New Mars Forums

It sounds like they're gearing the MSO for one of three senerios: plan A: Atmospheric Science; plan P: Polar Studies; plan G: Geological Science.  Add to that the potential lander package...which of the 3 plans plan A favors a lander the least...largely due to competition with a radar sounder and various instruments.

If a lander's sent there sounds like there's huge interest in including a seismometer with it:

Apart from what little data can be squeezed from the orbiters, such as the discovery of a possible molten Martian core via analysis ofOdessey's orbit, the only way we could understand the Martian interior is sending some seismic equiptment.  People seem to be highly in favor of "oh let's find the water" but without knowing much about the geothermal properties of either modern or ancient Mars (and considering the sun was actually dimmer a few billion years back) you're missing a huge part of the equation.  I wonder if something Pathfinder-style with a few mini-probes could establish a network.

Hardly original.  They're obviously modeled after the Phoenix lander's own solar arrays.

Sadly many bad points GCNR points out.  Those ISS-sized structures have less than a snowball's chance of getting assembled on schedule especially w/o the STS in service; the Ares V could assemble chunks but it would require assembly more akin to Russia's modules with some autonomy involved.

Aerobraking wouldn't be bad to try out, but SEP or NEP will be another matter, especially the later of the two due to politics and fact we haven't flown a full-up nuclear reactor into space (those isotope batteries on space probes don't count).  The only time I see where SEP might be benificial is on the cargo side and on perhaps the return leg of a Martian crewed mission - possibly the transfer SEP module used on the cargo could be reused on the crew's return trip but that's debateable as opposed to a in situ chemically-fueled escape.

I would like to see more SEP myself but don't hold your breath for it in manned exploration.

That sounds good.  Given the LSAM's capability do you think it could be a counterpart to the Progress since the Orion cargo-block has been eliminated?

Agreed.  Even if its a dead world geologists find 'fossils' good ways to explore the past.

So is begging the Russians for a Progress and could be even better than an Orion cargo craft.

A hard decision for him to make, but yeah in the end the Orion is a crew vehicle through and through.

Another option remains and may be better than converting the Orion: the Ares V and LSAM.

Since the Ares V and LSAM are already specificed for cargo capability, and the LSAM has the capacity to be a heavy-duty cargo-fearing machine it might be easier to modify it as a disposable orbital vehicle...since it is already designed to be just that...with legs. 

Question would be whether or not its worthwhile to use it for faring stuff to the space station; obviously it'll be expensive...on the other hand a single launch could likely keep the ISS supplied for a full year which saves cost on multiple disposable mini-trips ala Progress.

Can anyone crunch some numbers on this?

=http://www.spaceblogger.com/reports/Go … ce Clipper from Space Blogger, aka Europa sample return ala Deep Impact.

This sounds like an interesting concept daring enough to work.  Given the fiasco of JIMO and the Europa Orbiter a sample return mission would seem unspeakable, at least at first glance.

How much merit does this concept have?  Given how Lunar Prospector tried this same trick at the expense of the whole craft and yielding nadda...would a probe going even faster on a world whose crust is ironically pure ice have any better luck?  Thanks to Deep Impact whose tech seems to be the basis of this concept we now know it IS possible to blow chunks of comets into orbit but what of something planetary mass?

I think its worth a study at the very least, and the mission itself would be complex.

I agree there, and coupled with that I still can't help but think of solar sails as giant tissue paper in the face of meteors; heck the solar wind (and yes I'm aware solar sails have nothing to do with it) or radiation might have an effect on the plastic material.

I don't think it'd hurt to test the idea, after all we did that with ion engines, but like its xeon-powered counterpart I imagine even at best solar sails will only have a use for lightweight probes.

I agree Cyclops.  NASA is going to be very very tight for a long while - it is supporting two manned spaceflight programs right now between the STS and Constellation, three if you count the ISS.  Coupled with a war causing Congress and the White House to focus their attentions elsewhere what can you honestly expect?

I think things may improve comes 2010 once STS' budget becomes channeled straight to Constellation.

They are using the LSAM because of the higher efficency of its LO2/H2 decent stage.  Its just a matter of chosing the best SPI for the job, and even if they were using the LO2/Methane option it has a lower SPI than hydrogen despite any fueling advantages from Mars.

Considering how each mission is likely to be dominated by one specific landing site I don't see why this is a problem, and given the advantages Shakelton crater is offering NASA won't idly delete the polar orbit capability.  If anyone squawks for a 'hopper' mission well that's more likely to be a modified lander that'd be sent and operated w/o a CEV - purely a side-option that'd be available only after at least LO2 production is established.

The CEV is basically an orbital vehicle brought along for the ride - it'll be versatile but its only true importance is the Earth return.  I'm not going to waste my breath (or text) flailing around about it.  Wake me when they're starting the specifications for LSAM...THEN we have issues to debate.

Regarding that H2O evaporation...likely as it is no one has actually gathered concrete evidence if it really happens.  Yes UV light splits water up but theory and proof can be worlds apart.

MAVEN and MARVEL, the Discovery Program projects NASA is funding and will chose for the next Mars Scout mission will both focus on the Martian atmosphere.  Depending on what they kind...and also what New Horizon finds about Pluto's atmosphere and its even flimbsier atmosphere, we can make better deductions about what became of the Martian vapors.

Given the Martian physical features and comparing them to Earth with its ocean floor...yeah I agree the Northern Hemisphere must have once been drenched in water once.  Given that water flows to the lowest spot...hey where else will it drain to aside from Hellas in the south?