Should, Shouldn't, Couldn't...What we need to make on Mars...

louis · 2017-04-21 11:51:01

I am interested in developing a better understanding of ISRU possibilities on Mars.

Just wondered whether people would like to give their suggestions on things we should, shouldn't or couldn't (at least for the first three decades, let's say) make on Mars.

Here are some suggestions from me:

SHOULD

Oxygen, methane, polymers, iron, steel.

Gas cylinders. Gas tanks.

Rocket fuel.

Steel plate, steel wire.

Plastic plumbing parts.

Glass and glass panels.

Solar reflectors. Steam engines. Electricity generators (turbines).

Electrolysis equipment.

Electric motors.

Vehicles chassis, body, suspension and wheels.

Furniture, household wares, hygiene equipment.

Construction materials (bricks, cement, concrete, steel supports etc)

Copper wiring.

Basic clothing.

SHOULDN'T

Paper, ink, pens and pencils (not required as we will have laptops).

Carpets or curtains (can't think they would serve much purpose).

PV Panels , laptops and other computer equipment (theoretically could be done but probably not worth the effort).

Private vehicles (all vehicles will be serving a public purpose in this early stage).

Railways (not worth the effort).

Large earth moving equipment (not necesary).

Large cranes (not necessary - everything will be low rise).

Tarmac (not necessary - we won't be building metalled roads).

Wind turbines (not worth the effort).

Rockets (obviously quite a priority longer term but not worth the effort for the first 30years?)

COULDN'T

I am struggling here...but most medicines would probably be extremely difficult to replicate in the first 30 years because of production conditions as much as anything else . Likewise a lot of complicated medical equipment.

TV monitor screens?

Satellites?

Nuclear reactors?

RobertDyck · 2017-04-21 13:30:11

Toilet Paper
This depends on sewage processing technology. If the habitat uses a grey water system, then toilets would use a "Washlet", which is a bidet toilet seat. So that uses air, water and electricity instead of paper. However, if the habitat uses a composting toilet, then it doesn't use water. With a composting toilet normally you normally use special toilet paper that decomposes (composts) quickly. A composting toilet is simpler, but producing toilet paper as a disposable item? We shouldn't produce disposable items like that; they consume resources.

A composting toilet separates urine from feces at collection. That's key to reducing smell, and rapidly decomposing human waste. But washing your bottom removes feces, but it's liquid. One proposal would be that when the washlet is activated, a collection tray extends under your bottom. The dirty water is collected, evaporated, then concentrated waste dumped into the feces portion of the composting toilet. The evaporated water can be condensed, then used to water crops in a greenhouse.

So my conclusion is toilet paper goes under "Shouldn't".

louis · 2017-04-21 16:02:04

Isn't that quite common in Japan?

If not how about your own sponge on a stick...doing like the Romans did...but maybe disinfect it after use...

RobertDyck wrote:

Toilet Paper
This depends on sewage processing technology. If the habitat uses a grey water system, then toilets would use a "Washlet", which is a bidet toilet seat. So that uses air, water and electricity instead of paper. However, if the habitat uses a composting toilet, then it doesn't use water. With a composting toilet normally you normally use special toilet paper that decomposes (composts) quickly. A composting toilet is simpler, but producing toilet paper as a disposable item? We shouldn't produce disposable items like that; they consume resources.
A composting toilet separates urine from feces at collection. That's key to reducing smell, and rapidly decomposing human waste. But washing your bottom removes feces, but it's liquid. One proposal would be that when the washlet is activated, a collection tray extends under your bottom. The dirty water is collected, evaporated, then concentrated waste dumped into the feces portion of the composting toilet. The evaporated water can be condensed, then used to water crops in a greenhouse.
So my conclusion is toilet paper goes under "Shouldn't".

SpaceNut · 2017-04-21 16:13:04

While I think all of the list are possible it the timeline of importance to not only wanting an item but what must be done in order to be able to not only product the raw materials but the process equipment to be able to make it.

While toilet paper is light in mass going with wipes makes its intended use heavy but with the correct recycling process there is only the shipping issue to initially contend with until we are able to make either.

RobertDyck · 2017-04-21 17:22:38

louis wrote:

Isn't that quite common in Japan?

You realize recycling toilet paper means breaking it down to become part of compost. That is added to a garden as "soil amendment", which means both texture and fertilizer. Yes, the point of a composting toilet is to turn feces into something that can be added to soil of a garden. Then grow vegetables in it. Recycling toilet paper this way means you have to grow a fibrous plant, either trees or hemp or something like that, harvest them then crush to make paper. Including the greenhouse, it's quite intensive. The only reason TP is affordable on Earth is trees grow outdoors.

Yes, the washlet comes from Japan. Most houses in Tokyo are not connected to any form of city sewer system, they have a septic tank that has to be drained periodically by a "honey wagon" (North American term). Toilet paper clogs the septic tank, the length of time between emptying the tank with a giant vacuum hose is greatly extended by simply not using toilet paper. "Bidet" is a French invention, but the Japanese invented a toilet seat to act as a bidet, so they don't need a separate "appliance" in the bathroom. That's the washlet; their invention and very common in Japan.

louis wrote:

If not how about your own sponge on a stick...doing like the Romans did...but maybe disinfect it after use...

Romans stored their sponge on a stick in a bucket filled with vinegar. That means the wiped themselves with a wet sponge, dripping with vinegar. I don't think I would want to wipe my bottom with vinegar. If you ever have a hemorrhoids or a "fissure", the vinegar would sting badly. A washlet sounds far better.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-04-21 17:27:08)

louis · 2017-04-22 02:02:56

I guess in a country with so many earthquakes you can see why they might consider piped sewage a hostage to fortune!

Didn't know the Romans kept the sponges in vinegar - interesting!

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
Isn't that quite common in Japan?
You realize recycling toilet paper means breaking it down to become part of compost. That is added to a garden as "soil amendment", which means both texture and fertilizer. Yes, the point of a composting toilet is to turn feces into something that can be added to soil of a garden. Then grow vegetables in it. Recycling toilet paper this way means you have to grow a fibrous plant, either trees or hemp or something like that, harvest them then crush to make paper. Including the greenhouse, it's quite intensive. The only reason TP is affordable on Earth is trees grow outdoors.
Yes, the washlet comes from Japan. Most houses in Tokyo are not connected to any form of city sewer system, they have a septic tank that has to be drained periodically by a "honey wagon" (North American term). Toilet paper clogs the septic tank, the length of time between emptying the tank with a giant vacuum hose is greatly extended by simply not using toilet paper. "Bidet" is a French invention, but the Japanese invented a toilet seat to act as a bidet, so they don't need a separate "appliance" in the bathroom. That's the washlet; their invention and very common in Japan.
louis wrote:
If not how about your own sponge on a stick...doing like the Romans did...but maybe disinfect it after use...
Romans stored their sponge on a stick in a bucket filled with vinegar. That means the wiped themselves with a wet sponge, dripping with vinegar. I don't think I would want to wipe my bottom with vinegar. If you ever have a hemorrhoids or a "fissure", the vinegar would sting badly. A washlet sounds far better.

kbd512 · 2017-04-22 03:01:40

1. Oxygen and Nitrogen
2. Water
3. Construction materials for permanent shelter
4. Food
5. Clothing

Anything else after that is a function of abundance and ease of manufacture and/or storage.

If there's a way to construct a stirling engine and a simple electric generator, like a homopolar generator, on Mars using a solar array and a tank of molten salt, then the means to produce electrical power should rate high on the list of "nice to have" items.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-04-22 08:41:21

My own specialty would seem a candidate for early Mars development: a chemical industry will arise out of necessity. Given the CO2 atmosphere availability, a wide range of products will become available. Plasticware will be prevalent, since polymers can be produced from the atmosphere. Structural materials will be polymer based. Clothing replacements will be polymer based. Windows for greenhouses will be polymeric, and visors for protective wear will be polymeric. Even some pharmaceuticals will be produced through ISRU; think: Solid Phase Organic synthesis, which is polymer-supported chemistry.

SpaceNut · 2017-04-22 16:03:15

Many of the polymers will also be possible from recycling of waste packaging as well.
Nice short list kbd512 which under:
1. "Oxygen and Nitrogen" should be a part of capture and processing or air of soils/ rocks that we store any other buffer gasses as such for future use. This would include C0 as part of oxygen creation.
2. "Water" as a surplus from sabatier reactor for sure but also from atmospheric compression, soil processing ect with create the expansion for the future as stored for later use.
3. "Construction materials for permanent shelter" is a plus as we search for chemical deposits that would yield to other items to create from, Digging in just the right place has the added bone in that the energy needed has already been used to get what we needed from the hole.
4. "Food" is the ability to be able to reduce costs to ship it from Earth, to be able to have fresh produce and to be able to plan for the future of mars.
5. "Clothing" while it can be produced via plastics of quite an number of choices the real bonus is again more mass not shipped from Earth for these items will lead to growth of Mars.

As each tier is reached the mass of what we ship to mars from earth also needs to change for greater ability to mine, process but also to have the power to do so and the transportation to move it such that we can make use of the raw materials as we need to.

louis · 2017-04-22 17:01:26

Sounds like we are returning to the worst of the 1960s - nylon shirts, nylon underpants and nylon socks!

I am sure some medicinal products could be produced on Mars but many medicinal products have a very complex genesis.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

My own specialty would seem a candidate for early Mars development: a chemical industry will arise out of necessity. Given the CO2 atmosphere availability, a wide range of products will become available. Plasticware will be prevalent, since polymers can be produced from the atmosphere. Structural materials will be polymer based. Clothing replacements will be polymer based. Windows for greenhouses will be polymeric, and visors for protective wear will be polymeric. Even some pharmaceuticals will be produced through ISRU; think: Solid Phase Organic synthesis, which is polymer-supported chemistry.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-04-22 17:12:19

Polyester slacks, polyester socks, polyester shirts with a little alligator on them...uh...forget the alligator. Not a native Martian species.

IanM · 2017-04-22 19:31:54

Appliances - depends on the appliance, but I think most would be too complicated to produce for the first 30 or so years. This means that the appliances would be imported from Earth and as such the types of plugs and sockets used by the colony would depend greatly on from where on Earth the colonists originally hail from.

elderflower · 2017-04-23 04:00:48

Might just be a crocodile, Oldfart. Apparently you have to look closely at their teeth. Who found that out?

louis · 2017-04-23 04:23:16

I believe Noah Hands discovered that fact.

elderflower wrote:

Might just be a crocodile, Oldfart. Apparently you have to look closely at their teeth. Who found that out?

Last edited by louis (2017-04-23 04:23:32)

kbd512 · 2017-04-23 05:20:04

SpaceNut,

For clothing, I was thinking of growing hemp. It grows like a weed. Hehe. In all seriousness, natural hemp clothing is quite durable. We'd need a decorticator.

This is the kind that a commercial operation would use that weigh 1000kg and require 7kWe to 11kWe:

EnviroTextiles LLC Hemp Decorticator

I bet we could easily cut that weight in half by using aluminum alloy instead of steel and permanent magnet motors.

SpaceNut · 2017-04-23 08:29:53

All baby steps leading to reduced resupply from Earth and sustainable living on Mars.

Hemp would come as a subset of 1 oxygen making and 4 non food production but only if we have the excess to provide 3 water supply to make it happen as the only other purpose is for soil making out of waste recovery and only if we have unused space to plant the crop within.

So what other plants make sense to use this principle on for leveraging excess to reduce supply needs from earth.
Tress, Shrubs, Scrub brush and other such wood fit within the non food plant growth there are the selective types in them to which lead to good building materials for internal use.

Grass of all types can be used for any early animal life brought as feed but there is the oxygen processing that will benefit man as the growth of mans living space does increase. This could also go into the marsh land plants once we have standing water ponds or lagoons. To which if we have ponds then Fish also make sense to introduce.

RobertDyck · 2017-04-23 11:40:18

Basic appliances should be made on Mars. The Mars Homestead Project talked about the first settlers, assuming 12. Start with 3D printers and basic tools, then grow the workshop. As GW Johnson pointed out many times, 3D printers have limits. We need to roll steel to form sheet metal. We need a band saw, punch press, break (metal folding press), etc. I had a tap-and-die set before my garage was broken into and it was stolen. You can drill a hole in a piece of steel with a drill, then cut threads with a tap. Or take a metal rod and cut threads with a die to make a bolt. The tool kit was about the size of a socket set.

I'm thinking something similar to the following. This company made some changes. Last time I visited, they were called "Assent Works", now their website says "North Forge" but has the same physical address and pictures on their website show the same tools. I should go visit. They used to rent use of their facility at a flat rate per month. You can use their entire workshop to make whatever. They intend for start-up entrepreneurs to use their facilities to start a new business. So make a new product with their tools. Their facility is about the size I envision for the first permanent settlement.

North Forge Fabrication Lab
3D Room: 3D Printer (plastics, 3 brands), Vibratory Polisher, 3D Printer (Multi-Material Resin), 3D Object Scanner (2 brands), Smoothing Station, 3D Printer (Production Grade Plastics), 3D Printer (Full Colour Sandstone), Waxing Station, MakerBot Replicator 2X (2 units)
Laser Room: CNC laser cutters - 50w, 120w, 75w (2 different brands)
Electronics Room: PC Board Pick and Place, PC Board Plotter, PC Board Prototyper, SMT Solder Oven, Environmental Shock Testing Chamber
CNC Metal Room: CNC Plasma Cutter, Knee Mill, Horizontal Band Saw, Manual Metal Lathe, Mig Welder, Abrasive Blasting Cabinet, TIG Welder, CNC Mill/Lathe
Metal Area: 12 ton Press, English Wheel, 75 Ton Ironworker, Break, Hydraulic Shear
Textile Room: Wide Format Printer, Sewing Machine, Vinyl Cutter
Paint Area: Paint Chamber
Tool Room: many hand tools, see image

They also have a CNC Wood Room, and well equipped Woodworking Room. However, Mars doesn't have trees so I don't think that will be useful on Mars.

I'm thinking many of these tools will have to be sent from Earth. But I'm hoping the heaviest can be made on Mars. Send key components, but fabricate the heaviest parts on Mars.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-04-23 11:55:31)

SpaceNut · 2017-04-23 11:48:41

not to get this topic to far off track I can see several types of 3D materials printing machines being sent to mars of which the initial feed stocks will be sent but the sooner the better that we can make simular feed stock and or recycle from existing materials we will be better off.

Here is a list of those topics to chose from:

3D rubber, building blocks and ceramics!
3D Printers by Loius
3D printing of solar cells
Self-Replicating Machine: Beginning Design
3D Printers by JoshNH4H

elderflower · 2017-04-23 12:55:22

They might find alternative uses for those tools, Robert, when they get bad cabin fever

RobertDyck · 2017-04-23 13:39:10

elderflower wrote:

They might find alternative uses for those tools, Robert, when they get bad cabin fever

I live in Winnipeg, Canada. In winter it's cold. You have to wear protective clothing to go outside in winter, and commercial buildings have an airlock. Seriously, they have 2 doors with a space called an "airlock" between. The idea is to trap heat in. In the mid and late 1980s in winter I would go to work before the Sun rose in the morning, work in an office where only managers had a window, the lunch room was in the basement, and go home after the Sun set. Can you say "Seasonal Affective Disorder"? One co-worker decided to take me out for a walk at lunch, just so I could see the Sun. It helped. My previous job was for a small computer software company, there were windows and restaurants within walking distance so I could go out for lunch; I didn't get "SAD" there. But my point is being cooped up is something I'm quite familiar with. Cabin fever is every winter. We don't go on a violent rampage. And the reason winter sports are so popular in Canada is an excuse to go outside in winter.

I have argued that a Mars habitat must be designed to allow everyone to go outside in spacesuit with zero prebreathe time. That's imperative. The Shuttle and now ISS use the same pressure as Earth at sea level, so the same as the KSC launch site. Even Boulder Colorado has less. And the EMU spacesuit uses higher pressure than Apollo suits, but still pressure in the Shuttle and now ISS is so high it requires 17 hours of oxygen prebreathe before an astronaut can go outside. That prebreathe time is completely impractical on Mars. You have to be able to put on a suit and go outside when you feel restless. Just to get out, just to do something.

Dook · 2017-04-23 13:50:31

If all of your manufacturing, production, and tools can't make more Moxie units or WAVAR units or RTG's or solar panels on Mars then you can't increase your population. And, sending all of that production equipment means the settlement will take less extra food, less extra Moxie parts, and less extra WAVAR parts. Shipping production equipment increases the risk of mission failure and does nothing to help with growth.

It doesn't matter how much iron or steel or aluminum or how many sulfacrete homes you have, the limit on population growth is oxygen, food, water, THEN shelter but every crew arrives in a perfect shelter so it's the one thing they need the least.

Last edited by Dook (2017-04-23 13:51:31)

elderflower · 2017-04-23 14:01:35

The arriving shelters (Tuna cans?) aren't perfect. They give limited radiation shelter and need to be supplemented by covering with Mars material to improve this. Maybe heat shields could be repurposed as dishes mounted above the shelters to hold a pile of sand, with a tarp or sprayed binder to prevent it blowing away.

Dook · 2017-04-23 14:14:09

The arriving Mars Habs are not perfect? If the tuna can is built with a carbon composite outer shell, an 18" thick hydrogen impregnated fabric layer, then a 6" water sack full of water in flight, then another 6" water sack that will be filled with water on Mars, then regolith on top, would that be enough?

louis · 2017-04-23 14:17:37

This is a great link Robert. This is very much the sort of thing I envisage for Mars as well, although perhaps there will be more automation on Mars. The colonists would I think work to a detailed industrial programme, making essential items that will enable further development of industrial infrastructure.

How practical do you think it would be to make gas cylinders on Mars? This seems to be the basic process on Earth and it looks quite resource intensive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0L9BO02cZs

I'm just wondering whether there is an alternative method we could deploy on Mars in the early colony e.g. drilling out a suitable shaped cylinder of metal?

RobertDyck wrote:

Basic appliances should be made on Mars. The Mars Homestead Project talked about the first settlers, assuming 12. Start with 3D printers and basic tools, then grow the workshop. As GW Johnson pointed out many times, 3D printers have limits. We need to roll steel to form sheet metal. We need a band saw, punch press, break (metal folding press), etc. I had a tap-and-die set before my garage was broken into and it was stolen. You can drill a hole in a piece of steel with a drill, then cut threads with a tap. Or take a metal rod and cut threads with a die to make a bolt. The tool kit was about the size of a socket set.
I'm thinking something similar to the following. This company made some changes. Last time I visited, they were called "Assent Works", now their website says "North Forge" but has the same physical address and pictures on their website show the same tools. I should go visit. They used to rent use of their facility at a flat rate per month. You can use their entire workshop to make whatever. They intend for start-up entrepreneurs to use their facilities to start a new business. So make a new product with their tools. Their facility is about the size I envision for the first permanent settlement.
North Forge Fabrication Lab
3D Room: 3D Printer (plastics, 3 brands), Vibratory Polisher, 3D Printer (Multi-Material Resin), 3D Object Scanner (2 brands), Smoothing Station, 3D Printer (Production Grade Plastics), 3D Printer (Full Colour Sandstone), Waxing Station, MakerBot Replicator 2X (2 units)
Laser Room: CNC laser cutters - 50w, 120w, 75w (2 different brands)
Electronics Room: PC Board Pick and Place, PC Board Plotter, PC Board Prototyper, SMT Solder Oven, Environmental Shock Testing Chamber
CNC Metal Room: CNC Plasma Cutter, Knee Mill, Horizontal Band Saw, Manual Metal Lathe, Mig Welder, Abrasive Blasting Cabinet, TIG Welder, CNC Mill/Lathe
Metal Area: 12 ton Press, English Wheel, 75 Ton Ironworker, Break, Hydraulic Shear
Textile Room: Wide Format Printer, Sewing Machine, Vinyl Cutter
Paint Area: Paint Chamber
Tool Room: many hand tools, see image
http://wiki.assentworks.ca/images/thumb/2/26/ToolRoom.png/500px-ToolRoom.png
They also have a CNC Wood Room, and well equipped Woodworking Room. However, Mars doesn't have trees so I don't think that will be useful on Mars.
I'm thinking many of these tools will have to be sent from Earth. But I'm hoping the heaviest can be made on Mars. Send key components, but fabricate the heaviest parts on Mars.

RobertDyck · 2017-04-23 15:32:29

Dook wrote:

The arriving Mars Habs are not perfect? If the tuna can is built with a carbon composite outer shell, an 18" thick hydrogen impregnated fabric layer, then a 6" water sack full of water in flight, then another 6" water sack that will be filled with water on Mars, then regolith on top, would that be enough?

Effective radiation shielding on Mars requires 2.4 metres thick regolith. Converting to US measure, 2.4m = 7' 10.5" while 2.5m = 8' 2.425", so rounding for significant digits we're talking about 8 feet depth. That's a lot of weight. A tuna can will hold a layer or two of sandbags filled with regolith, but not 8 feet. The surface of Mars has half the radiation of ISS, so it's fine for a science mission. But if you want to permanently live there, you need more. A habitat with 8 feet or more of regolith, and a cantilevered roof with an overhang at windows, with some sort of soffit. The 8 feet of regolith would be piled on the roof, including the overhang. So most of the sky would be shaded from the window. It may seem strange, but you don't want direct sunlight shining in through a window most of the time. That sunshine feels good, but includes solar radiation. I have suggested two pane windows, with the outer pane made of tempered glass and the gap between panes filled with mineral oil. Tempered glass is to prevent scratches during dust storms. Mineral oil is how windows of radiation hot cells are made. None of this is how a tuna can is built. I have also argued for an ambient light greenhouse, with argon gas between panes. Time in the greenhouse has to be counted as time in a spacesuit outside. And to restrict radiation exposure to equal limits for a nuclear reactor worker in the US, time outdoors in a spacesuit (or greenhouse) has to be limited to 40 hours per week, where a "week" is defined as 7 Mars solar days. That's a work week, so shouldn't be a problem.

All this is a lot more than a tuna can. A Mars Direct tuna can hab makes a great exploration vehicle, and a great construction shack. However, permanent settlement will require a lot more. A permanent settlement will require tools.

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