New Mars Forums

So, can we perhaps consider if we are about to enter a "Space-Iron-Age"?

Iron being relatively easy to be had, and of many uses.

I have that Chicken-Wire could allow us to bundle correct sized stones into useful objects.

We might make Iron and Steel metal works that would allow us to bond large pieces of natural stone together for a purpose.
Also created "Stones" might be bonded in a similar fashion.

Iron and associated materials might be made into propellants for:
-Mass Drivers
-Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/
-MagDrive.: https://magdrive.space/?trk=organizatio … pdate-text

But now, what about a on board Mass Driver?

Well, Iron can be magnetic.  So, it could be shot out of a Mass Driver.  At the same time though we do not want to clutter the space-ways with collision hazards.

Magnetite dust might work, I am not sure though if we want it magnetized, We do not want clumps of dust that persist as objects.  We want the dust to disperse, and be carried on the solar wind.

Magnetite has a bit of Oxygen in it so we then turn it into a propellant as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Quote: (See the actual formula in the source above):

But now, what if we make "Mini-Comet" ice bullets?

The Ice could be various types, but I do not want to use water, it is too valuable.  CO2, "Dry Ice" may do though.

So, now if we mix Magnetite Powder with Dry Ice, we might shoot it out of a mass driver and it may well evaporate explosively in the sunlight, dispersing the mass of the "Comet-Bullets".

The CO2 is more Oxygen and some Carbon of course.

We hope we will get Carbon from Phobos and Deimos.

We expect that we will get Iron and Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos.

Do, Phobos and Deimos have Carbon in them?
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 009085.pdf
Quote:

This has been somewhat disputed by a space probe of an Arab nation.  So, we don't know for sure.  But Mars certainly has Carbon.
And so do many asteroids.

Other than the dispersal methods I have mentioned, The direction and speed of the bullets may matter.

If they impinge on an atmosphere, then they will burn up.  That could work for Mars if the bullets are fired retrograde.
Also, if the bullets are given sufficient speed they may leave the solar system.

Finally it may be useful to fire them slightly above or below (Alternately), the plane that spacecraft are probable to travel in.

So, we have some good options, I think.

Particularly if our power is going to be beamed to the ship that is expelling mass from a relatively stationary power satellite.

So, A SPACE IRON AGE!

Ending Pending

So, I am presuming that in dealing with rubble piles we are likely to encounter various sized rubble.  Dust is apparent and boulders are present.  Massive slabs of rock are expected by me.

But an interesting construction technique in the orbits of Mars and on rubble-piles is to collect "Cobbles" into "Chicken-Wire-Nets".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobble_%28geology%29
Image Quote:

Our cobbles from Phobos and Deimos will likely not be round.  However, they will likely be possible to manipulate with Callibans tool, the enclosed shovel with robotic arm.  While eventually the "Chicken-Wire-Nets" can be manufactured on site, I expect that for some time, they will be an import from Earth/Moon.

For the most part if handled with care cobbles can likely be contained in "Chicken-Wire-Nets" in the feeble gravity environments of Phobos and Deimos, and in microgravity.  However of course should there be an explosion, they could become a navigation hazard.  So as in almost every technological endeavor, there will be "Best Practices".

So, as the "Jar" is dug, a roof could possibly be created by using iron fixtures and imported Chicken Wire, and putting cobbles into the nets created.  This then to be assistive in creating a void in a jar, relatively protected from radiation, impactors, and thermal fluctuations.

So, previously I anticipated creating sinter and glass objects and linking them with simple iron fixtures created on site.  But this is new, possibly useful option as well.

As for giant slabs presumed to be in the interior, I am anticipating putting in connecting members and clearing them of rubble, and maybe walling them off with some sort of metal webs, and even jacking them away from each other to create larger internal voids, to put things into.  We need to discover the internal reality of the moons and other ruble piles.

A bit of progress found in this post, I think.

Ending Pending

Make what you will of this!!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1O1JzN
Quote:

If it has life, then that is a fantastic thing to study.

If not, or possibly if it is from Pan Shermia between worlds, possibly a great place to set up camp, after all.

Diluted Sulfuric Acid is much better than concentrated Sulfuric Acid.

Have we been being "Gas Lighted" about both the Moon and Venus?

Ending Pending

The problem appears to be on New Mars, as I am able to play this video at normal speeds on my computer: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
When initiated from the New Mars site it also seems to play at an OK speed.

But the site is very bogged down.

I will attempt to finish my posting at a later time.

Thank You for stopping by and commenting (th).

I expect that for any rubble pile Iron bonded with Oxygen is a likelihood.  Some magnetic Iron is also likely.

I appreciate that Starship is using ability to travel to Mars directly from LEO as a goal that helps specify its characteristics.  Apparently, the nature of it that this creates is at least somewhat compatible with other solar system objectives.

But we can expect that various kinds of electric propulsions will be more emergent over time.  This could lead to a situation where products shipped from Earth/Moon and elsewhere could be in collaboration with products that could be more completed on the moons of Mars. 

As it happens also, products like Iron which might be produced on these moons may serve as propellants for electric driven processes such as On-Board rocket mass drivers, or MagDrive or Neumann Drive.

It also seems that at the same time power beaming methods will emerge where power plant which will largely not be changing its inertia can transmit power to a transportation device that will be changing its inertia.

So, an electric driven inertia and orbit change device could achieve capture to a temporary high Mars orbit using Ballistic Capture methods, and then immediately begin receiving energy transfers to it from power stations in orbit of Mars.  Arriving to Deimos it could then take on more propellants such as Iron, and the by similar means drop orbit down to Phobos and take on more Iron and probably deliver products and receive products.

While Phobos is most likely to produce bulk items like Iron, maybe Aluminum, and Oxygen, minority items such as to make alloys, might be brought from Earth/Moon.  The machinery to be used on Mars or Phobos and Deimos could be produced by various methods, perhaps including 3D printing.

The same electric propulsion, perhaps including the use of Iron as propellant, could lower a Starship refilled with LOX to a very low orbit so that it could begin air braking to land on Mars.

My computer is acting extremely slow, so I am not happy.  It maybe I am being somehow impeded in my efforts to communicate.

There are some things I would like to collect into this post.

I have my eye on the process that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaise is using to drill.
Quote:

So, it is difficult to figure out how to grind rocks as we often do in mining here on Earth, but this process might take apart rocks and conduct pyrolysis at the same time.

NASA has been looking at building with glass on the Moon:
https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/stmd/ … w-gravity/  Image Quote:

https://www.universetoday.com/articles/ … n-the-moon

So, sinter and glass could be two ways to treat "Slag" and make it useful.

The easy things to remove from the regolith seem to be Hydrogen and Iron.  Carbon and other volatiles perhaps less so.  Oxygen can relatively easily be removed from Iron oxides and from water.

If we can make glass parts for an enclosure can we put bands of tensile materials around it?  Perhaps some type of simple steel?

Then can a balloon be inflated inside of it?  Of Poly or even an Aluminum balloon?

According to Anthrofuturism, lasers could be used to "Distill" substances other than Iron, Hydrogen, and Oxygen.

Also though laser 3D printers may help to make structures from various materials.

Ending Pending

Obviously once human activity is in proximity of ice worlds this plan could work well.

Exceptional Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

Most of these are volatile, including water bearing.  Being labeled G or C or B in type.  But there is some evidence now that at least some stony asteroids will have water in them in some form.

Using concentrating mirrors to provide the hot side of Biocompatible Heat Engines should be rather easy in the asteroid belt.

In the Trojans and Greeks and the moons of Jupiter, mirrors could also work, but would need to be bigger.

Going to the Saturn system mirrors should even then work but of course they have to be big.  Obviously, the Saturn system will have the advantage of the resources of it's moons including Titan which would include a lot of Nitrogen.

So, if it could be made to work then an enormous amount of electrical power generation and also biological productivity.

Adding the Laser power transfer methods of this post from elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 09#p234709
A network of space propulsion pathways among these should be practical.

Ending Pending

It is my opinion that it could be that SpaceX, and others may end up lifting water and Carbon from Earth to space stations where it can be cooked into propellants.

The water can serve as radiation shielding and/or a method of aquiculture in orbit.  The Carbon could also serve as radiation shielding.
It may be that eventually Oxygen will be brought to LEO from the moon, maybe from NEA's.

So, the water and Carbon could be "Cooked" into propellants at a "Just In Time Rate".

I think that most people don't comprehend how much in the way of space station mass Starship could establish in LEO and higher orbits.

The "Stubby Starship" makes sense.

The booster for Lunar Injection could be filled and put into a "Freezer" to avoid boiloff.  Then the Stubby brought up to orbit and filled and then a crew could be installed into a "Stack".

To me this will make more sense than to do 6 to 7 refills to the Stubby of Methane and Oxygen.  Both water and Carbon will be much easier to store than a bulk of Methane and Oxygen stored during filling.

Of course until the space stations for this are established, it would be directly Methane and Oxygen.

If electric propulsions were to prove effective it might be that eventually Water and Carbon might be obtained from other sources than Earth.

Anyway, it might drift in the direction I have suggested.

We also have the possibility of direct cooked propulsions from Water.

From post #182:

To me this indicates that you could "Directly Cook" a propulsion method. 

Steam is one possibility.  While it is not the most efficient, it might reduce on board mass will allowing water to protect humans and machines.

Direct cooking of Hydrogen and Oxygen from water.  You would have a big water tank and a small Hydro Lox engine.  You could cook up your propellants in small quantities and burn them.  You avoid boil off issues and have radiation shielding while water is on board.

So there would be a large number of solar power plants in orbits, that could send power to these vehicles with lasers.  So, you are not dragging the large inertia of large solar panels to differing orbits.  And your tanks may be just water tanks, so perhaps not as heavy as for Methane, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Etc.

As for "Electric Ion Rockets", Argon-Xenon are said to be good.  Also, we may hope that Neumann Drive and Magdrive can run on things like metals and Carbon as propellants.

This apparently will probably work as a network for the Earth/Moon solar subsystem.

Ending Pending

Here I have changed the idea of a biocompatible heat engine a bit:

The "Light Splitting Window" allows more of the spectrum of the sunlight to impinge on the cone shaped "Boiler".

The window is a cylinder that will experience "Compression" as the "Outside" of the cylinder window is interior to the pressurized space, and the inside of the cylinder window is exposed to the "Greater Partial Vacuum" of the space environment.

The light is expected to come from a optical system of mirrors, or perhaps lenses, not shown in the drawing.

The window could be of two layers.  A compressible layer of transparent ceramic/glass/Silica?, with a transparent film wrapped around it.

As this is a "Compression Window", the differential pressure does not threaten to push the window out of its window frame, but actually may tend to compress the joins between "Glass" panes so then more to seal it.

The window itself may get heated up so a method to extract that heat, perhaps with piping and a fluid might be desired.

The objective would be to get as much raw sunlight as is useful to heat the boiler, but to hopefully be able to reflect photons that can drive photosynthesis to be deflected/reflected into the radiator.

I have speculated that some types of extreme microbes might be able to function in a pressure as low as 10 millibars, but I do not know if that is true.  I think that 50 millibars may do and certainly 100 millibars will do.

Certainly, the higher pressure used the more challenged the window will be, but the higher the life forms that could be sustained would be, up to humans perhaps.

Food for creative thought, I venture.

Ending Pending

It may be that at some point Starships might bring water and Dry Ice up from Earth or other worlds to be processed into Oxygen and Organic matter.  Then the organic matter could be processed into other things, perhaps fuels.

Ending Pending

In the prior post, it seems Europe is interested in a Mini-Starship.

They should think to contract with SpaceX to build a factory in Europe for the mass production of such.

Ending Pending

This is good.  Put some of the responsibility onto Blue Origin.

Probably it would be good to have a minimized human lander as speculated on for MK-1?

It is actually somewhat idiotic to land the Lunar Starship and then use it to lift humans to Lunar orbit and then abandon it.  It can be done but it is Totally Stupid!

Once it is on the Lunar Surface it can be made into a shelter using Lunar resources.  So, if you have a heavy delivery of cargo with Lunar Starships, and have a minimized lander/launcher transport for humans, at that point the Orion Capsule has some good use.

But eventually an upgraded Dragon that could be used, can be launched to orbits by less costly means would make sense.

The Stubby Starship concept could have merit.

From my point of view, a Starship could be created where you leave the Cargo/Cabin in LEO, to become Space Station structure, and the "Locomotive" could have a small Dragon Based, cabin put on to it, then that could be used for transit directly from LEO to the Moons surface.  Then that could be used to transfer humans back to Lunar Orbit.

This could strongly reduce the number of fills needed to access the Moon.

You just add more consumables.  The attached Dragon might have a heat shield, but maybe better not to do that but to have a Dragon or Orion in Lunar orbit for the return to Earth.

It really is totally wrong for NASA and others to use SpaceX as their whipping boy, when much of the fault lies with them for hot thinking this though better before this.  SpaceX is the one that is more on the ball than is Blue Origin.  Not that I fault Blue Origin though.  I bless them for their efforts as well.

Ending Pending

A Dragon-Starship Hybrid method:

While in orbit during a solar flare it should be possible to point the Locomotive at the sun to try to protect the humans in the Dragon.

Ending Pending

One reason I have gone into the idea of "Habitable Heat Engines", is that for orbits of Mars, the capacity to grow things with photosynthesis might be useful.

If you were to conduct pyrolysis of the materials of Phobos or Deimos using Carbon or Hydrogen, the results should be some mix of H20 and CO2.  Then if you put that into a greenhouse, that can be converted to Oxygen and Organic Matter.  Organic Matter then can be mixed with more regolith from Phobos and Deimos, and around you can go again.

I understand that you could use electrolysis to produce O2, CO and then make Methane by various processes, but with this machine, you can take this other route, and have places where humans might dwell as well.

The solar energy for the process is better in orbit than on the surface of Mars, but then if you are in orbit where will you house the processor, the robots, and the humans?  How will you feed the humans.

The drawings I have provided suggest possibility but I do not think that they are yet proven or perfected.

I think that probably the hot side will end up being much hotter than 100 degrees C.  But some care will be needed to have tricks that do not cause heat to migrate to the cooling water by way of Infared Radiation.

I do show a glaze over the hot side metal drum which will need a pigment set that mostly only reflects the light that plants want.

As I understand it that is some of the red and some of the blue and not the UV or Green or far Infared.  The desire would be to block those from reflecting from the boiler to the cool water.

There are 2 layers of transparency and the color scheme of the boiler surface.

The air pressure in use will have some effect as the closer to a vacuum you get, the less heat is transferred by convection.

While higher pressure versions could be nice for people, lower pressure ones may be more productive and easier to keep inflated.  Differential pressure on windows would be less.

It is a fairly tall order, but maybe it can be done reasonably well.

Pressures less than 1/3 bar would have very little Nitrogen, but for humans a 2/3 bar pressure would need some Nitrogen or maybe Argon.

Ending Pending