The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

cIclops · 2008-05-18 23:31:04

Obama’s Flag Pin Reappears - 14 May 2008

Gregori · 2008-05-19 05:46:00

What, you're all squabbling because this guy won't wear a stupid little flag?

Honestly, this is just retarded. You don't need to be forced to pretend to worship objects of state to be a good or effective leader. In a democratic state, it should be about the public kicking the government's asses until they fufill the people's wishes. Its the actual policies that count, not personality.

cIclops · 2008-05-19 06:18:29

The flag pin is a national symbol, it is not to be worshiped. It is quite appropriate for a country at war.

So the people should "kick the governments asses" until they do what the people want, and who exactly represents the people and decides which asses to kick? The unelected media?

The government is elected to represent the people on the basis of a party policy, it's not a perfect system, but it works better than any other.

Gregori · 2008-05-19 09:09:35

The flag pin is a national symbol, it is not to be worshiped. It is quite appropriate for a country at war.
So the people should "kick the governments asses" until they do what the people want, and who exactly represents the people and decides which asses to kick? The unelected media?

You're correct, its a national symbol and it should not be worshiped, but thats acutally how its used.

The flag is used as an object of reverence, not much different to how swastikas were used. If you don't like this - you're unpatriotic etc etc
State worship is just dumb. Instead of phoney waiving of a flag and pretending to love the country, I'd prefer if the politicians did their freakin' job right. Its all about the policies and pramatic stuff! Will they do a good job? Do they represent our want and needs? Does our voice count?

There are often polls run on public opinion. They give a really good indication of what the public want (though goverment policy is often contrary to this)

Its rightly up to the public to kick the asses of the goverment if they don't listen and represent them. The media generally doesn't do a very good job (it usually tows the line of goverment and buisness) It is therefore up to the public to kick the goverment's ass through disobediance and resistance.

What's the point of calling something a democracy if the public's opinion barely counts?

bobunf · 2008-05-19 10:44:16

When selecting a President of the United States, I feel the policies advocated by the candidates are significant elements of determining that choice. But there are others: Leadership, character, judgment, vision, political courage for a start.

“There are often polls run on public opinion. They give a really good indication of what the public want...”

What the public wants in a democracy is frequently contradictory, ill-informed, mis-informed and very bad policy. This is not new in democracies. I’ll give three American examples:

In 1898 an overwhelming majority of Americans wanted war with Spain. For no good reason, and the consequences were expensive in blood and treasure and hardly worth the cost to the Americans of the time.

In 1953 an overwhelming majority of Americans felt that Communist influence in the United States was a very significant danger. For no good reason, and the consequences were an erosion in civil liberties and the suppression of a considerable number of important artists. It’s difficult to explain to people 55 years later how it was that most people felt it was a matter of national security to stop Communist sympathizers from making movies.

In 1962 a majority of Americans felt that sending men to the Moon was lunacy.

Reversing these policies took leadership: Nobody in 1898, Eisenhower and many other courageous politicians in 1953 and Kennedy in 1962. The job for which Americans elect their political leaders in not to “fufill the people's wishes,” but to do what’s best. Sometimes, not even what’s best for the people who elected him or her; but for others, for all mankind. A tough, slippery, subjective concept requiring leadership, character, judgment, vision, political courage.

John Kennedy wrote a book about this, "Profiles in Courage."

I imagine that you yourself can think of instances in Irish history in which public opinion was dead wrong.

Besides, public opinion polls suffer from a lot of problems. For one thing they are often inaccurate. For another, the nuances of phrasing the questions are really significant—frequently dictate the answers. For instance, what results would you expect from these two different questions:

“Approximately $200 per year per family is spent on space exploration. Do you feel this is
> Too much?
> About right?
> Too little?”

Or,

“Approximately 96 cents per day per person is spent on space exploration. Do you feel this is
> Too little?
> About right?
> Too much?”

Which question would you want asked?

Bob

Gregori · 2008-05-19 12:49:48

I completely disagree.

All that really highlights is a lack of a functioning democracy. People in 1953 were afraid of communism because of a concerted effort by those in power (buisness interests) to make the public terrified and attack unions.

If all democracy amounts to is a formality were all leaders are the same rich kids picked from the same rich kids universities representing buisness interests, were the public's opinion plays no meaningful role in policy - whats the point? Its not worth its name.

.

bobunf · 2008-05-19 13:26:16

“People in 1953 were afraid of communism because of a concerted effort by those in power (buisness interests) to make the public terrified and attack unions.”

This is a ridiculous mis-statement of the reality.

Just for one example: Walter Reuther, President of the United Auto Workers from 1946, President of the Congress of Industrial Organiazations in 1952. In 1946 he purged the UAW of all Communist elements, in 1947 he helped found the Americans for Democratic Action, and in 1949 he took the lead in expelling eleven Communist-dominated unions from the CIO. As a very powerful union leader, he continued his anti-Communist activities into the 1960s.

Reuther could hardly be described as a tool of business interests. And he was not untypical in American unions of the time.

Bob

Commodore · 2008-05-19 18:47:38

It would be one thing if he was consistent. He's not.

He was the one who made a big stink about how he thought that people used it to compensate for something.

Now that he realizes that the "Fly Over States" actually do get a vote, hes doing a sudden about face.

cIclops · 2008-05-20 01:55:10

Inconsistent and hypocritical indeed. Who trusts that he really has the interests of his country at heart rather than deep rooted hatred? Hatred fostered by his long time racist friend and mentor, Jeremiah Wright, and all his other radical activist anti American friends.

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-05-20 10:03:49

Jeremiah Wright is not going away, we'll see how smart the American people are come this November. Fox certainly is not going to let go of this story, and I hope this helps.

At least the problems with the respective two major Parties are the following: With Republicans its a matter of corruption, and the Economy, with Democrats it a matter of Patriotism.

louis · 2008-05-22 21:16:01

My great great grandfather 1st Sergent Thomas B. Kalbfus mustered under the Pennsylvania Militia under that flag which Obama won't wear to free his ancestor. It was only a 90 day enlistment at the beginning of the War, but he was willing to risk his life to that extend to preserve the Union that flag represents. Other people who wore gray, refused to wear that flag and wanted to keep Obama's ancestors in bondage.
I think Barack Obama really under appreciates his country and craves only the power of the office he seeks rather than to do something positive for his country. Perhaps he ought to move to Africa and run for President of Liberia instead, seeing how he refuses to go so far as to actually give tangible evidence of his patriotism, and pointing this out specifically. My ancestor sacrificed to free his ancestor and to abolish an institution that he abhored, and if that's not good enough for Obama, he's free to go to Africa any time he likes.

I'm sceptical about Obama's politics - how could he sit in that Church for 20 years and not realise there was something dodgy - but from a historical point of view the Civil War was fought to protect the Union, NOT to free slaves. Freeing slaves was an afterthought that came very late in the war.

More importantly perhaps, Obama is NOT the scion of slaves. His father was a Kenyan African, his mother a European American.

Stormrage · 2008-05-23 02:38:18

Jeremiah Wright is not going away, we'll see how smart the American people are come this November. Fox certainly is not going to let go of this story, and I hope this helps.

Just looking at the reaction from America. It appears the people in the South particularly older white people and those in the MidWest aren't that smart. I think it's called Redneckitis. :twisted:

At least the problems with the respective two major Parties are the following: With Republicans its a matter of corruption, and the Economy, with Democrats it a matter of Patriotism.

Patriotism? What would it take for you to think that the Democracts love Ameica? Bombing Iran to death?

By the way. Are you guys going to be voting for the Hitler loving McCain?

Commodore · 2008-05-23 21:08:17

Jeremiah Wright is not going away, we'll see how smart the American people are come this November. Fox certainly is not going to let go of this story, and I hope this helps.
Just looking at the reaction from America. It appears the people in the South particularly older white people and those in the MidWest aren't that smart. I think it's called Redneckitis. :twisted:

No, you see we are just bitter because we believe in the right of self defense and a power greater than ourselves.

At least the problems with the respective two major Parties are the following: With Republicans its a matter of corruption, and the Economy, with Democrats it a matter of Patriotism.
Patriotism? What would it take for you to think that the Democracts love Ameica? Bombing Iran to death?

To stop doing things that weakens the country and the individual and makes it harder to live here would be a nice start.

By the way. Are you guys going to be voting for the Hitler loving McCain?

As opposed to the Marxist loving Barrack Obama, or the Hillary Clinton loving Hillary Clinton?

As for the lefts blatant and failed effort to infect McCain with QPS (Questionable Pastor Syndrome) that your referencing, it's just furthur proof that McCain is hands down more qualified than Obama, because McCain has the stones rid himself of people who spend all their time swallowing their own feet.

Stormrage · 2008-05-24 03:34:05

No, you see we are just bitter because we believe in the right of self defense and a power greater than ourselves.

Don't forget the economic down turn.

To stop doing things that weakens the country and the individual and makes it harder to live here would be a nice start.

Thats funny. Because it seems to me your idea of patriotism is to be an asshole in the world. Bush has made more enemies and lost more friends then Clinton. If thats patriotism I really hate to seem what John McCains idea will be.

As opposed to the Marxist loving Barrack Obama, or the Hillary Clinton loving Hillary Clinton?
As for the lefts blatant and failed effort to infect McCain with QPS (Questionable Pastor Syndrome) that your referencing, it's just furthur proof that McCain is hands down more qualified than Obama, because McCain has the stones rid himself of people who spend all their time swallowing their own feet.

Actually what the left are trying to do is to show how stupid the Right are being with Wright by showing that McCain has a bad pastor. McCain didn't have the guts to to distance him self from him. When He was raving against Catholics and others all McCain said was I'm glad for your support. He only backed away from him when he mentioned Hitler.

p.s. People tend to look on at Hitler has worse then Marx and Hillary Clinton.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#101 2008-05-18 23:31:04

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#102 2008-05-19 05:46:00

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#103 2008-05-19 06:18:29

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#104 2008-05-19 09:09:35

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#105 2008-05-19 10:44:16

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#106 2008-05-19 12:49:48

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#107 2008-05-19 13:26:16

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#108 2008-05-19 18:47:38

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#109 2008-05-20 01:55:10

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#110 2008-05-20 10:03:49

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#111 2008-05-22 21:16:01

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#112 2008-05-23 02:38:18

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#113 2008-05-23 21:08:17

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

#114 2008-05-24 03:34:05

Re: The Flag that Barack Obama won't wear

Board footer