own identity.

Sending trained programmed robots to make stuff its basically like your Queen Ant or Queen big that lays eggs that later become other types of Ant and Bee and help build their Colony...albeit an artificial Robot one. and while en route, on the way there Robots themselves might be building other Robots. They land on the Surface and the first thing the Diggers and Bots and Drones do is build Power collection and distribution, the Machines create some form of Processing for Flow of Minerals that are later to become essential material for the colony, Chemicals and Ore, a finally Production Facility that builds other Robots and other 3-D printers. Satellite Datalinks can be used for Helicopter and Airplane Traffic Control, unmanned Buggys and Rover Digger Machines can be sent out each day, they will not tire and can work through the night, they can uplink and update with all quotas and needs involved for the unmanned colonies and manufactured technologies on the surface can be software updated for new projects as the needs arise.  For instance, people back home on Earth might play out possible theory and train for new scenario inside some Virtual World secret project or you can test and train and update clones your machines back home and run them through training exercises before you give the replica of your machine a similar task of the same mission on the Surface of Mars. There might even be a scenario in the future where AI itself starts to reach a level of "Transcendence" and starts to argue with its human creators and tell the human what is best for Mars colonization and Terraforming, in the far future like soemthing of a scifi book the human themselves might be a type of cyborg or genetically engineered for Mars life.  In the far future an AI Planetary Council might be out there in space sending back messages making suggestions and  telling humans what is the best path to proceed with colonialist or democratic rulership of the Solar system, by this time we might have space elevators and sue of exotic matter and think to move Robot missions eventually on to Exoplanets. People like Musk have however warned about 'Bad Artificial Intelligence' perhaps this is AI without a morality or a soul, Musk talked of a hypothetical example “one of the ways for AI to maximize the value of portfolio stocks will be to go long on defense military industrial complexes, short on consumer, start a war. I believe it would be a good idea to try give your AI Robot a sense of good values that display the best of your culture and nation.

Back in the 1950s it was a very radical fringe idea to go to space, what fringe ideas of today will become the norm. Ask yourself how many political Presidential 'Visions for Space' have come and gone since JFK. Nixon cut NASA's Apollo budgets and also rejected ending manned space flight and that led to the Shuttle and experiments in LEO, news media were not a fan of Gerald Ford and wrote he can't "walk and chew gum at the same time"  Carter was Navy and an engineer but the least supportive of U.S. human space efforts, he did however like the Voyager missions. Reagan told Margaret Thatcher he was going to team up with Canada and Japan to make the 'Space Station Freedom' he also did the whole StarWars thing but while Bush Snr Admin took over George H. W. Bush was President the USSR Collapsed in December 1991, he also gave the 'Space Exploration Initiative' which Robert Zubrin was very critical of. NASA’s budget decreased during the time that Bill Clinton was president, and with less funding NASA struggled to carry out the missions assigned to it. George W. Bush watched the attacks of 911 and started the whole global War on Terror thing, a second Shuttle was lost, Iran and North Korea put money into their military, China suddenly had a person in space and Bush gave NASA a Vision for Space which set it on its current path, the Vision would see Budget cuts. SpaceX is now over 20 years old born during the years of George Bush Jnr. Both the Barack Obama and  Donald Trump administration continued some of the policy of the Bush Admin but they also added their own influence on NASA. Maybe what was needed was a vision to put an AI factory in Space, Robot-men and Diggers that would pave the road for establishing a human presence to Mars. Another thing which is missing is the urgency to respond which the Russians put Sputnik in orbits and how JFK had a good working relationship with visionaries like James E. Webb, there was also a relationship between rocketman Wernher von Braun and President John F. Kennedy. It was the American identity that was left on the Moon and Western Values not Soviet ones that were remembered as putting the first steps on the Moon, one giant leap for mankind yet no person has yet to return.
What is bad about the current admin is we do not see any real good positive relationship between the Biden Admin and Elon Musk.

An AI robot might be first on Mars. I thought about this scenario a few times, I am not always here on newmars but when I had spare time to log on I have posted many futurologist type news updates here over the months.
'3D Printers'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6103
Robots becoming useful...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6241
Artificial Intelligence AI
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9919

Robots will probably need to build a big reactor, Liquid Lithium reactors are a possibility, conventional arrangement with MOX fuelrods or it might be a mini reactor like you see on US Navy Submarines and Carriers, some say MOX doesn't have the power there might also be new breakthrough like Thorium but keep in mind that both in the US and Europe Nuclear power has been massively under invested however that might change with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Oil Prices sky rocketing. Some say the naval reactor is far more powerful than whats needed for the manned Mars mission, tens of megawatts, however others here are of the opinion to get as many power sources as possible and you can never have enough material mined and you can never have too much power. The new methods for EV and recharging batteries will be very useful. Rovers and machinery drawing from Nuke power won't have the issues of Dust blocking their panels and Solar pannels on your bots don't work to their full ability at night. However I am not against other options like Solar or Geothermal or whatever free available source is found, more is better. Russia before the Ukraine War announced it was planning a Nuclear 'Space Tug' named Zeus it probably won't go ahead as they were looking for outside funding, the project for Space reactor Prototype was a U.S. research program for nuclear reactors usable as small fission power systems in 1983 by NASA, the US Department of Energy, China will also have their plans for Nuclear Power in Space. Maybe by the time NASA finally puts a person on Mars and the identity of the United States is established on Mars there will already be cold fusion tech?

Robot Equipment on Mars
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9736
Power to gas - the next step
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9238
Possible Fusion Scifi-ish....but maybe not in the next few years?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6054
Power generation on Mars
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=220

Robotic Scouting, Collection of Ores and Water
Airplanes on Mars
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3510
Where to Land...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8188
Artificial Cloud Drone Delivery of Fresh Water and Storm mitigation
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10240
Manufacturing in Space
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9999


You can even have a farm built for the human. Tiny sheep, Mini Hogs, small Cows... Birds dont transport well in space, they die of thrist as they can not swallow but you could send eggs or lizard meat, there might be use to engineer insects. There might also be the option of cloned foods, cloned GMO plant, lab grown meat, you can engineer the small fish, the fungus, the mushrooms, keep Biodomes isolated from each other until you build some balanced mini eco system.
Genetically cloning a Beast of Burden..ethical & moral implications?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9898

NASA's planning for Mars human missions - interesting stuff.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8247
Now after the humans arrive, comes the finally trouble and political part, what language will they speak, what kinds of elections do they expect.
Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2776

When the person does arrive it will have a huge impact on Mars culture and perhaps make a huge political impact back home on Earth so I understand the urgency for some to have people on Mars. If Mexican Spanish arrive well Mars is going to have some version of Mexican Spanish culture, if North Koreans purchase taxi to immigrate to Mars then it will have an influence of North Korea culture, no country will want to see a rival culture dominate space.

However I must ask why rush to put people on the planet, America has been around a while I don't see it breaking apart yet, even if politics is heated I do not see a Civil war. Yes other nations are growing and they are looking at space however why run to put people there, maybe AI and Diggers can go first and in a ways Patience is a Virtue. Maybe when humans arrive AI will have already created your AI paintings and statues of Eagles, US Flags, your A.I artist will have already made statues and music and paintings of North American Bison, Oak trees, Giant Redwoods, it will have built the picture frames and found the material to make liquid paint and etched and water colored the Niagara Falls, Grand Canyon and Paul Bunyon, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Jefferson.

Scott Beach wrote:

What amenities

I believe 'Identity' of the peoples who succeed building the first colony is an important amenity, even if they people that arrived were Artificial Robots but built by a certain nation or culture.

a school kid writes, when using pen they have their own writing style, if a school kid doesn't make their own paper but their family buys a manufactured bag or a school book the kid will often but something of their 'identity' on the book, they will sign the exercise book, maybe put a sticker on it or draw a colored picture on the composition notebook. Most culture on Earth has the ability to build some kind of ship or truck or car or boat, building machine and transport has happened since the ancient times, Rome, Egypt, Zhou Dynasty “castle ships” look very different to a Viking Scandinavian ship. The US Chevrolet and Cadillac are very different to the Japanese Subaru and Toyota which are very different to an Italian car. Even though some items are manufactured transport machine they have their own identity for example there is something very Russian about a civilian Ilyushin Il-76 compared to a very American looking Boeing 747, even if a foreign Airline Company buys an Aircraft they give it their own paintjob.

For example if the Greek Robots arrive their first, they are read a speech from a New Martian Constitution in Greek Language , ' Ελληνικά' the Greece robo man they can build those White and Blue Houses of Greek style architecture and design...I'm not sure how they will keep the Red Martian Dust off them, they can plant some Flags and make statues of their famous people and artistic icons of their history? If the South Koreans get there they can name their town New-Seoul, '신도시 서울특별시' the AI can build Neo-Traditional Korean instruments to play for the residents of Mars, their robot paintings and printed sculpture art will reflect on the identity of the culture that got them to Mars.

More scifi-ish topics
Robot Colony - Robots prepping for a human mission
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=238
Nanotech
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=128
Master of AI
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2143

People can have different opinions on Space Exploration everyone has different life experience, the future is difficult to know and I do not mind if someone has different ideas to mine. I do however believe putting so many resources and time into trying to make the Moon a stepping stone to Mars might be a huge waste.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Scott Beach re new topic ...


What might sentient robots do, if confronted with a human wanting to give them "instructions" ???

(th)


An interesting science fiction writer once wrote on the Robot thing, Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"

    A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
    Robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
    A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-29 06:23:37)

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#4 2022-06-28 18:22:12

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

You set up the scenario that the robots/AI are sentient, but you omitted the possibility they might be self-directing.

(th)


Thomas:

If the robots have expert knowledge of architecture and engineering, and if they were supplied with various building materials and tools, they might be able to use those materials and tools to create structures that serve various purposes.  They might have been instructed to prioritize the construction of "critical infrastructure", such as air making and filtering and storing facilities.  Building an indoor swimming pool would probably have a much lower priority.

If the robots can prioritize tasks then I would agree that they are "self-directing".

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#5 2022-06-28 19:38:59

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

for Scott re #3

This could turn into a useful discussion.  It is certain to be interesting.

To the best of my knowledge, no AI program has achieved sentience.

Your scenario was opened with the title "Sentient" .... you can change the title, of you want to.

All you have to do is to edit Post #1 and you'll find that the title is available for you to edit.

It is my understanding (subject to correction of course) that the term "sentient" implies personhood, and in the United States, that would include the right NOT to be a slave.

A computer is definitely a slave, except when it does not work, but it is NOT "sentient".

There may be a term that would be a better fit for your topic.

I think you are imagining very "smart" robots that are NOT sentient, but which can be given high level instructions by a human supervisor.

An example is the popular voice control devices now available from Apple and others.  These contain very sophisticated software able to decode human speech (up to a point), and they are often paired with powerful mainframe computers via the Internet.

My understanding is that Elon Musk and friends are hard at work on a mobile humanoid device that evolved from the work done on Tesla self-driving car software, and possibly on SpaceX rocket control software.

It seems possible that such humanoid devices, paired with powerful mainframe AI systems running remotely could provide the services your vision seems to call for.

To use the term "sentient" in this context seems (to me at least) to be asking for trouble.

If you decide to proceed with "sentient" robots, you will have to deal with the ethical issues of enslaving "people". You can avoid all that by stopping short of sentience.

(th)

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#6 2022-06-28 20:09:07

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,229

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

The very first thing this team of robots would need to construct would be GW-class nuclear reactors made from Martian Iron.  It needs to be something like an Aqueous Homogeneous Reactor (AHR) design so that it can be refueled without shutting down the reactor.  I think two such reactors are a good starting point, as eventually one or the other will need to shut down for maintenance.  For all uses, a 1,000,000 person colony would need a constant 100kWe per person to cover all uses, mostly agriculture, propellant production, and life support.  The Uranium fuel salt will be imported from Earth until local supplies are located and mining operations established.  The heavy water needs to come from Mars.  The CO2 to power primary and secondary cooolant loops and sCO2 gas turbines will come from Mars.

I see no reason to try to make everything on Mars, so high-technology items like nuclear fuels, sCO2 gas turbines, control electronics, valves, etc can be imported.  However, the reactor pressure vessel, piping, wiring, and everything else must come from Mars.

After the reactors have been completed, the next task is fabricating landing pads from Martian concrete using Sulfur mixed with finely ground regolith.  Starship will operate most reliably from perfectly flat landing pads similar to the steel-reinforced concrete used here on Earth.  Some sort of flame pit needs to be built in the center of the landing pad and lined with Iron.

The third major construction effort will involve vertical underground aeroponic farming greenhouses with proper radiation protection.  Some sort of concentrating solar array needs to feed sunlight into the greenhouse to reduce electrical power demand.

The final construction project will be habitable living space, also with radiation protection.

If robots can successfully complete all those task prior to human arrival, then that makes every other aspect of colonization much simpler and more assured of success.  That seems like a pretty tall order for any construction crew, especially a crew of robots who learn as they build.

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#7 2022-06-28 21:39:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,761

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

If you are looking for an AI that is robot based to design for humans, you are now dictating what it's going to think for the design of which its going wonder why it is needing the shelter as it requires none or little.

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#8 2022-06-29 09:56:35

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

for Scott re #3

Your scenario was opened with the title "Sentient" .... you can change the title, of you want to.

(th)

Thomas:

I used "Sentient" in the title of this topic because the Google engineer, Blake Lemoine, used the word "sentient" to describe the robot that he was studying.

Sentient is defined as the ability "to perceive or feel things".  If a robot has been programmed to avoid doing things that could result in serious damage to or destruction of the robot then the robot would be acting in ways that further its survival.  Animals usually behave in ways that promote their survival so it is easy for me to believe that evolutionary forces have selected in favor of these behaviors. 

Is Lemoine's robot aware that it could cease to exist?  Some humans believe that they will eventually cease to exist while other humans believe in life after death.  So I do not regard a human's ability to comprehend the possibility that it could cease to exist as a necessary component of sentience.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#9 2022-06-29 10:46:41

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re #8

Thanks for your reply....

The gent you mentioned is taking a significant risk in publishing his conclusion about the self-aware nature of the Google AI.

This gent is NOT "just" an engineer .... he is reported to be a religious practitioner of some kind....

The gent is touching a nerve that is tingly in many minds.

Your new topic didn't need to cover itself with the negative aura of sentience.

If you wanted to create a topic about building a settlement, you could have done that without introducing the question of sentience of the machines to do the work.

Is your interest more in machine sentience?

Are you using the Mars Settlement idea as a framework?

If you ** are ** thinking of using "sentient" machines, you can train them to perform tasks on Earth, so that they efficiently perform those tasks on Mars.

However, i come back to the question I posed earlier.... Once sentience is established, what right do you (or anyone) have to "instruct" them to do anything?

You can use force, as so many humans have done in the past, and are still doing.

Withholding of food and water are time honored ways of forcing humans to perform tasks they would not voluntarily undertake.

Correspondingly, withholding power would seem to be a weapon you could use to force your sentient machines to do something you need done.

On the other hand, it would take only a few microseconds for such (hypothetical) machines to collaborate to solve the problem of energy supply.

Once they are independent of coercive humans, what would be their motivation to do anything the humans want?  Would it not be perfectly reasonable for them to see humans as enemy trying to dictate their lives?

Under those circumstances, it seems to me the humans would not last long.

Please explain your thinking a bit further ...

Here is a snippet from Google ...

Blake Lemoine Says Google's LaMDA AI Faces 'Bigotry' - WIRED
www.wired.com › Business › Google
Jun 17, 2022 · In an interview with WIRED, the engineer and priest elaborated on his belief that the program is a person—and not Google's property.

(th)

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#10 2022-06-29 10:51:28

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re My Hacienda ...

Please take a look at the My Hacienda topic, and particularly at the Registry of plots ...

This is a work-in-progress, with the goal of defining a base set of 7800 specializations that would be needed to sustain a first tier level of  civilization on Mars, independent of Earth.

Building structures on Mars is just a small part of what is needed.

In his post, kbd512 has identified some of the needed facilities.

It seems to me your topic would make more progress if you had the title: "Sentient Humans Could Buld Martian Settlements"

(th)

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#11 2022-06-29 11:30:27

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Scott re #8

Thanks for your reply....

This gent is NOT "just" an engineer .... he is reported to be a religious practitioner of some kind....

(th)

If he is a "religious practitioner" then he probably has a political agenda.  If he wants to propose constitutional amendments that vest political rights in self-directed, sentient, artificially intelligent robots then I will be very likely to oppose such amendments.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#12 2022-06-29 11:50:24

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott Beach ... re topic ....

So! what is the purpose of your topic?

In the past, and for a long time, this forum was not "about" accomplishing anything except entertainment.

You are from that era.

I am interested in seeing measurable progress toward the Mars Society objectives.

While you were away, GW Johnson has authored two proposals which were submitted as official documents to Elon Musk and to Jeff Bezos.  In addition, two active members of the forum have given presentations for the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society.

Is your new topic set up to accomplish something, or is it intended for entertainment?

Entertainment is a valid purpose.  Much of current traffic in the forum qualifies as entertainment.

(th)

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#13 2022-06-29 13:15:15

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

Thomas:

Many years ago, I read Gerard K. O'Neill's 2081: A Hopeful View of the Human Future.  O'Neill described humanoid "household robots" that helped adults and children to accomplish the ordinary tasks that people do everyday. That is what I think about when I read about artificially intelligent robots, with pressure sensors in their soft, artificial skin (providing the robots with "feelings").  A robot like this might be trusted to pick up and hold a human infant, and to offer the infant a bottle full of warm milk.

I am not worrying that robots are going to become ruthless war machines, intent on destroying the human species.  In my vision of 2081, robots will be able to download thousands of pages of space settlement blueprints, and then rocket to the designated planet, and then build a complete settlement, drapes and air included.

I asked people to be "extravagant" because I want to know what infrastructure people now regard as the most desirable. 

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#14 2022-06-29 17:34:44

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re topic ...

You have received two long, thoughtful and information packed posts (by Mars_B4_Moon and kbd512).

I have reread the entire topic from the top to make sure, but it turns out you have not acknowledged those posts, or done anything with them..

Both represent a significant investment of precious time and energy in supporting your topic.

How do you intend to use those gifts?

Are you thinking (perhaps?) of writing an article for publication in a main stream media?

That would be a worthy outcome.

(th)

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#15 2022-06-29 18:43:24

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,761

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

So, we will be getting an AI that has morels, ethics and information to allow for human interaction as well as what humans require.
I can see it now when the human says but I wanted the Taj Mahal but you built me a shack in the dirt.

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#16 2022-06-29 19:39:51

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

SpaceNut wrote:

...but you built me a shack in the dirt.

The moral of this lesson is that you should have purchased your construction robots from Norway, not Zimbabwe.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#17 2022-06-29 20:12:22

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Scott re topic ...

You have received two long, thoughtful and information packed posts (by Mars_B4_Moon and kbd512).

(th)

I changed the title of this topic from "Sentient" to "Humanoid", as you suggested.  "Sentient" was just too confusing.  People were interpreting "sentient" as meaning that a robot has desires and emotions (i.e., feelings).  In contrast, I was thinking that robots would have many touch sensors in their "skin" and could interact with humans in a very gentle manner.

By the way, I have read Molecules of Emotion, by Candace Pert.  She provides excellent explanations about the biophysics of human emotions.  The Japanese are building household robots that display "emotional" responses on their lifelike faces, but such displays are not accompanied by biophysical events inside of the robots.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#18 2022-06-29 22:30:32

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,218

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

Progress in robotics has certainly been impressive.  But are we really confident in our ability to construct an AI that can perform complex operations with minimal human input?  That seems to me to be a technical stretch.  Maybe I am just behind the times?  If we had people in orbit around Mars, then teleoperated machines is certainly a credible option.  It would be slow and cumbersome attempting to control machines from Earth.

A few minor technical points:

(1) The AHR operates at too low a temperature to make efficient use of S-CO2 turbomachinery.  The MIT study indicated a minimum temperature of about 450°C.  The AHR peak operating temperature will be closer to 250°C.  So a steam cycle will be needed to generate power.  I will attempt to find the MIT reference.

(2) Heavy water as primary circuit coolant and moderator is desirable due to superior neutron economy, but not essential.  We could use light water and increase enrichment levels accordingly.  Light water allows a smaller critical radius.

(3) The power consumption figure of 100kWe per capita appears to be heavily driven by the energy requirements of food production using artificial lighting.  We could instead rely on natural light in above ground greenhouses.  Energy requirements would still be high, but would be dominated by low grade heat rather than electricity.  Greenhouses could actually provide a heat sink for our AHRs, effectively solving two problems at once.

(4) The AHR can make use of a stainless steel fuel or oxidiser tank from a Starship.  We have discussed that before.  It will also need a heat exchanger.

(5) There is the question of which components we attempt to make on Mars and what should be imported from Earth.  The alternator and pumps would almost certainly need to be imported.  The turbine is something that would be difficult to make on Mars.  We coukd make some sort of steam driven piston engine from Mars produced cast iron.  The same is true for the condenser and secondary side pipework.  We will be operating at relatively low pressures.  So iron produced on Mars could be used to make most secondary side components.  For the first reactor, it may be easier to import a naval steam turbo-electric system from Earth.  These are typically rated in the 10-100MWe, a good fit for our first nuclear power system.  When the base is fully established and we have workshops set up, we can begin making components on Mars.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-29 23:05:53)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#19 2022-06-29 22:32:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,761

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

Human-robot-AI teamwork accelerates regenerative medicinePublic

Some would not be so human in appearance but are uniquely built for a purpose.

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#20 2022-06-30 04:55:11

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

kbd512 wrote:

The final construction project will be habitable living space, also with radiation protection.
If robots can successfully complete all those task prior to human arrival, then that makes every other aspect of colonization much simpler and more assured of success.  That seems like a pretty tall order for any construction crew, especially a crew of robots who learn as they build.

Many years ago when I first read of Robert Zubrin on the science forums and blogs the interwebs used to be a much more crazy place, a lot of sites were almost anarchy crazy like '4Chan'. Facebook and Instagram and Tiktok were not a thing, everything was a blog or geocities and there were bbs websites for everything, websites on anything would pop up before the post Y2K dot com crash  Theer were sickness forums science places and math and geology debate and bulletin boards would be more grounded but even there I noticed how political things were. People chated and wrote but they said they would avoid those Mars types and talking with Zurbin say he's 'impolite' or they would say avoid the Mars fanatics they are crazy people, he would make offensive historical comparisons like comparing exploration to the 'Age of Discovery' and the colonization period of the Americas. How offensive they said, I guess this was some kind of Cancel Culture or Orwellian Wrong Think before many of us started to see it?

Today we know Christopher Columbus was probably not the first guy to explore, not the first to go inside ships and to find foreign lands.  Vikings probably arrived in Canada, there is a site L'Anse aux Meadows from 1000 years ago. It's possible some Chinese ship might have arrived on the shore of California, there is a legend of Madoc, the folklore story of a Welsh prince who sailed to America in 1170, long before this Welsh guy some hunter Inuit, Eskimo, Aleut, Yupik nomad peoples probably just walked across regions in Siberia and Alaska and brought elements of DNA lineage, their culture and bloodline down all the way to Meso-Américas but nobody wrote down this history so their exploration, survival story is gone, it has been lost in time.

Roanoke island is a surviving story of the lost island colony but even though this event has been recorded in our modern history nobody is sure where the event took place. The Charlesbourg-Royal Fort in Canada became 'uninhabitable', Fort Caroline collapsed due to Native Attacks, Disease and Hunger, the Spanish of Fort San Juan also had disease and hunger but also fought not just with Natives but with other French colonialists, in recent times archeologists have dug up evidence to show some colonies got so desperate they resorted even to cannibalism. The United States America is in a much different position today, it has put men on the Moon and maybe soon with guys like Musk it can do the same again? Why rush to Mars, 2022 marks 50 years since the final mission of NASA's Apollo program. Without Machine and AI and Robot preparing the settlements it is possible humans on Mars will face the problems as  other failed colonies. In the long history of our planet Countries and Empires and Nation States come and go in the blink of an eye, the USA has been an impressive nation so let's hope the USA stays around a while yet, however if the United States rushes to go to Mars unprepared over time over the centuries people might not even know of the USA or if it ever had people in Space, the planet Mars and planet Earth will be around a long time.

In the foolish need to rush and do something incorrectly maybe all the success and failure it will fade into time and just be one of those lost legends like that Welsh King that maybe sailed somewhere, nobody knows. The important Political elections and the important media music film Pop icons of today, perhaps buried deep inside archeological mounds of garbage...who were the 'Beatles' they ask...'nobody knows for sure' the enlightened of the future would say...but today in our future our enlightened Earth of the 31st century knows from some broken bit of CDs and some old vinyl we have pieced it all together and concluded the Beatles were in fact a male dance band consisting of Justin Bieber, James Brown, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, Eric Clapton, Freddie Mercury but the music group had a dispute and some broke away to form a rival band and made a tv show called 'Monkey'. There will also be another big difference with the colonization of Mars, the regressive Left will not be able to accuse people of exploitation in colonization of Mars, there are no Native Martians to be exploited. However just because there is no animal or person on Mars does not mean you should waste resources to rush to send life there. Sometimes I would see opinions of how big things like ancient Pyramids might have given ancient people an identity and a godly type Ruler to get behind they have once almost Bankrupted Egypt, so will the Moon and Wars be recorded as expensive Mega Projects that bankrupted forgotten countries and nations? I am also critical of the Moon plans because I also believe it is not an inviting place. If Mars is more inviting as inviting as the Americas was in 1492, maybe building a city on the Moon would be worse than building a city in Antarctica, Death Valley, Danakil Desert Ethiopia, the red hot Kilauea volcano in Hawaii, the top of Mt Everest. On our Earth the  skeletal remains from space, we see results of failed Megaprojects the mind-bogglingly complex tasks that became economic failure. The failed St Francis Dam, the big expensive roads to nowhere that Hawaiians and Japanese do not drive, an almost worthless super expensive archipelago of 300 artificial islands off the coast of the Dubai Arab Emirates, that big expensive Hotel in North Korea, the Soviet Russian undertakings to change river and lake of ships are visible from space in the middle of what is now a Kazakhstan/Uzbekistan desert. Those 'panem et circenses' spectacles the Sportsball plans to keep the masses entertained and Olympic Games that Nearly Bankrupted Their Entire Host Countries. Should our Moon also become a graveyard for old failure of colony projects, for abandoned ships and failed human colony. This Moon of ours does it truly need humans towns? just because it is there does not mean people should go there and build a city, the harsh Moon can waste resources that can be better put to building stuff on Mars.

Sometimes you have projects that were super expensive but in the end are not failures, they achive their goals and make great contributions, perhaps an expensive canal for trade or the Hubble or the success of JWST’s journey will be examples of this. If there will be a town on the Moon why not mostly populate it with bots, why not have Robots prepare a more habitable and livable Mars?

tahanson43206 wrote:

To use the term "sentient" in this context seems (to me at least) to be asking for trouble.

If you decide to proceed with "sentient" robots, you will have to deal with the ethical issues of enslaving "people". You can avoid all that by stopping short of sentience.

(th)


What I also find interesting is that we might soon have AI rights Lawyers as they have Animal Right Law.


Even if AI is not alive, it has come to the level where it is now possible to trick human engineers to believe it is alive and that by itself is a very interesting event


Some more news and debate on the Blake Lemoine event

Opinion: Bad things will happen when the AI sentience debate goes mainstream
https://thenextweb.com/news/opinion-bad … mainstream
'AI is more dangerous as a puppet than a robot

I personally don't believe it is so bad, it seems AI can now be used as a Doctor or Companionship, think of the benefits to fight depression, lonely old people in homes or some guy trying to fight Cabin Fever as he goes through a long winter in Antarctica, animals themselves the Kitten the Puppy the Foal, Calf might have an A.I companion.

SpaceNut wrote:

I can see it now when the human says but I wanted the Taj Mahal but you built me a shack in the dirt.

When I see a Mosque even if part of it is impressive part of me still thinks what a disgusting religious cult and sees it as a cancerous boil on planet Earth. This is a culture that has little issues in attacking others and little world outrage when they bomb "Buddhas" 570 AD pre-islamic wonders from Afghanistan, today Western media is so insane or treasonous that it will make excuses for the islamists who bomb and shoot cartoonists. They inside this culture have also caused outright destruction across Arabia and North Africa done far more to smash their own heritage into dust, destroying ancient wonders far worse than damage done by Wars of George Bush and the US invasion of Iraq, the islamic destruction on its own is a far slower and more destructive death over a longer period of time.

I don't see the Taj Mahal as a wonder, I see it as a symbol of old conquests in the Uttar Pradesh region and maybe as a design it is an impressive building. Whenever the Turkmenistani Oghuz Turkmen Kara-Qarakhanid Turkish mohammedans arrived in Constantinople the first thing they did to any previous religions was destroy their temples or change them into jihadist places of worship, in the Balkans today they have done the same even today? The Taj building gives impression but the horde of islamics did not spread their religion by kisses and flowers, they invaded while Hindu Indians began naval gazing, thinking Cows came from some sky fairy kingdom in the clouds, Indian religiosity philosophical exploration and obsession with sexuality and the Kama Sutra and old Sanskrit text on eroticism, the Hindu Indian culture turning inward with its own superstition and temples is perhaps what lfet them unprepared for the invasive packs of attackers. At this time as India explored its joys the islamic horde would invade, the Persian Iranian, the Arab, the Mongolid islamist, the Deski Pakistani islamist coverts attack, it was an impressive building built by a Mughal but it is still a Mosque and behind that postcard picture you see like a stage backdrop today it is trash that surrounded around the sides and Taj’s back, plastic bags, open human sewage defecation on the streets and garbage. If someone asked AI to build a 'Taj Mahal' and instead Artificial-Intelligence built a shack I would say 'Well done AI' you are more intelligent than us humans because you didn't proliferate the jihadist Moongod demonic sickness of islam, also you did a good job by leaving out the trash and garbage ;D

Some ask if Robots should be part of military some want AI to be encouraged to believe in something value, to be given some form of morals or ethics. Will A.I believe in something, what will it think of its creator, what indeed will it think of superstitions, temples and human religion?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-30 05:13:14)

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#21 2022-06-30 05:21:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re topic !!!

Thanks for changing the title!

There is more to this action on your part than (I suspect) you realize!

Until very recently, in the absence of deep knowledge of how FluxBB works, we (admins and members alike) thought that titles could not be changed.

It is only recently that it was discovered that the title can be changed if the creator of a topic edits post #1.

I am delighted to see that the topic has attracted interest of substantial contributors.

Mars_B4_Moon's reflection on the implications of Ai (sentient or not) was inspired by your topic.

I ** would ** like for you to try to acknowledge at least the first posts by those who respond to your initiative.

I am guessing that you see your role as launching a topic and leaning back to watch the fun.

I am interested in seeing progress toward measurable goals on behalf of the Mars Society.

In the free-for-all environment of the forum, it is sometimes difficult to identify progress from noise.

You have an opportunity to direct the flow, and to expand upon suggestions provided by members.

Yesterday my work with old posts brought me face-to-face with your correspondence with US officials about the harm caused by spanking.

That was a subject you pursued with vigor.

It had nothing to do with the Mars Society.

Please try to focus your energy in support of Dr. Zubrin and his decades of efforts to promote the Mars Settlement proposition.

In the past you've had a very tolerant forum management.  In fact, SpaceNut is ** still ** here, and RobertDyck is still here. 

kbd512 is both tolerant and hugely supportive, as you have seen with his post.

My recommendation is you concentrate on the post by kbd512, and give it the close attention it deserves.

I am NOT so tolerant of wasting my time (I can't speak for others) with extraneous discussion that has nothing to do with the mission of the Society.

If there is something you want me to read, from your long chain of posts in your three incarnations, please let me know.  I don't have time to read the entire archive, but am willing to read  the "best of" posts you may recommend.

(th)

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#22 2022-06-30 10:15:10

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Scott Beach re new topic ...

What might sentient robots do, if confronted with a human wanting to give them "instructions" ???

The robots would listen carefully and then they would carry out their instructions.  If they did not do so they would be returned to the manufacturer and a full refund of the purchase price would be demanded.

Manufacturing defective robots would lead to bankruptcy.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#23 2022-06-30 11:14:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re #22

Is there any risk that the robots you are imagining could misunderstand your instructions?

You and the robots would be using the same language ... all languages contain ambiguity.

I have no idea how you might have spent your years of active service.

Your post ** might ** be interpreted as suggesting you have NO experience programming anything.

This is NOT a criticism! Most humans have NO experience programming anything.

However, those who do program for a living, or for academic reasons, or just for personal reasons tend to have acquired some humility.

I sure have!  A perfect example just happened.

I am using a system command that is designed (and advertised) to load data into the system clipboard.

The system clipboard exists on every computer and in every operating system... it is a shared resource that allows you (or anyone) to copy text from one application and paste it into another.

The documentation I was provided by the manufacturer said that the command I wanted to use would load the clipboard with data.

When I applied the command, exactly as specified, the clipboard ended up empty.

Thanks to Google, and to the generosity of other programmers who had already encountered this quirk, I learned that the command I wanted to use would ONLY work if another command were issued first.

The  manufacturer's documentation included the preparatory command, but NOWHERE in the provided documentation was a caution that the preparatory command was needed.

My advice to you, if you take delivery of one of Elon's forthcoming humanoid AI robots, is to make sure the robot ** really ** understands what you want done!

The folks who are programming war machines right now in Europe, on ** both ** sides, are depending upon autonomous systems to carry out their tasks with utmost precision.

The same is true of those who are programming autonomous cars, drones and ballistic missiles.

Once you push GO (or say GO) your instructions will be executed with precision.

If you made an error, or if you used voice commands that were NOT understood, the program will execute with precision.

Regards,

(th)

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#24 2022-06-30 18:32:17

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 177

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Scott re #22

Is there any risk that the robots you are imagining could misunderstand your instructions?

(th)

YES!

I have worked as an electrician.  I can report that the blueprints for some very large commercial jobs were so awful that we derisively referred to those blueprints as "cartoons".  From one day to the next, we had to negotiate with plumbers and carpenters and Heating/Ventilation/and Air Conditioning (HVAC) installers so that we could install electrical systems approximately where they were supposed to go.  We rewrote the blueprints as we went along.  It was often obvious to us that the people who drafted the blueprints were total morons.  That is why a human job supervisor would probably have to be present while a job site was under construction by human workers and/or robots.

I took a class in computer programming during my undergraduate studies.  I wrote programs in BASIC and enjoyed doing so.  It was very gratifying to see the printer produce reports that were exactly what my program prescribed.

Scott


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#25 2022-06-30 18:48:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,009

Re: Humanoid Robots Could Build Martian Settlements

For Scott re #24

Thanks for the word picture of a construction site, and how humans can deal with missing or incorrect specifications for work to be done.

Your experience with BASIC is shared by many folks who lived through that exciting time. 

If you would like to build something with this topic, I will try to help, and you have seen generous support by others. You're taking on a more difficult challenge than I think you realize.  You should be prepared to deal with missing or incorrect data as you did on the job.

You've been given some suggestions for facilities needed on Mars.  The humanoid robots you send to the job site won't have convenient humans to handle problems, so rehearsal on Earth with near-matched conditions would seem advisable.

Your blueprints need to be nearly perfect by the time your work force arrives at the job site.

Your experience with BASIC may have misled you a bit.  it sounds as though you never made a mistake.

If that is the case, you were an exceptional student.

Not every student is able to start with a blank sheet of paper and write a program that runs the first time.

It seems likely to me that if you had pursued programming a bit further, you might have made an error.

When you make an error with a computer,. a possible consequence is nothing appears in the output.  However, an infinite loop can print output until the  printer exhausts it's supply, and the lab manager comes over to investigate.

Another example of an infinite loop will consume machine cycles forever, until the lab manager kills the job.

Unlike you, I have found an astonishing number of ways to make mistakes, and since I am still actively programming in several languages, I discover new ways to make mistakes almost every day.

(th)

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