New Mars Forums

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

You might also try to drum up new members by getting accounts on other forums.

Start a simular topic in them and point back to this one to aid in recruting efforts.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For RobertDyck ... Thanks for a helpful tip!  There are several activities that showed up when I asked Mr. Google about Mars on Second Life.

At this point I have not been able to determine if Mars Society has a presence on Second Life (or any other virtual platform).

I am not aware of any official presence. However, there are people who have done things. Just do a Google search for "Second Life Mars" and you will find several. None are officially part of the Mars Society, but all have something to do with Mars.

I am particularly interested in this:

Mars Productions Moderate
Main Store: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/B … 45/176/664
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/66949
Radio: http://marsproductions.ddns.net:8000
Feb 2018: Newsletter 54
Upgrader v136
Ring of Compliance v96 - Addins: SpeakWhenSpokenTo v20,Remote v6,Automatic v14,Cage v11,Doll v6
Multi-Relay v11
Total HUD v2
Gag v30
Gas Jet v7
Blindfold v2
Skirts v15
Control Zone v30
Teleporter v19
Gothic Cell v21
Laser Door/Cell v7
Cell v4
Quest v20
QD Gun v8
Laser Exterminator v1
Pay v2

Founder
mars.tamale
Members
1212
Enrollment
Open Enrollment
View group info in Viewer sidebar

<< Sigh >>  This may be a typical Second Life money making activity without much connection to the planet.

I'll check it out but am not optimistic.  Still .... gotta start somewhere!

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut ... thanks for an interesting suggestion .... I thought of the Reddit subreddit that Edward heisler helped to start.

That site seemed on the busy side when I visited a few weeks back. 

(th)

You might also try to drum up new members by getting accounts on other forums.

Start a simular topic in them and point back to this one to aid in recruting efforts.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

SpaceNut's discovery of two studies (one for Mars and one for Phobos) inspired thoughts of site preparation for landing fully built habitat structures.

Assuming the desired location is one of the plots in Sagan City (2018):

Robot equipment (perhaps with telepresence from Phobos) can dig a vertical shaft for the habitat, and horizontal tunnels for transportation between habitats.

The tailings from the excavations can be piled on the surface for future use, which could included radiation covers but could also include feedstock for bricks or other objects useful to either the Hacienda itself, or to customers.

I'm thinking (in particular) of landing a Starship-class vehicle in a vertical shaft, for immediate occupancy.

The nose of the vessel could be above the local surface, allowing for viewing the surroundings, while the bulk of the vehicle would be below surface level, protected from wind, dust and radiation.

The vehicle could be prepared for service as a habitat during a layover at Phobos.

Links found by SpaceNut:

HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT: PHOBOS BASE

#23 of Rubble Piles

SpaceNut

A Permanent Settlement on Mars

SpaceNut #8 of Habitat Design on Mars

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-28 07:33:31)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Sure the buildings might remind you of the Flintstones but for Mars they are the real deal.

This was the nuclear fission hydrogen system that was propsed for the moons use and is in the kilowatt sizing

Home for family

A place to call home

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For all ...

The local paper ran a story recently, about an individual who is growing salt water shrimp inland.  It seems to me this activity is a natural to be considered for Mars, and the people who could make it happen are alive on Earth today, in 2019. 

I would very much like to see someone bid for a plot in Sagan City (2018) with the intention of creating a conceptual framework for this particular business. Because of the Rule of Three for capitalist society, I would like to see at least three plots reserved to develop this capability, so that the rudiments of a functioning marketplace will be in place for this specialty.

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20190 … -cambridge

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

One issue is at the place in time to which such developement can take place. Since the water needs earth level pressures to keep it from evaporating. Which means to make it practicle as a food source we will need a very large structure along with tons of water to go with the tank which the shrimp will be housed in. Any aquatic food will fall into much of the same demands for airation of the water, circulation and filtering to keep what we do not want growing in it. You just might find a topic or so that talks about water based foods.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Here are a few more newmars topics to aid with settlement.

Terraced housing development

"Chevron Shielding", borrowed from space habitat , adapted to Mars

Infrastructure support:
Fuel Cell Development, Application, Prospects

Power to gas is the way forward for storage

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Thanks for the content as it would apply here as well for the post 58 second image design:

What I'm thinking about is sort of like what was discussed in this thread, using a large deep hole to get a higher atmospheric pressure.  Unlike the discussions in the thread I was thinking not to use SF6 but instead to use Mars's native CO2 atmosphere.  The ten trillion dollar question is how deep of a hole you'd need to dig before the pressure becomes tenable for humans.

Luckily, we have the barometric formula, reproduced below:

https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media … 5efb6f69d4

Where

P is the pressure at height h
P_b is the pressure at h=0 (0.6 kPa at the datum)
M is the mean molar mass of the gas (0.044 kg/mol for Mars's predominantly CO2 atmosphere)
g_0 is the gravity (3.7 m/s^2)
R is the universal gas constant, 8.314 J/molK
Tb is the atmospheric temperature (I'll assume 250 K)
(h-hb) is the height

To get a 40 kPa atmosphere (40% of Earth mean sea level) according to this equation you would need to dig a hole to about 54 km below the datum.  Mars's extreme topographical variation helps a bit: Valles Marineris is 4 km below the datum, and Hellas 9.  You might dig a hole with angled sides at 45 degrees having funiculars running up and down the sides (angled so that sunlight reaches the bottom and for material stability) with a town at the bottom where a gas exchange seal (but not a pressure seal) keeps in an oxygenated atmosphere.  A Trench of Babel, if you would.  The much thicker atmosphere at the bottom would likely result in fairly warm air there compared to the surface.  Plants could certainly survive, and even begin the process of oxygen generation.  You might even fill some of the bottom with water to create a nice lake or sea (but on the other hand, perhaps not: Any humidity would certainly condense into clouds or fog near the top and block the sunlight).

It's a megaproject for sure.  My question is, once you get past the massive scale of earthmoving that would be required, just how hard it would be.  Could it be done?

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I was reminded of the book for mars in that it suggests a "Tent Towns" and joshnh4h has created that new topic.
It suggests a mobility effort ....

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Snip:

The idea has been to set up "summer camps" to give lower school kids exposure to some of the occupations which still exist in the state where I live.

There will be 27 of these camps in this state this summer.  They last for a week, and a typical enrollment is 23 kids.

The days, organized by leaders in local schools, economic development and business, are chock-full of information, hands-on projects, in-person witnessing of various types of jobs, and sometimes even viewing the making of a product from start to finish.

The title of the piece is "Promoting factory jobs".

And that brings me back to the point you made, SpaceNut ... the camps are certainly a good idea, because future businesses are certainly going to need workers, but they continue the focus on JOBS which you have repeatedly spotlighted in your posts, and they DO NOT (as far as I can determine) offer a glimpse of what it takes to create a business in the first place.

In the My Hacienda topic which exists (as far as I know) ONLY on this forum, was opened (with the help of RobertDyck)  to create a conceptual framework in which up to 2750 people could define business activity upon which they would like to concentrate in the Mars setting. My expectation is that just about ANY business that might be imagined for Sagan City would work well right here on Earth.
(th)

The camp mars would have lots of oportunity for business under the mobile aspect.

So the plan to travel brings up why would we.

Exploration, Science, Sampling, Identifying for future use, topographical contour verification, site selection process for the future planetary settlement....

Mars is starting with a near zero for most all category and resources until sustainable power is excess to make use of.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Five things you need to do to build a home on mars

Mars City Design

Space x to Mars city: How to build on mars

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut #62 ...

Impressive set of links!

There are too many ideas to discuss in a quick note, but I would like to highlight 3D printing of ice ... That is an idea which ought to be of interest on Earth.  Igloos were (of course) built by hand, and (apparently) may still be constructed for temporary shelter.

The idea of building anything permanent out of ice would probably inspire skepticism among persons living in temperate climates on Earth.  However, it might make sense in a location where temperatures never rise above 0 degrees Celsius.

(th)

Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

My Hacienda doesn't have flush toilets. They're a waste of water, and the splash back is unpleasant enough under Terran gravity. Instead, we use composting toilets. It really helps with the soil building for the forest.

---

Use what is abundant and build to last

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For Terraformer re #64 ...

Bravo for this detail of the design and configuration of your Hacienda .... Please continue adding details as you are inspired.  My vision for this topic is to populate Sagon City (2018) with 2750 plots as carefully thought through as yours promises to be.

As a reminder, your plot is Number 0004.  To establish your claim, please add the text Plot0004 to the post you will use as the foundation of your design.

Once you have done that, you can return to that post using the FluxBB search tool.  Use the Plot tag and your ID as the author, and you'll be taken right to it. Once there, you can use the FluxBB Edit tool to add new details.

For anyone not already registered, you can see the records by using the search term:

S e a r c h T e r m:  and :R e c o r d e r   Author: tahanson43206  (remove the spaces.  I use those for illustration, to avoid duplicate hits when I search)

I am looking for 2743 more NewMars members to populate the region chosen by Louis for Sagon City (2018).

Edit ... for Terraformer ... I went back and found our earlier conversation about your interest in growing bamboo.

That would (could) be the focus of a full time activity.  If you are so inspired, please research how such an operation would work on Mars, and add the equipment and procedure to your plot record.  If you decide to do this, it will be helpful for others who may wish to study your post, To add a tag, such as Bamboo.

Example: Tag:Bamboo

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-06-20 06:58:51)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I did a quick NewMars Forum Search for Composting Toilet and much to my surprise its been mentioned a few time in pass but these topics go more to the heart. Sewage treatment with a twist for life support proposal - water/waste recycling, food production

Edit removed Selective searches as they do not stay

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #66 ...

Thanks for bringing back earlier discussions ... I enjoyed reviewing the ones you showed .... Some went back to 2004, and they still seemed fresh because not a lot has changed.  void really came up with an interesting stilt supported concept, with his sets of three drums. 

I noticed that someone mentioned bamboo, in discussion of growing wood ... that was around the subject of making toilet paper, although I don't think the bamboo was intended for toilet paper.  I hope Terraformer will investigate the suitability of bamboo as a feed stock for toilet paper manufacture.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Unassigned plot 0038

A simple google on Bamboo toilet paper got a yes we can and here its sold Silk'n Soft Bamboo Toilet Paper - Tree-Free Environment Safe Biodegradable Septic-Safe Fragrance Free Strong Dependable Panda Friendly

wood fiber is wood fiber

Bamboo has also made it into a few topics for materials and I think when young its edible....

Which of course brings up materials for mars use timelines and more...

Topic list on Newmars

Technology trees and toolchains

Trees

Bamboo

Bamboo shoots up the chart

edit occurred aftrer unassignment to registry

this would incould other types of trees and fruit bearing for individual growth.

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For Louis .... this is a special request for the Americans in the 2750 residents of Sagan City (2018) a few years from now ...

This Sol (100) coincides with the American holiday of the 4th of July.  Since you have established a much appreciated entertainment complex on (and in) your plot in Sagan City (2018), folks naturally think of making an excursion to your facility to celebrate the day.  Americans will be the focus, but everyone will be welcome to join in whatever festivities you have in mind, to the limit of your facility, which might well be large enough for everyone.

Please tickle your fertile imagination to describe the entertainment you will have on offer.

It seems (to me at least) best to omit politics from the situation if possible.  The Americans will (no doubt) be doing that aplenty on Earth, but (hopefully) the Americans stationed in Sagan City (2018) will be more restrained.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I agree no politics...
Mars one day will celebrate a day of independance from earth as well even if it is only crudely related to others from the many nations of earth its self.
Not to long ago one would think that a celebration using fireworks was about the one and only but since its tied to many other events from the entrance themes of the WWE entertainers to other closing of summer events called old home week.
Mars will have its own reason to be mars....

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Something to note for farming of a parcel is to not plant a large single crop type as that does not feed a population as we require a diverse variety of foods to eat. The types and even the growing methods also mean a variety of harvesting equipment will be needed for mars. It also means with earth food cycles timing them so that we plant just enough square footage in order to balance all of these such that if we want salads that all ingredients are available to make it at a near continous rate for each of them. Other items we would eat may be of a non fresh variety and with such freezing, canning or preserving all for them to fill the food selection voids.
Of course building large parcel structures will not happen for quite some time so lots of smaller more diverse types would be beneficial to early mars.

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #71 ...

Thank you for keeping My Hacienda in occasional view.  Something I hope readers of this forum will note, is that the proposal is for 2750 undertakings to achieve a Division of Labor, and Specialization needed to sustain a Level 1 (Earth style) civilization. 

The limitations of initial landings are presumed to be past, and the resident community will be at least 2750 people, and since each Hacienda is planned to be 1 kilometer on a side (on the surface) there is plenty of room for more than one person.

In that context, I would expect that a given Hacienda would concentrate on becoming competitive with one crop, and perhaps one service.

It is to be expected that more than one Hacienda would concentrate on a given crop, so that healthy competition can exist, (on the one hand) and so that a diversity of sources of needed materials is available (on the other).

I would like to see at least three competitors in every specialty.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

2019/08/18 Earth Time

The My Hacienda topic is capable of supporting a virtual community of 2750 people leading teams to define activities on and within plots defined for Sagan City (2018).

Each plot is defined as a 1 kilometer square section of the surface of Mars located in a circle around a point selected by Louis (of NewMars forum) in 2018.

Functions needed to support a “First World” level culture in Sagan City would include:

Surveyor
Plumbing Contractor
Power Equipment Supplier and Maintainer
Air Equipment Supplier and Maintainer
Water Supplier

Knowledge/Skills needed would include:

Chemistry
Physics
Engineering
Medicine (Physical, Mental)

The concept I have in mind is to assemble a team of Earth citizens interested in helping to build a virtual community, able to emulate one that can be imagined for Mars in a few decades time.

It is also possible that the process of creating such a virtual community will inspire creation of new communities on Earth, designed to operate to the extent possible as live models of what might be done on Mars, without the physical challenges Mars presents.

The challenges of building a new first world community on Earth are daunting enough.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Masony or stone building
add to medicine dietary nutrition
Under contractor and for all things related to power you will want electrical wiring and electronic control build
Mining and heavy equipment operators.

If one could look at a time elaspe contruction and look at the skills needed to build just a Biosphere project on earth one might get a lot of knowledge for what we will need for mars.

I travel through a decade long project of road lane expansion and bridges so I have seen the issues of some of these having to drive through the constant lane up grades as they add in more lanes. In situ use of bed rock blasting and cracking, much of the level filling to flatten out the up and downs in the area.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,361

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re development of My Hacienda topic ...

Thanks again for supporting development of this topic!

Your first posts in the newly created topic took place on

2019-01-30 20:00:25

If one of those early posts  looked appropriate for an anchor, you can edit that post with plot0003 and begin to build up text in support of the specialty you might have in mind.

Because you are a person with wide ranges of interests, it might be difficult to select one specialization you'd like to develop, but I'm hoping you can think of something, because the idea I'm encouraging is for Division of Labor and Specialization to express themselves in the context of a virtual Mars community.

Edit: I have a suggestion for a specialty, added at the bottom

There will be (as just one example) a market demand for fresh tomatoes.  I am particularly interested in this vegetable, because I've been watching with fascination as market forces (and the US/Canadian economic system) drive the invention, production, distribution and marketing of more and more "ideal" varieties of tomato.  In the particular instance of the tomatoes I buy from the local market, the tomatoes are of uniform size, of about 3 cm diameter, and remarkably flavorful.  These tomatoes are succeeding despite their cost, because they make the competition taste like wet paper in comparison.

I'd expect there to be strong, consistent demand for tomatoes of this quality by residents on Mars, and (in that case) I'd like to see a minimum of three suppliers, so that competition can deliver product to a range of customers at prices they can afford, as we see on Earth.   The minimum of three expectation will (if followed) provide redundancy in case difficulty strikes one of the producers, but it does imply (to me at least) that the share of the market enjoyed by any one of the vendors will vary over time, as customers adjust their behavior.

All that said, in the context of the My Hacienda community, the producer of tomatoes is going to be dependent upon other members of the community to supply power, water, chemicals, distribution and other elements I've not thought of.   Thus, I would hope forum members would step up to specialize in the needed products and services.

Edit: SpaceNut, a natural specialization for your plot, if you are willing, would be the justice system, and law enforcement in particular.  You are already performing that function in the NewMars forum.  The number of banned ID's is testimony to your ability to make decisions, to take action, and (in general) to hold people accountable for their actions.

In a community of only 2750 Haciendas, I don't see a need for more than one person to head up the legal system, but you can certainly add deputies as they are needed, or  specific specializations as the need for them becomes apparent.

Three positions I could see needed early on are: Judge, Prosecutor and Defense attorney.

The subject is fresh in my mind, because I just witnessed the progress of the local justice system, from the initial burglary on October 3rd of Earth Year 2018, through the judgement on August 22nd.  The back and forth between the judge, the prosecutor and the defense attorney was fascinating (to me) to watch, although it can also be characterized as tedious, because the perpetrator was a participant, and it (I gather) took a lot of convincing for him to accept the verdict, which I thought was fair.

In this case, let us hope you would have little to do, because (hopefully) everyone who decides to participate as a plot holder would behave in a way that would advance everyone's interests, but the occasional exception may occur.

Still, I am hoping you will consider defining the buildings and services you would like to establish on your plot.  This could lead to others accepting responsibility for meeting particular subsets of your requirements.  Thus, part of your responsibility would include enforcement of contracts.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-01 07:19:33)