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My great great grandfather 1st Sergent Thomas B. Kalbfus mustered under the Pennsylvania Militia under that flag which Obama won't wear to free his ancestor. It was only a 90 day enlistment at the beginning of the War, but he was willing to risk his life to that extend to preserve the Union that flag represents. Other people who wore gray, refused to wear that flag and wanted to keep Obama's ancestors in bondage.
I think Barack Obama really under appreciates his country and craves only the power of the office he seeks rather than to do something positive for his country. Perhaps he ought to move to Africa and run for President of Liberia instead, seeing how he refuses to go so far as to actually give tangible evidence of his patriotism, and pointing this out specifically. My ancestor sacrificed to free his ancestor and to abolish an institution that he abhored, and if that's not good enough for Obama, he's free to go to Africa any time he likes.
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These people really have have no concept of the sacrifice required to create the power they covet.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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They gather like pidgeons that poop on your lawn. You throw them bread crumbs and they are awfully hard to get rid of. What we really need are politicians who believe in something rather than just say something to get elected.
Obama's behavior, for instance tells be that he doesn't care about this country, he just wants us to give him power for his own selfish purpose, and will say or do anything to get someone's vote. Unfortunately the Democratic Party has a large number of people who don't care about their country either, they want what government can do for them, and don't care to do anything for their country. Having too many unpatriotic citizens is dangerous, all they want is as much of your taxpayer's dollars as they can get, they cheer whenever something bad happens to our soldiers, hence Obama's refusal to wear his country's flag pin.
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America is an idea, not a symbol.
It seems that far too many people have forgotten this. How anyone who claims to dream of Mars can fail to understand this is beyond me.
Waving a flag does not demonstrate that you understand what the thing you are waving means. What it does demonstrate is that you understand what the flag means to other people, and are willing to exploit that feeling for your own personal gain.
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America is an idea, not a symbol.
It seems that far too many people have forgotten this. How anyone who claims to dream of Mars can fail to understand this is beyond me.
Waving a flag does not demonstrate that you understand what the thing you are waving means. What it does demonstrate is that you understand what the flag means to other people, and are willing to exploit that feeling for your own personal gain.
That's so negative! Waving a flag costs so little. If Obama is willing so sacrifice his life for his country, then his refusal to show the flag displays very little evidence for it. It costs him very little, this modest display of patriotism, whether genuine or not. Yes some people exploit the American flag to get elected, but people who are also very patriotic and many who have sacrificed for their country have also shown the flag. Now if Obama won't even go as far as display the flag like patriots and crass politicians alike, what does that suggest about his feeling for this country. In the past Democratic politicians have shown the stars and strips in their election campaigns, if Obama won't even do that, there are other politicians I'd want to consider first over an honest politician who shows his frank disgust for his country, and that the only reason he's running for the office is that he wants the power that comes with it, not for the American people, which that flag represents, but for himself.
That is how I look at his refusal and the fact that he's so willing to point this out. Yeah, he may have other ways to show his patrotism, we just have to elect him so that he can show us, wearing the American flag on his lapel, well that's just too difficult for him, I don't think I want to risk giving him the power to start with if he shows outward signs of disdain for his country that he would be supposed to serve.
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America is an idea, not a symbol.
It seems that far too many people have forgotten this. How anyone who claims to dream of Mars can fail to understand this is beyond me.
The thing about those ideas is that those who sacrifice to preserve them generally don't get to enjoy them. All they have is a flag to plant on the Mt Suribachi's of the world. The more people took time to think about that the better we'd be.
What it does demonstrate is that you understand what the flag means to other people, and are willing to exploit that feeling for your own personal gain.
Yeah, that should tell you exactly who he is pandering to.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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America is an idea, but the only way to express an idea is with a symbol. Symbols are the basis of all language, that is symbols are representatives of ideas. The Stars and Strips represents the United States of America. If Obama refuses to wear the Stars and Stripes on his lapel pin, he may think he is showing his opposition to the War in Iraq, but most people understand the American flag to represent America, and interpret his vocal refusal to mean he is opposed to America, yet this guy wants to become President of the country that he's opposed to? Obama apparently thinks their are enough Americans who hate their own country to elect him President of that country they hate? Obama surely makes it very hard for any Liberal to vote for him unless they truly detest their own country. Once, a long time ago, there used to be a tradition of the patriotic liberal, who would fight and die for his country, as he help that America was the best expression of the Liberal Idea, once a long time ago, these Liberals were called Abolitionists.
Now the question is, if any of these Abolitionists were alive today, would their recognize what their Liberal cause has become? Abe Lincoln was not afraid to show the American Flag, he did not refuse to wear an American Flag Lapel to show his opposition to slavery, the people back then who burnt American flags were the ones that were for slavery.
So what country do modern Liberals look to to champion their Liberal causes? Iran? Saddam Husseins Iraq? Venuzuelia? Cuba? Russia? Not America, oh certianly, because in the Liberal's mind, America is always wrong! That's what I get from most Left Wingers anyway.
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Brilliant.
Let's all make choices based on what lapel pin a person chooses to wear. Let's all stop listening to the words they speak, or the results of their actions, and simply focus on the color of their suit. What is their stance? Who cares! Tell me what color ribbon they wear, and what their favorite TV personality is. That's what matters.
I don't know what is more preposterous- that you are arguing from the strength of conviction, or that you could even entertain this point of view as somehow sensible.
Are there any sane people left?
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Brilliant.
Let's all make choices based on what lapel pin a person chooses to wear. Let's all stop listening to the words they speak....
ummm... aren't words a construction of noises or letters used to symbolize ideas?
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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Brilliant.
Let's all make choices based on what lapel pin a person chooses to wear. Let's all stop listening to the words they speak, or the results of their actions, and simply focus on the color of their suit. What is their stance? Who cares! Tell me what color ribbon they wear, and what their favorite TV personality is. That's what matters.
I don't know what is more preposterous- that you are arguing from the strength of conviction, or that you could even entertain this point of view as somehow sensible.
Are there any sane people left?
The wearing of a pin, is not by itself enough to validate one's patriotism, but the outright refusal to wear such a device and calling attention to the fact that one refuses to wear an American flag pin, surely indicates something, much like I wouldn't vote for someone who was wearing a swastika armband. A swastika is a symbol too you know. Now If I were a member of Hitlers inner circle, I wouldn't judge someone to be a loyal NAZI party member just because he was wearing a swastika, but as an American patriot, a swastika is enough to disuade me from voting for that person for President. Sure the person wearing the swastika might be a crass politician who's faking it, but I would take that swastika at face value for the purposes of evaluating him as a future US President, I'll assume that he means it when he wears that swastika and not vote for him just to be safe, don't you think that would be a prudent thing to do?
In the same sense, someone who makes a point of not showing his patriotism in this small way is demonstrating that he is not to be trusted. I would not want a president who refuses to fly the American flag over the White House, and if he thinks the American flag is a symbol of war, then he has no business running for a political office in this country!
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But then again...my family lived in America before Washington's family moved there. They fought the french in Quebec, they fought Washington in the Revolution. They moved to Canada because The USA was not what they wanted for their children. They moved to Canada because Washington and his ilk believed in a Democracy where people were not all equal, where a few made decisions for the many.
They moved to Canada because they were not prepared to shoot Washington for Treason even though that was what he was guilty of. Then they fought the USA when it attacked Canada.
My family contributed a lot for a Commonwealth that the USA should have been a part of.
Any act of Government, Law, Constitution, Sovereign causing Government, Law, Constitution, Sovereign to be held in hatred and contempt is a Seditious act. This means that every act of Government, Law, Constitution, and Sovereign must have the regular approval of every citizen to ensure the preservation of human rights.
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Just a quick note. Here are Obama's feelings on the subject. I agree with him that for many wearing a silly lapel pin has become a subsitute for real patritotisim. Which isn't necessarly blind devotion to which ever way the country is heading. But speaking up and taking actions to ensure that country is headed in the direction you belive it should be going in.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
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So is he saying the American Flag is a Symbol of the Iraq War or is it a symbol of his patriotism?
"You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest.
"Instead," he said, "I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."
In Iowa, some Obama supporters applauded the candidate's fashion statement. Said Carrie Haurum of Waterloo: "He doesn't need to wear that flag on his lapel. He wears it in his heart."
Somehow, this sounds like the Music Man's that giving musical instruments for the children to practice on would only get in the way of them learning how to play them. "76 trombones in the big parade..."
It doesn't hurt to wear an American flag lapel pin, it shows you to be no less of a patriot for wearing it than for not, but given that plus the sermons of his favorite preacher Reverend Jeromiah Wright, and the statement of his wife about only now being proud of her country, as if she wasn't before, this sets up a disturbing pattern.
It seems that the extreme left have historically been the first to doubt their own country on many occassions. I listen to what Rev. Wright had to say, it seems to me that if he thinks this country is such a terrible place and that racism is so terribly endemic, and after 150 years after the abolition of slavery, not going away, why does he waste his time hanging around a country that is so terrible unfair to his kind and hopeless? There has been a country that has been established for American blacks that want to return to Africa, and its name is Liberia. If we all are so terribly racist, why don't he go to Africa and live among his own kind? It would solve his problem of being a minority wouldn't it. Yet instead of taking action on this subject all he does is "bitch and moan" and stir up hatred among his congregation.
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A reverend stirring up hatred? Never! I thought only Imans did that!
"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony
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If we all are so terribly racist, why don't he go to Africa and live among his own kind?
So... the way to show black people that America is no longer racist is to tell them to go back to Africa? Yeah. That makes sense.
Honestly, a lapel pin isn't worth this kind of attention. Regardless of who's ancestor fought to free who's ancestor, the American flag has been cliché ever since it became an accessory. Look at Teddy Roosevelt... How many times did HE wear a lapel flag?
The American flag is something to be waved and saluted, not slapped on like a fraternity pin.
Artist for [url=www.red-oasis.com]Red Oasis[/url]
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Why not wear the flag on one's clothes? Its one thing not to wear it, its quite another to say, "Hey I'm not wearing an American Flag Lapel pin because I'm against the war!" Which is about what Obama said. I disagree with Obama that the American Flag is a "Symbol of War" or that not wearing it signifies that one is against that war. The Stars and Stripes is a symbol of the United States of America, nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps Obama should remember that he is running for the office of President of the United States of America, in fact the acronym POTUS, used by the Secret Service stands for President Of The United States. The flag he refuses to wear symbolizes the United States whose office of President he wishes to run for. If he doesn't respect the United States then what other motivation could he possibly have to run for this high office? Gee that's hard, could it be for power?
One might overlook this, then there is his wife's statement that she at last has some reason to be proud of her country. Oh and there is the sermons of the Reverent Jerimiah Wright, who curses his county and swears and cusses "God D*mn America!" Now Barack attended this church for 20 years and was apparenly asleep or did not attend the services where the Reverend swore and cussed at his country and made racist statements about white people and none of the fellow parishioners thought this diatribe was disturbing or remarkable enough to inform Barack about. I guess swearing, cussing, and sexual inuendo about Bill Clintons trists is something we can expect to hear from most preachers in most black churches. Not!
It does not escape me that Barack is only half-black, perhaps he felt the need to demonstrate his "blackness" to his constituents in his district when he ran for the statehouse? Was it black activism that motivated him to attend this particular church? That would be more charitable than to assume that he was a racist and actually aggreed with Rev. Wright, in otherwords it was just for show so that the black voters would aggree that he was one of them.
A less charitable assumption is that he just attended these services to take a nap and didn't particularly listen to the sermons and was completely oblivious to what went on there, what by the way does this suggest about the vetting process he would use to select the cabinet positions of his future administration? If he missed out on the fact that his preacher was a racist, might not some other administration offical be a Hezbollah or Iranian Spy, might not such an official purloin some state secrets, or delivers certain weapons of a mass destructive potential to some hostile foreign power. If Obama can't pay attention to the sermons he attends, can he focus on other things such as national security for instance?
To answer whether Wright should go to Africa, its rather a simple matter, if he is so paranoid to think that white people are always out to get the black man and that we're so hopelessly and irredeemable racism, why does he hang around a country where the majority of people are white?
We aren't about to go anywhere and black people aren't about to become the majority, but there is a place where black people are the majority, and if multiculturalism and racial diversity doesn't seem to work in his own mind, why after 150 years of trying and failing to see progress in Civil Rights in his own eyes does he hang around the United States of America and criticise it as evil? If white people are holding him back in this country, why doesn't he go to another country where there are few white people to hold him back? There are no "Jim Crow" laws in Liberia, of that I am certain.
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I've run into this type of argument before. "If you don't like the way things are, then leave." But wouldn't staying and trying to fix the problem you see in the government be more patriotic than just leaving? You seem to be misunderstanding a fundamental point here. Obama (or Rev. White for that matter) saw a problem with America and tried to fix it. You may disagree, and say "there is no problem" and that's fine, everyone is subject to his/her bias. But you called into question his patriotism. And I'm telling you that an un-patriotic person would have left the country long ago for one that agreed with his philosophy. The fact that they stay and try to change things only proves their devotion to this country.
To be technical, the purpose of any flag has always been rooted in war. Colors were originally rally points for ground troops, waved high in the air so everyone could see and stay near them. Ships would display colors so that friendly ships would not fire on them. Over time, we've installed a more symbolic meaning behind the flag, but it still has an "Us and them" mentality to it. When is it that you see the colors displayed everywhere? During a war. Who is it that is required to salute the flag every day? Armed forces (though, we started requiring children to do the same thing because of cold war politics.) And again, hyper-active nationalism has further pushed the flag into civilian life. So much so that wearing (or not wearing) a tiny pin can cause someone to make all kinds of rash assumptions about your character.
I stand by my initial point that a tiny pin doesn't matter. It seems apparent to me that you've already made up your mind about Obama and this pin incident was just an excuse for you to rant about him (and Reverand White.. And democrats in general.)
Now, if Obama burned a flag at one of his campaign rallies, then that would be something noteworthy.
Artist for [url=www.red-oasis.com]Red Oasis[/url]
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I've run into this type of argument before. "If you don't like the way things are, then leave." But wouldn't staying and trying to fix the problem you see in the government be more patriotic than just leaving? You seem to be misunderstanding a fundamental point here. Obama (or Rev. White for that matter) saw a problem with America and tried to fix it. You may disagree, and say "there is no problem" and that's fine, everyone is subject to his/her bias. But you called into question his patriotism. And I'm telling you that an un-patriotic person would have left the country long ago for one that agreed with his philosophy. The fact that they stay and try to change things only proves their devotion to this country.
Someone saying, "God D*mn America!" is basically telling America to "go to Hell" to paraphrase it. That is very irreverent as well as unpatriotic, one does not, even a man of the cloth, tell God what to do or how he should judge people! It doesn't seem to me he is fixing "the problem" by being racist himself. People like him make me wish his ancestors were returned to Africa when the US Army under the Stars and Stripes freed them from slavery. People like him seem unappreciative of the sacrifices White Americans and Blacks in US uniforms made to free his ancestors from slavery. All he does is list the supposed crimes of the US Army, Bombing Hiroshima, and Nagasaki for instance, never mind that Japan was allied at the time with white supreamacists called NAZIs at the time. You should see the documentery by Kevin Burns called "The War" sometime, in if we find out exactly how the Japanese treated their enemy civilians and soldiers alike, you hear how they starved children and decapitated people they did not like. The Japanese did much to stir up ill feelings and make it easy for us to nuke their cities. The Rev Wright failed to mention the Japanese part in setting in motion the series of events that led to the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese could have been more humane in their treatment of prisoners, it did not help their prosecution of the war to torture people, to starve them or to murder them, but since they acted like monsters, they were slain like monsters by us. I wish it wasn't necessary, but they made it necessary. The Reverend Wright made it seem like we just went out to kill and bunch of innocent people for no reason, and that's misrepresenting the facts. Besides I don't think the Japanese treated black people any better than they treated white ones.
To be technical, the purpose of any flag has always been rooted in war. Colors were originally rally points for ground troops, waved high in the air so everyone could see and stay near them. Ships would display colors so that friendly ships would not fire on them. Over time, we've installed a more symbolic meaning behind the flag, but it still has an "Us and them" mentality to it. When is it that you see the colors displayed everywhere? During a war. Who is it that is required to salute the flag every day? Armed forces (though, we started requiring children to do the same thing because of cold war politics.) And again, hyper-active nationalism has further pushed the flag into civilian life. So much so that wearing (or not wearing) a tiny pin can cause someone to make all kinds of rash assumptions about your character.
The US was born of war and Jerimiah Wright's ancestors were freed during a war by the US Army no less. The US Army began freeing slaves the moment it entered Southern territory, even before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclaimation.
I stand by my initial point that a tiny pin doesn't matter. It seems apparent to me that you've already made up your mind about Obama and this pin incident was just an excuse for you to rant about him (and Reverand White.. And democrats in general.)
Obama could have done more to demonstrate his patriotism, he has shown very little evidence of it, other than he wants the power of the Presidency. He has advocating surrundering our positions in Iraq despite the heroic sacrifices of US soldiers, he has shown little evidence that he was on their side. You can pardon me for being suspicious of his patriotism given all the little bits of circumstantial evidence. I'm not trying to convict him in a court of law, suspicion is enough not to entrust him to the highest office in the land, and Obama has done little to allay that suspicion.
Now, if Obama burned a flag at one of his campaign rallies, then that would be something noteworthy.
Obama is not completely stupid.
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We could try to pick apart Mr. Wrights statements with logic, facts, and common sense. But he's only interested in preying upon the hopes and fears of parishioners to fill the collection plate.
Obama is not stupid, he knows this. The only reason to go along with Mr. Wright is because Obama either believes him, or wants to tap the kind of fanaticism Mr. Wright is able get, or both.
Such men should not be allowed anywhere near the White House, the US Senate, or even the Chicago pound.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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Well Obama listened to a preacher guy who has been slagging off America for 20 years. That along with his wife saying that she is proud of America for the first time in her life, brings me to only one conclusion this guy is out to create change in America in a big way. This guy doesnt like America much and i bet that he will be the worst president in American history. Evan worse that G W Bush.
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The must be a nice African country he could run for President of. I think its foolish for him to expect white Americans to understand Obama's prejudice against their country and race and expect them to vote for him for President just the same. Being a racist may fly in some countries when the racist is a member of the majority race or ethnic group, but not when the racist is a minority member disliking the majority.
I realize blacks have had it hard in the past in the USA and they were discriminated against, but that doesn't make it more likely that I would vote for someone who isn't patriotic, hates this country and my race.
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Being a racist may fly in some countries when the racist is a member of the majority race or ethnic group, but not when the racist is a minority member disliking the majority.
I agree that racism is racism whether its a minority or a majority. But don't you see how telling people to "go be with your own kind" might not be the best solution to racial tension?
I realize blacks have had it hard in the past in the USA and they were discriminated against, but that doesn't make it more likely that I would vote for someone who isn't patriotic, hates this country and my race.
What you've done here is called "guilty by association." You've assumed several things about Obama based on the views of a long-time friend of his. He actually addressed this yesterday in a very good speech about race relations, but I'm sure you'll dismiss it as "pandering." If you're going to have that kind of extremely cynical mind-set in regards to Obama, claiming that you can't believe anything he says because he's "power-hungry," then the only fair thing to do would be to apply that same cynicism to every candidate. And if you do that, then there's really no point in participating in the Democratic process because then there’s no reason for you to believe anything any politician says ever. So why even bother voting?
"The fact is that the comments that have been made on the issues that have surfaced over the past few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country we've never really worked through... And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together to solve challenges like helth-care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American."
-Barack Obama, 3/18/08
[sarcasm]Yeah, what an unpatriotic racist. He should go back to Africa.[/sarcasm]
Artist for [url=www.red-oasis.com]Red Oasis[/url]
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Yeah, what an unpatriotic racist. He should go back to Africa.
Dosent that contradict your argument, or may other arguments here, after all its not fight fire with fire situation, you cant fight prejudice with some.
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im sorry, some times i can be quite thick.
(by the way, nice stuff you got there (red oasis))
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