Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2024-08-11 17:50:48

I would like to return again to the materials of post #1774, particularly "B": https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 76#p225676
Quote:

A) A conventional method would be close to "As currently advertised".
B) A complementary method would be "Falconization +". (Using Starship like Falcon 9, with added features).
"B" would involve the recovery of the 1st Stage, and the repurposing of the 2nd Stage away from the Earth's surface.
Some form of "B" could involve at sea landing pads, and the conversion of a starship 2nd stage to electric rocket mode, after the engines were removed and brought back to Earth in a type "A" Starship.

I suppose that these could be considered to be a version of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_HLS
Image Quote:

I am interested in proportions internally. Here is one that has flaps which in this post I am not interested in: https://www.humanmars.net/2021/01/cutaw … rship.html
Image Quote: Cutaway+schematic+of+SpaceX+cargo+Starship+interior+by+Tom+Dixon.jpg

As far as I am concerned once you exclude the flaps, and heat shield for a type "B" Starship, I would think it could be a good standard practice to have the remnant cut into two sections. 1) The Locomotive (Tanks and Engines), and 2) the upper part.

There would be a temptation to make Starship as a 3-stage device with this. And that could be an option somewhere down the line. An upper stage which was self-powered could make a more sensible Moon ship, I think.

But for now, I want something for a mission to Phobos or Deimos, so if it would have power, it would probably only be maneuvering thrusters which would also be sufficient for interactions with Phobos and Deimos.

So, then what could the options be for two such "B" type Starships?

I am going to make a drawing so, pause..................

Nothing too dynamic here:

So, in preparation for a trip to Phobos or Deimos, two engine sections and one cabin/cargo sections would be assembled into a GW Johnson stick for artificial gravity.

Both Engines would be refilled, but some options may apply.

Some of the engines would be removed. I also allow for the possibility that one of the engines would be converted to electric drive, probably solar power is mandated unless someone can figure out how to protect the crew from a reactor.

But both engines could be chemical, to keep things simple as well.

I do like the idea of one chemical engine and one electric rocket engine though. Anyway, I do not intend to aerobrake, so either Ballistic Capture is used to get into Mars orbit, or you fire the chemical engine to start your way and then get into a finishing propulsion using the electric rocket.

From what I recall from GW Johnson, such a "Baton" might be able to give a maximum synthetic gravity of about 1 g.

I have not fleshed this out for a specific mission but have vaguely named Phobos. Methods to return to Earth or any plans to land on Mars have not been considered yet.

But this could not only be precursive to a mission to Phobos, but perhaps also to an asteroid.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-11 18:43:16)

Void · 2024-08-11 20:05:39

This could be an amendment to the just prior post.

https://techxplore.com/news/2024-08-sol … farms.html
Quote:

Home
Energy & Green Tech
August 9, 2024
Editors' notes
Solar energy development could reduce need for solar farms
by University of Oxford

And no, I do not know how well this would work in a space environment, but if it would work well enough then as it is said to be light weight, possibly ships surfaces could be covered in it.

So, it might be a matter of typical, that some ships would have at least a small electric thrusting rocket to in part propel them to a destination.

But time will tell.

I am rather interested in hybrid propulsion missions. Perhaps a fast burn at first, chemical or nuclear, and then a finishing effort with electric thrusters. I am hoping that this then opens the windows a bit more per launch date/arrival date. Particularly if Ballistic Capture could be involved.

A pinch more of thrust from electric that may not involve a massive increase in dry mass could alter the reality of space flight, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-11 20:12:18)

Void · 2024-08-12 07:53:17

Returning to prior posts as reference, here is an alternative:

Discussions with Dr. Johnson previously pointed out that an empty shell, has little life support or protection.

But I am arguing that upgrades of life support and protections can come from the materials of a Marian moon. Obviously though the initial "Eggs" have to be built up" in LEO, to be reasonably protective of humans.

So, after expensive more finished versions have been sent to Phobos, perhaps, then after that only shells of 3 & 4 and engines 1 or 2 could be sent to Phobos if that has value. I really think that a use of electric propulsion may be preferred.

So, if you are then doing a type "B" starship, as extended lift capacity is allowed, you do not waste the engine or the fairings, and you assist in the establishment of human/machine process at Phobos or Deimos. It is also possible to recycle the raptors back to Earth using a type "A" starship method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-12 08:01:26)

Void · 2024-08-12 08:30:09

Garbage, you might say!

Well yes, go into a LEO garbage service. Collect waste from other space stations and attempt to reprocess it into materials to increase the protective potentials of the shells from a type "B" Starship launch result.

I would be tempted to bid to consume the ISS, instead of dumping it into the Pacific Ocean. At least parts of it might be recycled into something, perhaps at least some radiation protection. Maybe some fixtures.

And it seems thought is going into the reuse of the 1st stage booster. I have seen a notion of a "Tippy Barge" recovery method.

Rather Chinese-like in thinking. Harmonize with what reality wants to do. The booster wants to tip over into the Ocean, so give it an assistive method to do so gracefully. Keep the Engines away from the salt water but use the upper end of the booster as a float.

Very Clever, I would think.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

SpaceX Starship New Transporting Method Completely Change Everything!
YouTube
TECH MAP
2 hours ago

So, I am guessing that the barge itself, if it had a catch tower, could have pneumatic thrusters which could implement a controlled tipping into the ocean of the top end of the Super Heavy.

Of course, this will need to anticipate possible damage from freezing sea water, and overpressure inside of the booster. I think these would be aspects that could be invented around. Perhaps the Superheavy will need revisions.

Really, super smart.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-12 09:07:09)

Void · 2024-08-12 16:12:04

I am again interested in the relative labor it would take to get useful mass to Phobos, compared to the surface of Mars.

For Mars, I am generally thinking "Mars Direct", and for Phobos, I am thinking perhaps a combination of chemical and electric propulsion, but aerobraking to orbit is not entirely ruled out.

I do not consider the two efforts to be competitive but actually supportive of each other. I do think that solar for Mars would make a whole lot of sense in Martian orbit, and some case for orbital nuclear also could exist. This then could allow metal working in orbit, and products useful to the surface communities.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-12 16:16:18)

Void · 2024-08-13 07:45:06

In the area of wishful thinking:

I am becoming comfortable with a particular idea for the formation of Phobos. This one involves an icy impactor. The result is a lower temperature formation of Phobos as the excess water vapor from the impactor carries away much of the Heat, and so the protects some of the volatiles that might be retained in the moon Phobos. It needs proving, however.

If it is true, then about half of Phobos may be from the impactor, and half from Mars itself.

And that may or may not have been the only major formation event. However, it has been said that Phobos may contain rocks from Mars where later impactors of Mar ejected them to an interception of Phobos. If so, then it is said by others that Phobos may have a geological record of Mars of the past. So, then I say that an installation of an industrial process using the materials of Phobos could make accessible to science the study of the materials of Phobos. The point is utilizing Phobos would not be only for materialism. (I do not frown on materialism, as some have. I much prefer dry socks to wet cold or frozen ones).

OK, here is an article which is about the formation of Martian moons from an icy impactor: https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … ed%20first. Quote:

Solar System
Icy Impactor Might Explain the Formation of Mars’s Moons
By: Javier Barbuzano March 12, 2024 0

Quote:

Another problem is that a rocky impactor would result in a hot debris disk, whose high temperatures would alter or destroy any primitive materials — including basalts.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … e-of-mars/
Quote:

Deimos is one of two natural satellites of Mars (Phobos is the other), and both are in near-circular orbits. Both moons are small and irregularly shaped, and the rare, shadowy glances we’ve had of them in the past seemed to indicate that they are captured asteroids. But while scientists have largely assumed that they have a similar origin, we don’t know that for sure. The composition data previously available were pretty scrappy but could be fit to known “D-type” asteroid mineralogy, so that’s what the community went with. Scientists thought that an alternative scenario, where one or both of the moons were a fragment of the Martian surface freed via an impact, would result in bigger, rounder moons like our own.
In late January and February this year, Hope made a series of maneuvers that slightly changed its orbit so it could get a closer look at Deimos. The preliminary analysis of the spectra points to basaltic rock on the surface. Basalt is formed by volcanism, a phenomenon once present on Mars, but which we wouldn’t expect to see on a D-type asteroid. The presence of basalt could mean Deimos came from Mars’s surface via some sort of impact.
This is not a new idea. Captured asteroids would be unlikely to settle in stable, circular orbits, so scientists have dabbled in alternate origin stories over the years. In 2021, a team led by Amirhossein Bagheri (ETH Zürich, Switzerland) suggested in Nature Astronomy that Phobos and Deimos might have come from a larger moon. It would have formed in a giant impact, like Earth’s Moon, but later broke up and largely dissipated. Only a smattering of debrisremained, reaccreting into Phobos and Deimos.
However, while impact scenarios have been proposed before, Hope’s observations provide the first real evidence for a non-asteroidal origin.

So, this could actually be the best of all possibilities from my point of view.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-13 08:41:55)

Void · 2024-08-16 06:21:40

I am getting more enthusiastic about habitats in atmosphere, where originally, I wanted orbital. I still want both but in atmosphere may really make sense.

I am going to do a betting guess. 10% chance that there is life in the atmosphere of Venus. 90% no life, but when life does not exist, a chemically active planet environment will have life mimicking process. To discover truth on this, will be important for detecting life on Exoplanets.

I am thinking that a ring structure in the atmosphere of Venus may be desirable. While I think that eventually it will be possible to mine the surface of Venus, I think that asteroids in the terrestrial orbits may be of a very good use for building a civilization on Venus.

It could be possible eventually that the bulk of the Hydrogen in the atmosphere could be converted to make water.

The ring platform for the most part could only require a wet floor to grow algas on. And plastic domes above that as floatation devices.

I think it could be possible that the Algae producing Oxygen, then the Oxygen being vented, then using Sulfuric Acid to react against the Algae. I think this would produce more water and reduce the amount of Sulfuric Acid.

But I am also interested in VELO in orbits of Venus. OK, here is a concept:

The coin shaped condenser would have cooling faces North and South, and may try to use capacitive forces to condense gasses to the inner surface.

But it is not proven and tested.

Done

The tow line is to be connected to some kind of propulsive device.

The Skyhook is optional and might have value.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-16 06:53:11)

Void · 2024-08-16 07:49:23

Jeff Bezos indicates that for the 2nd stage they are going after both a cheap to make one time device, and a reusable version. The 1st Stag would be reusable in any case.

I agree with this, and I have previously indicated a type "A"=Reusable and type "B"=One Time Starship. But of course, I think that we are going to want to get away from dumping mass from space into the atmosphere as a disposal process. Rather expended waste should be converted to further use in orbit when possible.

Quote:

Everyday Astronaut video with Jeff Bezos about latest for Blue Origin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsuqSn7ifpU&t=3609s
Quote:
1:12:59
Now playing
Watch later
Add to queue
First Look Inside Blue Origin's New Glenn Factory w/ Jeff Bezos!
504K views
20 hours ago
The structure of how things are done per Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin, being very alien to how SpaceX and others do things, perhaps special things will emerge which would not otherwise be created. So, I welcome this even if it is slow to go.
Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-16 07:54:05)

Void · 2024-08-19 10:14:14

I recently view a video by "The Angry Astronaut" about refilling in orbit. He indicated a notion that Geosynchronous would be a good place for depots, and that much of the materials could come from the Moon. He mentioned Oxygen, and perhaps Hydrogen. Not so much Carbon. But he did not mention Aluminum, which I think that along with Oxygen could be OK for some Deep Space missions.

So, he did then bring the Moon back into the focus for me.

But I have been having a hard look at Venus lately.

I think that a flexible set of notions is better than locking into a rigid pathway. A rigid pathway may allow the Creme Puffs, to periodically reset and cripple space efforts. This is so that they can skim the creme off of the flow of money. For many of them this has become the only purpose of space efforts.

I do not regard SpaceX as a Creme Puff operation, which is probably why the Creme Puffs don't like it.

They do get into some government money, but they are mostly a "Deferred Consumption" operation as far as I can see. That is why they are not a public traded company. If they were then the cutting edge operations would be cut in order to give short term profits.

I believe that Rocket Lab is publicly traded, but I don't consider them to be "Creme Puffs". They are interested in the cutting edge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Life_Finder

I like their Neutron for some stuff, and think it is important to define the potential for Life on Venus. So they are going to send a probe, it is said, and we may hope, to Venus.

I want Venus tested as it is more testable than Mars is to confirm the absence of life. But I do want life found, if it does exist. It would be very important.

But we have to consider the issue of planetary protection as a Creme Puff tool. In reality they most likely want life on Venus to be undefined, as it probably does not exist. This then is a tool so that they can "Creme Puff" money, power, and careers, from diverted space efforts.

If life is found however, then I am all in on investigating it and probably protecting it.

In the case of early determination of a lack of life on Venus, (If So), then greater emphasis on Venus should be considered. At least that is what I think. This would make it harder for the "Creme Puffs" to interfere. But of course planning is not all of implementation. It would be prudent to be very complete in analysis of the potential for life in the clouds of Venus.

But in the case of an initial lack of discovery of life in the clouds of Venus, I think we should consider if it could be sensible to have 1,000,000 people in the clouds and in orbit of Venus. This is a mirror of the SpaceX associated notion of 1,000,000 people on Mars. But before 1,000,000, then lets consider 10,000 people and 10 robots for each person.

This would allow the discovery of how easy the clouds and orbits of Venus might be.

In addition I also favor a effort into near asteroids as complementary to a generalized space effort involving at least Mars, Earth, Luna, and Venus.

It is a long post, so I will end it. I had a lot more but maybe later.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-19 18:18:55)

Void · 2024-08-19 20:03:03

I am attracted to Rocket Labs "Other" way of doing things. Not that I disrespect SpaceX.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Rocket Lab Just Hot Fired Its New Archimedes Engine
YouTube
TheSpaceBucket
21 views
6 hours ago

It occurs to me that this method may overcome the problems of the Kesler Syndrome to some extent, if the 2nd stage would be used to jump up above LEO.

They will probably have a certain type of payload that pays off.

But I do wonder if other rocket companies may mimic them down the line at a larger scale.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-19 20:08:52)

Void · 2024-09-01 13:06:12

This could have importance in some methods, (Involving Plastics), to do Para Terraforming on Earth and perhaps Mars, and maybe other worlds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeaQA0GQqrI
Quote:

Our oceans have learnt how to EAT PLASTIC!
Just Have a Think
578K subscribers

So, this is a good thing that I expected, but of course there could be an eventual challenge of organisms eating the structures that humans and their robots might create. But I will suppose the eventual problem will be possible to manage for profitable utilizations.

If we can create a market for plastics, that creates wealth, then the desire to burn hydrocarbons may be reduced, and it might even occur that it could be more convenient to pull Carbon out of the air to make such plastics.

I have this now:

This could involve lakes, and may reduce the rate of evaporation. The Salton Sea, could still have open shores, but with these you might reduce the evaporation rate to 5% or 10% of what might be normal.

Of course this might be of interest for the Dead Sea, Great Salt Lake, Aral Sea, ect.

The rollers could be linked together to roll synchronously. The interior of the rollers could be productive agriculturally, and also could be used to condense salts or distill water. The interiors could be of various salinities.

It may even be reasonable to create lakes in the Great Basin and other arid areas where not exist now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-01 13:15:57)

Void · 2024-09-12 07:52:43

Isaac Arthur has provided some new entertainment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyNeWloBss
Quote:

The Cities of Mars
Isaac Arthur
790K subscribers
Join

Returning to post #1786:

So, adapted to Mars, sausage shaped bladders floating on a very heavy brine, may have merit.

Very Salty water at a temperature of -2 degrees C, might work for the light blue in the diagram.

A dome might be put over that water filled basin. Ice will occur at times perhaps, but perhaps can be avoided.

Don Juan pond may stay liquid even in winter in Antarctica: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_ … 0a%20small Quote:

With a salinity level of 33.8%, Don Juan Pond is the saltiest of the Antarctic lakes.[1][2] This salinity causes significant freezing-point depression, allowing the pond to remain liquid even at temperatures as low as −50 °C (−58 °F).

So, it might be desired to keep it warmer than that if possible. Say -2 degrees C.

Vapor Pressure Calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
The calculated vapor pressure is then perhaps 5.2256 mbar. So very close to Martian atmospheric pressure on average on the surface.

The Sausage Shaped Bladders floating on this water, could have conditions within them that would be hospitable to some types of life, some maybe growing "Crops". They could probably be sufficiently pressurized for that.

The Bladders might be periodically moved to a long tunnel that could be pressurized.

While the diagram suggests solar panel, it is not mandated that they would be on the bladders in this case.

The Bladders may collect solar heat, and heat pumps may extract the vibrations and send them to a thermal reservoir.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-12 08:07:50)

Void · 2024-09-15 08:00:31

I have stumbled into an interesting process which would involve recreation of two different terrestrial environments.
1) Anaerobic Biological.
2) Aerobic Biological.

The example of Iron Production has helped me to have an emergence of a greater understanding of the benefits of relating these two recreated environments with each other.

Reference from another topic, specifically post #99 of that topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 59#p226559

Reference from another topic, specifically post #1 of that topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 61#p226561

I have greater chances for a level of completion working out of the way of others in this location.

Worlds that this set of methods may be more compatible with would be Earth, Mars, and then many icy worlds of sufficient size, perhaps Ceres being towards the lower size, and Earth the larger size.

Pause..........................

I think I have talked about lakes on Mars before so I will for the moment focus more on the right side of the image, "Low Pressure Agriculture".

This could most likely involve Algae, and Cyanobacteria, but also might be expanded beyond those over time.

The primary idea is to "Get the Mostest for the Leastest", as per effort/gain.

So, we will try to grow productive lifeforms that have extreme adaptations to unusual environments. But could upgrade the environments in a minority of cases to grow other things.

The circles with green in them represent sausage shaped pressurized enclosures of plastic, in trenches in the dirt. The internal pressures could easily be in the area of 50 mbar + or - some value of pressure.

What would be harvested from the devices would be organics and heat. In many cases the heat accumulated during the day would be pulled away from them by heat pumps. The devices may be allowed to freeze at night. The freeze/thaw may be hard on the devices, so perhaps even the water vapor would be removed prior to nighttime, and then moisture added back in the morning.

Small robots would probably harvest the organics.

The heat from the heat pumps would be piped to the Anaerobic levels of the lake. The lake would be hypersaline and would have gradients of salinity which would resist thermal convection.

The organics would be mixed with fine regolith such as dune materials and also distributed to the bottom of the lake. The intent would be to create archaic ocean conditions in the anaerobic waters, which will promote the dissolving of iron into water. We also may hope to promote the "Haystack Effect" of heating from Anaerobic digestion.

https://www.ndsu.edu/agriculture/ag-hub … %20outside.

And so, we are hoping to produce Methane, which may remain dissolved in the water if kept under pressure and not allowed to reach its saturation of solubility. This would resemble a manure digester. As I have mentioned we are also hoping that we can promote conditions where iron will be extracted from the fine regolith by anaerobic microbes.

On Earth existing environments that may resemble this could be bogs, the bottom of the Black Sea, and brine lakes at the bottom of the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep

So, at some point we want to condense the iron out of the water by some method. That could involve biology, but also, we might find a more productive method that does not. In exposing the Anaerobic water to Aerobic water, the precipitation of iron by some method could be facilitated. We will intend to have a cold Oxidized layer of water above the warm Anaerobic layer.

As for the mix of regolith and organics, at some point it could be removed, and mushrooms might be grown in it.

It then would be fairly likely to have become what we call "Soil" and the perchlorates should be long gone.

I have not shown energy systems.

It is possible to include many different types.

It may even be possible to generate power by thermal differentials such as the ones in the lake.

I think that if plenty for now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-15 09:03:07)

Void · 2024-09-16 09:27:00

The prior post has materials that could be compatible with Sand Batteries. Here is a transplant link from elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p226617
Quote:

I thought this would fit nicely in here. They make comparisons to other storage devices such as batteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g7wlLVr4So Quote:
Uncovering SAND-Made Battery with 5 Hidden Features You NEVER HEARD!
TESLA CAR WORLD
167K

From the just prior post, Quote:

I think I have talked about lakes on Mars before so I will for the moment focus more on the right side of the image, "Low Pressure Agriculture".
This could most likely involve Algae, and Cyanobacteria, but also might be expanded beyond those over time.
The primary idea is to "Get the Mostest for the Leastest", as per effort/gain.
So, we will try to grow productive lifeforms that have extreme adaptations to unusual environments. But could upgrade the environments in a minority of cases to grow other things.
The circles with green in them represent sausage shaped pressurized enclosures of plastic, in trenches in the dirt. The internal pressures could easily be in the area of 50 mbar + or - some value of pressure.
What would be harvested from the devices would be organics and heat. In many cases the heat accumulated during the day would be pulled away from them by heat pumps. The devices may be allowed to freeze at night. The freeze/thaw may be hard on the devices, so perhaps even the water vapor would be removed prior to nighttime, and then moisture added back in the morning.
Small robots would probably harvest the organics.

It could be possible to extract excess heat from the right side structures, each day, perhaps to store in a sand battery. It could be that a high temperature heat pump could be employed. My hope is that there will be extreme organisms that can do photosynthesis, that will tolerate overnight very low temperatures.

I know that a Mars simulation allowed lichens to grow in that simulated environment. The main impediment to its survival/growth was UV light, which we would expect to block that for the life forms. A Lichen consists of a fungus and either an Algae or Cyanobacteria, so they can tolerate the repeated low temperatures.

So, I anticipate that this could work. Rather than paying the price of keeping a crop warm at night, you might pull the heat out of it, perhaps near sundown, or even all day long.

While many people here have a phobia for solar on Mars, they only want Nuclear. I don't dispute the value of Nuclear, it is very much wanted.

The cylinders could be relatively low on water, with only a moist surface for the Algae or Cyanobacteria may grow on. Or you could have a water fill, with a bit of salt. In the case of water fill, you would not extract all of the heat accumulation, so this might provide a more tolerable environment for organisms. Each night the water would ice over, and this would slow down the freezing process for the remaining water. If the pressure in the cylinders were 50 mbar, then the fresh ice may be rather transparent as no dirt and very little air bubbles will be incorporated into it. Then in the morning the ice like a window will allow photons in, and the bottom water will start to accumulate heat.

While the electrical grid for this could be supported by Nuclear, it is also true that as that water would warm up, at the same time solar panels should be accumulating electricity to use. So, the thermal solar and electric solar are somewhat simultaneous.

And we are seeking to get the "Mostest with the Leastest". We utilize the solar electricity almost immediately as the thermal energy level collection occurred.

While I previously suggested that this heat could be dumped into the associated lakes lower waters, we also may involve a sand battery.

I do not know if dune materials would be suitable. They are not actually made of sand but of basalt grains. If exposed to an oxidizing environment, they may well decay. But a CAS might involve Martian air of course which may not be very Oxidizing.

I think it may be true that if you release compressed air into the bottom of a sand battery you might heat and expand it quite a lot, and this could turn a turbine. But that is what I presume. Reality is not yet confirming it.

So, sand batteries might fit in to a Marian energy and agriculture system.

The collection of heat by the methods I suggested might work, while allowing for a "Crop" to be grown.

Martian nights may favor the compression or liquification of atmospheric gasses on Mars.

Ending Pending

Some readers may not be familiar with the idea of using an ice-covered lake to assist human existence on Mars, so I will include this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda Quote:

Lake Vanda is a lake in Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica. The lake is 5 km (3.1 mi) long and has a maximum depth of 69 m (226 ft).[2] On its shore, New Zealand maintained Vanda Station from 1968 to 1995. At depths of greater than approximately 50 meters,[3] Lake Vanda is a hypersaline lake with a salinity more than ten times that of seawater[4] and more than the salinity of the Dead Sea. Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[5] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).[6] It is only one of the many saline lakes in the ice-free valleys of the Transantarctic Mountains. The longest river of Antarctica, Onyx River, flows west, inland, into Lake Vanda. There is a meteorological station at the mouth of the river.

A lake constructed to resemble this on Mars would not be exactly the same. There would not be seasonal melt water on the edges. The ice has to be covered with a protective layer, which may or may not allow light through.

But the environments in the lake having improved temperature and pressure characteristics could be useful to humans.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-16 10:57:10)

Void · 2024-09-16 19:35:21

I forgot to mention that in addition to heat and organic matter that could come from an Algae or Cyanobacteria farm also Oxygen might come. But that would be unreliable as per dust storms, and also that such growth might be disrupted by many things. So, maybe this could be used in some industrial applications.

So, a better source of Oxygen for humans could be Nuclear, and water, with the use of the byproduct Hydrogen in the Anaerobic lower waters of the lake.
(See previous posts).

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-16 19:36:02)

Void · 2024-09-27 12:14:37

I would like to merge two tributary topics into this post. I see a possible method to involve several worlds in a materials transfer plan that may increase the "Habitability" of many locations.

1) https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p226621
"Index» Life support systems» Radiators in Space in some cases for Data Centers"

2) https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p226800
"Index» Terraformation» Venus"

Carbon and Nitrogen are two substances we might like to be able to move from Venus to Mars, and even also to Earth orbits and the Moon.

My focus in this post is on the Carbon.

The atmospheric pressure of Venus being ~92 bar, and the gravity ~90% that of Earth, I am just going to fudge a number and suppose that Venus has 100 times the weight of atmosphere as Earth. I know some people are obsessed by precision, but in order to get a rough feel for something sometimes an obsession for precision gets in the way.

Of that atmosphere I think ~3% is Nitrogen, and the rest is primarily CO2.

OK, we can afford to tighten that up a bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Quote:

The atmosphere of Venus is the very dense layer of gasses surrounding the planet Venus. Venus's atmosphere is composed of 96.5% carbon dioxide and 3.5% nitrogen, with other chemical

For the ease of math, perhaps fuzzy, if we claim that Venus has the equivalent mass of atmosphere of 100 bars on Earth, then we can say that ~96.5 % of that is CO2.

Another crude calculation could be done if we presume that Oxygen and Carbon are about the same weight. If that were the case then we could say that there are ~32.17 bars of Carbon., in the atmosphere of Venus.

If the Carbon were water vapor on Earth and it were condensed to a liquid that would be a layer of Liquid ~32 * ~32 =
~1,024 feet of water.

The specific gravity of Carbon is ~2.26 that of water. So, (Getting reckless), 1,024/2.26 = ~453.1 feet of Carbon as a layer on Venus. (Very roughly).

So, about 138.1 Meters of Carbon on the surface of Venus.

As things can be constructed in space out of Carbon and the Oxygen released from CO2 can be a propellant in a Mass Driver propulsion system, it would be very good if CO2 could be harvested to orbit from the Atmosphere of Venus.

If anyone wants to correct any mistake I have made, that will be fine. If you want to do the calculations more precisely, then that is also fine, although it may not be an especially important number at this time.

Pause.............

It appears that Venus levitates Oxygen with a high electric force. It is possible that this could be an impediment to getting other gasses from orbit. That needs discovery. CO2 and Nitrogen are the two we would prefer to get. If the notions for a collector cannot go low enough in the atmosphere and maintain orbit, then it is possible that a skyhook method may be added to the notions. Perhaps that would work.

Another resource we would want in orbit of Venus might be from terrestrial crossing asteroids, some which may be dark comets. (Not the Malware). https://www.space.com/earth-water-dark- … 20suggests. Quote:

Taylor's team's calculations and modeling suggests that up to 60% of the near-Earth object population could be dark comets. Even the asteroid Bennu, recently visited by NASA's OSIRIS-REx mission, displayed some subtle outgassing activity when seen up close, implying that asteroids that outgas at levels too minor to be seen from Earth could be common.

(But the % could be much less than that).

Still, if you could construct air braking devices from these objects you might then air brake them into an orbit of Venus. here again an Oxygen Mass Driver might be useful to set them on an intercept of Venus.

Pause...............

So, then the orbital environment of Venus would have access to Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, and rocky materials and also some water perhaps from dark comets, and also perhaps from the materials of dry rocks that have had solar wind embedded into their regolith.

Methods of propulsion around Venus could involve Oxygen Mass Driver propulsion and Solar Wind Propulsion, and Photon Propulsion methods, and also you could have the burning of Carbon or CO in Oxygen as a chemical propulsion.

If you could build Solar Photon Sail in significant part with Carbon, you could deliver that Carbon to desired places. Venus could likely be a good place to launch such craft due to the sun's intensity at Venus.

While these may not have high acceleration, the craft is the payload in large part. And time and patience may make it worth the trouble. Places to deliver to could be Earth orbits, Moon Orbits, and Mars Orbits. But also you could crash these into the atmosphere of Mars as a terraform method to increase atmospheric pressure, and it may be that some Carbon could be retained if crashed into the shaded craters of the Moon.

So, we can enhance four worlds and some NEO's with this process, by mining the atmosphere of Venus from orbit, I hope.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-27 13:03:40)

Void · 2024-09-28 06:44:02

Marcus House mentioned this in a video: https://www.longshotspace.com/
Quote:

Reinventing space launch
We're building the worlds largest hypersonic accelerator to supply the orbital economy and provide responsive hypersonics testing

This is his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVcEnJbHjp4
Quote:

Could Starship Fly Without This? And SpaceX's Incredible Recovery!

Marcus House
542K subscribers

(Longshot is mentioned late in the video at about 16.44 to 18.46 in video play time).

But imagine how good this might be on Mars: https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/25/longs … he-desert/ Quote:

Longshot Space closes over $5M in new funding to build space gun in the desert
Aria Alamalhodaei
9:16 AM PDT • September 25, 2024

The point is with a lower gravity and much thinner atmosphere this device might work well on top of high mountains on Mars.

It is not impossible that it could work in other places such as orbital Venus.

I will intend to keep an eye on this. I think it can fit very well in concepts involving multi world activities such as I have been posting here.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-28 07:07:53)

Void · 2025-02-07 09:46:52

This is a transplant from: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 46#p229646

It was post #3 of that topic, but is here now, per (th) desires to not have it there.

I might request a revision of topic title to say something like Salt and Water resources on Mars and other worlds.
In understanding Mars, we may find that Vesta the almost Dwarf Planet which is terrestrial in nature may have similar traits.
For Mars, now, my expectations are that the vast amount of salts are in the regolith and likely buried under the sediments probably at some depth. But also the water that has been discovered to be in deep cracks up to 12 km down, will also have some of the salt.
https://oilonmars.blogspot.com/2012/09/ … ithin.html
Image Quote:
The "Oil Spill" is said by the science community to be a brine spill. Perhaps because the don't want to risk being wrong.
I don't have a dog in that fight. Brine or oil is all good for me.
A thing I am interested per Mars and Vesta, is the large amount of water deep down on Mars. Could Vesta have the same?
Reasons I think Mars has it could be not enough heat to push the water out???
The rock cooled and the cracks expanded???
Without plate tectonics, the water does not get squeezed out???
Earth has large amounts of water in it's mantle, I believe in ringwoodite. I don't know if Mars does.
The story of Vesta is that it got a whole lot of Aluminum-26 early-on and was roasted and supposedly expelled all of it's water. But it turns out that there is evidence of temporary streams on Vesta. https://www.space.com/28352-huge-astero … flows.html Quote:
Surprise! Water Once Flowed on Huge Asteroid Vesta
News
By Mike Wall published January 27, 2015
I am interested in the value of Vesta and hope to try to see if Mars could be a model for it's nature.
Vesta was volcanic, so it is possible that ores like copper could have developed from that. It is a stony object though. But it seems to have significant deposits of Carbonaceous Materials on it from asteroid dust. Carbon with a pinch of Nitrogen, along with water would go a long way towards making Vesta habitable by humans.
https://www.universetoday.com/99273/anc … -material/
Quote:
Ancient Impacts Stained Vesta with Carbon-Rich Material
So, Vesta may have a chemistry which may resemble Mars, as per technology that might be employed.
It may be that after all the water that was on Vesta originally all boiled off, and so then the water evidence seen by our probe would be from later deposited materials.
But Vesta did not have plate tectonics, and as it cooled the crust may have opened cracks that water could have flowed into, like possibly happened for Mars. That is a hope, not a fact.
But a thing I am interested in is Uranium Salts dissolved into water, for both Mars and Vesta, and other places.
Recently I have read that even if you remove the Uranium Salt from sea water, it will restore itself with Uranium from rocks in contact with water. So, technically it is a renewable resource.
So, to get utilization of brines may be of value on many worlds.
For one thing our Dr. Zubrin invented a Nuclear Saltwater Rocket Propulsion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_salt-water_rocket
Here on Earth, there is work on extracting Uranium from seawater, but I don't believe it is economically competitive yet.
Here is an article about it: https://www.acs.org/pressroom/presspacs … ar%20power.
Quote:
Yet, the Nuclear Energy Agency estimates that 4.5 billion tons of uranium are floating around in our oceans as dissolved uranyl ions. This reserve is over 1,000 times more than what’s on land. Extracting these ions has proven to be challenging, though, as the materials for doing so don’t have enough surface area to trap ions effectively. So, Rui Zhao, Guangshan Zhu and colleagues wanted to develop an electrode material with lots of microscopic nooks and crannies that could be used in the electrochemical capture of uranium ions from seawater.
For reasons of space propulsion and for energy, of course solving this would be useful, particularly it the outer regions of the solar system were to be settled by humans and robots.
Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-07 09:48:57)

Void · 2025-02-07 12:22:04

Continuing with the materials of the previous post. I also recall recent reading materials.

It appears the what is inside of the orbit of Jupiter has a different history than what is outside the orbit of Jupiter.

But over time some icy objects from the outer solar system have entered the Asteroid Belt. Ceres is the biggest example it seems.

So, now the terrestrials are Mercury, Venus, Earth, Maybe the Moon, Mars, and Vesta. There is a lot we don't know that we might like to know.

We have two ocean worlds of different types. Earth of course has surface oceans, and Mars did, apparently but now has an underground ocean.

Venus may or may not have ever had oceans. Its volcanism seems relatively dry, so it does not seem likely that it has much internal water.

This leaves us Mercury, Vesta, and the Moon where we could look for one. None of these currently have surface oceans.

The Moon may be the least likely but the Moon is the most reachable to test for it. I know that we had seismometer data, but was it capable of detecting such an ocean? Perhaps not good enough.

The Moon has been supposed to have had an atmosphere at least once, and there is some reason to think that deeper rocks have more water. So, I don't entirely dismiss the possibility. Vesta would be hard to test, as it probably does not rumble very much anymore. Mercury is very hard to even orbit let alone land on.

But looking at Mars now, I am beginning to think that that underground ocean may be a major resource. I will wonder about the formation of Natural Hydrogen in it. To get that it would not necessarily be needed to drill all the way down.

So, could there have been Hydrogen Eruptions on occasion where the icy permafrost might be breached and allow Hydrogen out of the underground sea?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ngNewsSerp
Quote:

Th red planet's hot again, cold again history: Explaining persistent hydrogen in Mars' atmosphere
Story by Anne J. Manning • 1w • 3 min read

The size of the water reservoir of cracks, maybe has increased over time as the planet cooled. More and more of the water going underground, and I suppose some drifting off into space.

Where it is not considered very practical to access that deep water, the Hydrogen might pool under permafrost and rock formations. And that may be accessible. There might even be leaks of Hydrogen now. So, that would be very valuable to a Mars Settlement.

I have been interested in Uranium in sea water. The stuff way down there is probably not practical to get.

But if the seas of Mars were revived in some way, then it may be possible to get Uranium that way.

But there may be a problem. If you melted Mars, would the surface water go underground?

So, it may be that any water basins created need to have a permafrost bottom to prevent that.

To maintain the existing permafrost, then an "Ocean" would need to be an interconnected patchwork of lakes and land that is subject to freezing temperatures. Freezing is not hard to get on Mars.

The two areas where this could be possible might be the North Hemisphere and Hallas Basins.
https://www.universetoday.com/tag/oceans-on-mars/
Image Quote:

Hellas might be filled by melting the southern ice cap and by the way generating a lot of hydroelectricity.
The North of course might be developed by melting the North Ice Cap.

Mars being cold, it would be possible, I think to make dikes from permafrost: https://trid.trb.org/view/281370
Quote:

EMBANKMENT DAMS ON PERMAFROST. DESIGN AND PERFORMANCE SUMMARY, BIBLIOGRAPHY AND AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

So, if the planet were modified in this manner, a lot of earth moving would be required. But Robots.....could likely be used for that.

So, you might have lakes with dams to impound them, and you might have polders made inside of these bodies of water, to make sure that the permafrost under the lakes would remain frozen.

If we presume that the atmosphere can be inflated to 2.5 times what it is now, then that might put about 2.5 * 8 mbar on the surface of much of the low places. So, 20 mbar.

This would warm Mars a little, perhaps enough that there could be proper snow storms, and temporary melt water streams in places.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, maybe a vapor pressure of 17.5 C or 64 F degrees?

I would expect all lakes and canals to be roofed over. Either transparently or with Opaque Structure. This in part would inhibit evaporation.

To make the liquid water needed, I would see the two ice caps hollowed out like Swiss Cheese.

Tunnels could be carved with lasers as one option, with water running downhill to a collection point.

Robots could inhabit these places, but it would likely be quite possible to have some warm buildings inside of these tunnels and vaults.

So, here is a notion:

The tunnel system under the rock, connecting the vaults could be heated to a reasonable degree, without damaging the ice cap, I think.

The vaults themselves could be lined with structural materials of Stone and Metals for instance. And you could put skyscrapers in them that would be heated. You could use heat pumps to pull heat out of the vaults and push the heat into the skyscraper buildings.

Of course then we need power sources. I imagine some sort of solar and some sort of nuclear.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-07 13:34:40)

Void · 2025-02-08 11:33:27

The ideas in the previous post would be for a very developed Mars.

Early communities, however, will likely be at lower latitudes.
There appear to be some large masses of ice near the Martian Equator: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecarte … cientists/ Quote: 960x0.jpg?format=jpg&width=1440

That is a big one to eventually tap, so it will not be necessary for some time to transport masses of water from the poles to the near equator regions. One possible way to tap it would be to inject heat somehow to promote a sort of artesian spring to feed lakes. That might be done in parts of it but not necessarily all of it.

Easier low latitude ice exists in Candor Chaos, it seems: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/
https://www.sci.news/space/valles-marin … 10378.html
The hydrogen source appears to be shallow to the surface and as large as the country of the Netherlands.
So, that would be tempting to have a robotic survey have a look at.

So, then "Red Water" is a plan to do some relatively small scale tapping of water from ice bodies on Mars: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1 … Code=space
The value of it is it has be used on polar ice caps on the Earth. It probably makes sense to start humble and then expand from there.

Mars has many ice slabs in the Mid Latitudes: https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid Quote:

Vast, Thick Ice Sheets Have Been Found Buried All Over Mars
Space
11 January 2018
ByBen Guarino, Washington Post

Quote:

The slope rises as high as London's Big Ben tower. Beneath its ruddy layer of dirt is a sheet of ice 300 feet (90 metres) thick that gives the landscape a blue-black hue. If such a scene sounds otherworldly, it is. To visit it, you'll have to travel to Mars.

Quote:

Planetary scientists located eight of these geological features, called scarps, on the Red Planet. An analysis of the scarps revealed that thick ice hides just below the surface.

Image Quote:

From the just previous post:

So, here is a notion:

This sort of thing I proposed for the ice caps could be scaled down to make an undergroud/underice network in these ice slabs.

This is an older article about such an ice slab: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html Quote:

A giant slab of ice as big as California and Texas combined lurks just beneath the surface of Mars between its equator and north pole, researchers say.

To convey the latitude that this ice slab would be at:

To look at ice hidden beneath the Martian surface, Bramson and her colleagues focused on strange craters in a region called Arcadia Planitia. This area lies in the mid-latitudes of Mars, analogous to Earthly latitudes falling between the U.S.-Canadian border and Kansas.

So, even in the winters there would exist the possibility for solar energy, provided you did not have a serious dust storm. While I am suggesting a subsurface network, on the surface could be greenhouses of various sorts and solar panels, or solar heat engines.

Continuing water needs could be satisfied by continually extracting more ice by expanding the underground network.

By the time all of the ice slabs were saturated with underground structure, you could have established a water cycle where snow and ice from the poles would be melted, and conveyed towards lower latitudes with canals.

Before that one project I have an interest in is Korolev Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)

Image Quote Attribution:

By ESA/DLR/FU Berlin - https://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Image … lev_crater, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=75210393

I am presuming that by the time action was taken to create artificial rivers here, the air pressure would have been elevated just a bit by terraforming. But even if not it may be possible to make small rivers with an ice cover to flow here.

So the solar power on the south facing crater rim on the north, may have mirrors of heliostats, microwave transmitters and lasers to project energy to the Ice Bluffs.

And so a body of water could be created with ice covering for the most part. Microwaves can penetrate ice, and transparent ice can allow some visible light in. Lasers could be tuned to allow the penetration of energy into the body of water by various means. And you might have receivers that would be mounted on the ice of the bluffs and the ice of the lake, which would help to create a body of water.

By adding regolith into the lake, you may inject salts, and also stabilize to some degree the icy lake bottom.

From the salts it is possible that industrial level extractions could occur like for Lithium, Uranium, and other things.

Due to the high latitude less, activity would occur in the winters.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-08 12:50:20)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1776 2024-08-11 17:50:48

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1777 2024-08-11 20:05:39

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1778 2024-08-12 07:53:17

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1779 2024-08-12 08:30:09

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1780 2024-08-12 16:12:04

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1781 2024-08-13 07:45:06

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1782 2024-08-16 06:21:40

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1783 2024-08-16 07:49:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1784 2024-08-19 10:14:14

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1785 2024-08-19 20:03:03

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1786 2024-09-01 13:06:12

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1787 2024-09-12 07:52:43

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1788 2024-09-15 08:00:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1789 2024-09-16 09:27:00

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1790 2024-09-16 19:35:21

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1791 2024-09-27 12:14:37

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1792 2024-09-28 06:44:02

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1793 2025-02-07 09:46:52

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1794 2025-02-07 12:22:04

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1795 2025-02-08 11:33:27

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Board footer