Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban · 2022-12-31 19:21:35

In a classic O'Neill cylinder design, the external radiation shield did not rotate. The pressure vessel of the space station rotated within it. The radiation shield was like a static sleeve of rock, metal ore processing waste, or water ice. So it didn't need to withstand any of the tensile forces induced by rotation. That would have made it easier to design and build.

However, the O'Neill design failed to consider the effect of uneven mass distribution within the cylinder. The weak gravitational field of the cylinder would be lumpy, due to the presence of buildings and changes in internal landscape. Over time, as the cylinder rotates within the external shield, the uneven gravitational field would have dragged upon the shield, causing it to rotate. Unless the shield is designed to withstand centrifugal forces from rotation, or some mechanism is in place to dampen the effect, it will eventually fly apart. One such mechanism would be to mount several cylinders upon a common coupling such as the ring previously discussed. The cylinders would rotate on barings, with shields fixed to the ring. The rotation of individual cylinders can be arranged such that they largely cancel each other. Any remaining net forces couod be nullified by tethering the ring to an asteroid.

Removing waste heat is an additional problem. We have the options of either producing a rotating radiator pertruding outside of the shield, or using some convective medium to remove heat. The second is only practical for a colony in direct contact with a cold body, like a moon, asteroid or KBO. The thermal mass of such a body allows the removal of heat by dumping it into the body and using it to melt ice. This allows far more structurally efficient designs, including cylinders with multiple internal decks that make good use of internal volume. The melted volume within the icy body becomes potentially useful as well, providing an environment suitable for aquaculture and food production.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-31 19:39:07)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-31 19:42:27

For Calliban re #726

Thank you for this detail of the design of the O'Neill cylinder habitat! The concept of gravitational drag on the shielding cylinder is new to me, so I appreciate your explaining the problem and offering possible solutions.

By deduction, this drag would also slow down the habitat cylinder, so some additional energy would need to be fed into that system.

***
Thanks to Void for providing a venue for returning the O'Neill concept to visibility.

(th)

Void · 2022-12-31 19:45:39

It seems to be a good conversation. Thanks, Calliban and (th).

I think there could be an ideal congregation of elements, so that such drifting takes longer to accumulate.

If a congregation is in orbit of a Dwarf Planet, perhaps tethers hanging down can in part be used for stability of orientation. It is my understanding that "Leads" or "Lines" like that tend to orient as up and down, with down pointed to the center of mass of the object being orbited.

Perhaps electric propulsion would also be suitable to help.

I have been thinking about imbalances in the drum of a washing machine, as a concern, but I know that others have addressed it.

Additional to those methods, it could also be that electromagnetic repulsion could help to compensate for that, but then the magnetism has to be throttled for each spin of the drum. Of course, pumping water around in the drum could help as well. Ponds might be 5 feet deep or 10 feet deep and adjustable automatically as another method.

And the bearings at the end could also be rather stout. But I am sure that balance is desired.

The Helion fusion reactor is actually two opposing mass drivers that shoot out plasma. I think I have the notion that a space drive method was the stimulus for the notion.

Dealing with Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune, I have a notion that tethers that touch the upper atmosphere, can travel faster than the rate of spin of a planet, but in having contact with the molecules of those atmospheres. An electrodynamic tether may be able to lift up those molecules by an ion flow up the tethers.

I think that this would yield Hydrogen, Helium, Deuterium, and Helium 3.

I think that there would be relatively equal amounts of Helium 3. So, if the station in orbit had Helion reactors, methods of propulsion could expel Hydrogen and Helium to maintain orbit while lifting gases from the atmosphere. Electric propulsion could use Helium, I think.
Thermal propulsion of very high temperatures could use Hydrogen, and possibly a Helion Plasma Mass Driver might be used.

So, the energy in the atmospheres of Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune could power the machines to harvest Deuterium and Helium 3 from there atmospheres.

Two problems to solve are the strength of the tethers, which perhaps may be in reach in a while. The other one is if you get molecules to flow up the outside of the tether using electric power, can you then capture and concentrate into tanks, the materials, to sell to the rest of the solar system?

If this becomes possible, then every Mini-Neptune in the Galaxy would be a power supply. Some may be Rogue worlds.

If Planet 9 did exist, it may be such.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-31 20:14:01)

Void · 2023-01-01 08:07:41

Ran into an older Isaac Arthur video.

Query: "Habitable Planets 4: Life on Rogue Planets"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Habita … 227d4a4aae

The video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … &FORM=VIRE

He suggests other materials about Dwarf Planets: "Isaac Arthur, Dwarf Planets"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Isaac+Art … dbf1b89be9

Well he seems to have a lot of related videos: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … ORM=HDRSC3

This could relate to the population and nature of Rogue Planets: https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang … e-planets/ Quote:

We were wrong: all stars don’t have planets, after all
Unless you have a critical mass of heavy elements when your star first forms, planets, including rocky ones, are practically impossible.

So, the more heavy elements, perhaps the more larger planets? It would be best to increase accuracy of estimates. We know not a whole lot of certainty about rogues.

Speculation from me would be that perhaps 2nd generation stars with less "Metals", might have made some Dwarf Planets. Sometimes when stars go white dwarf new plants are formed. So maybe even old stars would have made some objects.

I believe that red dwarfs do not tend to make gas giants.

Anyway, it may be that the population of Dwarf Planets may be less than the higher estimate. Very likely.

In the video Isaac Arthur suggests that Rogues may be "Light Weeks" away from each other, which is greater spacing than for the planets in our solar system. He thinks of 100,000 Rogues per star, and then many more asteroids for each Rogue. But this is likely the high end of estimates.

Here is a video he suggests: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=In … &FORM=VIRE

I am listening to that while I continue with this post.

I am thinking about old stars that had much less metals and if they released very small planets of sizes, we have a lack of ability to detect.

The released Dwarfs, if they existed, being old, would have little radioactivity in their cores anymore. But they also may have picked up more materials as the white dwarf stage expelled about 1/2 of the stars mass? Lighter elements at best. As a white dwarf loses mass, it may release some of its planets to the void.

But even these Dwarfs might collect some ices and Hydrogen and Helium over time from the void. But I don't know how well small planets can accumulate it. The low end for Steppenwolf Planets is said to be slightly smaller than Mars.

So, these might have cold cores and be small.

This might be an alternate source of Rogues for newer stars with gas giant planets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_migration
I am going with the notion that a Hot Jupiter might cast out a lot of smaller planets during its migration. But I don't know that.

These might have hotter cores as they would be likely to be younger and from stars with lots of "Metals".

But I am sort of mentally wimpy, to be working with such materials. I recognize that.

So, anyway, even a small planet with a cold core would be greatly valuable, if it had any kind of atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium, and it could be accessed by space travel.

I guess you might use magnetics to collect interstellar gas, Something like the Bussard Ram Jet might be thought about.

But a small planet with accessible "Metals", and an atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium, might be a "Machine" which would pull in new Hydrogen and Helium over long periods of time.

So, again, I am thinking that rogues may be much more valuable than star systems.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 08:54:40)

Void · 2023-01-01 11:58:58

Well, this seems timely: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ory=foryou

"saturn-s-moon-titan-captured-by-the-james-webb-space-telescope"

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sa … HoverTitle
Copywrite concerns so I will not violate that.

If Helion works, Titan has to be a big draw. Titan and the Saturn subsystem of course.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 12:09:06)

Void · 2023-01-01 12:17:07

This is fun, George Church works on Life Extension, and the resurrection of a Mammoth/Elephant clone, sort of thing.

Now this fun thing. Possibly it could work for Steppenwolf Planets. One might hope it could transmit with radio though. And that if it found life it would terminate itself after an investigation, if it was discovered it was incompatible with the life discovered.

https://www.space.com/interstellar-prob … ther-stars

However, if no life found but life possible then to release something that would make the world more useful, whatever that might be.

Done.

Void · 2023-01-01 13:29:51

Back to Earth, (th) struck gold, I think: Asked by: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 25#p204625

And my reply: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 29#p204629 Quote;

OK, this looks really good: https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/are … alt-water/
Quote:
Asked by: Sarah Tawton, Liverpool
Most plants would be killed by salt water irrigation, but there are a few that would thrive. One, which has the potential to become a cash crop, is the pink-flowering seashore mallow (Kosteletzkya virginica), which grows wild in the coastal marshlands of the southeastern United States. Researchers from the University of Delaware are calling it “the saltwater soybean”, because its seeds contain oils that are similar in composition and quantity to those produced by soybean plants.
ADVERTISEMENT
Researchers in China have now introduced it to the heavy saline soils of Jiangsu Province, where the area of saline mudflats has been increasing year by year. They believe it has the potential to improve the soil, as well as to form a basis for the development of ecologically sound saline agriculture. Another plant with similar potential is the dwarf glasswort (Salicornia bigelovii), which has been evaluated for growth with seawater irrigation in a harsh desert environment – and with great success, producing at least as much nutritious edible oil as conventional soybean and sunflower crops.

Quote:

One, which has the potential to become a cash crop, is the pink-flowering seashore mallow (Kosteletzkya virginica), which grows wild in the coastal marshlands of the southeastern United States. Researchers from the University of Delaware are calling it “the saltwater soybean”, because its seeds contain oils that are similar in composition and quantity to those produced by soybean plants.

https://www.gardenia.net/plant/kosteletzkya-virginica

Quote:

Another plant with similar potential is the dwarf glasswort (Salicornia bigelovii), which has been evaluated for growth with seawater irrigation in a harsh desert environment – and with great success, producing at least as much nutritious edible oil as conventional soybean and sunflower crops

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicorni … 0saltwater.

I kind of ripped this off from (th) and Spacenut. I was not looking for the plant oils. But I guess that is a good accident from them.

I am still thinking of vertical solar panels and robots to manage the crops, and picking up poo, to convert into fuels, but I guess that is not necessarily incompatible with plant oils.

So, as (th) said, lots of land for it.

Where cold water oceans promote desert, the shoreline irrigation might lead to rains inland. This might be particularly true for the Pacific oceans of the Americas, both north and south.

Oh well

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 14:29:27)

Void · 2023-01-01 15:16:33

Back to Mars, it would seem: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p204624
Quote:

Yes, the Oxygen is then needed for the subsequent oxidation process to release the energy to a purpose.
But for Mars can Perchlorate be a substitute that is storable? It might be collected from the environment or created.
As for the vegetation, it would produce an Oxygen stream for use, which except for dust storms will be predictable as so could be bonded to industrial and residential needs.
For Mars, I am thinking vertical solar panels with a transparency over them. A very cold-water pool under them. Antarctic cold. The "Tent might have slight pressurization. Probably only microbial crops could be grown.
As for evaporation, simply compress the moist air inside the "Tent" to get fresh water. The dump your non poo waste into the pool.
Antarctic water is typically at near or below freezing with salts in it. The pond could have transparent "Sea" ice over it most of the time. The salt allows brine channels which microbes can grow in. To harvest, melt the ice temporarily and somehow collect the organic matter.
https://www.nwf.org/Home/Magazines/Nati … -Ice-Algae
They mention a Fat in the algae. That might be convenient, so that it might be rendered out of the algae at a lower temperature or by another process perhaps. Quote:
Unlike most plants, algae do not have flowers, stems, roots, leaves or vascular tissue— but they do have chlorophyll, which allows them to absorb light for photosynthesis. In polar seas, algae can be pelagic (blooming in open waters), benthic (living on the sea floor) or sympagic (blooming in or on ice). Sympagic sea-ice algae pack more fats and bloom several weeks earlier than their cousins, but their relative importance to the food web has been a mystery until recently.
A fat called IP25, produced only by sympagic ice algae, is yielding important clues. Scientists have long studied IP25 to detect ancient algal blooms in ocean sediment cores. But a few years ago, scientists began studying its presence in animals. In 2016, biochemist Thomas Brown of the Scottish Association for Marine Science became the first to spot IP25 at the top of the food chain. After analyzing the tissues of 55 polar bears, he showed that an average of 86 percent of the bears’ nutrition came from a food chain that originated with ice algae—a breakthrough for polar ecologists.
A question does exist, as to how much dissolved gasses the algae need. If you have a fairly thick but rather transparent ice, this may allow the inclusion of more dissolved gasses. I think we discovered in the past that to some degree the ice gives U.V. protection.
As for the transparent tent, it is good to not collect too much Oxygen in it, as under U.V. it may react with the film to cloud and damage it.
SeaDragon gave us that.
So, we could do some of this on Mars as well, I think. We do need more discovery about that though.
Done.

I feel that this one is extremely important. I am wondering if with genetic engineering eventually this algae could be "Evolved" to be like garden plants and trees I suppose the trunks of the trees would grow sideways under the ice. Nature would never promote it, but underwater celulose?

But just as is, is supreme, I feel.

I wonder if something like that evolved during the Snowball Earth episodes.

So, Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes again: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/M … %20Metazoa.

Quote:

DOI:10.2307/1308639Corpus ID: 85302578
Modern Stromatolites in Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes
B. Parker, G. Simmons, +2 authors K. G. Seaburg
Published 1 October 1981
Environmental Science
BioScience
We report here the discovery of the first modern (Holocene) bluegreen algal stromatolites from Antarctica. Several types occur within these permanently ice-covered, dimly lit, nonturbulent, seasonally glacier-fed lakes, where the habitats vary chemically from fresh-to-saline and anoxic to oxygen-supersaturated. The dominant bluegreen alga and principal stromatolite builder in all types is the oscillatoriaceous species, Phormidium frigidum, which can grow under the wide range of microhabitat conditions occurring in these Antarctic lakes and in the absence of competitive exclusion by eukaryotes, or significant browsing or burrowing by Metazoa. Precipitation of calcite and binding or trapping of sediments give the bluegreen algal mats internal laminae, preserving them as stromatolites. We suggest these frigid Antarctic lake stromatolites may be analogs of those that once inhabited deepwater Precambrian ecosystems. (Accepted for publication 22 May 1981)

No images unfortunately.

There is this: https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/sc … plications

And then there is the red algae in the deep seas. From post #699: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 11#p204311

But the stuff that anchors to ice is the most interesting, I feel, as it might be compatible with a thermal salt pond below it.

A mockup of Lake Vanda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[4] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).

So, if you had underground caves under the lake, you would not need to worry much about heating your caves. And the heat can persist through an Antarctic winter, so I anticipate that it would persist through a global dust storm.

You could, of course use heat pumps to extract or dump heat into the lake at a good efficiency.

More likely, if you had industrial processes down in your caves, you would be dumping heat into the lake and using it as a radiator.

If you had energy from the Helion Fusion reactor method, presuming it works out, then, unlike the Antarctic lake Vanda, the lower warm water could be Oxygenated, and lighted for tropical plants, but they would need to be very brine adapted. For now, probably only simple Algae or Cyanobacteria would be available until genetic engineering expanded the life forms. So, the upper cold less salty water might run on sunlight and the lower warm very salty water might run on artificial lights.

There might be a maybe in this article: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 0351704409

"Lake Bardawil"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bardawil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bitter_Lake

It is very likely that this would not be salt tolerant enough, but it is something to start with: https://jgi.doe.gov/seagrass-genome-seq … tolerance/

This one is a cold water sea grass, so interesting: Picture Quote: 750-eelgrass_Christoffer-Bostrom_nicegrass2-225x300.jpg

Here are some more articles on sea grass:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- … 180970686/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- … 180970686/

Grain from seagrass? Perhaps: https://foodtank.com/news/2021/10/spani … ingredient.

Weird: (I am not sure, but it may be worth a look)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zostera_m … 20seashore.
Well this might be a near miss: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … na_dis.png

This is informative: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 017-1128-7
Quote;

Abstract
There is a possibility that deep coastal marine macrophytes will be less critically affected by thermal stress associated with climate change and remain as refugia. Thus, information on them is expected to contribute to conservation of biodiversity in coastal areas affected by climate change. To document the deep-growing Zostera caulescens in relation to the light environment, field surveys were conducted in coastal waters of the central area along the Japan Sea coast of Honshu, Japan, and then the relationship between the light environment and seagrass depth limit was examined. In the coastal waters of Sado Island and Noto Peninsula, the presence of deep coastal communities of Z. caulescens was confirmed in the depth range of 20–25 m. Biomass and shoot density for Z. caulescens, ranging 34.1–51.3 g DW m−2 and 83–112 shoots m−2, were recorded at a depth of 20 m in Ryotsu Bay, Sado Island. For the genus Zostera including the deep-growing Z. caulescens, the relation between the extinction coefficient and seagrass depth limit was described by the fitted regression equation. The minimum light requirement of the deep-growing Z. caulescens was markedly lower than that of the shallow-growing Zostera marina.

This seems to be a cousin that can grow in deeper water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zostera_caulescens

Another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zostera_a … nds%29.%20

Some images that "Might" be correct: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Zo … HoverTitle

I am sure these would not do well in a tropical hypersaline lighted water, but a simulation of cool/cold water might work OK. This is apparently 300 million years of evolutions results.

So, you could try to do a saline inversion, with an ice-covered body of very transparent ice, and relatively fresh water on top and Earth Sea saltiness on the bottom. Arctic temperatures on the top but more temperate temperatures on the bottom.

So, imagine that the possibility of farm fields of grain on Mars.

So, convert the maximum of 25 meters to feet: (82.0209974). I like feet when dealing with water on Mars. 1 foot = about 10 millibars pressure, if it is fresh water. Salt water would be a little heavier. But that is the maximum for the seagrass family it appears. But if it were fresh water, it would be approximately 820 millibars pressure at the lowest that the plant could grow. But it would be traveling through ice, and it would be on Mars so let's suppose that it just might deal with being 330 millibars deep. That would be about 33 feet, and I am pushing it! You probably need some sort of lighting assistance such as an underwater heliostat to make some patches habitable for the grass to grow with vigor. And if you are a human, you probably want more water over your head because a pressure of 333 millibars is rather low and would get lower for your head if you were walking on the bottom like Captain Nemo.

The alternative would be deeper water and artificial lights. Maybe a combination of natural and artificial lights and underwater Heliostats.

Yes, it is a bit goofball, but it is fun to imagine walking on a lake floor through grainfields. I'm guessing you haven't thought of that before.

Actually, might be psychologically good. And actually, perhaps a food source. I also believe that the grass has sugar in its root system.

Yes, apparently true: https://phys.org/news/2022-05-sweet-sea … grass.html

I don't know how that might be harvested though.

That is from the Mediterranean Sea though which would be warmer. Actually, more pleasant to walk though. Don't forget to wear your cement overshoes though to keep you on the bottom. It would be quite possible to have a plastic dome midway down in the water to more allow warmer temperatures. But you would have to consider how to have sufficient lighting.

These guys grow vegies in air filled domes: Nemo's Gardens: (I have pestered the members before with this):

http://www.nemosgarden.com/
Quote Video: https://youtu.be/Stqgv8CqoJI

So then imagine that there are these domes mostly filled with water but with a breathing bubble on the top. You could snorkel dive, I think. But then again you might get into lighting problems in order to have safety for the diver and also have enough light.

A multiduplex dome would allow warmer water on the bottom with cooler water above it. But the maintenance of pressure safety balance against needed lighting is a true problem. It could be solved at a cost.

But rather interesting.

This was trouble to make, and not that great, but I guess it can convey an idea:

OK, that plenty I should go do something else.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 17:10:20)

Void · 2023-01-01 21:06:45

Well, I confess, that I am obsessed with Eelgrass/Seagrass. More information then:

It turns out that my confusion was justified, as there are many types of the plant. But the point is they are rather adapted to salt water and might be useful on Mars as is, but I also wonder if they could be altered genetically to be of other uses. For instance, Sugar Cane is a grass also, but I expect that the genetic distance is far.

They do have seeds, and there was some notion of harvesting grain in Spain.

A good one, very complete and detailed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagrass# … ere%20else.
Image Quote:

Canada appears to be host to cold water variations of it.
https://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/wha … grass.html
Image Quote:

https://richardsonbay.audubon.org/conve … t-eelgrass

https://greatbay.org/61516-2/

Good:
https://botos.com/marine/egrass01.html# … s%20health.
So, you can get away with a lot if you have very clear water:
Quote:

Eelgrass may be found growing just a few feet under water or at depths up to 100 feet or more if the water is unusually clear (e.g. some areas along the California coast). How deep eelgrass grows depends on the amount of light available and on the clarity of the water. Temperature and salinity also affect eelgrass health.

And this is interesting, grow it in an aquarium:
https://www.hepper.com/eelgrass/
Image Quote:

Interesting:
https://stw-news.org/is-eelgrass-the-same-as-seagrass/
Quote:

Is eelgrass the same as seagrass?
Seagrasses are one of the only flowering plants, or angiosperms, that can grow in a marine environment. Two common seagrasses that occur on the West Coast are eelgrass (genus Zostera) and surfgrass (genus Phyllospadix), with eelgrass being the most prevalent and occurring in Washington, Oregon, and California.

Is seagrass annual or perenial?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33959136/
Apparently, there are some of each.

It appears that if you maintain good water clarity on Earth as mentioned in a quote above, it can grow even at 100 feet or more. For all non-savages, here is a converter: https://www.unitconverters.net/length/f … meters.htm
So, 30.48 meters then.

But on Mars, if we go to 50 feet, that gives about .5 bars of pressure, and will attenuate the light less. If you are 5-6 feet tall, then you have 45 to 44 feet of water over your head, if you are walking on the bottom, so 450 millibars, or 440 millibars. That might be OK, but you want some method that keeps you from floating up to a level where you would suffer from low pressure.

It would not hurt to add some artificial light at times, I would suppose, and I wonder about Acetate, to assist the plants?

Of course, I tend to not let this one go: https://engr.udel.edu/news/2022/06/arti … synthesis/
Quote:

Artificial Photosynthesis
Jun 23, 2022

Researchers from University of Delaware and the University of California Riverside are reimagining ways to grow food, leveraging electrolyzer technology and acetate to grow crops without photosynthesis.
UD researchers and colleagues report progress on producing food without sunlight
Photosynthesis is the process that enables plants to take sunlight and carbon dioxide and convert it into chemical energy to grow. Crop plants, however, are only about 1% efficient at doing this, requiring large swaths of land to meet food demand.
As our global population grows, humanity is increasingly pressed to produce more food within the same land area because — let’s face it — the Earth isn’t getting any bigger.
But what if there was a way to break these terrestrial ties?
Researchers at the University of Delaware and the University of California Riverside are working on technology to produce food without sunlight through artificial photosynthesis. The collaborative effort, reported June 23 in Nature Food, could be the one small step needed to enable a giant leap in reimagining how food can be produced on Earth, and maybe even in space.
“If we get rid of the need for sunlight, then we can grow multiple layers of crops at once, similar to the way mushrooms are grown, and create a sort of food factory,” said Feng Jiao, the Robert K. Grasselli, Ph.D. Professor of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering at UD.
In the work, the researchers used a two-step carbon dioxide electrolyzer system to produce a chemical compound called acetate. Electrolyzers are devices that use electricity to convert raw materials like carbon dioxide into useful molecules and products. Acetate is a common ingredient found in household items, such as vinegar, cosmetics and hair care products. But here, acetate was used to cultivate yeast, mushroom-producing fungus and photosynthetic green algae in the dark, without photosynthesis.
The UD-developed electrolyzer efficiently converted 57% of the carbon molecules found in carbon dioxide to acetate using a copper catalyst, creating a highly concentrated acetate stream that could be used as plant food. The UCR researchers evaluated nine crop plants (lettuce, rice, cowpea, green pea, canola, tomato, pepper, tobacco and Arabidopsis, a member of the mustard family that includes cabbage and radishes) and found the plants were able to take up carbon from this externally supplied acetate through major metabolic pathways.
Further, the researchers found that, when coupled with an external solar cell to power the electrolyzer, the approach required just one-fourth the energy to grow the same amount of food created by sunlight and natural photosynthesis. For example, the algae grew about four times more energy efficiently with this method compared to photosynthesis, and yeast was able to be cultivated about 18 times more energy efficiently than typical methods involving sugar.
Chance encounter bears fruit
The collaborative research project grew out of a chance meeting in fall 2018 when Jiao was giving a talk at the University of California Riverside about his use of electrocatalysis to convert carbon dioxide to other chemicals and products.
In the audience, Jinkerson, UCR assistant professor of chemical and environmental engineering and of botany and plant sciences, perked up when Jiao mentioned that one of the end products he could make using this method was acetate. Jinkerson approached Jiao after the presentation.
“Robert was looking for technology to grow food without photosynthesis,” Jiao said.

UD researchers used a two-step carbon dioxide electrolyzer system to produce a chemical compound called acetate. Electrolyzers are devices that use electricity to convert raw materials like carbon dioxide into useful molecules and products. Acetate is a common ingredient found in household items, such as vinegar, cosmetics and hair care products. But here, acetate was used to cultivate yeast, mushroom-producing fungus and photosynthetic green algae in the dark, without photosynthesis.
The two research groups quickly teamed up to see if the acetate created through Jiao’s electrochemical systems could serve as both a carbon and energy source so that plants could grow without the benefit of photosynthesis from direct sunlight.
According to Sean Overa, a fourth-year chemical engineering doctoral student at UD and a co-first author on the paper, the tricky part of the electrocatalysis side of the work was figuring out the right concentration of acetate to use.
“We found out pretty quickly that typical products derived from carbon dioxide electrolyzers have way too much salt content to support food-producing organisms, such as algae, fungus or plants,” he said.
So Overa and Jiao broke the process into two steps, first converting carbon dioxide to carbon monoxide and then converting the carbon monoxide to a more highly concentrated acetate the plants could use.
At UCR, Jinkerson’s research team tested the acetate on photosynthetic algae to see whether it would support the growth of food-producing plants in the dark. The team’s results showed the method produced algae at yields comparable to those found with typical growth mediums.
The method was about four times more energy efficient than natural photosynthesis at converting carbon dioxide to plant biomass.
“We were able to grow algae completely in the dark,” said Overa. Meanwhile, lettuce showed the best incorporation of the acetate out of all the food crops.
The researchers also studied where the acetate went inside the plant. The results showed that all of the plants tested were able to incorporate acetate, and they were fairly willing to digest and use the carbon molecules. In some plants, the acetate showed up in the plant’s amino acids. In others, it was found in sugars the plant used as energy for growth.
“It showed us that there are digestive pathways that could be unlocked inside of many plant species that could allow them eventually to completely grow on acetate,” said Overa.
Future work could include exploring ways to bioengineer plants to grow solely on acetate and further optimizing the electrolyzer system’s ability to produce increasingly concentrated acetate from carbon dioxide.
The researchers said the approach could potentially lead to more efficient food production. For instance, by liberating agriculture from complete dependence on the sun, artificial photosynthesis opens the door to countless possibilities for growing food under the increasingly difficult conditions imposed by anthropogenic climate change. Drought, floods and reduced land availability would be less of a threat to global food security if crops for humans and animals grew in less resource-intensive, controlled environments.
“Using solar energy to power our process could allow for more food or animal feed to be produced on a given area of land. Widespread adoption of this type of approach could help to meet the rising demand for food without expansion of agricultural lands,” said Jinkerson.
Overa agreed. “For countries that are prone to famine or maybe don’t have as much arable land, the technology could lower the burden of food growth if we can get the plants to grow wholly on acetate,” he said.
Crops could also be grown in cities and other areas currently unsuitable for agriculture, and even provide food for future space explorers, the researchers said.
Scaled successfully, Jiao added the work might also provide a way to address two societal issues — food security and carbon neutralization — with one technology.
“Carbon dioxide emissions are a big problem. My research group is trying to tackle this problem by using carbon dioxide as a carbon source for chemical production. But even if all the chemicals society uses are made from carbon dioxide, it only accounts for about 6% of our total global carbon dioxide emissions,” said Jiao. “To tackle the other 94% we have to look at extremely large-scale activities. On Earth, the largest activity is food production.”
Other co-authors on the paper from UCR include co-first authors Elizabeth Hann and Marcus Harland-Dunaway, as well as Andres Narvaez, Dang Le and Martha Orozco-Cárdenas.
Article by Karen B. Roberts | Illustration by Jeffrey C. Chase | Photo courtesy of Prof. Feng Jiao | June 23, 2022

I don't think that the crop plants did as well as the algae, and yeast, but I think it might help a plant. Perhaps 33% natural light, 33% artificial light and 33% chemicals?

A speculation.

Anyway, I think it would be rather something to walk through a seagrass field on the bottom of a lake in the daylight on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 21:34:54)

Void · 2023-01-01 23:19:02

Yes, I am weird.

I thought I had forgotten to mention that seagrass has cellulose.

So how about paper, and if paper, how about pseudo wood?

Bingo: https://bioresources.cnr.ncsu.edu/resou … %20species.
Quote:

Fiber characteristics and papermaking of seagrass using hand-beaten and blended pulp
Syed, N. N. F., Zakaria, M. H., and Bujang, J. S. (2016). "Fiber characteristics and papermaking of seagrass using hand-beaten and blended pulp," BioRes. 11(2), 5358-5380.
Abstract
Marine angiosperms could inevitably offer considerable potential resources for their fiber, yet little research has been conducted, especially in Malaysia. Fiber characteristics of five species of seagrass – Enhalus acoroides, Cymodocea serrulata, Thalassia hemprichii, Halophila ovalis, and Halophila spinulosa – were evaluated. Fiber dimensions were studied to determine slenderness ratio, flexibility coefficient, Runkel’s ratio, and Luce’s shape factor species selection. The seagrass species have the potential in papermaking production as they possessed slenderness ratio >33 (98.12 to 154.08) and high Luce’s shape factor (0.77 to 0.83); however the species exhibited low flexibility coefficient <50 (30.07 to 35.18) and >1 Runkel’s ratio (1.11 to 1.60), which indicate rigid fiber. The five seagrass species have high cellulose >34% (40.30 to 77.18%) and low lignin content <15% (5.02 to 11.20%), which are similar to those encountered in non-wood plant species. Handmade paper sheet of Enhalus acoroides using pulp subjected to mechanical blending exhibited the highest tensile strength (4.16 kN/m) compared to hand-beaten pulp (3.46 kN/m). The highest breaking length (3.43 km) was achieved by a paper sheet of Thalassia hemprichii using hand-beaten pulp. Based on their physical and chemical composition properties, seagrass have potential as sources of fibrous material for handmade papermaking.

And the article continues for a very long read.

So, I presume pseudo wood, if you use the cellulose by some method to compose such.

The query that fetched that was: "Seagrass and cellulose"

If you want to look at the general response, then: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Seagrass% … cc=0&ghpl=

I think that seagrass or something else that can provide similar are going to be very big in outer space, and on Mars.

Most sea creatures do not eat seagrass, because of the cellulose.

And there can be this query: "Making alcohol from cellulose"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Making … cc=0&ghpl=
Well I am glad they are still doing research. Specific Response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosi … %20alcohol.

Goodnight!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-01 23:33:13)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-02 07:23:16

For Void re new investigation of sea grass ....

As you pursue your current interest, I am hoping you will discover answers to several questions that might occur if this plant is considered for Mars...

1) Can the plant grow/thrive in the reduced solar radiation available at Mars?

2) What other atom types are needed in the mixture with water, to support growth

3) Could the pond be operated at a very low pressure, inside an enclosure able to admit light?

If the water that would evaporate at low pressure is captured by the enclosure, then the water would not be lost, but instead redirected to the pond.

Some heating of the pond will be required, to prevent freezing, if the pond is located at the surface.

Your current investigation is encouraging!

(th)

Void · 2023-01-02 10:53:53

I value your interest tahanson43206. I do understand that you are going to shake me a bit with banking logic, and that could be good.

Usually, my compas is pointed at possibilities, and now my other compas is challenged to examine practicality.

I may not take your query in sequence. Your word pond, is of interest. I have a water structure which I posted above a while back. Lets call it a water ring(s).

This structure would adapt to "Ponds" in permafrost. Permafrost can act like a liner to keep water from draining out though the soil. That is why there are often tundra ponds. The image above is for another but related method, but can illustrate water ring canals, that could be joined together in a vast network if desired.

Here are some tundra ponds images, and apparently some trucks as well. I should be shopping for a new vehicle now actually: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=tu … HoverTitle

But a ring pond/lake/canal(s) offers two things I like. The cold of the surrounding land will permeate into the frozen regolith under the pond to help it stay frozen, to help maintain the structure of the pond. And we can put mirrors on the land on the edges of the ring pond/lake/canal(s). This then can answer your question #1. We can put stationary mirrors and also perhaps heliostats appropriately to deflect photons from the "Land" into the ring pond/lake/canal(s). This partially answers #1. The other part is to create very transparent ice, and water, where needed, and to consider the addition of artificial lighting, and Acetate to promote crop growth where that is of a benefit.

Not every part of a ring would get the same treatment. Not every part of a ring would grow the same crop. Plants or large algae that anchor to the bottom might be given additional light. Algae that grows on the bottom ice probably would not get more light.

It is also possible that orbital mirrors would shine additional light on patches of these rings.

Going to your question #2. Like aquariums, the chemicals in the water, probably salts, would need to be controlled. It is possible that perchlorates would initially get into the water. The crops in that case might not be used for food but processed for useful materials.
It can be expected that water with sunlight and microbes would rapidly consume the Perchlorates though. At least I expect that to be true.

As for question #3, I am presuming an enclosure somewhat based on the works of Calliban, which should have transparency. Of course, work will be needed to keep that clean in the Martian environment. No getting around that. He has gone so far as to suggest that those could be anchored into the ground, and could hold human rated atmospheres inside.

In my case, I am not really looking for that level of robustness. I only want to be able to keep cold water and cold ice as liquid and solid phases. Usually the surface of the ring pond/lake/canal(s) will be covered with ice. Usually that ice will be quite cold at the surface, provided it is clear and does not absorb sunlight energy excessively. On occasion if the "Calliban Cover" is in tact, the internal air pressure being 2 to 6 millibars, (But really you could probably go much higher), you might melt the ice to liquid to reform the ice window. You would likely pour a degassed liquid on top and let it freeze. It would probably be less salty than the water below, so that it would float on top.

Durning the nights, the top of the ice would get very cold on Mars. Let's look at the ice on Lake Vanda in Antarctica.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vand … nes%22.%20 Quote:

Ice-covered Lake Vanda with Onyx River in the right foreground The lake is covered by a transparent ice sheet 3.5–4 metres (11–13 ft) year-round, though melting in late December forms a moat out to approximately 50 metres (160 ft) from the shore. The surface of the ice is not covered with snow and is "deeply rutted with cracks and melt lines".

The ice is exposed to Antarctic winter weather, but the temperatures of the salt water under the ice is great enough that the lake does not freeze solid. The ice is a thermal insulator, so, the bottom ice can be about melting point, but the top can be very frigid.

Here is a bit about the winter conditions on top of Lake Vanda: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programm … ation-1969
Quote:

Temperatures dropping to minus 57 degrees, 16 weeks of darkness, isolation stretching to eight months and logistical challenges...
That's what five scientists faced during the first winter at New Zealand's Vanda Station in Antarctica in 1969.
On the shore of Lake Vanda in the Dry Valleys, the group were investigating the strangely snowless landscape, and why the lake, while covered in metres of ice, had waters reaching 25 degrees at the bottom of the lake.
It was a remarkable expedition, not just for its scientific contributions, but for the limited supplies and extreme conditions they endured.
Kathryn speaks to two of the group; Al Riordan and Simon Cutfield, who have written a book of their experience; Keep in a Cool Place: The First Winter at Vanda Station, Antarctica.

Quote (th):

If the water that would evaporate at low pressure is captured by the enclosure, then the water would not be lost, but instead redirected to the pond.

We will probably try to turn a frown upside down for that. This seems like a rude terminology, but it is what is: https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/blog/2 … 0a%20beard. Quote:

Emilie Bonnevay
Public enquiries officer
Hoar frost is a type of feathery frost that forms as a result of specific climatic conditions. The word ‘hoar’ comes from old English and refers to the old age appearance of the frost: the way the ice crystals form makes it look like white hair or a beard.

It will likely be required to deal with something like this inside of the toroidal domes: tree-branches-covered-in-snow-wtml-1081403-jane-corey.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=825&height=464&rnd=133147083260000000

This also will relate to your question #1 about lighting.

In the nighttime, I expect the inside of the toroidal dome to attract a condensate of this frost, as the surface of the cold ice may sublimate.
In the day then when this is evaporated by sunlight, it would likely also then condense as frost on the cold surface of the ice. This may tend to defuse light passing into the ring pond/lake/canal(s). The treatment can be a defrost cycle, where you would pull the warming air of daylight into a thermal defroster perhaps. It could be a thermal capacitor cooled off at night. The method would perhaps compress the dome air into a cool tank and allow it to condense as distilled water, and this would defrost your windows, while the sunlight was giving assistance. Interestingly allowing the hoar frost to accumulate on the inside of the dome of the ring pond/lake/canal(s) at night could reduce the loss of heat to the nighttime skies. So, in a way the frost/defrost cycle would function a bit like a solar/thermal diode process.
The water obtained in this manner may server human needs, and then the waste water treated be returned to the pond.

Another way to combat "Hoarfrost" on the ice would be something like a Zamboni machine, or something on that order: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=za … HoverTitle

Probably a robot that would treat the surface of the ice to improve its transparency.

Quote (th):

Some heating of the pond will be required, to prevent freezing, if the pond is located at the surface.

Looking at this image again:

As you can see there is plenty of space inside and outside of the ring pond/lake/canal(s) for additional heating methods. Mirrors pointing light into the water, solar panels giving peak power heating with electricity, or solar thermal methods.

Additionally, if you have nuclear fission, you have waste heat to dispose of. Even if you have Helion fusion, you are going to have waste heat from industrial processes to dispose of.

I appreciate your encouragement. It turned out that your query was valuable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-02 12:00:49)

Void · 2023-01-02 13:12:37

Continuing with the just previous post, there are several farming schemes which have been considered, but the Algae that grows on the underside of ice is probably the one that needs the least fussing to produce Oxygen and biomass.

From post #733: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 34#p204634

https://www.nwf.org/Home/Magazines/Nati … -Ice-Algae
sea-ice-strands-FM19-900x591.ashx

Such a canal might just give headroom for a person in an appropriate suit to walk under the ice on the canal floor. The suit has to hold air pressure as the water column would likely not be sufficient. But in reality, robots could harvest the algae and monitor it.

So, that would be bulk farming for algae mass.

A canal like this could alternately support terrarium farming:
https://www.gardenguides.com/13427733-h … arium.html
Perhaps you will like this one:
https://www.selfsustainingecosystem.com … s-to-grow/
Quote:

10 Easiest Edible Terrarium Plants to Grow
by Joe Monk | Nov 7, 2020 | Shop, Terrarium Guides

So, these would be sealed canisters that might be deployed into a freshwater canal.
If you go below the ice, it is a frost-free situation.

In this case the canal could be deep enough to pressurize a person, but the plants would be deployed just under the ice in pressurized terrariums.

Those could be moved into and out of the canal. Sadly, some of the crops they mention would not like nighttime's just a fraction above freezing. But for some it would work just fine. So, these would actually be some table foods we would be familiar with or could adapt to.

Here are some cold hardy plants: https://gilmour.com/cold-weather-crops# … 20Beans%20

Here are some more: https://www.outdoorapothecary.com/cold-weather-crops/
Quote:

Here’s a handy list of cold weather crops to consider for growing in the fall and winter.
Arugula 30-40 days to harvest
Beet 50-65 days to harvest
Broccoli 60-70 days to harvest
Cabbage 50-65 days to harvest
Carrots
55-75 days to harvest
Cauliflower 65-75 days to harvest
Cilantro 60-75 days to harvest
Collards
55-60 days to harvest
Garlic in the spring
Kale 45-60 days to harvest
Kohlrabi 55-65 days to harvest
Lettuce 45-60 days to harvest
Leek 85-105 in ground all winter
Mustard 30-50 days to harvest
Green bunching onion 55-60 days to harvest
Snap Peas 55-60 days to harvest
Radish 25-40 days to harvest
Spinach 37-50 days to harvest
Swiss Chard 50-60 days to harvest
Turnip 45-60 days to harvest

If you wanted to do things like Tomato's, you would likely need a heater method. That could be passive solar storage actually. Perhaps a tank of water under the plant bed that absorbed heat from the day. It would need good insulation under and on the sides of it. But then each thing that has to be fussed with has to be justified in a cost benefit analysis.

So, then you need a diving bell of sorts to open these terrariums up in.

This is some previous efforts to work with such notions:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p204288

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 05#p204305
This is a side view of the canal method with a hydrostatic dumbwaiter system for the terrariums:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 11#p204311

So, bulk farming on Mars may be a possibility.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-02 13:46:48)

Calliban · 2023-01-02 17:52:52

Void, that dumb waiter is an innovative approach. Food can descend into the cave, simply by weighting the capsules to counteract bouyancy. They drop down the tube. Empty capsules with positive bouyancy will float back up the return tube. Genius!

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-02 17:54:20)

Void · 2023-01-02 19:47:37

I am glad you have come up with that use. There could be many uses/methods.

I guess we could call these things "Water Loops?".

We have the option to flow water though them and/or move objects through them.

I would like to offer a trial balloon for potable water, or at least wash water. It might be considered potable in the case where nothing else was available that would sustain life.

Ideally it would be as clean as a mountain stream in untouched nature. We can try for that, and then settle for less if we have to.

In this case we will use fresh water and will flow it though the loop. We will only add wastewater that we feel the system can reasonably cleanse. Wash water from dishes? OK, wash water from baths and showers? Maybe. Urine probably not. Make use it for some purpose.
Poo??? No!!!

So, in the imperial world of measurement we might have ice in the horizontal portion of the loop, and under that 32.1 degrees F water, and under that water up to 39 degrees F. Typically, that is how a freshwater winter pond is. Conversions to C are 0.1 to 3.88888889 C.

https://pelicanlakemn.org/Education/Lak … 0to%20them.
Quote:

Algae in the winter?

Did you know that algae are alive under lake ice in the winter? If you enjoy ice fishing, you have maybe seen this occur.
Some species of algae are adapted to survive in cold temperatures, such as the 39º F water under the ice. The growth of these winter algae mainly depends on how much light and nutrients are available to them.
The light available depends on how much snow we have on top of the ice. At this time last year, we had a lot of ice, but not much snow, so light was able to shine through the ice and be used by algae and plants for photosynthesis. This winter, we have had a fairly thick snow cover over the ice, so the amount of light able to get through the ice is probably much less.
Algae grow best in the winter in eutrophic lakes because they have more nutrients (phosphorus and nitrogen) available for them to use as food.
So why does it matter that algae can grow in the winter? When they photosynthesize, they give off oxygen as a byproduct. This oxygen is then available for fish, aquatic insects and other aquatic animals to breathe.
This dynamic is especially important in shallow, nutrient-rich lakes. In these lakes, there is a lot of decomposition going on at the bottom of the lake, which uses a lot of oxygen. During periods of prolonged ice cover, the lake is sealed off from the atmosphere and cannot be recharged with oxygenated air. The decomposition process and all the fish and aquatic organisms in the lake use up the oxygen, and when it does not get replenished, oxygen levels can get too low for fish to survive.
If the conditions are just right – crystal clear ice and enough nutrients available – you can even see the algae growing under the ice. Next time you're out ice fishing or walking on the lake, take a look and remember not all algae is bad!
Until next week, enjoy the lakes.

Moriya Rufer is the Lakes Monitoring Program Coordinator for RMB Environmental Laboratories in Detroit Lakes, 218-846-1465, lakes.rmbel@eot.co

So, we do have the reduced sunlight of Mars, but we have excellent clarity of ice and no snow, and we groom any hoar frost that shows up.

So, we are simulating a freshwater pond with an inlet and outlet stream. If we add needed nutrients cold water algae can grow, and presumably some other types of microbes. Granted there will be the issue of Henries Laws about dissolved gasses. The pressure in the additive pressure of Martian ambient, the pressure to keep the toroid dome inflated, and the ice layer, will influence what quantiles of gasses can be dissolved in the water. The temperature variation will also have some influence.

Since there are likely to be many such loops, I would suggest that in some cases Martian atmosphere would be introduced to the water. In other cases, it would be the CO2 of the habitat from peoples breathing.

Cold water should soak up lots of CO2 for the Algae to utilize. In return they will release O2. If the rate of CO2 introduction and consumption by algae is in proper balance, then CO2 should not saturate in the water. But O2 will, and so it will bubble out of solution under the ice where it might be collected.

If we are in a loop where we introduce Martian atmosphere to the water to dissolve, then the Algae will consume the CO2, and release O2 to water saturation, but N2 and Argon will also saturate, and so the stuff that bubbles out of solution under the ice will be an O2/N2/Argon mixture more or less.

I am not sure we would want to, but I bet that there are some freshwater Arctic clams that might be able to live in this situation and filter feed. It is hard to say if at the bottom of the canal, or in the box at the bottom of the vertical portion of the loop. If we add Calcium from Calcium Perchlorate, they may make shell. Of course, we need to keep the Perchlorate salts themselves entirely out of that process. Shells may have a value. And maybe they would help clean the water. Not sure. They would have to have enough Oxygen in either case.

In this system we are flowing water, and have thermal water layering, so if there is a reason we might get away with laminar flow around the horizontal loop, and only move one layer or the other up and down through the vertical parts of the loop.

We might entertain this trick if we are dealing with a saltwater loop as well where we might have layered by differing solutions of brine.

In such a case it is even possible to have temperatures of 80 degrees C on the bottom, and below 0 C up near the ice layer.

But for agriculture 90 degrees C would be too hot.

Done for now.

Lake Vanda has 23 degree C bottom water as how nature does it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).

Artificially, on Earth this is done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:

Description
When the sun's rays contact the bottom of a shallow pool, they heat the water adjacent to the bottom. When water at the bottom of the pool is heated, it becomes less dense than the cooler water above it, and convection begins. Solar ponds heat water by impeding this convection. Salt is added to the water until the lower layers of water become completely saturated. High-salinity water at the bottom of the pond does not mix readily with the low-salinity water above it, so when the bottom layer of water is heated, convection occurs separately in the bottom and top layers, with only mild mixing between the two. This greatly reduces heat loss, and allows for the high-salinity water to get up to 90 °C while maintaining 30 °C low-salinity water.[1] This hot, salty water can then be pumped away for use in electricity generation, through a turbine or as a source of thermal energy.

Quote:

Efficiency
The energy obtained is in the form of low-grade heat of 70 to 80 °C compared to an assumed 20 °C ambient temperature. According to the second law of thermodynamics (see Carnot-cycle), the maximum theoretical efficiency of a cycle that uses heat from a high temperature reservoir at 80 °C and has a lower temperature of 20 °C is 1−(273+20)/(273+80)=17%. By comparison, a power plant's heat engine delivering high-grade heat at 800 °C would have a maximum theoretical limit of 73% for converting heat into useful work (and thus would be forced to divest as little as 27% in waste heat to the cold temperature reservoir at 20 °C). The low efficiency of solar ponds is usually justified with the argument that the 'collector', being just a plastic-lined pond, might potentially result in a large-scale system that is of lower overall levelised energy cost than a solar concentrating system

We might use heliostats to get hotter water to push more photons into the device or might just heat up brine and store it on the bottom, while using the top for agriculture. If we can tap into the heat sink of Mars we can do better than the 20 degrees c that they describe in their sample. Perhaps you could think of something for that. A cold brine lake at -50 C? Of course then the fluid to boil would not be water but likely a hydrocarbon or Ammonia.

For my review and for the other members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminar_flow
Quote:

Laminar flow
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Both smooth and clear laminar flow and turbulent flow with foam can be seen at the edge of Horseshoe Falls.
The velocity profile associated with laminar flow resembles a deck of cards. This flow profile of a fluid in a pipe shows that the fluid acts in layers that slide over one another.
In fluid dynamics, laminar flow is characterized by fluid particles following smooth paths in layers, with each layer moving smoothly past the adjacent layers with little or no mixing.[1] At low velocities, the fluid tends to flow without lateral mixing, and adjacent layers slide past one another like playing cards. There are no cross-currents perpendicular to the direction of flow, nor eddies or swirls of fluids.[2] In laminar flow, the motion of the particles of the fluid is very orderly with particles close to a solid surface moving in straight lines parallel to that surface.[3] Laminar flow is a flow regime characterized by high momentum diffusion and low momentum convection.
When a fluid is flowing through a closed channel such as a pipe or between two flat plates, either of two types of flow may occur depending on the velocity and viscosity of the fluid: laminar flow or turbulent flow. Laminar flow occurs at lower velocities, below a threshold at which the flow becomes turbulent. The threshold velocity is determined by a dimensionless parameter characterizing the flow called the Reynolds number, which also depends on the viscosity and density of the fluid and dimensions of the channel. Turbulent flow is a less orderly flow regime that is characterized by eddies or small packets of fluid particles, which result in lateral mixing.[2] In non-scientific terms, laminar flow is smooth, while turbulent flow is rough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-02 20:29:12)

Void · 2023-01-02 20:31:50

Per your post #739 Calliban, yes, we can move objects through the loop as well, and buoyancy will be a factor. Your scheme is interesting.

I might like to have an elevator robot in the vertical pipe(s), and a swimmer robot to help direct the capsules in the loops horizontal section.

If capsules can be mass produced and work , and be durable it may be a useful scheme.

Done.

Void · 2023-01-02 23:42:53

Yes, it is obsessive behavior, but getting ready to sleep I ran into an article that I cannot pass up, as it is in the ballpark of recent posts here.

Query: "An Antarctic Alga That Can Survive the Extreme Cold"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=An+Antarc … 3f&pc=U531

Lake Bonney is a bit like Lake Vanda: (Once upon a time in the last gasps of a warm era, Mars may have had a lake or so like this.)
The article that I ran into: https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/1 … 022.740838
Quote:

Life In A Lake At The Bottom Of The World
There are better places to call home than Antarctica. But apparently the green alga Chlamydomonas sp. UWO241 did not get the memo (Figure 1). This tiny, egg-shaped, single-celled organism, which has two antennae-like structures called flagella for swimming, lives in the frigid waters of Lake Bonney, Antarctica (Figure 2A). If you are planning a summer vacation, best to skip Lake Bonney. This relatively small lake is found in a frozen desert called the McMurdo Dry Valleys and it is surrounded by desolate mountains, glaciers, and the vast, endless expanses of the Earth’s southern-most continent (Figure 2B). If that were not enough, Lake Bonney is permanently covered in five meters of ice, thicker than the height of a basketball net. UWO241 exists in the near-freezing liquid water, 17 meters beneath the frozen surface (Figure 3), and no one knew it was there until researchers discovered it a few decades ago [1].

This is quite a useful diagram:

Some things I think I know about these lakes is the upper water with sunlight are starved for nutrients, but very full of Oxygen, presumably from the Alga. I believe that if a hole is drilled the Oxygen will bubble out of solution, it is so dense in the solution.

It is actually a contrast with the Algae of the lake I mentioned in the last post: https://pelicanlakemn.org/Education/Lak … 0to%20them

I have actually done such ice fishing and seen those blooms. They look nice actually. But the fresh water Algae, blooms in a temperate Northen winter. This Alga, in Lake Bonney blooms in the Southern Hemisphere Summer, and is in very salty water.

So, both organisms might be useful in their own ways on Mars.

The ice layer is 5 meters thick. For cave people that is 16.4041995 feet, so about 160 millibars pressure on Mars, if it were water, but * .92 would approximately give about 15, so actually 150 millibars in the gravitational field of Mars. Approximately.

And 17 meters or 55.7742782 feet below the bottom of the ice. And that contribution would be 557 millibars, if it were fresh water but it is brine. So, the combination would be greater than 700 millibars. That is more than enough pressure for a human.

I am guessing that the microbes would be down there to get a compromise between sunlight availability and nutrient availability.

We might as well have a look at Lake Bonney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonney_(Antarctica)
Image Quote:

So, I think that on Mars ice clarity can be better and ice thickness would not have to be nearly that much. Maybe 10% of the thickness, on a guess, at the most. Nutrients can also be provided to the waters where light might shine through, much higher up than what the indicate in this article.

------

This is also interesting, about cold adaptations for Algae in Antarctica: https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/37/3/940/5753875

Not much global warming: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/09/weather/ … index.html

Another article about Lake Bonney: https://blog.frontiersin.org/2020/08/20 … ctic-lake/ dsc_8980.jpg?resize=940%2C627&ssl=1 The flat white area is Lake Bonney. In the background is Taylor Glacier.

Since I could not find a number for Algae itself, here is an alternative, Lichens: (Coldest temperature that lichen can metabolize at in Antarctica):
https://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-ant … s/lichens/
Quote:

Adaptations
Lichens have adaptations that enable them to survive in Antarctica.
They are able to exhibit net photosynthesis while frozen at temperatures as low as −20 °C.
They can absorb water from a saturated atmosphere when covered by snow. Snow cover provides protection from the elements. Most growth appears to occur when lichens are beneath at least a thin protective layer of snow.
Lichens can survive long periods of drought in a dry and inactive state. In continental Antarctica, many lichens are able to absorb water vapour from snow and ice.

We can anticipate that the partner in the lichen will be either an Algae, or Cyanobacteria.

So, I would put a bottom limit for water that "Might" support photosynthesis at −20 °C. So, that is no vapor pressure at all practically.

It is probably not necessary to go that low on Mars, as the ice surface could be that cold, which the water under the ice could be melted and warmer than that. But I like to find the boundaries.

So, far it looks like we will not have photo organisms that can grow, at temperatures less than −20 °C. For use cave people that is -4 °F.

Well, pretty good stuff in this post, according to me.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 00:33:20)

Void · 2023-01-03 10:56:27

I guess I am going to see how far I can get with "Light transmission though ice" as a query:

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Light+ … d40970821b

Actually looking at images might sort out the chaff: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=%2 … HoverTitle

Some Graphs, which I am attracted to: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … t=0&sim=11

Maybe this is good: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jo … 2-mm-b.png

Search Web for that Image: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … t=2&sim=11

Well, I guess the above comes from this site: https://www.researchgate.net/

This is actually what I am after: "Blocking effect of ice on Ultraviolet light"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Blocking+ … c9f7cb5663

An interesting response, I am thinking they are using hard U.V. to kill the bacteria: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4967756 … 0the%20ice.
Quote:

Within 15 min, UV light transmitted through a 19-cm thick ice block inactivated 98% of the bacteria suspended in the buffer solution. We concluded that the UV rays were able to penetrate at least 19 cm of ice and still retain enough energy to kill bacteria. However, the UV penetration depended greatly on the optical quality of the ice.

Of course, I actually want to find out if Ice can protect microbes.

This is a nice article but is about water, which may or may not pertain to water ice: https://emfadvice.com/water-block-radiation/
Image Quote:
The graph suggests to me that water is helpful, and probably ice is as well.

------

New Query: "Does Ultraviolet light get blocked by the Arctic ice pack?"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Does+Ultr … 9d3f9dd053

Interesting: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/T … ac31596aa7
Some interpretation needed but:

Ultraviolet transmittance was approximately a factor of ten greater for melt ponds than bare ice.

New Query: "The interaction of ultraviolet light with Arctic sea ice during"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+inter … cc1286b88c

Pretty Good: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … e_and_Snow
Quote:

Ultraviolet Radiation and the Optical Properties of Sea Ice and Snow
January 2002
DOI:10.1007/978-3-642-56075-0_4
In book: UV Radiation and Arctic Ecosystems (pp.73-89)
Authors:
D. K. Perovich
Continued...........
Abstract
The continuing annual appearance of ozone holes in the Arctic and Antarctic results in recurring periods of enhanced incident ultraviolet irradiance at the earth’s surface. Indeed, a recent analysis of incident ultraviolet irradiance measured at Barrow, Alaska, from 1991 to 1995 demonstrates a continuing increase in ultraviolet light levels (Gurney 1998). Much of the area most affected by stratospheric ozone depletion is covered by a seasonal or perennial sea-ice cover, which is a productive ecological habitat. To determine the impact of enhanced incident ultraviolet irradiance on this habitat, an understanding of the interaction of ultraviolet light with snow and sea ice is required
Continued..........
to the same study, at Barrow, Alaska, surface UV irradiance can be enhanced by up to 57% by the high surface albedo due to snow cover. The sea ice prevents a large fraction of ultraviolet (UV) radiation from reaching the ocean surface [Lei et al., 2012;Perovich, 2006;Perovich et al., 1998] and even a few centimeters of snow block, practically all the incident UV-B radiation from penetrating into the ocean [Perovich, 2002;Winther et al., 2004]. ...
... The UV-B irradiance under the ice was derived as the product of the sea ice transmittance calculated for each model and the corresponding simulation of UV-B irradiance over the ice. According to Perovich [2002], 8 cm of snow is enough to block more than 99% of the UV-B radiation reaching the ocean's surface beneath the ice. Similarly, Winther et al. [2004] suggested that 10 cm of snow above 60 cm of first year Arctic ice blocks 99.6% of the incident UV-B irradiance. ...
... For thicker ice or snow, the fraction of UV-B irradiance that reaches the water may be less than 10 À6 [Perovich, 2006]. Usually, the reflectivity of snow-covered areas in the Arctic exceeds 0.8 [Allison et al., 1993;Lei et al., 2012;Perovich, 2002;Perovich et al., 1998], while the reflectivity of bare ice is smaller: It is close to 0.6 for bare melting ice and decreases as ice gradually transforms to melting pond [Perovich, 2002;Perovich et al., 2002]. However, for the fraction of a grid cell without ice, all the incident radiation reaches the water surface. ...

+4
Projected changes in solar UV radiation in the Arctic and sub-Arctic Oceans: Effects from changes in reflectivity, ice transmittance, clouds, and ozone
Continued..........
... Melt ponds are a dominant feature on the Arctic sea ice surface in summer, occupying up to about 50-60% of the sea ice surface during advanced melt (Fetterer and Untersteiner, 1998;Perovich et al., 2002;Eicken et al., 2004). Melt ponds normally begin to form around mid-May in the marginal ice zone and expand northwards as the summer melt season progresses (Fetterer and Untersteiner, 1998). ...
... Measurements were collected with an Analytical Spectral Device -Field Spectrometer equipped with a remote cosine receptor to diffuse light and set to report the average of 10 instrument measurements. Along with the instrument average, the reported value is the average ratio of three observational measurements of downwelling and upwelling solar radiation (Perovich, 2002). The total of each spectral type (#) are snow on sea ice (17), bare ice (3), open melt pond (6), refreezing melt pond (4), rough frozen melt pond (4) and smooth frozen melt pond (9). ...

Continued..........
... Snow and ice located in the polar zones are subjected to continuous light during the summer, while alpine ecosystems are exposed to high light levels due to altitude. The optical properties of snow and ice are intimately related to their physical structure (air, water and dust content), but generally snow and ice are highly scattering media with a highly reflective surface (high albedo) [50]. Due to recent ozone depletion, polar regions have been subjected to increased UV exposure. ...
... These photochemically-induced reactions may result in the accumulation of reactive species within the snowpack, and thus a hyper-oxidative stressed habitat. However, UV-B transmittance is efficiently attenuated by the snow (e.g., measured levels are one order of magnitude lower at a depth of 8 cm [50], thus protecting underlying communities [53]). Uncovered sea-ice has been shown to be an efficient medium for photochemical reactions, with 85% occurring in the first meter of the sea-ice column [54]. ...

Snow and ice ecosystems: Not so extreme

Continued..........
turnover time values are prolonged to 32-64 d considering that cloudiness reduces surface irradiance by~30% in the Arctic (Xie et al., 2009) and that 1-d insolation is equivalent to~6-h noontime insolation. Note that these estimates are likely lower limits, since measured transmittances in that area under similar snow and ice conditions (Ehn et al., 2008) are an order of magnitude lower than those employed in our model, which are obtained from the studies of Perovich (1995Perovich ( , 2002. Therefore, even a fairly low MAA production is sufficient to maintain significant levels of these compounds in bottom ice. ...
... Therefore, even a fairly low MAA production is sufficient to maintain significant levels of these compounds in bottom ice. However, snow and ice melting and formation of melt ponds in late spring dramatically diminish the surface albedo (Perovich, 2002;Ehn et al., 2008), allowing much greater UV radiation penetration (Belzile et al., 2000) and thereby ushering a rapid turnover of the MAAs. It is expected that the fast decay renders the MAAs to provide little UV photoprotection to ice algae at the melting stage which synchronizes the end of the algal bloom (Fig. 3). ...
Chromophoric dissolved organic matter (CDOM) in first-year sea ice in the western Canadian Arctic
Article
Oct 2014MAR CHEM
Huixiang Xie
Cyril Aubry
Yong ZHANG
Guisheng Song
View

Continued..........

The interaction of ultraviolet light with Arctic sea ice during SHEBA
Article
Nov 2006
Donald K. Perovich
View
Show abstract
... The thermodynamics, growth rate and microstructure of the underlying ice (as an efficient insulator), thereby affecting the temperature, salinity and permeability histories of the ice (Golden et al., 1998); The ice optical properties by regulating and greatly reducing the penetration of solar radiation (including harmful UV radiation and beneficial photosynthetically-available radiation [PAR]) into the ice and underlying ocean (Perovich, 2001); Maintaining the sea ice cover (by virtue of the important ice/snow-albedo feedback mechanism); and Extensive flooding of the sea ice surface by loading and depressing the surface below sea level. Such flooding not only leads to widespread ice formation at the sea ice surface in the form of "snow-ice" (Maksym and Markus, 2008) but also again brings nutrients and organisms up to the surface and affects algal dynamics in the ice (Fritsen et al., 1998). ...
... A reduction of light penetration into the sea ice/ upper ocean and photosynthetically-available radiation (negative), but also reduction of effects of harmful UV radiation on ice algae given that snow is particularly effective at reducing UV transmittance (Perovich, 2001) (positive); Creation and maintenance of a warmer sea ice cover (due to the strong insulative properties of the snow), leading to increased permeability and vertical transport of nutrients and biological material through the ice column (positive); Increased ice-surface flooding (associated with increased ice temperature/permeability and snow loading), leading to more extensive surface communities and greater snow-ice formation (with the latter possibly compensating ice basal melting (Wu et al., 1999b;Maksym and Markus, 2008)) (positive, but also possibly negative given the unavailability of surface algae to krill until the ice breaks up/is pulverised by wave action and the decreasing light levels noted above); Fewer nesting sites for Adélie penguins, plus the possible impact of greater frequency of snow accumulation, blizzards and snow melt on egg/ chick survival (Bricher et al., 2008;Ducklow et al., 2007;Massom et al., 2006) (negative e this could also be a factor for breeding Emperor penguins); A delay in summer melt due to the presence of a thicker insulative, high-albedo blanket of snow, leading to a possible increased duration of sea ice in certain regions (Eicken et al., 1995;Ledley, 1991) (positive); and An increase in freshwater flux into the ocean (directly and via seasonal ice melt) leading to increased stratification. This would lead to changes in thermohaline convection and deep water formation (with implications for global climate, CO 2 fluxes and ocean acidification); and reductions in the upward flux of heat for basal sea ice melt (with implications that sea ice seasonality and extent would increase, e.g. ...

+5
Antarctic sea ice change and variability – Physical and ecological implications
Full-text available
Article
Aug 2010
Rob Massom
S. Stammerjohn

Continued..........

I did not get it all, so there is more in there such as this quote:

... 90 One meter of fresh, thin sea ice transmits roughly 20% of the incident UV radiation, whereas cold first-year ice transmits less than 2%. Different layers within the ice, from very white interior ice to almost clear surface ice have different UV extinction coefficients [ , , ]. 89 94 Small changes in snow and ice depth can have an extreme influence on UV radiation. This effect is much stronger than that caused by usual changes in atmospheric parameters like or total ozone column [ ]. cloudiness 95 Nowadays, special consideration on the transmittance of ice and snow is needed in the context of climate change. ...

So, it appears that ice may be helpful in filtering out at least the wavelengths of UV received in the Arctic.

I am guessing it would work even better against shorter wavelength UV which may be present in the spectrum of the Mars surface solar flux.

Reference Materials Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 11:55:26)

Void · 2023-01-03 12:03:26

Well, I think I may have chased down the question of protective qualities of Ice and water concerning UV, at least in part. But the post is very wordy, and I want a short summary. Here is the wordy post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 01#p204701

It is actually the just prior post.

While ice and then water may be used to filter out damaging wavelengths, this does not prevent the use of supplemental protection methods as well.

Posts #738 to #741, include a "Capsules" method, which might allow UV screening in the windows of the capsules. This might allow the ice to be thinner or even absent. If it were absent, then this would allow Martian UV to steralize the water that the capsules floated in, to avoid the buildup of microbes on the Capsule's outsides.

And of course, over time other possibilities for non-capsule methods may be discovered to assist in filtering light for agricultural purposes.

Done.

Selected good items from the previous post: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … e_and_Snow

... According to the same study, at Barrow, Alaska, surface UV irradiance can be enhanced by up to 57% by the high surface albedo due to snow cover. The sea ice prevents a large fraction of ultraviolet (UV) radiation from reaching the ocean surface [Lei et al., 2012;Perovich, 2006;Perovich et al., 1998] and even a few centimeters of snow block, practically all the incident UV-B radiation from penetrating into the ocean [Perovich, 2002;Winther et al., 2004]. ...
... The UV-B irradiance under the ice was derived as the product of the sea ice transmittance calculated for each model and the corresponding simulation of UV-B irradiance over the ice. According to Perovich [2002], 8 cm of snow is enough to block more than 99% of the UV-B radiation reaching the ocean's surface beneath the ice. Similarly, Winther et al. [2004] suggested that 10 cm of snow above 60 cm of first year Arctic ice blocks 99.6% of the incident UV-B irradiance. ...

... Ice is a highly dispersive environment and reflects UV radiation; thus, the presence of an icy layer notably reduces the UV radiation incident on the liquid water of the ocean, and it has been demonstrated that sea ice acts as a photochemical microreactor, where 85% of the reactions are produced in the upper zone of the icewater column (King et al., 2005). Thus, in a dual manner, the freeze matrix might protect bioorganics from photodestruction and provide an ideal environment for the diversity of organics synthesized via photochemical reactions (Perovich, 2002). In addition, it has been proposed that salts could protect amino acids (McLaren and Shugar, 1964) and nucleobases (Cleaves and Miller, 1998) from photodegradation by UV radiation. ...

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 12:37:56)

Void · 2023-01-03 12:44:40

There is a snow storm, so I am staying home and doing this.

The question of what are the circumstances of UV light on the surface of Mars? (So, that can be better understood what has to be filtered out).

Query: "Ultra Violet light on the surface of Mars"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ultra+Vio … aab61ae30b

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … atmosphere.

Quote:

Ultraviolet (UV) radiation has wavelengths between that of visible violet light (400 nm) and X-rays (4 nm). However, the UV flux on the surface of Mars is significant only in the near (300– 400 nm) and far (200– 300 nm) UV because of absorption and scattering in the martian atmosphere.
Author: M.R. Patel, J.C. Zarnecki, D.C. Catling
Publish Year: 2002
Ar: 1.6%
CO 2: 95.32%
N 2: 2.7%

So, what is UV? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviol … ltraviolet
Quote:

Solar ultraviolet
Levels of ozone at various altitudes (DU/km) and blocking of different bands of ultraviolet radiation: In essence, all UVC is blocked by diatomic oxygen (100–200 nm) or by ozone (triatomic oxygen) (200–280 nm) in the atmosphere. The ozone layer then blocks most UVB. Meanwhile, UVA is hardly affected by ozone, and most of it reaches the ground. UVA makes up almost all UV light that penetrates the Earth's atmosphere.
Very hot objects emit UV radiation (see black-body radiation). The Sun emits ultraviolet radiation at all wavelengths, including the extreme ultraviolet where it crosses into X-rays at 10 nm. Extremely hot stars (such as O- and B-type) emit proportionally more UV radiation than the Sun. Sunlight in space at the top of Earth's atmosphere (see solar constant) is composed of about 50% infrared light, 40% visible light, and 10% ultraviolet light, for a total intensity of about 1400 W/m2 in vacuum.[22]
The atmosphere blocks about 77% of the Sun's UV, when the Sun is highest in the sky (at zenith), with absorption increasing at shorter UV wavelengths. At ground level with the sun at zenith, sunlight is 44% visible light, 3% ultraviolet, and the remainder infrared.[23][24] Of the ultraviolet radiation that reaches the Earth's surface, more than 95% is the longer wavelengths of UVA, with the small remainder UVB. Almost no UVC reaches the Earth's surface.[25] The fraction of UVB which remains in UV radiation after passing through the atmosphere is heavily dependent on cloud cover and atmospheric conditions. On "partly cloudy" days, patches of blue sky showing between clouds are also sources of (scattered) UVA and UVB, which are produced by Rayleigh scattering in the same way as the visible blue light from those parts of the sky. UVB also plays a major role in plant development, as it affects most of the plant hormones.[26] During total overcast, the amount of absorption due to clouds is heavily dependent on the thickness of the clouds and latitude, with no clear measurements correlating specific thickness and absorption of UVB.[27]
The shorter bands of UVC, as well as even more-energetic UV radiation produced by the Sun, are absorbed by oxygen and generate the ozone in the ozone layer when single oxygen atoms produced by UV photolysis of dioxygen react with more dioxygen. The ozone layer is especially important in blocking most UVB and the remaining part of UVC not already blocked by ordinary oxygen in air.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mgs/sci/fifthconf99/6128.pdf
Quote:

On present day Mars, the total integrated UV flux
over 200-400 nm, is comparable to the Earth’s. However, on Mars the shorter wavelengths contribute a
much greater proportion of this UV flux. These wavelength ranges, such as UVC (200-280 nm) and UVB
(280-315nm) are particularly biologically damaging

I am thinking that ice and water will have a tendency to block B and C UV rather well. But perhaps some of the longer wavelengths can better penetrate but might not be the most damaging.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 13:07:29)

Void · 2023-01-03 14:12:16

I am thinking of alternate schemes that interest me. Still to a large extent for farming. But also, the distilled water pathway can be of interest.

A water loop, where on occasion there is no ice, is just one possibility. In this case we might try to turn the propensity for water to boil at low pressure on Mars to an advantage, I would hope. The water to boil would be some variety with unspecified levels of salt in it.

In this case I am thinking a relatively shallow water depth.

The idea is quite simple put water in a tent, let the sunshine in, compress the resulting vapors into liquid water with a compression method.
To make it more complicated but produce "Air", we can put inverted glass bowls, on the bottom of the canal, to protect things that might grow. These bowls would need some kind of UV protection in the glass, perhaps.

OK, doing this query only frustrates me: "inverted glass bowl as greenhouse"

Well, I see that I have a blemish in the regolith below the canal, but I won't worry about it:

So, actually you might have a whole canal bottom with these inverted bowls that would hold extra heat, and also have UV protection. But th canal might freeze at times, and if it froze deeply then the bowls might be damaged. So, that has to be planned for. But you could boil water, or at least evaporate it using the Martian sunlight and near ambient pressures.

To plant and harvest a robot or even human would lift the bowls sequentially do the work and place them back.

The Canal could be relatively shallow. When the sun was shining you could both heat the water with solar and then perhaps run a compressor pump with solar electric.

To feed the plants you could pump Martian atmosphere into it in batches, and then allow the plants to produce an O2/N2/Argon mix in the water vapor atmosphere. As this was pumped out, the water would condense by compression, leaving a perhaps breathable mixture pressurized to use.

I will admit that it may be unusual plants that could be grown, but I would guess we could find something that could do it.

Maybe Reindeer Moss could be tried: https://www.quietearthmoss.com/preserve … properties.

http://tundrabiome8j.weebly.com/reindeer-moss.html

As food: https://www.reddit.com/r/Alonetv/commen … ve_values/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladonia_ … na#Habitat

I am having trouble confirming that it can grow underwater, but I believe it does.

The internet has become hard to do investigations for things like that as often the information you want is blocked by large masses of information not related to what you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nApo1KLXnWY

At any rate something else might do, and might grow faster. Good chances the inverted bowls would fill with Oxygen gas unless a vent was provided. Maybe that would work for some plants.

If you were not going to use the organic matter as food, you could put problematic wastes into this such as human sewage. You might have to have a robot clean the glass at times though. But then the distilled water could go into another canal as mentioned in a previous post, in that canal it could dissolve things from rocks specially selected to more normalize the water to human consumption.

Probably the first step for such waste would be Anaerobic digesters, though as that might produce Methane and also kill most parasites that may be emitted by the human body.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 15:12:48)

Void · 2023-01-03 15:05:19

The previous post is a sort of an example of multi-tenting, or multi-doming. This could allow some interesting things.
In multi-tenting or multi-doming, the upper waters might be discouraged from allowing light obscuring algae to grow, by various methods.

OK, this is not a work of art, but may convey the notion:

The lighter colored water may involve a thermal inversion that helps the darker blue water stay warmer.

If the lighter blue water is fresh, then it might keep the dark blue "Tent/Dome" above 39 degrees F even overnight, and maybe even though a major dust storm. (3.88888889 degrees C).

The green scribbles are intended to suggest Hydrilla growing. I have advocated for this plant before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

Due to things that might be done, to the internals of the Dark Blue secondary Tent/Dome, it may have a tendency to float in the Light Blue water, so it may be that regolith would be used to weigh it down.

Martian Atmosphere could be introduced into the Dark Blue enclosure with a batch method and the Hydrilla should change it into a more desirable mix of O2/N2/Argon.

If you want to grow Duckweed instead of Hydrilla, then you need a significant air bubble inside the dark blue enclosure.

If you want to grow rice, or other pond/patty plants that extend above water then even more bubble.

You might even do moist soil gardening, with even more bubble.

While the light blue water could be fresh, it might also be very still and have salt gradients so that it acts like a "Solar Pond", allowing for higher temperatures which might favor crops that do not like cool/cold nights.

The dark blue tent/dome might even be pressurized additionally using the tensile strength of the bag to elevate pressure higher than the water column pressure. This will allow being higher in the water column for better access to the sunlight.

Technically the Capsule method mentioned in previous posts is a Double tent/dome method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-03 15:50:21)

Void · 2023-01-03 19:38:29

So, if things are in part to be built of water and its other phases, I guess we want to have a catalog of where we think the water is and the nature of how it is.

So, I collected these references:

Very good description: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/mars-ice- … e-superior
It is likely that most deposits will somewhat resemble the description of this one:

Mars Ice Deposit Holds as Much Water as Lake Superior
Nov. 22, 2016

This vertically exaggerated view shows scalloped depressions in a part of Mars where such textures prompted researchers to check for buried ice, using ground-penetrating radar aboard NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.› Full image and caption Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/Univ. of Arizona

Frozen beneath cracked, pitted plains on Mars lies about as much water as is in Lake Superior, researchers using NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have determined.
Fast Facts:
› Water ice makes up half or more of an underground layer in a large region of Mars about halfway from the equator to the north pole.
› The amount of water in this deposit is about as much as in Lake Superior. It was assessed using a radar aboard a NASA spacecraft orbiting Mars.
› This research advances understanding about Mars' history and identifies a possible resource for future astronauts.
Frozen beneath a region of cracked and pitted plains on Mars lies about as much water as what's in Lake Superior, largest of the Great Lakes, researchers using NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have determined.
Scientists examined part of Mars' Utopia Planitia region, in the mid-northern latitudes, with the orbiter's ground-penetrating Shallow Radar (SHARAD) instrument. Analyses of data from more than 600 overhead passes with the onboard radar instrument reveal a deposit more extensive in area than the state of New Mexico. The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that's 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.
At the latitude of this deposit -- about halfway from the equator to the pole -- water ice cannot persist on the surface of Mars today. It sublimes into water vapor in the planet's thin, dry atmosphere. The Utopia deposit is shielded from the atmosphere by a soil covering estimated to be about 3 to 33 feet (1 to 10 meters) thick.
"This deposit probably formed as snowfall accumulating into an ice sheet mixed with dust during a period in Mars history when the planet's axis was more tilted than it is today," said Cassie Stuurman of the Institute for Geophysics at the University of Texas, Austin. She is the lead author of a report in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.
Mars today, with an axial tilt of 25 degrees, accumulates large amounts of water ice at the poles. In cycles lasting about 120,000 years, the tilt varies to nearly twice that much, heating the poles and driving ice to middle latitudes. Climate modeling and previous findings of buried, mid-latitude ice indicate that frozen water accumulates away from the poles during high-tilt periods.
Martian Water as a Future Resource
The name Utopia Planitia translates loosely as the "plains of paradise." The newly surveyed ice deposit spans latitudes from 39 to 49 degrees within the plains. It represents less than one percent of all known water ice on Mars, but it more than doubles the volume of thick, buried ice sheets known in the northern plains. Ice deposits close to the surface are being considered as a resource for astronauts.
"This deposit is probably more accessible than most water ice on Mars, because it is at a relatively low latitude and it lies in a flat, smooth area where landing a spacecraft would be easier than at some of the other areas with buried ice," said Jack Holt of the University of Texas, a co-author of the Utopia paper who is a SHARAD co-investigator and has previously used radar to study Martian ice in buried glaciers and the polar caps.
The Utopian water is all frozen now. If there were a melted layer -- which would be significant for the possibility of life on Mars -- it would have been evident in the radar scans. However, some melting can't be ruled out during different climate conditions when the planet's axis was more tilted. "Where water ice has been around for a long time, we just don't know whether there could have been enough liquid water at some point for supporting microbial life," Holt said.
Utopia Planitia is a basin with a diameter of about 2,050 miles (3,300 kilometers), resulting from a major impact early in Mars' history and subsequently filled. NASA sent the Viking 2 Lander to a site near the center of Utopia in 1976. The portion examined by Stuurman and colleagues lies southwest of that long-silent lander.
Use of the Italian-built SHARAD instrument for examining part of Utopia Planitia was prompted by Gordon Osinski at Western University in Ontario, Canada, a co-author of the study. For many years, he and other researchers have been intrigued by ground-surface patterns there such as polygonal cracking and rimless pits called scalloped depressions -- "like someone took an ice-cream scoop to the ground," said Stuurman, who started this project while a student at Western.
Clue from Canada
In the Canadian Arctic, similar landforms are indicative of ground ice, Osinski noted, "but there was an outstanding question as to whether any ice was still present at the Martian Utopia or whether it had been lost over the millions of years since the formation of these polygons and depressions."
The large volume of ice detected with SHARAD advances understanding about Mars' history and identifies a possible resource for future use.
"It's important to expand what we know about the distribution and quantity of Martian water," said Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter Deputy Project Scientist Leslie Tamppari, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California. "We know early Mars had enough liquid water on the surface for rivers and lakes. Where did it go? Much of it left the planet from the top of the atmosphere. Other missions have been examining that process. But there's also a large quantity that is now underground ice, and we want to keep learning more about that."
Joe Levy of the University of Texas, a co-author of the new study, said, "The ice deposits in Utopia Planitia aren't just an exploration resource, they're also one of the most accessible climate change records on Mars. We don't understand fully why ice has built up in some areas of the Martian surface and not in others. Sampling and using this ice with a future mission could help keep astronauts alive, while also helping them unlock the secrets of Martian ice ages."
SHARAD is one of six science instruments on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which began its prime science phase 10 years ago this month. The mission's longevity is enabling studies of features and active processes all around Mars, from subsurface to upper atmosphere. The Italian Space Agency provided the SHARAD instrument and Sapienza University of Rome leads its operations. The Planetary Science Institute, based in Tucson, Arizona, leads U.S. involvement in SHARAD. JPL, a division of Caltech in Pasadena, manages the orbiter mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. Lockheed Martin Space Systems of Denver built the spacecraft and supports its operations.
http://mars.nasa.gov
News Media Contact

Maps a bit better:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/mars-i … e-superior

https://www.planetary.org/articles/your … er-on-mars

Liquid Water:
https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/larg … e-of-mars/

Huge Water Reserves all over Mars:
https://earthnworld.com/scientists-disc … s-surface/

Old Ice Map does not show much for the rift valley:
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … y_marsice/

The Rift Valley Hydrogen: (Now we see it).
https://thedebrief.org/huge-water-depos … nd-canyon/
https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon

One thing that I think matters a lot is that many important mineral deposits likely are hidden under these ice deposits.

I may add references to this post in the future.

Done

Added this, on 1/4/2023: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 44#p204744

Added this, on 1/4/2023: https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … marswater/
Quote:

New Evidence for a Mars Water Reservoir

Image Quote: splash1.jpg?itok=qsc_mXp9

Added this, on 1/4/2023: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:

Gigantic Ice Slab Found on Mars Just Below the Planet's Surface
By Charles Q. Choi published September 10, 2015

Image Quote: y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-1024-80.jpg.webp

Added this, on 1/4/2023: Notions of water loss to space: https://phys.org/news/2019-05-mars.html

-----

Water as an eruption? Caliban added something good about the viscosity of brines: (His post is #763)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p204782
The trail that leads to his post starts at: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p204747 and continues to his post linked to just above here.

The idea of Fossil Ice in the rift valley:

https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5X13004145
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/O … dc3481cd74
This is very amusing at this point, they deminitely speak against glaciation in Candor Chaos: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3517308333
But then we get to this: https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … be%20water.
And this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/

01/14/2023: A very nice article about Hellas and ice: https://marspedia.org/Hellas_quadrangle

01/15 2023: Some notions of aquifers: https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/wate … ry-so-far/
A very nice picture: 182965main_tharsismontes_lgweb.jpg__1240x600_q85_subsampling-2.jpg

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-15 12:43:40)

Void · 2023-01-04 13:11:10

I don't wish this post to be wasted, so:

Try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
Quote:
Don Juan Pond
Frozen No
Settlements Vanda Station
(14 km to the east)
Don Juan Pond is a small and very shallow hypersaline lake in the western end of Wright Valley (South Fork), Victoria Land, Antarctica, 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) west from Lake Vanda. It is wedged between the Asgard Range to the south and the Dais Range to the north. On the west end is a small tributary and a rock glacier. With a salinity level of 33.8%, Don Juan Pond is the saltiest of the Antarctic lakes.[1][2] This salinity causes significant freezing-point depression, allowing the pond to remain liquid even at temperatures as low as −50 °C (−58 °F).
Don Juan Pond was discovered in 1961 by George H. Meyer. It was named for two helicopter pilots, Lt. Don Roe and Lt. John Hickey, who piloted the helicopter involved with the first field party investigating the pond.[2]
Life
Studies of lifeforms in the hypersaline (and/or brine) water of Don Juan Pond have been ambiguous.[7][8]
It is not covered with (The Sin Word)
It seems unlikely that it can support life for the water being so salty and so cold. That is a bit debatable.
It appears to be fed from an aquifer, and that aquifer water appears to be salty. Not unusual in the polar areas.
Chances for something like that on Mars?
Perhaps this will amuse you: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2334
If there are deep water tables on Mars, then two places where I might expect artesian springs would be the Hellas Depression and the Mariner Rift Valley.
https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/larg … e-of-mars/
Quote:
Large Reservoir of Liquid Water Found Deep Below the Surface of Mars
A reservoir of what could be water has been spotted beneath the South Pole of Mars.
Image Quote:
So, it is possible that this would charge an aquifer that might lead to Hellas.
As for the Mariner Rift Valley, sizable Hydrogen deposits are found in Candor Chaos of the Mariner Rift Valley.
I consider one possibility for the existence of such Hydrogen to be intense brine upwelling from cracks in the crust at the rift valley.
If it were essentially a dirty bumpy salt flat into which ground water percolates, then essentially it would be an artesian well(s), or if you like Cryovolcano. Cryovolcanic processes are associated with (The Sin Word), so we can say that it may be an artesian fed salt flat, although it is not really flat.
The problems with Don Juan Pond on Mars would be that even if it did not (The Sin Word), it would fill with air borne sediments, and would look like what the Candor Chaos region looks like.
https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … be%20water.
Quote:
Large Reservoir of Liquid Water Found Deep Below the Surface of Mars
A reservoir of what could be water has been spotted beneath the South Pole of Mars.
Image Quote:
There are often night fogs in the canyon, and in part that may be because of emissions of water vapor from such springs, (Maybe).
So, if this is the case, you may place your vapor barrier over the pond(s), and perhaps accumulate a pool of water, where dust does not choke it. Probably if the water is salt from the spring, then you need to put another "Bubble" in the water, and under the surface of the water of the first vapor barrier. Then if you exclude some of the salt from that secondary bubble, you might make conditions that sea life could grow in.
So, I stayed away from (The Sin Word).
If we discover that there is potential artesian water somewhere, perhaps it would be possible to disrupt (The Sin Word), and create and perpetuate artesian springs.
----
Salt springs in the Arctic:
https://nunatsiaq.com/stories/article/h … gh_arctic/
https://www.space.com/18485-mars-cold-s … -life.html
Quote:
Mars Ripe for 'Cold Springs' Akin to Canadian Arctic
By Elizabeth Howell published November 15, 2012
So, there are chances.
Done

The above was from: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 44#p204744

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 13:58:57)

Void · 2023-01-04 13:41:01

Continuing with the previous post, and unfettered.

It might be prudent to look for past evidence of liquids emitted from the ground.

Maybe: https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/26521/p … s-on-mars/

Cryovolcanic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryovolcano

It is just the way we think about Mars that water eruptions are not regarded as Cryovolcanic, even though it appears to require a source of heat to release the water eruptions that are supposed to have happened in the past.

The query: "Water eruptions on Mars", is more useful, it seems: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Water%20e … cc=0&ghpl=

OK, this link is a false lead. I was in a hurry. It dates from 2001 so if it were true we would have seen more about it.
I screwed up.
https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/wate … after-all/

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 19:31:00)

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