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#251 2020-10-22 18:50:22

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Minerals and element maps for mars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_Mars

Based on these data sources, scientists think that the most abundant chemical elements in the Martian crust are silicon, oxygen, iron, magnesium, aluminum, calcium, and potassium.
These elements are major components of the minerals comprising igneous rocks.
The elements titanium, chromium, manganese, sulfur, phosphorus, sodium, and chlorine are less abundant.

Secondary minerals include hematite, phyllosilicates (clay minerals), goethite, jarosite, iron sulfate minerals, opaline silica, and gypsum.
Opaline silica and iron sulphate minerals form in acidic (low pH) solutions.

Bedrock rocks were found to be sedimentary rocks with a high concentration of sulfur in the form of calcium and magnesium sulfates. Some of the sulfates that may be present in bedrocks are kieserite, sulfate anhydrate, bassanite, hexahydrite, epsomite, and gypsum. Salts, such as halite, bischofite, antarcticite, bloedite, vanthoffite, or glauberite may also be present.

The minerals in the rocks could have originated by acid weathering of basalt. Because the solubility of phosphorus is related to the solubility of uranium, thorium, and rare earth elements, they are all also expected to be enriched in rocks

Geologic Map of Mars

Global mineral distributions on Mars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

https://serc.carleton.edu/research_educ … pping.html

https://www.mars.asu.edu/data/

mars-map-inline1.jpg

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#252 2020-10-27 07:19:27

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re PlotMaster ...

Added: Radio Antenna, cables, connectors Vendor #1/2/3

The MyHacienda topic is potentially useful to planners of the 1,000,000 person city for Mars.

While there ** could ** theoretically be 1,000,000 specializations, in practice my guess is there will be a few thousand, with automation making up a large part of the fabric of practice in support of a high level civilization.

Edit#1: Added:

0473 Human Resources Staffing Agency Engineering Technical Medical Agricultural Vendor #1
0474 Human Resources Staffing Agency Engineering Technical Medical Agricultural Vendor #2
0475 Human Resources Staffing Agency Engineering Technical Medical Agricultural Vendor #3
0476 Hardware Store General needs including made-to-order parts or subsystems Vendor #2
0477 Hardware Store General needs including made-to-order parts or subsystems Vendor #3


(th)

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#253 2020-10-29 09:38:11

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re Farming on Mars ...

The local newspaper included this book review today ... It may be of interest in the context of the community that will come into being on Mars.

On Earth, large corporations have assumed much of the responsibility for supply of food to the population of the United States, and perhaps that may be the case in some other nations.  On Mars, something like that ** could ** occur, human nature being what it is.   Still, an alternative is to design an economy that avoids that pitfall.

Why small farms need a reordering of our society
By Jeff Rowe
The Associated Press
“A Small Farm Future: Making
the Case for a Society Built
Around Local Economies,
Self-Provisioning Agricultural
Diversity and a Shared Earth”
by Chris Smaje (Chelsea
Green)

With the possible exception of
parks, perhaps no use of the land is
viewed more favorably in America
than a small farm. It encompasses
all the values and myths we hold
holy — seemingly pollution-free
stewardship of the land,
green vistas of vibrant
crops and contented
animals munching grass.
If only the realities and
economics of small farm-
ing were so engaging.

The vast scope and
power of corporate
agriculture presents
ferocious competition;
studies show half of small
farmers depend on a sec-
ond job to stay solvent.
Chris Smaje explains in “A Small
Farm Future” how small farms
can become profitable — it merely
will take a near complete
reordering of our society.

Smaje threw his
research net wide for this
book, citing population
growth, climate change,
conflicting economic
theories and outdated
politics in conclud-
ing the labor-intensive,
small-scale agriculture
he advocates can work.

Forget any multi-
tasking when you are
reading this book — you’ll get lost
in equations he creates to show
the flow of commodities and
money and how the world can
change to embrace small farms.
Smaje offers a solution for small
farms on a macro-economic/
political scale; the aspiring small
farmer will not find much here to
help make the venture profitable.

“A Small Farm Future” joins
a barnful of books and articles
in recent years on small farm-
ing, a romance with the land
that has eluded profitability.
As Smaje writes: “It’s clear
that present ways of doing poli-
tics, economics and agriculture
in much of the world are reach-
ing the end of the line.”

(th)

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#254 2020-10-29 20:19:43

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Something to remember is the suns solar flares need an alert system to aid in being able to get things into safe mode since there is not the magnetic field and atmosphere to protect us on the mars forward facing surface areas.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Regarding My Hacienda ... thanks for an interesting (and helpful) suggestion ... until now the list of specializations has NOT included any of the "emergency services that any community needs, let alone an advanced one in a hostile environment."  Please think about the specializations you'd like to see. I'll do the same. A starting list would include the basics: fire and medical. For Mars, we'd add radiation (monitoring, alert, shelter), and atmosphere (monitoring, alert, shelter).   There are probably numerous others that need to be included.

Surely needs more time to think about all the types...

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#255 2020-10-30 18:19:47

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Under the medical care by nurses, doctors, optometrists, dentists ect are supply company manufacturers for things like band aids, ace bandages, gauze, eye wear in glasses or contacts plus the surgery in Lasik and other types, not to mention the many tools of those trades .

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#256 2020-10-30 19:34:49

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #255

Thank you for helpful additions to My Hacienda .... I'd like to invite others who are able to post to the forum to take a moment to think about this part of the overall structure of a successful community, whether on Mars or anywhere else.

At the moment, SpaceNut has suggested a focus on medical care ... I'm willing (and looking forward) to adding a set of specifications to the PlotMaster.

I'd like to keep as much of the elements of this focus together as possible.  The PlotMaster has been growing in a somewhat spontaneous manner. The recent addition of 94 elements of the Periodic Table is an example of how structure can be added to the design, if there is a structure available. 

(th)

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#257 2020-10-31 06:47:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

We will need to have a target priority of elements that either are of high value for export indicator and one for those to be direct use as leverage for the mars community.
We might even require a how to use and mine each as well as transport options to ensure safety for the personnel doing the work.

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#258 2020-11-26 14:32:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I was surprised top not see more in self funding, banking and currency stuff with in this topic and have edited the post for the banking registry with a few items.
Much like the large ship its got to get funding some how along with expertise in engineers to make them a reality.
Second thought is to where Mars Society has property we could begin a Hacienda effort....
Foot holds are established so now its onto settlement or colony, with growth towards city with the design being to move as if we are going to mars with each plot like step.

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#259 2020-12-05 11:39:05

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

It's been a while since My Hacienda took a moment in the daily Active list.

The article at the link below is written by a gent who heads up a local science museum.

It offers a humorous take (based upon known facts) on the challenge of setting up shop on Mars.

https://www.discovery.com/space/want-th … --try-mars

(th)

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#260 2020-12-20 08:06:17

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

In another part of the forum, SpaceNut recently created a topic about Internal Combustion engines on Mars.

This topic (My Hacienda) is set up to identify and to plan for industries of various kinds that are possible or perhaps even likely on Mars.

An industry based upon the (relatively simple) chemistry of CO/O (Carbon Dioxide split into Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen) seems not only possible but inevitable.  It has a lot going for it, if the long term survival of a human settlement is taken into account.  It will be necessary for humans to raise children who will be able and willing to sustain any industry on Mars past the initial burst of enthusiasm to create it.  The example on Earth of the continued appeal of the internal combustion engine over multiple generations is encouraging.  The internal combustion engine and its related technologies seems to interest enough young people in the population of America (as just one example of many Nations) so that it continues to attract the talent and enthusiasm needed to keep it going.  There are entire categories of people who are sufficiently motivated and educated to sustain now-retired technologies of internal combustion engine history, while at the same time there are (mostly younger) people who are sufficiently motivated to learn the leading edge skills needed to push the internal combustion engine to new thresholds of capability. 

In other topics, kbd512 has provided a number of detailed examples of advanced technology in the IC technology arena.  From these posts I am encouraged to think that the IC engine has a way to go on Earth, while the advantages of electric power trains are certainly evident in certain applications.

0478 Available
7800 Last plot for Sagan City 2018

A new series of entries in My Hacienda can begin at 0478 and encompass the full range of activities that could/will arise around the simple CO/O concept.

(th)

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#261 2020-12-20 10:19:01

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

repost

SpaceNut wrote:

2Co + 02 is the output from a moxie unit to save for this desiel style engine as I am not sure about the compression of a gasoline engine with spark to ignite the mix in a chamber

We do have many topics but I am referencing this one Mars Insitu Fuels made from atmosphere, regolith, water

We also could use a fuel cell as well but in either case these have also been suggested for mars rockets specifically for sub orbital hops...

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#262 2020-12-20 10:58:31

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #261 and topic, plus Internal Combustion engine topic

The My Hacienda collection appears to presently contain no entries having to do with production of Carbon Monoxide gas.

My intention is to work up a set of related specializations to support an infrastructure based upon that simple chemistry.

Your post (#261) introduces the question of whether CO and O can be used in a diesel engine, or in a non-diesel spark initiated combustion engine.

In either case, it is (presumably) necessary to design machines suitable for the Mars environment, and this topic is set up to encourage thinking along those lines.  It is one thing to say something is possible ... it is quite another to actually design it, assemble the materials needed to make it, to make it, to operate it, and above all, to maintain it so that it continues in operation for decades.

This topic is set up to allow for the thought process to develop to allow for that sequence to occur for a wide variety of technologies.

(th)

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#263 2020-12-20 11:18:01

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #549

That post, short as it is compared to ones by kbd512, deserves it's own memory tag:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p175106

SearchTerm:Maintenance Automobile on Earth extrapolating to Mars

Your post brings up the issue of lubricant needed for machinery on Mars.

We (humans) take for granted the largess provided by Nature, of lubricants stored for us over eons.  We are busy using up the stores, but in the mean time, enterprising researchers have been trying to work out how to create hydrocarbon chains suitable for manufacture of lubricants.

Hopefully the knowledge of how to make lubricants from CO2 and water on Mars will be available when it is needed.

The internal combustion engine concept you've introduced as a separate topic recently is a massive consumer of high grade lubricants, none of which exist on Mars right now (to the best of my knowledge).  There may (indeed, must) be some in the vehicles placed by humans on Mars, but those don't count!

A category of specialization for My Hacienda is manufacture of lubricants, if it does not already exist in the list of specializations there.

(th)

I am thinkin mars would make synthetic oils and lubricants for use due to mars temperature cycling and dust issues.

edit
https://myengineneeds.com/how-is-synthe … -oil-made/

http://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-synth … l-is-made/

https://www.hunker.com/13420337/how-to- … substitute

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#264 2020-12-20 12:01:44

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #263

Synthetic lubricants should be included in the My Hacienda list of specializations ...

It seems unlikely there will be any "natural" ones, but at this point, it seems safe (to me at least) so say we (humans) simply don't know.

On the ** other ** hand, Titan may be literally swimming in natural hydrocarbons suitable for use as lubricants on Mars, so there should be a nice little trade route between Titan and Mars in coming decades.

If the probe of Titan is still on the drawing boards, adding a lubricants search/recognition capability to the instrument package would seem helpful for the long term.

(th)

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#265 2020-12-20 20:43:57

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

repost

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #549

That post, short as it is compared to ones by kbd512, deserves it's own memory tag:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p175106

SearchTerm:Maintenance Automobile on Earth extrapolating to Mars

Your post brings up the issue of lubricant needed for machinery on Mars.

We (humans) take for granted the largess provided by Nature, of lubricants stored for us over eons.  We are busy using up the stores, but in the mean time, enterprising researchers have been trying to work out how to create hydrocarbon chains suitable for manufacture of lubricants.

Hopefully the knowledge of how to make lubricants from CO2 and water on Mars will be available when it is needed.

The internal combustion engine concept you've introduced as a separate topic recently is a massive consumer of high grade lubricants, none of which exist on Mars right now (to the best of my knowledge).  There may (indeed, must) be some in the vehicles placed by humans on Mars, but those don't count!

A category of specialization for My Hacienda is manufacture of lubricants, if it does not already exist in the list of specializations there.

using leftover plastics can provide the base for lubricants as well as plants that make oils such as corn, peanuts, olives ect...

Plastic into Petrol Produce fuel petrol from plastic waste

another that indicates its ethanol producing petrol

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#266 2021-01-17 09:54:16

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Post 23 registry now contains the Elemental "Collect - isolate - package (storage) - distribute"  into its block section with the
SearchTerm:Carbon Solid form kbd512 post http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p175916
Of course the image contained above in post 251 shows some of the locations to which the elements might be concentrated enough to mine from as we develop Mars.

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#267 2021-01-17 10:52:31

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 5,120

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #266

Thanks for adding that new specialization into the registry!  I think it has significant potential for a viable business for Mars.

There are a few details to be examined.  Burning coal is something humans have experience with << grin >>.  The wrinkle for Mars is the need to supply Oxygen.

The first use that comes to (my) mind is slow combustion to maximize the efficiency of the conversion from solid carbon to CO2 in the furnace.

If Calliban happens to catch this post, I'd welcome your follow up on kbd512's suggestion for energy storage at Mars using solid Carbon.

SpaceNut ... what do you think about opening focus topics?   It seems that Internal Combustion engines is too broad as a topic, for the responses it has achieved.  It seems to me that a Solid Carbon Energy Storage for Mars topic would make sense.  It should be fairly easy to help forum contributors to stay focused, if the topic is that specific.

Here is a snippet from Google:

Synonyms and Antonyms for coal-burning | Synonym.com
www.synonym.com › synonyms › coal-burning
1. coal-burning · 2. coal-black · 3. burning · 4. burning · 5. burning · 6. burning · 7. burning · 8. coal.
People also ask
What are coal fire remains called?

Where do you burn coal?
When coal is used for electricity generation, it is usually pulverized and then burned in a furnace with a boiler. The furnace heat converts boiler water to steam, which is then used to spin turbines which turn generators and create electricity.

It should be noted (working from the snippet) that kbd512's suggestion has a significant advantage over traditional terrestrial coal ... no cinders!

A properly assembled block of carbon made from CO2 in the atmosphere would be free of contaminants, and it would therefore NOT require a cinder removal and disposal process, as is characteristic of all terrestrial coal-burning plants that I know about.

[please forgive this moment of astonishment]

I just realized kbd512's suggestion is applicable on Earth ... if we are going to go to all the trouble of pulling CO2 from the atmosphere on Earth to make "green" hydrocarbons such as methane, why not take the logical step to forget about the hydrogen component and just go straight to carbon in solid form?

The "magic" concept of "green coal" so beloved of the coal mining community would suddenly become a practical option.

(th)

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#268 2021-01-17 19:31:53

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Another of Louis clever funding ideas to bring along to how can we fund going and staying with in what some call gimmicks and others call marketing concepts. Either way we need to raise money for the cause to go and to stay once we go.

louis wrote:

Set up a marketing company called "First on Mars". This will act as a paid consultant to fix up deals with Space X for people who want to be First on Mars whether it's seeing their automobiles driven on the Mars surface,  having their trainers worn by Mars colonists,  staging the first football match, having the first bank branch open etc etc

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#269 2021-01-18 16:43:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,969

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I expect solar flares (or v severe dust storms) would be treated the same way as tornadoes, hurricanes and exceptional frosts in the USA: something you write off over a number of years or a matter for insurance. 


SpaceNut wrote:

Something to remember is the suns solar flares need an alert system to aid in being able to get things into safe mode since there is not the magnetic field and atmosphere to protect us on the mars forward facing surface areas.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Regarding My Hacienda ... thanks for an interesting (and helpful) suggestion ... until now the list of specializations has NOT included any of the "emergency services that any community needs, let alone an advanced one in a hostile environment."  Please think about the specializations you'd like to see. I'll do the same. A starting list would include the basics: fire and medical. For Mars, we'd add radiation (monitoring, alert, shelter), and atmosphere (monitoring, alert, shelter).   There are probably numerous others that need to be included.

Surely needs more time to think about all the types...


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#270 2021-01-18 18:12:21

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,969

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I used to be a little negative about homesteading but I think that if we have established cities in Mars (which can provided a lot of essential support services)  then homesteading can come into its own.   

Firstly, there will be so much free land available.   That means it is much more important what the individual farmer can "bring to the table" .

Secondly, the cost of food production  is going to be high on Mars , and that will create opportunities for homesteaders who know how to take advantage of particular locations, understand the potemtial of particular soils or understand how to cater for niche markets. For instance if you can maybe find the right crate and you cover the surface with a pale material you've sourced locally, you can increase insolation for your homestead farm by 70%. This may enable you to compete against the big agricultural producers based close to the city.

Thirdly,  there will be lots of opportunities for niche homesteader production whether it's ceramics,  cutlery, furniture,  clothing or other items.  3D printing and robotics mean that production can be carried out on a v small scale. The high cost of importation from Earth means the homesteader has a built in price advantage, even at v small production volumes.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#271 2021-02-03 20:58:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,310

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Calliban's floating tube trays concept for food growth with natural light on mars surface while man is underground protected.
my post containing details of a workable design
I do believe that we may have others....
Crop topic post
Plus some algae posts as well contained a version of tube use...

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