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#1 2019-07-12 14:38:11

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

An Economic Model for Mars

Questions of equality, ownership, wealth and fairness in society will always be asked by humans.  I think a "libertarian model" for Mars is unlikely to work since people on Mars will likely be very interdependent and also dependent on the Mars governance entity - whatever that is - for organising supplies from Earth and so on. I would like to suggest the following approach as a way of ensuring that society does not become dominated by a small elite of wealth-concentrators.

1. In order to comply with the Outer Space Treaty there would be no freehold ownership on Mars. Instead land would be licensed by the Mars administration for specified periods - e.g. 5,10, 25, 50 or 100 years.  Land would be licensed for productive purposes. Failure to use land for such purposes (e.g. accommodation, industry, agriculture, leisure) would lead to the licence being revoked. Land licence holders would pay a licence fee to the Mars community.

2. 50% of the land licence fee would go to the Mars government. The other 50% would be distributed to Mars citizens as an annual income supplement. So if there are 100,000 citizens on Mars they will each receive a 100,000th share of half of the income from land licence fees.

3. There will be no income tax.

4. There should be an upper wealth limit set at a multiple of the average wealth of Mars citizens.  The wealth over that limit must be redistributed to the Mars community. 

5. There should be an upper limit on the value of licences held by one person or entities controlled by one person.

6. Companies should be either co-operatives or 50% employee share-owned.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2019-07-12 15:41:10

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,295
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Shrugs. You go do that in your Martian colony. Other colonies will differ. Remember, though, you only get the land you dome over and use, in order to comply with the conditions of the Outer Space Treaty. Well, you don't get the land, but no-one else can use it without violating your ownership rights, so it's effectively yours.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#3 2019-07-12 16:11:20

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

It will be for the Mars Community to decide. I have consistently argued for a uniplanetary government for Mars.  Anything else will just replicate the sorry history of Earth.

Terraformer wrote:

Shrugs. You go do that in your Martian colony. Other colonies will differ. Remember, though, you only get the land you dome over and use, in order to comply with the conditions of the Outer Space Treaty. Well, you don't get the land, but no-one else can use it without violating your ownership rights, so it's effectively yours.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#4 2019-07-12 17:56:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

This topic coinsides with the My Hacienda On Mars as this is the governance of the parcels registry and identification....

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#5 2019-07-12 22:00:30

RobertDyck
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I have proposed a government system where the "national" government imposes minimum laws, stuff like you're talking about would be up to the individual settlement/colony. Your settlement would get as much land as a town, nothing more.

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#6 2019-07-24 21:15:36

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I'd have to agree with RobertDyck for the most part.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#7 2019-07-25 17:52:38

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

The big thing for future moon/mars is that the work done by you for you is the controlling factor for what is done as that is the ownership plaqued into where you are and you can not take what you did not work for from another. You may trade for it but not try to stake a claim to what you have not done. Its only yours after the hand shake....

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#8 2019-07-26 17:53:39

louis
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From: UK
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I don't think we are a million miles apart  - you seem to accept the idea of a planetary wide government with individual settlement governments. That's what I want.

I can see people might think some of my planet-wide laws as being over-prescriptive.  You couldn't have individual settlements opting out of the OST...so that covers a couple of my points.

But I think it is important to establish some basic rules on wealth distribution because it would be far too easy I think for someone with major investment or someone who just "gets lucky" to develop huge, huge wealth on a virgin planet.

So, while I would accept that some of the things I mention are more normally devolved to a lower level pf gpvernance, I think they are appropriate, or rather essential, where you have a planet with almost as many accessible resources as Earth and a population numbered in the hundreds or thousands.

If you want a Darwinian free-for-all, fair enough...but I don't! smile


RobertDyck wrote:

I have proposed a government system where the "national" government imposes minimum laws, stuff like you're talking about would be up to the individual settlement/colony. Your settlement would get as much land as a town, nothing more.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#9 2019-07-26 19:06:43

RobertDyck
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Under my system, the primary purpose of the planet-wide government is to ensure no countries, and no war. Only city states. One key responsibility of the planetary government is to ensure no one can impose laws on others.

  • no one is allowed to own / maintained a military. That includes national guard.

  • no one is allowed to own weapons of war. No fighter jets, no tanks, no hand grenades, no automatic weapons.

  • no one can declare sovereignty over vast areas of land. No states, no counties, etc.

  • no one can impose any tax outside their town / city.

  • Rules such as upper wealth limit, or corporate ownership will be limited to towns / cities. That means each town or city will have different rules. Your proposed rules would apply to your town only, not to all of Mars. And any homestead in the outback would have absolutely no rules.

One major job of the planetary government is to opt out of the Outer Space Treaty. Yes, that's right, OST shall not apply to Mars. There shall be private ownership of land. When an individual or family applies for a homestead, there will be a modest fee which goes exclusively to the planetary government. No redistribution. Once that individual or family purchases that land, it's his/hers/theirs. Private ownership, no caveat. When a corporation purchases a plot of land to mine, that corporation owns that land; again no caveat.

I had considered a payroll tax applied to companies once they're large enough to hire employees who are not part of their immediate family. That payroll tax would pay for healthcare. However, I have been amazed by the backlash. Individuals are shocked at the very idea of any form of tax on Mars.

A town could purchase from the planetary government a large chunk of land for that town. Again, a town sized chunk of land. The town could then either re-sell land within its boundaries, or lease it, or assign free land with a property tax, etc. Up to the town. I had proposed the capital city would construct a large building like a shopping mall that provides pressure, heat, oxygen recycling, protection from dust storms and radiation. A space within this large building would be leased. The lease fee would include all everything that municipal property tax would cover here on Earth. But that's the capital city, other towns/cities could do what they want.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-07-26 19:07:53)

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#10 2019-07-26 20:43:32

kbd512
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

The Good:

The upper value limit of licenses held by one person or small group of people and employee-owned companies are generally good ideas.

Unenforceable space treaties being ignored for economic and private property rights purposes is also a good idea.

The Bad:

If there are wealth limits, then you simply won't have anyone with wealth above that limit living on Mars.  Thereafter, that "wealth limit" will be successively lowered until Peter is forced to pay for Paul, whether Peter can actually afford to do so or not.  Robbing Peter to pay Paul has failed spectacularly each and every time it's been tried here on Earth, so why not try it on Mars to prove that it doesn't work there, either?

I love that pathological refusal to accept human nature.  Sorry, but communism / socialism flat-out doesn't work- unless you have an endless supply of other peoples' money to pay for the stupidity of a select few people who think they know how to best spend other peoples' money.  In all practical cases, you'll be "paying tribute" to someone too incompetent to manage their own money, never mind everyone else's.  Hierarchies are established due to competence, but they fail for the same reason.  Most people are utterly incompetent with money, and consequently have little of it.  In a capitalist economy, there's a dis-incentive to be stupid with your money.  Equally important, there's also a dis-incentive to grant governments the authority to be stupid with the peoples' money.  In practice, this must be enforced by not giving them a penny more than is absolutely necessary to do what little they must do.  Unfortunately, hierarchies also tend towards tyranny, which is why they remain an intractable yet necessary problem.  A wise person would simply figure out how to most effectively limit the damage that a tyrannical hierarchy could inflict on others.  The westernized republic / nation-state governance systems distributed power between different branches of government for precisely that reason.  As bad as that decision was, all of the other alternatives produced far worse results, and continue to do so to this day.  A foolish and/or miserable person would try to create equality of outcome, no matter the competence of all involved.  I guess misery loves company.

Anarchy has worked so well everywhere else it's been tried, so why not try it in a place where trust and cooperation is a life-and-death matter?

Give me a break.  There are rules everywhere two or more people are involved.  When you're truly on your own, then there's no need for behavioral rules because you can do whatever you like without consequence to anyone but yourself.

The Very Ugly:

No militaries, either, huh?  How exactly would that be enforced after the first military shows up?  You gonna wave white flags at the invaders and hope that they're merciful?  Good grief.  Snap back to reality.  Oh, there goes gravity.  No, you won't get off that easy.  Seriously, go eat some of Mom's spaghetti.  Apologies to Eminem.  After you've had a good meal and some rest, give that one a re-think.  Here's a crazy thought.  If military commanders were permitted to tell politicians to go pound sand if their activities would cause needless death and suffering, humanity likely would've seen 1/10th or less of all the wars that ever were.  Maybe old men and women shouldn't tell young men and women what they should fight and die for?  Why, yes, that's true magical thinking right there.

We couldn't just stop electing entitled, self-righteous dip twaddles who think they can murder their way out of their governance problems, could we?

I guess that would require a level of intestinal fortitude and forethought beyond the capabilities of the "deep thinkers" of our societies.

The Practical:

Here's another crazy thought.  Apply what works best here on Earth.  That may be dramatically different from your own ideation about what you wish would work, but there it is.  Human nature / behavior should factor heavily into what taxes / laws / systems of governance are applied.  New does not necessarily mean better.  In point of fact, very little hasn't been tried at one point in time or another.

We have income and payroll taxes.  We have private property rights.  We have militaries to chase off invaders and policing forces that enforce the laws.  We have laws that are applicable at different levels and in different ways that are situationally-dependent.  We have those things for good reasons, even if everyone everyone throughout all times doesn't agree with them in all cases.  Once again, there are rules for everything, whenever two or more people are involved.  If you don't give governments the power and money to become tyrannical, then they'll have a really hard time accomplishing that.  Unfortunately, such an achievement requires LOTS of forethought.  Many an idea that looked fantastic on paper failed miserably in action.

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#11 2019-07-26 23:35:19

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

kbd512,

I described my system in detail in a separate discussion thread. I thought it was well understood. When I said "no military", I also said that is enforced by the national/planetary government having the only military. There's no need for the planetary government to fight with anyone, because they already rule the entire planet and both moons. And yes, without some sort of military, someone on Earth would come to conquer. So the planetary military is there to ensure no one else builds a military, as well as defence from extra-planetary threats.

Louis's ideas about wealth redistribution, limits, and corporate ownership are things I don't agree with. I would not allow them on Mars. But, my system would allow individual villages / towns / cities to be established with whatever governance they want, so within the limitation of one municipality, have at it.

I also said the city police of the capital city would double as national police. Until the planetary economy grew large enough for a separate national police force. City bylaws would only apply within city limits. National laws would be minimal, but national police would be there to deal with murder, robbery, etc.

I said my system would be tied to the corporation that operates settler transport from Earth. That would be the primary source of revenue. The capital city on Mars would provide supplies, and spare parts for maintenance/repairs. That will require significant industry right off the bat. That corporation would subsidize the national government, and the corporation would build the capital city to provide said supplies. The capital city would have a steady source of revenue from said industry, as well as anyone else who wants to lease space. So the police force of the capital city would be well funded, hence them doubling as national police.

Since settlers would be the primary source of revenue, Mars would have to remain a libertarian paradise. No tax, no limit on personal wealth, where the little guy is celebrated and encouraged. The corporation would use success stories for their advertising on Earth. Joe Blow established a cottage industry in his homestead in the outback, manufacturing spacesuit helmets in competition with those produced by the corporation in the capital city. Helmets by Joe Blow are innovative, reliable, and affordable. Everyone wants one! The corporation decided to shut down production of their helmets, instead the corporate factory is making microwave ovens. Can you be a success like Joe Blow? The next colonial transport departs in 3 weeks, for the low low ticket price of the entire life savings of a typical middle class individual.

::Edit:: Corporate Government

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-07-27 11:26:37)

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#12 2019-07-27 08:03:59

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

For Louis ... thanks for starting this topic ...

Contributions so far are encouraging to me  ... it should have legs ... I'll try to add substance here ...

This Sol, a new member dropped by to post an advertisement for IT services.   ( kanewatson)

While the specific offering is irrelevant to this forum (as far as I can tell) the posting DOES fit into this new topic, with a bit of stretching.

A new planet settled by first tier citizens of another planet is going to be operating at a technology level very close to the bleeding edge, if not on it, primarily because the need for the maximum possible effectiveness of every action taken, and the need for minimal possible waste.

In the mix will be IT services, which will exist in the first vessel that lands.  In fact, it could be argued (as I think about it) that we (humans) have already established a sophisticated IT/communications network on Mars.

RobertDyck's presentation of his ideas for a planetary government reminded me of the need for a planetary Intranet policy from day one.

The Mars Intranet will certainly need to interface with the Earth Internet.

Just as some Nations on Earth are implementing solutions to wall off their internal internet systems from the outside world, the Intranet for Mars should (in my opinion) be designed from the beginning to insure isolation from outside is possible, and on very short notice.  A new vessel arriving from Earth (or anywhere) could contain malware designed to take over the Mars Intranet, or specific sections, or specific customers.

Similarly, while no one has brought this up (in the posts I have seen, which is only a fraction of the total here), there would most assuredly be a need for quarantine of arriving vessels.

Biological pathogens would be the first concern, but in today's interconnected world, electronic pathogens would be of equal concern.

A reasonable location for a quarantine station would be Phobos.

There was discussion earlier in this thread about taxes.  Some are for them and some are agin' 'em.  However, the history of the human race in recent centuries suggests to me that there will be financial exchanges at the "border" (point of entry) to Mars, so I would expect the Planetary Government to implement duty stations in association with the quarantine facilities.

All this (and other) attributes of a Planetary Government could be set in place before the first human sets foot on Mars, and THIS forum is as good a place as any to thrash out the details.

(th)

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#13 2019-07-27 19:02:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Sounds like an International Space Station would work ok in mars orbit
earth ISS statistics average altitude of 400 kilometres (250 mi)
Orbital speed    7.66 km/s (27,600 km/h; 17,100 mph)
Orbital period    92.68 minutes
Orbits per day    15.54

Phobos orbits 6,000 km (3,700 mi) from the Martian surface,
Orbital period: 0.31891023 d; (7 h 39.2 min)
Surface gravity: 0.0057 m/s2; (581.4 µ g)
Rotation period: Synchronous
Equatorial rotation velocity: 11.0 km/h (6.8 mph) .

Even the time for earth to iss redevous is days the same would hold true for mars phobos...

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#14 2019-07-27 21:25:44

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 6,035
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

Even the time for earth to iss redevous is days the same would hold true for mars phobos...

There's no need for this. Gemini 6A rendezvoused with Gemini 7 in 5 hours and 4 minutes. The multi-day rendezvous with ISS is just lazy.

Wikipedia: Gemini 7

Gemini 6A was launched on December 15, after a three-day-long delay due to a malfunction and engine shutdown immediately after ignition. It entered into an 87-by-140-nautical-mile (161 by 259 km) orbit, and was briefly visible from Gemini 7 just after launch. Borman and Lovell were also able to see the contrail from the launch.

The plan called for the rendezvous to take place on the fourth orbit of Gemini 6A. Their first burn came 94 minutes after launch when they increased their velocity by 16.5 ft/s (5.0 m/s). Due to their lower orbit they were gaining on Gemini 7 and were 634 nautical miles (1,174 km) behind. The next burn was at 2 hours and 18 minutes when Gemini 6A made a phase adjustment to put them on the same orbital inclination as Gemini 7. They now only trailed by 261 nautical miles (483 km).

The radar on Gemini 6A first made contact with Gemini 7 at 3 hours and 15 minutes when they were 234 nautical miles (433 km) away. A third burn put them into a 146-by-148-nautical-mile (270 by 274 km) orbit. As they slowly gained, Walter Schirra put Gemini 6A's computer in charge of the rendezvous, and at five hours and four minutes, he saw a bright object that he at first thought was the star Sirius, but was in fact Gemini 7.

After several more burns the two spacecraft were only 130 feet (40 m) apart. The burns had only used 110 pounds (50 kg) of fuel on Gemini 6A, leaving plenty of fuel. During the next 270 minutes the crews moved as close as 1 foot (30 cm), talking over the radio. At one stage the spacecraft were station-keeping so well that neither crew had to make any burns for 20 minutes.

As the sleep periods approached, Gemini 6A made a separation burn and slowly drifted out to 16 kilometers, to prevent an accidental collision in the night. Gemini 6A reentered the next day, landing within 9.7 nautical miles (18.0 km) of the planned site, the first truly accurate atmospheric reentry.

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#15 2019-07-28 09:03:02

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

A launch from the same sight but from earth trying to catch the phobos moon on an aerocapture will mean first slowing down and then trying to get to the phobos facility. Going in reverse from mars launch means not just getting back to orbit but at a speed thats well above launch.
An orbital facility for mars would be a good connection to making mars profitable.

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#16 2019-10-12 19:20:52

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
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Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Do lower gravity, thinner atmospheric pressure and other natural attributes on Mars favor space industry and manufacturing?

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#17 2019-10-12 20:11:24

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

For knightdepaix re #16 ... thank you for bringing this topic back to visibility since July.

For SpaceNut re #15 ... knightdepaix brought your post of 2019-07-28 back to light, and I then connected a recent post (possibly by Calliban) about using solar power satellites in Mars orbit to send microwave energy to space vehicles coming and going in the vicinity of Mars.

The difficulty of docking with Phobos (as compared to the relative "simplicity" of aerocapture) can be alleviated if arriving ships are equipped with rectenna able to receive sufficient power from an SPS in orbit around Mars, and assuming they have throw mass on board to accelerate to useful speeds.  A concern that will surely worry system designers is risk due to sending mass greater than ions toward Mars as vehicles decelerate.  A business opportunity would appear to exist for a service of meeting incoming spacecraft and gently slowing them to match orbit with Phobos. 

If the people of Mars implement a quarantine protocol on Phobos (as any sensible people would do) then it would make sense to plan ahead to facilitate docking with Phobos for all incoming traffic, and a service vessel powered by SPS microwaves could certainly help with that.

The idea of allowing ships from Earth (or anywhere else for that matter) to just plunk themselves down on Mars without a by-your-leave is NOT one that will survive in the real Universe, after the first permanent settlement is established.

Edit: The post I was remembering was indeed by Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 98#p160998

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-10-12 20:31:05)

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#18 2019-10-13 05:45:59

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I doubt it.

Free land, free mining (no licence costs), free water and no tax would be helpful, maybe reducing costs by 25% compared with Earth.

The main impediment in terms of serving markets on Earth, would be the cost of space transport. At maybe a million dollars a ton, that's a lot of cost. For me that implies working in the luxury end of the market on things like watch manufacture (I think Rolex incorporating Mars materials could command high prices back on Earth) and  clothing (light items like scarves perhaps). Longer term you could probably make money out of Japanese style beef production but whether it's a good idea to introduce cattle to Mars is an open question.


knightdepaix wrote:

Do lower gravity, thinner atmospheric pressure and other natural attributes on Mars favor space industry and manufacturing?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#19 2019-10-13 06:17:20

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

For Louis re #18

knightdepaix appears to (me at least) have asked two questions in one in his post.  You have addressed the question knightdepaix might have asked, had his wording been consistent between the two clauses.  However, he actually asked about "space industry and manufacturing" which is completely different.

I tried to answer with an activity that would be space based, and would qualify as "space industry".   

In my opinion, it is useful to forget about Earth as a market for materials goods from Mars (or anywhere).  As Edward Lerner has worked out in great detail, the future of commerce lies in the realm of digital exchange, and the value of THAT is literally unlimited.

The features of Mars that knightdepaix cites might be seen as market ** opportunities ** for space manufacturing, since settlers on Mars are going to need a constant forever supply of mechanical systems to sustain their lives and their activities.  The logical place for much if not most of that manufacture is in space, and NOT on the surface, for many decades, so designers of business for the Mars market would/will be thinking about how to take advantage of the natural resources which are abundant in the Solar System.

(th)

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#20 2019-10-13 07:33:21

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I may have misinterpreted what Knight was getting at, in which case my apologies.

There's no doubt there will indigenous industry on Mars e.g. manufacturing PV panels, building electric motors, manufacturing rovers and so on. But for the next 30 years it is unlikely that the population will amount to more than several thousand in my view. If it reaches 7000 that will be roughly one millionth the population on Earth. I am just putting that in context because ongoing colonisation costs might be something like $1 billion per annum. Of course people on Mars are going to hugely productive compared with people on Earth.

It's an open question whether, purely in terms of the Mars-based economy, they could cover those costs. They might be able to construct their own rockets and interplanetary transporter. There's no doubt they could produce the fuel. That would be a huge advance. Then at the Earth end, all that might be required is for a Starship to go up to the interplanetary transporter and bring down people and cargo.

In terms of the Mars economy it's useful to distinguish:

1. Earth-derived subsidies (a philanthropist might just decide to donate $1 billion to the project).

2. Mars exports to Earth (e.g. regolith, meteorites, gold, materials for science research, novelty goods and luxury manufactures)

3. Payments to Space X (or whoever) for transport to and from Mars.

4. Mars-based services (payments received for Mars based services such as accommodation, surface transport, life support, advertising opportunities, art projects, university branches and science experimentation projects) paid for out of the Earth economy.

5. Commercial sponsorship of Mars-related activities by Earth based entities.

6. Indigenous Mars-based industry,  agriculture and services (e.g. PV panel manufacture, growing food for settlers/visitors and retail services).

7. Sale of Mars-related items (often copyrighted) back on Earth e.g. films, books and so on. TV and film rights would come under this.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #18

knightdepaix appears to (me at least) have asked two questions in one in his post.  You have addressed the question knightdepaix might have asked, had his wording been consistent between the two clauses.  However, he actually asked about "space industry and manufacturing" which is completely different.

I tried to answer with an activity that would be space based, and would qualify as "space industry".   

In my opinion, it is useful to forget about Earth as a market for materials goods from Mars (or anywhere).  As Edward Lerner has worked out in great detail, the future of commerce lies in the realm of digital exchange, and the value of THAT is literally unlimited.

The features of Mars that knightdepaix cites might be seen as market ** opportunities ** for space manufacturing, since settlers on Mars are going to need a constant forever supply of mechanical systems to sustain their lives and their activities.  The logical place for much if not most of that manufacture is in space, and NOT on the surface, for many decades, so designers of business for the Mars market would/will be thinking about how to take advantage of the natural resources which are abundant in the Solar System.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#21 2019-10-13 13:17:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

The cost on the earth to mars side is going to more I would think as the number of ships per flight to mars requires 4 - 6 refuelings before you can even go. If each ship is 100 million for the launch, the 1 billion is going to be eaten up quite quickly even with recycling/ refueling as we have not even added in the 100 t cargo costs for the rockets carrrying it to mars.

The cost on mars is long hours toiling to produce materials to make everything with insitu mars processing from the equipment which did cost to send to mars. Those that send you to mars will be wanting all cost repaid long before they will even consider it mars profits to make an economy. The bigger the cost the higher the number of hours needed to repay the transport and equipment as I am sure they will be holding the rights for it as you will be only paid to operate it.

The trick for the person is to make the equipment from the things they take with them which they can payback sooner on their hours with the remaining hours in the day to make there own profits. They will still need to barter or pay for the return costs to earth plus handling of there product once its back home for sale and mars label branding.

The trick is to remove the cost to go home as soon as one can so as to reduce the need for items coming from earth so that you are able to make some real money not working for the company.

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#22 2019-10-16 21:32:58

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

about tahanson #19,

Digital exchange including the Internet would likely be communication with a central server on the Mars settlement. The central server communicate with Martian geosynchronous satellites, then thru which with Earth geosynchronous satellites, finally reaching designated radio telescopes.

If there is a technical college or university on Mars, the electrical, computer and information engineering and technology department and the finance and accounting department are going to be responsible for the maintenance. Does the remoteness on Mars to Earth provide unprecendented security to assets, such as monetary in bitcoins? For example, if artificial mineral or isotope attributes can be easily made or extracted on Mars in comparison to its production on Earth, the coins or piece made of the minerals or isotopes carry the value of a gold standard. Those attributes are reflective to quantum key distributions using isotopes.

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#23 2019-10-17 07:38:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I've wondered whether the Starlink network orbiting Earth would somehow be able to pick up a signal from Mars? What do you think? If possible I am sure Musk would like to attempt it rather than rely on NASA's coms system.

Isn't Bitcoin totally notional and  based on computer calculations underaken - block-chain?

That said, I think a Mars community would have something to sell back on Earth in terms of security. It's quite possible that, say, the Library of Congress might want to preserve a digital version of the Library on a server on Mars. Likewise British Museum and numerous other big "collections" of data. With full 3D recording of artefacts you could at least produce replicas if the original were lost.

I guess some countries might consider holding gold reserves on Mars. They could even "swap" gold on Earth for gold on Mars...so they might sell say a few kgs of gold on Earth, while paying Space X 50% of the Earth value to create an equivalent gold reserve on Mars. Would that work? Possibly, it's all a matter of confidence I think. It would be a cheaper way of realising the value of gold on Mars than shipping it back to Earth.

I have advocated the creation of a Mars currency as a way of oiling the wheels of Mars-Earth commerce and encouraging investment on Mars. My suggestion is that rather than allowing the currency to float or to be related to precious metals, it should be linked to the value of power generation on Mars.  So for example, if the power generation is 1,000 GwHs in one year, 10 million Mars dollars are manufactured that year, but if the power generation rises to 10,000 GwHs the number of Mars dollars produced that year is increased to 
100 million Mars dollars and so on. This would mean currency kept a fairly constant relation with activity on Mars, measured in terms of power usage and would provide confidence to investors that Mars dollars will not depreciate through economic mismanagement or the like.




knightdepaix wrote:

about tahanson #19,

Digital exchange including the Internet would likely be communication with a central server on the Mars settlement. The central server communicate with Martian geosynchronous satellites, then thru which with Earth geosynchronous satellites, finally reaching designated radio telescopes.

If there is a technical college or university on Mars, the electrical, computer and information engineering and technology department and the finance and accounting department are going to be responsible for the maintenance. Does the remoteness on Mars to Earth provide unprecendented security to assets, such as monetary in bitcoins? For example, if artificial mineral or isotope attributes can be easily made or extracted on Mars in comparison to its production on Earth, the coins or piece made of the minerals or isotopes carry the value of a gold standard. Those attributes are reflective to quantum key distributions using isotopes.

Last edited by louis (2019-10-17 12:43:26)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#24 2019-10-17 07:57:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Someday cellphones for mars would call home to talk with neighbors and friends

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#25 2019-10-17 12:26:38

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

For SpaceNut ...

SpaceNut wrote:

Someday cellphones for mars would call home to talk with neighbors and friends

That would be an impressive cellphone!

(th)

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