Communication on Mars

alien_baby_in_goo · 2007-07-04 10:00:31

hi, i'm a noob.
how would a colony be able to communicate with one another on Mars?
is wi-fi possible?
are satellites the only way?

alien_baby_in_goo · 2007-07-04 10:14:40

http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/columns/article.php/3299841

noosfractal · 2007-07-04 17:29:00

Hi Alien baby, welcome to New Mars.

I vote for the WiFi idea - or whatever packet-switched high-bandwidth self-organizing wireless data network is in vogue at the time.

Communication towers will be easier to build on Mars because of the lower gravity. You can also use tethered balloons as ad hoc communication towers (during exploration).

Number04 · 2007-07-05 12:42:49

The best scenario would be to have fiber between bases. But, especially in the beginning this will not be possible.

Now, depending on WHAT you want to communicate there are a few different options. Wi-Fi will work if you are looking for computer communications. The more bandwidth you need the more towers you will need. (Higher frequency has an increasingly narrow transmission cone)

If you just want voice, you could most likely use UHF and bounce the signal off the atmosphere. Of course, I haven’t done the calculations for different atmospheres, but the use should dictate the system.

alien_baby_in_goo · 2007-07-06 10:37:41

What's the best way to communicate from Mars to Earth and vice versa?
Communication amongst people on Mars?

m1omg · 2007-07-06 11:13:11

What's the best way to communicate from Mars to Earth and vice versa?
Communication amongst people on Mars?

Radio waves.
For people on Mars in one colony, of course, speech .

Grypd · 2007-07-10 07:17:24

We will likely have placed into Orbit around Mars a series of satelits to allow over the horizon communication as well as to provide a Mars Net. This will probabily also have any bases that we have on the Martian Moons as well linked in.

Another option is the development of balloons where we can bounce signals off and to provide a "cheap" alternative to a permanent satelite system.

Any long distance missions will also use the repeater station system of allowing communication between it and the home base to happen.

Ancalagon · 2007-08-06 13:18:16

This may be an unpopular idea because it's not shiny and high-tech. But what about a radio? It's cheap, simple, and easy to fix. I'm thinking that early research missions would be more concerned with just talking to eachother than they would be with texting their friends and updating their blogs.

Redboy56: dude! this rok looks like a turd.
Wangle2: LoLz!!1!

noosfractal · 2007-08-06 18:14:46

Well, WiFi is radio - it's digital, not analog, but then most comms is nowadays. The nice thing about digital is that you can use it for video & data as well as voice. Your cell phone will soon have WiFi built in so that you can make free calls through the internet. You can also use it to control your bots.

The nice thing about packet switching (as opposed to point to point) is that you can quickly set up redundant routing to anywhere on the planet. If one node goes down, the system can automatically route around.

In military scenarios, digital is a must for encryption and authentication (friend or foe ID).

Mark Friedenbach · 2007-08-06 22:17:57

hi, i'm a noob.
how would a colony be able to communicate with one another on Mars?
is wi-fi possible?
are satellites the only way?

As you can imagine, there has been a lot of work on this subject. The two methods you mention are possible, but some further research may be necessary before they can be implemented. The most promising technology being looked at right now makes use of mechanical vibrations transmitted through an extended, single dimensional solid media. The way it works is that the analog waveform is captured at one end using pressure waves against the surface of the habitation module, then transmitted across the wire medium, and recreated on the other end through the reverse process.

I was able to find this diagram which may help you visualize the technology:

Now obviously this requires point-to-point and direct line-of-sight communications mechanism. But at first there will not be many stations to talk to, and great distances may be overcome by reusing metal food packaging as repeaters at regular intervals (as long as they are resealed and pressurized).

Austin Stanley · 2007-09-04 19:52:11

hi, i'm a noob.
how would a colony be able to communicate with one another on Mars?
is wi-fi possible?
are satellites the only way?
As you can imagine, there has been a lot of work on this subject. The two methods you mention are possible, but some further research may be necessary before they can be implemented. The most promising technology being looked at right now makes use of mechanical vibrations transmitted through an extended, single dimensional solid media. The way it works is that the analog waveform is captured at one end using pressure waves against the surface of the habitation module, then transmitted across the wire medium, and recreated on the other end through the reverse process.
I was able to find this diagram which may help you visualize the technology:
Now obviously this requires point-to-point and direct line-of-sight communications mechanism. But at first there will not be many stations to talk to, and great distances may be overcome by reusing metal food packaging as repeaters at regular intervals (as long as they are resealed and pressurized).

LMAO!!

---

But in seriousness wi-fi or any other high frequency form of radio communication will be fine for short distances on mars (in fact will work very well in the noise free enviroment) it is not well suited for communication over the horizon, such as from the rover to the base or bettwen bases. In these cases you need to use radio technologies with shortwaves (like shortwave radio!) which can bounce of the ionosphere to communicate over the horizon. However, shortwave radio transmits much less information per unit of time, and so is not ideal for any high bandwidth communication you might want to carry out. Mars week ionosphere does not help the situation either. Ultimately for high-bandwidth data transfer satellites are the best short term solution, with copper and fiber optics taking over as infrastructure improves.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-25 09:17:21

Japan moving beyond 5G to take 6G lead

https://asiatimes.com/2022/03/japan-mov … e-6g-lead/

Starlink - Space X's space internet project
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8504

Old discussion 'Wi-Fi on Mars - Lots of great possibilities'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1745

Mars Telecommunications Orbiter (MTO) - laser communication
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1436

Calliban · 2022-03-25 19:11:35

Mars has an ionosphere, so we should be able to communicate using radio waves in the 100KHz frequency range. Rovers equipped with a transceiver should be able to stay in touch with the base anywhere on the planet. Low frequency radio has limited data transmission rates, but it is more than adequate for voice and morse code. You could send images this way if you were patient or made use of broad frequency bands.

tahanson43206 · 2022-03-25 19:43:52

For Calliban re #13

Your mention of an ionosphere on Mars inspired me to (try to) learn more... Google found this detailed report;

https://sci.esa.int/web/mars-express/-/ … tic-fields

The ionosphere appears to be quite different from that of Earth, so I expect that ham radio operators (and commercial and military ones) will find the operating conditions quite "interesting".

If anyone runs across any experiments with low frequency RF transmissions, I'd be interested.

The reports in the article above appear to be about experiments done with higher frequency transmissions (eg, radar).

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-10 03:53:36

Japanese satellite laser-comm startup Warpspace draws bead on U.S. market
https://spacenews.com/japanese-satellit … -s-market/

Warpspace, a Japanese space startup developing an inter-satellite laser communications system, is establishing a U.S. presence to partner with American companies and compete for government and military contracts.

“Warpspace USA Inc. was recently incorporated in Delaware,” chief strategy officer Hirokazu Mori told SpaceNews.

The company is developing an optical inter-satellite data relay service in medium Earth orbit called WarpHub InterSat. The target customers are Earth observation satellite operators that need to quickly move large volumes of data from space to the ground.

Distances for Natural Lasers made in space?
MeerKAT Discovers Farthest Hydroxyl Megamaser to Date
http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/hydro … 10694.html

LADUMA J033046.20-275518.1 lies at a distance of about 5 billion light-years from Earth.

From the MTO thread

Mars Telecommunications Orbiter (MTO) - laser communication

SpaceNut wrote:

Article not about MTO but is about laser communications.Two satellites have become the first to exchange information from different orbits using a laser . The feat may lead to super-fast data-relay systems between spacecraft.
One, a Japanese mission called Kirari (Optical Inter-orbit Communications Engineering Test Satellite), flies at an altitude of 610 kilometres, in low-Earth orbit. The other, a European satellite called ARTEMIS (Advanced Relay and Technology Mission), soars 36,000 kilometres above Earth in geostationary orbit.

Not quite the same as would be used for a mars to Earth repeater but without more testing of design we will never know if could make the distance and aiming acuracy that will be needed.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1436

tahanson43206 wrote:

If anyone runs across any experiments with low frequency RF transmissions, I'd be interested.

Germany and the USA have many amateur groups doing experiments, we had discussion in another thread where one guy was even able to listen into the Chinese Rover landing. NASA has started to map out the layers and there have also been experimenst with ESA's Mars Express.

There is a Maven NASA spacecraft in orbit "Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution"
https://www.space.com/mars-probe-discov … earth.html
'rifts, happen in zones where plasma is less abundant than in the surrounding atmosphere on Mars. MAVEN is the first to find such rifts at Mars'

At Mars, spacecraft such as MAVEN can orbit at lower altitudes and can sample these features directly. MAVEN carries several scientific instruments that measure plasmas in the atmosphere and space around Mars. Recent measurements from one of these instruments detected unexpected sudden spikes in the abundance of plasma as it flew through the Martian ionosphere. Joe Grebowsky, former MAVEN project scientist at NASA Goddard, immediately recognized the spike from his previous experience with rocket flights through the layers at Earth. Not only had MAVEN discovered that such layers can occur at other planets than Earth, but the new results reveal that Mars offers what Earth cannot, a place where we can reliably explore these layers with satellites.
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8596/nasas-m … -at-earth/

Ham Radio Signals from Mars
Around the world, ham radio operators are doing something once reserved for national Deep Space Networks. “We’re monitoring spacecraft around Mars,” says Scott Tilley, of Roberts Creek, British Columbia, who listened to China’s Tianwen-1 probe go into orbit on Feb. 10th. The signal, which Tilley picked up in his own back yard, was “loud and audible.”
https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2021/02 … from-mars/
As China Spacecraft Lands on Mars, Ham Notes Lander and Rover Separation
http://itdevel.arrl.org/news/as-china-s … separation

PDF here from ESA
https://sci.esa.int/c/portal/doc.cfm?fobjectid=50643

QUOTE

• The ionosphere is the upper atmosphere region containing large
concentrations of electrons & ions due to ionisation of the atmosphere by
solar UV & X-rays
• Such a plasma has a characteristic (i.e. resonant) frequency of oscillation
– Ions are much more massive than electrons, so we can neglect ion motion
– If the electrons in the plasma are moved from their equilibrium locations, an
oscillation occurs at the plasma frequency ω p , given by
where N e = the undisturbed electron density
Qe = the charge on an electron
m e = the mass of an electron
ε0 = the vacuum permittivity
• Electromagnetic waves are reflected if their frequency is ≤ ω p
• Thus the ionosphere was discovered when radio waves were transmitted
and received over much larger distances

Mars has some remanent crustal magnetism, concentrated in the Southern hemisphere -- Mars Global Surveyor magnetometer data.

• While the region around the main peak (135 km height) is relatively well studied, many unknown remain concerning: the upper part (= the ionopause) and the lower part (below 100 km).
• Extreme variability at all altitudes.
• The knowledge of the ionosphere is important for
telecommunication and radio-link (surface-surface,
surface-orbiter).

Mars ionosphere: effect of dust storms
Topic for YingHuo-1?

'A totally unknown region of the ionosphere'

The MARSIS team has demonstrated a simple and accurate technique for measuring the magnetic field around
Mars using the ionospheric sounder onboard Mars Express,
which has no onboard magnetometer. Knowledge of the magnetic field is a crucial element in the understanding of the space
environment near Mars.

On Earth Several layers have been identified and called D, E, Fl and F2, these Layered structures change between Day and Night, your D Radio layer and F1 layer disappear at night. Neutral Atmosphere of Mars
• Neutral Composition of the Thermosphere:
CO2 , CO, O, N 2 , O2 , NO, He, H 2 , H

Absorption and reflection of radio waves in the Martian ionosphere

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3306002984

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-04-10 04:15:15)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-05-23 06:07:45

Military experiment demonstrates intersatellite laser communications in low Earth orbit

https://spacenews.com/military-experime … rth-orbit/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-04 12:31:24

Researchers in Japan Just Set a Staggering New Speed Record for Data Transfers
https://gizmodo.com/researchers-set-new … 1849007382
Japan just set a new fiber optic data transmission record

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-07 05:17:41

Sony launches space laser communications business

https://spacenews.com/sony-launches-spa … llychillly

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-29 10:44:22

Laser Communications in Space
https://www.azooptics.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=2273

Psyche Asteroid MissionDesigned to study a metal-rich asteroid, and send its data back via the very first deep space laser communication
launch delay for Psyche asteroid mission
https://optics.org/news/13/6/47

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-06 09:33:07

NASA's CAPSTONE satellite has gone dark
https://www.engadget.com/nasa-moon-prob … 56053.html

from the L2 thread

L points could become a valuable place to set an array of observation satellites but also communication networks, lack of radio communications can also be caused by ionospheric anomalies, solar activity or during re-entry of a spacecraft, we also see with the War in Ukraine civilian communication networks may be subject to radio jamming from an aggressive imperialist state, even if its slower by snail mail each planet or Asteroid of the Solar system could have a satellite that replays information meaning there would be almost no blackouts.
James Webb Space Telescope, designed to operate near the Earth–Sun L2. Due to the natural stability of L4 and L5, it is common for natural objects to be found orbiting in those Lagrange points of planetary systems. Objects that inhabit those points are generically referred to as 'trojans' there are also the ' Jupiter trojan asteroids'. The Sun–Earth L4 and L5 points contain interplanetary dust and at least two asteroids, Earth–Moon L4 and L5 points contain concentrations of interplanetary dust, known as Kordylewski clouds. The Sun–Neptune L4 and L5 points contain several dozen known objects, the Neptune trojans, there is speculation that China may send a Nuclear Orbiter to Neptune, the planet Mars has four trojans. Chang'e 2 was placed onto a heliocentric orbit that took the Chinese spacecraft past the near-Earth asteroid 4179 Toutatis. There are quasi-stable periodic orbits called halo orbits around these points in a three-body system. The L3 point lies on the line defined by the two large masses, beyond the larger of the two. Within the Sun–Earth system, the L3 point exists on the opposite side of the Sun, a little outside Earth's orbit and slightly closer to the center of the Sun than Earth is. Soho is at L1 since the 90s and WIND at L1 since 2004.
Optimal Location of Relay Satellites for Continuous Communication with Mars
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … _with_Mars
A two-satellite Gangale orbit relay system provides optimum performance. We then investigate the propellant requirements for a Gangale orbit insertion and station-keeping in light of non-gravitational forces. We conclude that the Gangale orbit configuration is practical from these points of view.
NASA’s CAPSTONE Probe Is Officially en Route to the Moon
https://gizmodo.com/nasas-capstone-head … 1849140591
Chang'e 5 orbiter enters 1st Lagrange Point of Sun-Earth system
www.china.org.cn/china/2021-03/20/content_77330591.htm
Japanese venture Company in Tsukuba First to Commercialize Lasers Connecting Space and Earth: The laser communication network could revolutionize disaster response, along with private telecommunications, space exploration.
https://japan-forward.com/venture-compa … and-earth/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-27 06:20:46

Researchers 3D print sensors for satellites

https://techxplore.com/news/2022-07-3d- … lites.html

NASA re-establish communication with CAPSTONE craft that went dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -dark.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-27 06:21:45)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-06 18:20:04

Space Development Agency to take another stab at space-to-aircraft laser communications

https://spacenews.com/space-development … nications/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-11 01:38:05

DARPA selects companies for inter-satellite laser communications project

https://spacenews.com/darpa-selects-com … s-project/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-07 05:19:32

Madagascar news domain?

Korean researchers use infrared light to wirelessly transmit power over 100 feet in breakthrough experiment

https://oa.mg/blog/researchers-use-infr … -100-feet/

Having multiple antennas provides operational flexibility and back-up options just in case they are needed. Antennas on rover deck:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecra … nications/
Ultra-High Frequency Antenna
X-band High-Gain Antenna
X-band Low-Gain Antenna

Ultra-High Frequency (UHF) band (about 400 megahertz)
Up to 2 megabits per second on the rover-to-orbiter relay link.

Transmitting data X band (7 to 8 gigahertz)
160/500 bits per second or faster to/from the Deep Space Network's 112-foot-diameter (34-meter-diameter) antennas or at 800/3000 bits per second or faster to/from the Deep Space Network's 230-foot-diameter (70 meter-diameter)

Receiving Data X band (7 to 8 gigahertz)
approximately 10 bits per second or faster from the Deep Space Network's 112-foot-diameter (34-meter-diameter) antennas or approximately 30 bits per second or faster from the Deep Space Network's 230-foot-diameter (70-meter-diameter) antenna

Telecommunications
The telecommunications subsystem is used for receiving and transmitting commands and data. It is a two-way radio system, somewhat similar to a pair of very sophisticated walkie-talkies. The telecom subsystem on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is like one walkie-talkie and the Deep Space Network antenna back on Earth is like the second.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mro/mission/space … nications/
Major components of the telecom subsystem include:
Antennas for transmitting and receiving commands
Amplifiers for boosting the power of radio signals so that they are strong enough to be received at the Deep Space Network antennas
Transponders for translating navigation and other signals from the orbiter

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-07 05:53:57)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-12 08:32:21

Japan's NTT Corporation claims it has developed technologies that allow data transmission at 1.2Tbit per sec per wavelength in an optical system.
https://www.theregister.com/2022/09/07/ … cal_comms/

Infrared Laser can Transmit Electricity Wirelessly Over 30 Meters
https://science-news.co/infrared-laser- … 30-meters/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-12 08:35:55)

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#1 2007-07-04 10:00:31

Re: Communication on Mars

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