Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar

Void · 2025-10-06 13:14:49

I begin with Phobos and Deimos as the initial targets, but do not exclude other rubble piles.

Although the "Jar" could be smaller, I will begin with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere
Quote:

500 meters (1,600 feet)
The Island One space habitat, also known as the Bernal sphere, is designed to simulate artificial gravity. It has a diameter of 500 meters (1,600 feet) and is capable of supporting a population of approximately 10,000 people. This habitat is designed to provide living and recreational space, with a Crystal Palace habitat for agriculture and sunlight provided through external mirrors.
Wikipedia

Probably smaller synthetic gravity devices could be made from a collection of Starships though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … -on-phobos
Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
1 meter deep
The dust layer on Phobos is estimated to be at least 1 meter deep, with some sources suggesting it could be as thick as 100 meters. This fine powder layer is primarily formed from impacts over millions of years, and it covers the entire surface of Phobos, which is one of the two moons of Mars.
Stack Exchange
+5

OK, so presuming that it will be radar mapped, and perhaps probed with a dip stick, a site will be selected, likely near a rotational pole.

Using a heating source like microwaves, an initial ring will be created in the surface materials.

https://interestingengineering.com/scie … g-the-moon
Quote:

Microwaving the moon may be best for landing spacecraft, propose scientists
Scientists analyze best ways to build spacecraft landing pads on the moon and propose melting lunar soil with microwaves as the most cost-effective method.
Published: Dec 21, 2022 10:47 AM EST
Photo of the Author Paul Ratner
Paul Ratner

Since I am presumed to be a Dum Dum, I will use a calculator: https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/circumference

500 meters diameter>1570.796 Circumference. But we may want it a bit larger than that.

For Dum Dum's 5154.19948 feet it seems, so substantial.

So, to melt/sinter a ring of rock from surface regolith. So that will be rather a ceramic like substance I expect. It would be nice if we could put some kind of tensile band on top of it. Iron might be possible perhaps somehow anchored into the rock ring. It might be possible to use it as a rail to navigate a device around like a track.

The ring would be of a substantial weight, even in the feeble gravity of Phobos.

If this initial ring can be established, then I think to borrow from some of Calibans concepts and some of my own from a different topic.
This topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p234719
"Index» Terraformation» Space Habitat Networks"
Post #26 from that topic, Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,196
Email
I have occasionally wondered about the potential for a small asteroid mining vehicle. This would target NEAs <10m in diameter. Such bodies would be completely disassembled. Useful metals and volatiles would be extracted. The remaining slag would be a mixture of iron, magnesia and aluminosilicates. These could be used as propellant by heating them into plasma with radio frequency heating. Small vehicles equipped with solar electric propulsion working on this principle, could ship the valuable materials back to high Earth orbit. The same propulsion tech would then be used to shift the orbit of the asteroid mining vessel to intercept the next NEA.
We have examined how we would mine such objects in previous work. One method would be to surround the body with a rotating ring. The ring would carry a set of arms equipped with enclosing shovels. These would grab chunks of surface material and drop it down chutes also mounted on the ring. The whole arrangement would be enclosed in a thin polymer bag to prevent loose material from escaping and contaminating the local space. The chutes would empty into ore processing. How we seperate recovered materials into useful elements needs more consideration.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 07:35:04)

So there are other tools mentioned in that topic also but let begin with the enclosing shovels. These and other tools can be dependent for anchoring on the rock ring that was created.

In this post from that topic more tools are on offer: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 85#p234585

So with the collection of tools, we may extract Oxygen, Hydrogen (If present), Carbon (If present), Iron, and leave a remainder of a "Slag" that can be pasted on to the ring we already made.

Processing the materials inside of the ring we may dig a hole make these materials and extend the walls of the "Jar" downwards. We may also make a "Lid" on the jar, with doors.

I think that when the jar is sufficiently completed, we may find very thin amounts of Hydrogen and Helium in the interior of the "Jar".

The moon is apparently porous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Phobos_(moon)
Phobos (moon) - Wikipedia
Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity. [23][24][25] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice.

OK it would probably be wonderful if Phobos had ice in it but I am presuming that it does not. However, I speculate that it may be permeable to Hydrogen and Helium in the solar wind. (And Protons perhaps). While the solar wind moves fast, I speculate that these molecules will have been stilled to some extent.

If we release Oxygen while processing regolith in the Jar, and we provide a hot catalyst, it may be that water would be formed. If we then provide a cold trap, we might capture the water molecules. I do not expect a dense abundance of the molecules but rather a molecular flow environment.

By the time the "Jar" has a lid on it, doing any form of sintering inside the Jar, or Pyrolysis, will release some Oxygen, and we hope some Carbon. From Anthrofuturism, it seems that if we do repeated Pyrolysis, we will not lose Hydrogen but can reuse it repeatedly. In fact we may gain Hydrogen if the process captures it from solar wind products or if there was some Hydrogen in the rock.

At some point the "Jar" may become large enough that we can bring Starships in though doors in the lid and set up synthetic gravity inside of it.

Probably sintered trackways could extend from the "Jar" perhaps to all surfaces of the little world.

So, possibly this is approaching a method to work with rubble piles about the size of Phobos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-06 14:08:56)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 06:20:58

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.

The vision laid out in Post #1 would appear to be applicable to a great number of objects in the Solar System and elsewhere.

As it happens, other writers have been thinking about making habitats out of objects orbiting outside the Orbits of the inner planets.

Not ONE of the authors I have seen so far have had what it takes to plan actual ** work ** to be done. It appears to be easy to create a conceptual image with a few words. It is far more difficult to work out how the atoms that may exist in a particular object can be manipulated (with a plentiful supply of energy) to deliver a habitat for humans, complete with ** all ** the attributes we consider essential.

The work would begin with precise identification of the atoms available in a particular object. Then, what kind of a habitat might be constructed from this collection? In most cases, atoms not present in the object will have to be imported.

The work to be done includes identification of the atoms to be imported and their quantities, as well as locations where they can be procured.

The next step is to work out the procedures by which the project can proceed. Some activities must take place before others, and some activities can be carried out in parallel.

On Earth, we have a precedent for this kind of activity. There are companies that specialize in building subdivisions of large cities. We have other companies that are able to create entire running cities on vacant land. I am thinking (of course) of military situations, but something similar happens when natural or human caused disasters occur.

Index:

(th)

Void · Yesterday 10:15:31

Thank You for stopping by and commenting (th).

I expect that for any rubble pile Iron bonded with Oxygen is a likelihood. Some magnetic Iron is also likely.

I appreciate that Starship is using ability to travel to Mars directly from LEO as a goal that helps specify its characteristics. Apparently, the nature of it that this creates is at least somewhat compatible with other solar system objectives.

But we can expect that various kinds of electric propulsions will be more emergent over time. This could lead to a situation where products shipped from Earth/Moon and elsewhere could be in collaboration with products that could be more completed on the moons of Mars.

As it happens also, products like Iron which might be produced on these moons may serve as propellants for electric driven processes such as On-Board rocket mass drivers, or MagDrive or Neumann Drive.

It also seems that at the same time power beaming methods will emerge where power plant which will largely not be changing its inertia can transmit power to a transportation device that will be changing its inertia.

So, an electric driven inertia and orbit change device could achieve capture to a temporary high Mars orbit using Ballistic Capture methods, and then immediately begin receiving energy transfers to it from power stations in orbit of Mars. Arriving to Deimos it could then take on more propellants such as Iron, and the by similar means drop orbit down to Phobos and take on more Iron and probably deliver products and receive products.

While Phobos is most likely to produce bulk items like Iron, maybe Aluminum, and Oxygen, minority items such as to make alloys, might be brought from Earth/Moon. The machinery to be used on Mars or Phobos and Deimos could be produced by various methods, perhaps including 3D printing.

The same electric propulsion, perhaps including the use of Iron as propellant, could lower a Starship refilled with LOX to a very low orbit so that it could begin air braking to land on Mars.

My computer is acting extremely slow, so I am not happy. It maybe I am being somehow impeded in my efforts to communicate.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 10:33:23)

Void · Yesterday 10:53:38

It is not possible to continue posting as this site is operating extremely slow.

Void · Yesterday 10:59:23

The problem appears to be on New Mars, as I am able to play this video at normal speeds on my computer: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
When initiated from the New Mars site it also seems to play at an OK speed.

But the site is very bogged down.

I will attempt to finish my posting at a later time.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:03:11)

Void · Yesterday 12:00:29

Ok it might be better. I ran into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qobvNGc_LQ
Quote:

FLOAT: Low Maintenance Lunar Cargo Transportation System with Magnetic Levitation
Space Startup News

Seems like something similar might be good for rubble pile worlds, and habitat mega structures.

I have personal things to do so I will resume later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 12:02:12)

Void · Yesterday 14:23:16

Well, we can see how this goes. Here is a transplant from another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p234645 Quote:

I believe that this is going to be massively important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0tMViyxxcw
Quote:
At 18 He Took On Space Energy! Satellites, Lasers & the Next Frontier
Over The Horizon
The basic notion is power plants in orbit that send laser power to spacecraft.

So, yes, to me it seems apparent that a laser beam power grid could link Deimos, Phobos, Mars and the rest of the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 14:25:31)

Void · Today 10:28:56

So, I am presuming that in dealing with rubble piles we are likely to encounter various sized rubble. Dust is apparent and boulders are present. Massive slabs of rock are expected by me.

But an interesting construction technique in the orbits of Mars and on rubble-piles is to collect "Cobbles" into "Chicken-Wire-Nets".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobble_%28geology%29
Image Quote:

Our cobbles from Phobos and Deimos will likely not be round. However, they will likely be possible to manipulate with Callibans tool, the enclosed shovel with robotic arm. While eventually the "Chicken-Wire-Nets" can be manufactured on site, I expect that for some time, they will be an import from Earth/Moon.

For the most part if handled with care cobbles can likely be contained in "Chicken-Wire-Nets" in the feeble gravity environments of Phobos and Deimos, and in microgravity. However of course should there be an explosion, they could become a navigation hazard. So as in almost every technological endeavor, there will be "Best Practices".

So, as the "Jar" is dug, a roof could possibly be created by using iron fixtures and imported Chicken Wire, and putting cobbles into the nets created. This then to be assistive in creating a void in a jar, relatively protected from radiation, impactors, and thermal fluctuations.

So, previously I anticipated creating sinter and glass objects and linking them with simple iron fixtures created on site. But this is new, possibly useful option as well.

As for giant slabs presumed to be in the interior, I am anticipating putting in connecting members and clearing them of rubble, and maybe walling them off with some sort of metal webs, and even jacking them away from each other to create larger internal voids, to put things into. We need to discover the internal reality of the moons and other ruble piles.

A bit of progress found in this post, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 10:41:08)

Void · Today 14:58:00

So "Dumb Bags of Rocks" may be of significant value in Space.

Lets imagine that this is a "Chicken Wire Dumb Bag of Grey Rocks" in microgravity:

We have a kinked pathway in, and this structure might provide protections from:
-Radiation
-Impactors
-Thermal Fluctuations.

We may attach power devices to this so that it can have electrical power. Solar devices or nuclear devices.

We may make an Igloo structure on Phobos and/or Deimos.

At some point a Stupid Bag of Rocks, becomes heavy enough even in the gravity of Phobos and Deimos, that you can use it for a fulcrum for mechanical attachments.

I do not intend these structures to hold air at all, in fact I do not want them to, as I do not want a rapid expansion of gas to blow them apart.

Along with "Chicken Wire" simple iron fixtures might be used, even small metal beams. Perhaps also some kind of cloth, maybe a beta cloth attached to the "Chicken Wire".

"Chicken Wire" is deformable but also can to a limited extent hold form.

Thank-you wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_wire
Image Quote:

So, in my mind Chicken Wire might be relatively light to transport to the Orbits of Mars, from Earh/Moon. And might be possible to manufacture from Phobos or Deimos, somewhere down the line. Keep in mind that Simple Steel Iron-Carbon, will not likely rust in the situation I have proposed.

We do not have to galvanize it for this purpose: Quote:

Thin, flexible, galvanized steel wire
Chicken wire, or poultry netting, is a mesh of wire commonly used to fence in fowl, such as chickens, in a run or coop. It is made of thin, flexible, galvanized steel wire with hexagonal gaps.
Chicken wire - Wikipedia
Wikipedia

So Wrought Iron suggests here other Iron forms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron
Quote:

Wrought iron is an iron alloy with a very low carbon content (less than 0.05%) in contrast to that of cast iron (2.1% to 4.5%), or 0.25% for low carbon "mild" steel. Wrought iron is manufactured by heating and melting high carbon cast iron in an open charcoal or coke hearth or furnace in a process known as puddling. The high temperatures cause the excess carbon to oxidise, the iron being stirred or puddled during the process in order to achieve this. As the carbon content reduces, the melting point of the iron increases, ultimately to a level which is higher than can be achieved by the hearth, hence the wrought iron is never fully molten and many impurities remain.

So, we might value "low Carbon "mild" Steel" the most: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/meta … 719e2f6ea5

Wire: https://www.asiametalltd.com/news/Low-C … rview.html
Image Quote:

I am thinking that with a Carbon or Hydrogen Pyrolysis process done on the fines, we could extract Iron and Oxygen, at least and then make Steel Suitable for wire and that wire can be formed into a matrix like Chicken-Wire, to stuff correct sized rocks into, to make shelters in low g environments.

Then we can put space stations inside of those.

Space stations of Starships, and like those of "Vast Space" and others, including inflatables as well.

Pretty good, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 15:34:39)

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