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#1076 2017-09-28 17:58:03

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,034
Website

Re: Politics

GW Johnson wrote:

I'd like to see us carry this out with an Earth-penetrating nuke exploded under the foundations of the government complex in Pyongyang.  That way we topple the regime with no invasion and without civilian mass casualties (like Hiroshima and Nagasaki).  I fear we have no such weapon.  Which means we do a city-buster on top of that complex.  Either way,  it's a nuclear strike,  and so they have to strike first,  else we be the villains for the rest of history.  Given that Kim Jong Un is the head bully in a society organized by bullying the weak,  then that triggering attack is inevitable.  We just don't know when,  or precisely where.  But when it comes, and it will,  we must destroy him.  Now that he has the nuclear missiles,  diplomacy is rendered hopeless.

I disagree. I don't think the government of North Korea is stupid enough to mount a nuclear attack on anyone. Nuclear weapons have to be reserved for retaliation. Nuclear first strike would equal suicide. The US is just too strong, don't poke that bear.

However, according to Wikipedia, the US started development of "earth penetrating" mini-nukes in 2003. Congress revoked funding for that in 2004. However, Donald Trump announced he would update the nuclear arsenal. So expect that such development has resumed.
BBC 2003: Mini-nukes on US agenda
Wikipedia: Nuclear bunker buster

Donald Trump tweeted that his first executive order was to update nuclear weapons. It wasn't his first order, but I think he did sign an executive order to do that.

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#1077 2017-09-28 19:37:22

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Politics

Terraformer:

If you look closely at what I wrote,  I very specifically said we should NOT strike first,  or else be regarded as the villains forevermore.  What I did not say was that I have no confidence in Trump not to screw that up.  But it is true:  I do not trust him not to screw that up. 

RobertDyck:

There is a rather vast difference between what you believe and what the North Korean regime believes.  You and I share the belief that nuclear war is to be avoided if possible.  They do not share that belief. 

The sob story about being deposed if they give up their nukes is just that:  a lie designed to make them more credible.  Look at actions,  not words.  Not once in 64 years since the end of the Korean War have we tried to overthrow that ugly regime in any way,  shape,  or form. While they have shelled South Korean towns and sunk South Korean ships.  They have killed.  We did not. 

They will eventually bomb something unacceptable (more likely conventionally,  at least initially) while testing our resolve to see how far they can push us.  That's just what bullies do.  That's the trigger.  We've seen it before.  His given name was Adolf. 

As for nuke penetrators,  I hope we have them.  But I doubt that we do.  An item being developed is NOT an operational weapon. 

The fallout containment with such a weapon is not by any means perfect,  but it is far better than a low air burst,  and far,  far lower than a surface burst.  The point is to destroy the giant complex with Kim and all his government within.  If we can do that without destroying the entire city,  so much the better. 

But we must take advantage of the fueling delay.  Once they have solid propellant instant-fire ICBM's,  this strategy becomes untenable.  So far,  I cannot think of any other. 

Antius:

I cannot speak as to what you wrote,  as I am totally in the dark about that.  But I hope things change for the better for you and your fellow Britons.  It does not sound good.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-09-28 19:57:19)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#1078 2017-09-29 07:29:01

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 973

Re: Politics

"As for nuke penetrators, I hope we have them.  But I doubt that we do.  An item being developed is NOT an operational weapon."

When one uses such devices, it is greatly advantageous to make it look like an accident.

Wait until North Korea launches a ballistic missile and then target the facility with a cruise missile armed with a low-yield nuclear warhead during launch, preferably from a submerged hunter-killer submarine off the coast.  That way, it looks like an operational nuclear missile test that went wrong.

Even the most oppressive dictator will struggle to maintain support for a programme after a nuclear 'accident' like that.

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#1079 2017-09-29 07:37:38

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 973

Re: Politics

GW Johnson wrote:

Antius:
I cannot speak as to what you wrote,  as I am totally in the dark about that.  But I hope things change for the better for you and your fellow Britons.  It does not sound good.

They have already passed laws that require internet service providers to keep records of everything their customers do online.  I expect an outright ban on VPNs will not be far behind.  Right now, they are attempting to force internet companies to provide loopholes and back doors in internet encryption, so that there is no place that can be secret from them.

None of this seems to ring any alarm bells in the minds the UK public.  The worst thing about all of this is just how few people are prepared to stand up and say how absolutely crazy and sinister it is.  The media pretend it isn't happening.  Only a small minority of people seem to care about it at all.  I am shocked by how complacent people are and how easily they are enslaved.  Where the hell is the modern day equivalent of Thomas Paine?

Last edited by Antius (2017-09-29 07:39:26)

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#1080 2017-09-29 16:25:29

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,179

Re: Politics

GW,

Diplomacy is never hopeless as long as our representatives and their representatives are willing to try.  If diplomacy fails, then our military needs to be ready to continue politics through other means.  Our military options need to remain viable by properly funding our military.  When a situation goes from bad to worse, as it frequently does when our politicians fail us, we rely heavily on our military to get the job done.

We should maintain a "Just Say No!" policy on nation building, pointless wars of attrition, new military bases, and any other military operations that do not have clearly defined mission success objectives.  After success has been achieved, it's then time to leave.

If we nuke North Korea, China has already stated that they'll respond in kind.  Using nuclear weapons is not a viable option.  Quite frankly, it's never an option.  The use of the first two nuclear weapons was awful enough.  The next time humanity uses nuclear weapons should be to stop an incoming asteroid that would otherwise wipe out life on Earth as we know it.

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#1081 2017-09-29 16:43:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Glad you stop in to post kbd512 about the "Aid that was already staged on Puerto Rico before the hurricane hit" and what was being deployed by the Navy to begin getting help to the people. The fact that the Navy is there to support thousands of FEMA and number of Seabees pls the likes of all other branches in attendance the efforts to render aid will go along ways to give comfort to those hurt the most. So true that there will be no cajun navy or large vehicles to help with any of this.

Of course clearing the entry into any harbor or landing would be a plus as well as cutting a road from the coast inland is a means to get a clear path especially along existing roads for those on foot to get easy access to the aid that has arrived.

I know what it is like to carry just 2 gallons of water and food for the days means just 2 miles one way up hill so the easier the walking is the better for those trying to get what is needed for the families. I did this when I had no vehicle from my home in fall through spring until I was able to afford one. So while the Navy can produce the amounts of water stated for the people there is a big but in light that all containers for getting it are most likely gone so what will they carry it in?

The argue about air or sea is better to get the supplies to the people is moot just use all capability possible. So getting people out to the outlying area needs people in greater numbers that what is sent so far. To give help we will need to make even temporary habitats for all of these to stay in as well. Aka tent cities....

The people could even be those being deported that would be willing to work for the citizenship or papers to allow them re-entry sooner to be able to return to there own families.

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#1082 2017-09-29 20:49:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

After criticism, acting homeland security chief admits humanitarian situation in Puerto Rico 'is not satisfactory'
9,000 cargo containers filled with necessary supplies have arrived at a port in San Juan but have yet to be distributed to those in need.
Puerto Rico to get aid from the Navy's 900-foot long floating hospital, the USNS Comfort which can hold as many as 65 civil service mariners and 1,215 Navy medical personnel, left Norfolk, Virginia, today to help bring relief to the U.S. territory devastated by Hurricane Maria but at maximum speed of about 20 miles per hour, up to a week to sail to the island.
Hearing a plea for help a CEO uses private jet to deliver supplies to Puerto Rico nursing home

More hate and racism showing its head after Irma Yellow wristbands, segregation for Florida homeless
from the others, denied cots and food, deprived of medication refills and doctors' visits, or otherwise ill-treated during the evacuation.

Power systems that use poles are going to be damaged by the sheer size of these huricanes so isn't it time to change it.

hurricane-maria-virgin-islands-2-rt-jt-170929_4x3_608.jpg

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#1083 2017-09-30 11:08:22

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Politics

Kbd512 and I quite agree about a policy of no more nation-building.  But that is not what has been happening,  repeatedly,  since Vietnam.  Politicians have really been very thick-headed about that.  Because they don't have to go help fight themselves.  Maybe they should.

I looked online about nuclear bunker-buster efforts.  There were some based around the mod 11 version of the B-61 bomb,  but funding for this stuff disappeared by 2005 or 2006.  So I don't think we have one.  I suppose a mass raid of those 4700-lb penetrators might accomplish most of what we need done,  but it would be really hard to mount such a mass raid as a near-simultaneous event.  That's a big building. 

Power poles are easy to put back up.  It would help survivability some,  to use half the spacing,  although very little can really be done to ensure survival in 100+ mph hurricane winds.   Putting the wires underground is far more expensive in terms of wire type and conduit requirements,  and is still subject to flooding problems,  especially in hurricane-induced mass rain events or storm surge events.  Much more expensive to dig up and repair,  too.   They’re probably better off with wires on poles. 

Kbd512:  I hope you have pretty well got your recovery done.  Some parts of Houston look pretty good,  others not so much. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-09-30 11:09:48)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#1084 2017-09-30 17:40:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Hurricane Maria a reminder of 'second-class' status for some

New York Times poll that showed more than half of Americans don't realize that Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory — and that its residents are U.S. citizens. Puerto Ricans have been recognized as U.S. citizens for a century. A majority of them — roughly 5 million — live in the United States, while an estimated 3.4 million live on the island. Puerto Ricans living on the mainland can vote for president in the general election every four years, yet residents of the island cannot, nor do they have voting representation in Congress.

Many Puerto Ricans share that view — a sentiment reinforced by what critics say has been a slow federal response to the humanitarian crisis that descended on Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria devastated the island.

"The response from Congress ... has been almost as if Puerto Rico did not exist," said Jose Cruz, a political scientist at the University at Albany-State University of New York. His mother and sister live on the island.

President Donald Trump's response "has been inadequate," Cruz said. "He should have been there last week. Puerto Rico is not a priority."

FEMA, the agency heading relief efforts, has sent at least 150 containers filled with relief supplies to the port of San Juan since the storm struck.

Trump sets refugee cap for 2018 at 45,000
The U.S. welcomed 84,995 refugees in fiscal year 2016

What I am not reading thou about these refugee's is how we are going to vet them and how are we going to process them to becoming citizens which is the end goal for those that stay.....other wise send them back.....

If you are following the rules and making progress to become citizens then giving the  Immigrants line up to renew work permits as program ends camping out as early as 3 a.m. just to be able to have another two years of safety.

Immigration Raids Target Hundreds in 'Sanctuary' Cities
ICE Arrests Nearly 500 In Massive Crackdown On Sanctuary Cities from 42 different counties for alleged violations of federal immigration laws.

The operation, dubbed “Safe City,” targeted undocumented immigrants with criminal convictions, pending criminal charges, gang affiliations or those who have fled and re-entered the country following a previous deportation, the agency said on Thursday.

I am ok with this action as it does what we want it to do....

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#1085 2017-09-30 18:44:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

44 slides
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/hurric … mber-2017/

True form bad mouthing those in need has resulted in Puerto Ricans fire back at Trump for critical tweets

"I'm amazed that he has the gall to say Puerto Ricans expect everything to be done for them," said Abner Breban of Atlanta, who started a Facebook group to raise money for relief. "They are working exhaustively to lift themselves up. We are citizens. We pay taxes. We serve in the military."
Hurricane Maria struck Puerto Rico 10 days ago, killing at least 16 people. Federal Emergency Management Agency official Alejandro de la Campa said only 5% of electricity had been restored in the island. He said 33% of the telecommunications infrastructure is back up and close to 50% of water services have been restored.


Teamsters organize truckers to move supplies in Puerto Rico big challenge for the recovery effort is simply getting supplies and personnel to places that need them. With the big challenge for the recovery effort is simply getting supplies and personnel to places that need them.

Major U.S. labor unions are organizing truck drivers to help with relief efforts in Puerto Rico as the island continues to grapple with the devastation wrought by Hurricane Maria last week. But there is more than just Puerto Rico in the Carrabian area as The US Virgin Islands are struggling to recover from the storms, too

The humanitarian crisis in Puerto Rico grips the country, but the destruction from the storms was widespread, and the US Virgin Islands are facing their own lengthy recovery.

FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers are proving residents with blue tarpaulin and other materials as part of Operation Blue Roof, Topp said, so some can live in their homes as a temporary solution. According to FEMA, as of Thursday there were seven shelters throughout the islands housing 396 residents. That number is steadily declining, Julio Rhymer, executive director for the Virgin Islands Water and Power Authority (WAPA), recognizes that Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, are struggling from being hit by the hurricanes, but he wants "to make sure the Virgin Islands doesn't get forgotten in the restoration process."
After Hurricane Irma pummeled St. John and St. Thomas, St. Croix was mercifully left with about 90% power. But two weeks later, Hurricane Maria arrived to change that, decimating the island with the capabilities to support the others.

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#1086 2017-10-01 06:41:25

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,506
Website

Re: Politics

Do Puerto Ricans pay federal taxes? I don't know how this territory business works.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#1087 2017-10-01 07:15:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

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#1088 2017-10-01 08:12:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Protesting during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner" began last season when Colin Kaepernick, then a quarterback with the San Francisco 49ers, declined to stand as a way to bring attention to police treatment of blacks and to social injustice.

Protests during the Anthem does not equal unpatriotic, nor does the burning of the flag, nor cutting it up to make a loin cloth or shash and many other such acts. But targetting those that do will only create the next teir of those that will become terrorists and they will be amoung us.

The flag and anthem mean loyalty to the government. Six in ten Republicans feel it does. Democrats are less likely to say so.

Relatively few players had demonstrated before Trump's remarks. Last Sunday, more than 100 NFL players sat, knelt or raised their fists in defiance during the national anthem.

Texas high schoolers thrown off team for protest

Trump tweets anew about NFL players, national anthem protest

Democrats, Republicans divide over NFL protests, Trump comments - poll
nfl-poll-player-protest-0929.jpg

nfl-poll-trump-comments-0929.jpg

yougove-approval.jpg

nfl-poll-trump-is-trying-to-092.jpg

Last week Kneeled during the Anthem but this week they Monday Night Football: Cowboys kneel before national anthem with that seen continuing to the others that have plyed as well.

I do perfer this rather than during the playing of the athem as being more respectful. These teams learned along time ago that racism has no place if you want to win....

NFL player Delanie Walker says he received death threats over national anthem comments

This is a crime and they should be going after the perpetrators of this.

“First off, I’m going to say this: We’re not disrespecting the military, the men and women that serve in the Army. That’s not what it’s all about,” Walker told a reporter from USA Today. “If you look at most of the guys in here, I’ve been in the USO. I support the troops. This is not about that. It’s about equal rights, and that’s all everyone is trying to show, is that we all care about each other."

"The death threats that my family and I have received since my comments are heartbreaking. The racist and violent words directed at me and my son only serve as another reminder that our country remains divided and full of hateful rhetoric,"

"These words of hate will only fuel me in my efforts to continue my work reaching out to different community groups, listening to opposing voices, and honoring the men and women in the armed forces who risk their lives every day so that we may have this dialogue,"

Trump needs to be quelching the flames of racism and hate instead of fanning them into the next civil war....

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#1089 2017-10-01 11:38:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Residents of Vieques, Cut Off From the Rest of Puerto Rico, Plead for Help. This island is just seven miles off the coast of Puerto Rico, but Hurricane Maria storm that knocked out power, flattened homes, ripped out trees by the roots, and turned longtime residents into refugees its made it feel cut off from the entire world. FEMA Says Puerto Rico Recovery Making Progress, but Long Waits for Supplies Continue and that progress is being made in Puerto Rico to restore water, gasoline and communications to the hurricane-battered island.

Political "bickering" hinders Puerto Rico recovery, Sen. Marco Rubio warns

"Every minute we spend in the political realm bickering with one another over who's doing what, or who's wrong, or who didn't do right is a minute of energy and time that we're not spending trying to get the response right," Rubio said on "Face the Nation."

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-New York, says Puerto Rico relief effort has been "slow-footed" and "not adequate"

Schumer said the Puerto Rico response "needs the president to stop calling names, stop downgrading the motives of people who are calling for help." Schumer called the response "not good" and urged the deployment of more military troops to the area.

Retired Lieutenant General: While Trump Golfs, San Juan’s Mayor Is ‘Living On A Cot’, Army Lt. Gen. Jeff Buchanan arrived on the island Thursday after being appointed by the Pentagon to lead the relief effort there. So far, approximately 4,400 troops are on the island, Harvey was monumental in Texas because of the amount of flood damage but the impact here is completely different. It’s like an atomic bomb went off.

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#1090 2017-10-01 12:28:47

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,034
Website

Re: Politics

I would hope they don't make the same mistakes as Haiti after the earthquake. Some homes were destroyed, but others were damaged and still standing. Officials said on camera that those damaged would have to be torn down. I saw them on TV, many of those homes could be repaired. And those that couldn't, could be dismantled and construction material used to rebuild the home. But businessmen who want to sell stuff just don't want to think that way, they want to sell new construction material. But the worst of all was forcing people out of their homes, into a tent community outside the city.

The best place for people to be is their own homes. Help them repair. If utilities aren't working, then staying in their home is far better than some tent.

After hurricane Katrina, the Canadian navy provided assistance to New Orleans when no one else would. FEMA was debating what they should do, while the Canadian navy used navy helicopters to rescue people off roofs of houses under flood water, provided bottled water/food/medial supplies, used navy ship desalination equipment to make more water, and sent a navy hospital ship to provide medical assistance. (Yes, a Canadian navy hospital ship isn't as big or impressive as a US navy one. Avoiding that discussion.) Why can't FEMA do this? Isn't that their entire job?

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#1091 2017-10-04 20:18:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Aid Is Getting to Puerto Rico. Distributing It Remains a Challenge.

Inside a dark school sheltering families left homeless by landslides and hurricane winds, bottled water was getting so scarce on Monday that relief workers parceled out one small plastic cup to go with each person’s dinner of hot dogs, rice and beans and syrupy apricots.

“This is the ration,” Thomas Bosque, 60, whose roof was torn off in the storm, said, lifting his cup.

Some disaster experts say that while the military can be useful, it is not a cure-all in relief efforts, and that too many troops could overwhelm available resources in Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rican and federal officials said they had been pushing out the approximately five million meals and five million liters of water that had been delivered to the island of 3.4 million people, largely through an expanding network of 11 regional aid centers set up by the governor. But some local officials said they needed assistance commensurate with their populations — more than the three pallets of food and one pallet of water allotted per day.

“I received 10,000 meals so far, and we’re a city of 54,000,” Lornna Soto, the mayor of Cánovanas, said on Monday. “We need more water. We need more food.”

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#1092 2017-10-05 18:42:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

I hope that as many of you will read this very long article but its worth the read as it put the truth to words that are being distorted by others....
A landscaper's 'hire American' plan ended with bringing in Mexican workers to finish the job

visa program for seasonal workers, called H-2B visas was done away with and this is the problem now that businesses can not find people to work. Congress has reduced the number of available visas by nearly 30 percent from 2016, and President Trump’s promise to limit legal as well as illegal immigration and protect American workers has kead to this issue of not having the employees to do  the work.

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#1093 2017-10-06 17:53:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Undocumented Workers Are The Backbone Of Dairies. Will Trump Change That?

I was reminded today about these lyrics:

Immigration Man
Crosby & Nash

There I was at the immigration scene
Shining and feeling clean
Could it be a sin?
I got stopped by the immigration man
He says he doesn't know if he can.

Let me in,
Let me in, immigration man,
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Let me in, immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway. Hey hey
There he was with his immigration face
Giving me a paper chase
But the son was coming

Cause all at once he looked into my space
And stamped a number over my face
And it sent me running
Won't you let me in, immigration man
Can I cross the line and pray
I can stay another day
Won't you let me in, immigration man
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway.

Here I am with my immigration form
It's big enough to keep me warm
When a cold wind's coming
So go where you will
As long as you think you can
You'd better watch out, watch out for the man
Anywhere you're going.

Come on and let me in, immigration man,
Can I cross the line and pray
Take your fingers from the tray.

Let me in, irritation man,
I won't toe your line today
I can't see it anyway

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#1094 2017-10-08 17:07:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

Tesla And Puerto Rico Governor Agree On New Power Grid

Earlier this week, the Tesla founder said he believes Tesla could rebuild the country’s power grid with batteries and solar power, which would be far more sustainable. However, it would be a long-term effort opposed to a short-term remedy which is what the U.S territory needs at this point.

Musk asserted: “The Tesla team has [built solar grids] for many smaller islands around the world, but there is no scalability limit, so it can be done for Puerto Rico too. Such a decision would be in the hands of the PR govt, PUC, any commercial stakeholders and, most importantly, the people of PR.”

Tesla has done similar projects to provide power in Hawaii and American Samoa. However, Puerto Rico would be larger than the previous tasks.

This is a big deal for sure and one that will show the way to space as well....

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#1095 2017-10-09 12:27:26

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,179

Re: Politics

If this new PV farm is destroyed by the next hurricane in another 10 years like the last one was, I guess the tax payers will have to eat the cost of that bad decision like all the rest of their bad decisions.  The power is out in Puerto Rico because the power lines from the power plants were above ground and thus destroyed by hurricane force winds.  Their diesel and natural gas power plants and generators still work as well as they ever did.

Anyone who wants to make an island dependent upon fragile solar panels and wind turbines for power is either pure evil or so inept as to be criminally negligent.  Mr. Musk wants to help these Puerto Ricans over their next financial cliff by ensuring that their power plants are destroyed by the next major hurricane.

Here's some basic math for Puerto Ricans to consider:

above ground power lines + major hurricane = no more above ground power lines
photovoltaic panels + major hurricane = no more photovoltaic panels
wind turbine + major hurricane = no more wind turbines

When the force of the wind from a hurricane rips roofs right off of buildings like a tornado does, anything lighter than the roof, like solar panels, also gets torn down with the roof.

Here's what Puerto Rico's PV farm looked like after Hurricane Maria:

Photos | Hurricane hit Puerto Rico without power for weeks: Trump visits for survey

Look at Photo 10/11, which depicts the remnants of a PV farm on Puerto Rico.

Here's a link to what the PV farm in the US Virgin Islands looked like after Hurricane Maria:

US Virgin Islands in ruins from Hurricane Maria

Scroll down through the article and look at what a PV farm looks like after a major hurricane.

Can solar panels be made to withstand major storms?  Absolutely.  An airplane can also be made of steel and still fly if you put enough thrust behind it, but no airline in the world operates aircraft made from steel.  There are engineering reasons why airplanes are made to be as light as is technically feasible while still taking flight loads without being deformed or destroyed.  There's absolutely no engineering reason why solar panels can't be made to withstand bullets, except weight and cost.  If weight and cost didn't matter, then we'd never see a hurricane or tornado rip the roof off a house.  Look at the pictures from the articles I provided links to in order to see what happens in real life.

The amount of magical thinking, even from people with engineering degrees who should know better, is staggering.  Let's throw some more good money after bad and still fail to fix the most obvious problems, which would be the above-ground power lines and roofing inadequate to withstand hurricane force winds.

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#1096 2017-10-09 13:45:31

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,034
Website

Re: Politics

Hurricanes are occurring more frequently now. According to NOAA, total number of tropical storms has not increased, but the proportion that intensify to become hurricanes has.

I've point out global cooling from beginning of the industrial revolution of 1885 until 1970, then rapid global warming until year 2000. Based on reconstructed temperature from 1550 to 1855, and assuming that global temperature would have continued at that rate if humans hadn't messed with it, as of year 2000 the global temperature equalled what it would have been due to nature. At that point global warming dramatically slowed. Temperature of the lower stratosphere has been recorded from 1990 on: and it shows cooling from 1990 to 2010, then stabilized. My assertion is smoke and soot from coal burning blotted out the sun causing global cooling. Removing that pollution caused the natural temperature to be restored. Scientists point out that the temperature in 1994 was the same as before the industrial revolution of 1844. This means the amount of global warming during from 1994 to year 2000 was equal to what nature would have done from 1855 to year 2000; in other words 145 years of natural global warming condensed to 6 years. That makes it appear dramatic, but as of year 2000 the temperature was equal to what it would have been anyway. From year 2000 to late 2014, global warming was almost the pace of nature. It was so close to the pace of nature that you could say "good enough". In fact a few scientists published papers claiming global warming is over. But since late 2014, it appears to be back. But it takes 4 years of data, averaged, to get a clear measure of climate, so it's too early to say. Probably is back. So we have to do something, but we don't have to panic like the climate warriors claim.

My point is ocean surface water is now warming, while at the same time the lower stratosphere is colder. Hurricanes are a giant convection current from the ocean surface to the top of the troposphere where it touches the lower stratosphere. Warming the bottom while cooling the top at the same time? That means more hurricanes, and stronger hurricanes. Of course you could argue we probably had just as many hurricanes in the first half of the 1800s, before the industrial revolution caused global cooling. Was weather data collected back then? However, bottom line is we now have more hurricanes than the 1960s or '70s. Get used to it.

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#1097 2017-10-09 13:54:56

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 557

Re: Politics

I foresee a set of huge barges extracting heat from the ocean surface and dissipating it below the thermocline in some way. The delta T might be sufficient to run a Rankine cycle engine to generate power- probably only enough to provide the desired cooling service.

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#1098 2017-10-13 16:57:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Politics

From BFR discusion:

louis wrote:

As long he's building them in the USA, he will get the Trump stamp of approval I imagine, which is important.

Since Musk was on one of Trump's boards and left after issues of racism and such Musk will not care if he endorse the jobs or not....

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#1099 2017-10-14 04:49:24

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 557

Re: Politics

Well the USA would be one of the largest beneficiaries.
The cold water from below would need to be partially desalinated to ensure that it doesn't sink straight back down again.

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#1100 2017-10-14 10:59:22

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Politics

The original ocean thermal energy concepts were thermo-electric.  A two-junction thermocouple,  with one in the cold deep down and the other at the surface in the warm.  This generates a voltage.  Install enough of these,  and you can connect them for usable current. 

Instead,  a long tubular buoy structure could contain a heat pipe to bring the cold and the warm physically closer together.  At that point you install a heat engine to create electricity.  The Carnot efficiency is quite low at about 7%,  because the source and sink temperatures are not far apart.  So this is only just competitive with well-known-to-be-inefficient thermoelectric. 

The choice depends more upon convenience-of-construction and storm damage resistance,  than upon anything intrinsic.  The inefficiency is why nobody actually does this.  It has been seriously proposed and rejected for at least half a century that I know of.

As for the electric grid in Puerto Rico,  the best choice there is the same as the best choice here:  wires on poles.  Way lower capital cost to install,  much faster and cheaper to repair once downed.  It helps provide better storm damage resistance if you use shorter spans between the poles,  but nobody yet has clued into that.  Their problem in Puerto Rico is in part cultural as well as economic,  going back centuries.  It's that "manana" approach to life,  which is a big part of what got them into trouble going bankrupt. 

The power company on the island hadn't kept up with maintenance,  which made wires-on-poles even more vulnerable to hurricane damage,  plus their repair force is way-to-hell-and-gone too small to cope,  given the whole island got swept-over by the storm and destroyed.  Recent history says these events are becoming more frequent.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-10-14 11:12:13)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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