New Mars Forums

GCNRevenger,

I was talking about hybrid engines, not pure alternatives like nuclear drive. What about a Ramjet / Rocket Engine hybrid that could provide the means for spaceplane advancements ( Not scramjet technology because they are for inner atomsphere hypersonic transport ). We need development of transatomspheric drive systems not just hypersonic drive systems.

You can come up with hybrid drives that provide high thrust and longer duration from combining different design methodologies and working on the issues to complete the solutions.

Why go to the Moon ----> Test settlement technologies <--------

For Moonbase or Marbase developments we need constuctions methodology different to earth methodologies again it comes down to working through the issues including transportation of equipment, materials required and the ability to construct with automated vehicles and then coming up with solutions.

GCNRevenger, you need to work outside the norms in earth based technologies and methodologies to create new methods and technology for space both on planetary bodies and between planetary bodies.

P.S.

The Moon would have the same basic elements as we have on earth and If you took the landmass area on earth (exclude the area of the water) you will find the similar landmass of the whole moon thus we could assume you would find similar quantities. Don't think the moon has limited resources and thus no infrastructure or strategic benefit for mining or settlement on the moon before the settlement of Mars. ( I mean settlement not exploration ---> exploration would come first )

It doesn't matter if we go by rocket , spaceplane, or a hybrid of both but it matters the drive system we need for the engines to power the vehicle into space. We need to see what advances in current propellants could we do to create a new engine variation to increase the thrust per flight weight pound.

That's the first question to solve then we could solve all the other questions for the development of space. But Don't close your mind off to any possibility including the ones you don't like to think they are possbility because many good ideas help create and reshape existing thoughts into better solutions for the future.

What are the costs for a lunar elevator, It sound like an impractical and  unrealistic vehicle to build that wouldn't provide the cost benefits in the short medium and long term and require enormous resource costs.

We need to build within our current and short term future development and also have realistic development projects for expanding the space frontier.  Space for humanity is for colonization, settlement, exploration and evolution of the human race not just a place for scientists to " play in ". In the short term our current technology wastes resources lifting cargo , people and resources into space, We need to develop over time the technologies to reduce the waste and expand the settlement of humans.

Humanity will also take time to grow into a society that expands for knowledge and the ideals of the race and society not just for personal ideals, but at this time we do things for our personal ideals.   But until the race can evolve into a combined society of ideals for all humans we need to use the personal ideals to move things forward and create the future.

Any Idea is good but in order to make it succeed you must provide the vision, project plan, the investment capital and the return on the capital invested. It doesn't mean it requires a return in monetary value, knowledge that could be used into monetary products or services also is valuable.  We need also to work on longer timelines for these projects because of size and complexity of the tasks involved.

Just think of the costs, the resources and returns for humanity for the various projects/ vehicles/ and enterprises for humanity in space.

Dook

A Budget of US$130 Billion per year would allow US$20 Billion for exploration such as probes, droids, small human explorer missions for planetary research before outposts and human settlements, US$30 Billion for Earth-Moon Space ( including L Points ) and US$80 Billion for Large Human Colonization Projects.

Out of the US$80 Billion the lunar surface operation would receive US$45 Billion and Development of Space vehicles for human colonization would receive US$ 35 Billion. Within a shorter period of time the development of the Lunar , Lagrange Points and earth orbit would be complete and the next phase would be the creation of a larger settlement and small outposts on Mars and outer moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

We need to move rapidly into space for many reasons : 1. To make the world understand the growth in human knowledge and spirit is tied to understanding and growing in space technoiologies and adapting in space. 2.  To stop having all our human eggs in on small basket on earth and provide the ability for our race to grow and prosper in space. 3. The knowledge that we would gain would open new fields of technology and understanding for humanity. 4. To bring the exploration spirit back to the human race because we need to move out to meet new challenges.

We developing on the moon could provide the catalyst for expanding into space by development of the fusion generator thus provide the means for plasma drive and ion drive systems but large spacecrafts are needed. The Lunar facilities will provide the construction hangars for construction and mining the resources for these crafts. As we increase our knowledge into drive system larger space vehicles can be designed for specialist tasks like asteroid mine processing vessel, long range explorer vessel, larger colonization cargo and human settlement vessels and more.

Their are other technologies that we have just started to examine and work towards that will come through in the next hundred years including wormhole travel part of quantum physics. It all comes down to resources and placing those resources to focus on expanding human presence in space for the long term benefit of the human race.

8)

The Moon is a vital infrastructure for the long term vitability of humanity into space. The only place in space to build and launch larger scale space vehicles and the testing of large scale drive systems without the risk of our planet.

Added material resources of the moon into expanding into space, the scientific outposts for astronomy, astrophysics, and the training of crews for long term space environmental conditions are additional reasons.

We will expand into space using the Lpoints in the earth-moon system, the lunar surface to expand the human presence into space, then expand our human colonization onto Mars, Jupiter's Moons and Saturn's Moons before going interstellar. We need to have places to build, research and experiment in new technologies that is the moon.

So, if you don't see the vital nature of the moon then I can not explain it any better then I have, GCNRevenger.

We need to use the current developed vehicles or the future designed launched vehicles that are under developed for accelerating the move into space. Future Spaceplanes and other reusable vehicles will come but we need to move now not later and later and later .

By resusing the First stage from the Cargo HLV and building a second stage CEV module that launches from the Cargo HLV we could reduce the overall per kg costs for humans in space. Also meeting the movement of cargo from orbit to earth via the re-entry craft space.

If we go with bigalow space station or other station designs we could need a larger CEV for orbital use in the 2010 - 2020 timeframe. The development of a spinning space station or gravity based platform will open more personnel into space for longer terms and will help the expansion for Orbit, Lpoints, Moon, Mars and Beyond.

I mean a larger Crew Module for the Cargo rocket that would carry 20+ personnel into low earth orbit for space station/s work, or a Cargo and crew design for low earth orbit. We need to bring larger numbers of personnel into space and place them in an artifical gravity environment for extended periods in space. Thus creating the first permanent presence in orbit for long term space exploration.

The current cargo and cev design would be great for lunar operations and eventually Mars missions but the Larger version would be for lower earth orbit. we could design a pure cargo re-entry vehicle for industrial products from low earth orbit part of a large effect to expand into space permanently.

Again private sector could look into this as a venture and future industry.

8)

Well,

I was looking through the NASA website about the current Designs for the CEV and remembered that prior to the Saturn V rocket for the moon was the Saturn 1B Design. If we designed a larger Crew vehicle variation of the cargo rocket it should turn out to be the size of the old Saturn 1B but we could double or treble the crew for the space stations and tourism for space. Also the Private sector could fund a vehicle of that size instead a shuttle carft.  We need larger return cargo transports from orbit to earth. ( Another Design Variation)

But, I still think we could design Horizontal Takeoff Cargo vessels to deliver cargo through one-way missions from earth to low earth orbit for disassembly and reuse of materials for expansion in orbit.

We could design various variations for the CEV Program and thus provide another expansion of humanity into space without increasing the costs. Development through innovation and reusability.

The current designs have alot of components that are left orbiting in space and when you have multiple trips going to the moon and if we do the same amount of trips that the shuttle has done already ( 100+) then we will have 100 stage two vehicles in space - rubbishing space. RECYCLE the name of the game and it should be NASA game as well.

The engine assemblies alone could be recycled, the fuel tanks as well  and outer shell of the modules for other spacecrafts or building other terrestial buildings like a fuel depot on the lunar surface or a water storage facility either.

I am not impressed with the scientists, and innovators of the NASA or it contractors if that is the only concept they could come up with.

:cry:  :cry:

What a Topic : Privatize space exploration !!!!!!!!!

The main difference must be the development of newer and low cost processes for space development that could bring forth human society into space.

Firstly we need to build a business plan approach around the development aspects and the revenue aspects of the space project. Because funding the projects must be a nil cost or profitable a basis. ( with nil cost you need to provide other advantages including strategic or future relating goals )

Second, a venture capital broker to find the money for the venture and secure the funding. The funding will come from many sources - individuals, private companies, public companies and government.

Thirdly , build the project on time and within budget, because that provides you with the demonstrated skills for the future of other projects for funding and expanding into space.

I will take that as a compliment, but if it wasn't , then we need a new level of skills for normal occupations and we need to add the necessary skills to the existing diplomas, trade certificates, and advance them into a new understanding of space environment and expand human society into it without us fearing the unknown.

Titanman,

I think we should concentrate on the development of earth orbit, Lunar surface, Mars and the Asteroid Mining Operations before we look any further. We will need dozen or so vessels to continuosly work between these regions and multiple space stations and zero gravity platforms and ground installations that will keep us going for the next 100 years but after that we could look at the outer planets and moon with newer drive systems and larger space vessels and could provide a large scale projects such as " Titan Colony Direct " one stop movement of a colony of 100 personnel for Titan or any other planetary body in the outer solar system.