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#101 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-11-07 04:48:11
I can see that Dr Zubrin has seen my linkedin message now, fingers crossed!
Here is a picture to keep you all inspired:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_% … _crater%29
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Update from AI about atmospheric increase on Mars:
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Give me a rough estimate range of atmospheric increase percentagewise
ChatGPT
Providing a rough estimate range for the percentage increase in Mars' atmospheric mass due to an impact by Halley's Comet is challenging due to the numerous variables involved, including the comet's mass, impact velocity, and the proportion of volatile ices released. However, as a very rough estimate, it could potentially increase the atmospheric mass by several percentage points.
Keep in mind that this is a highly speculative scenario, and the exact outcome would depend on many factors. Additionally, the impact's long-term consequences on the Martian environment, climate, and any potential future human colonization would be complex and require extensive analysis.
User
Do your best
ChatGPT
As a very rough and speculative estimate, crashing Halley's Comet into a Martian pole could potentially increase Mars' atmospheric mass by approximately 1% to 10%. This range is based on the fact that comets contain a significant amount of volatile ices, and the release of these ices upon impact could contribute to an increase in atmospheric mass. However, the exact percentage would depend on the specific properties of Halley's Comet, the impact conditions, and the efficiency of transferring comet materials to the Martian atmosphere. Please note that this is a highly hypothetical scenario and the actual outcome could vary widely.
User
Lets assume the speed of the comet is high enough to create a 50km deep crater
ChatGPT
Creating a 50-kilometer (about 31 miles) deep crater on Mars with an impact would indeed be a significant event, and the consequences for the Martian environment would be substantial. However, it's important to note that such an impact would be highly destructive and could have severe consequences, including potentially catastrophic effects on the Martian surface and atmosphere.
If we assume that Halley's Comet, with its estimated nucleus size of about 15 kilometers, is moving at a speed high enough to create a 50-kilometer deep crater, it would release a tremendous amount of energy upon impact. The exact percentage increase in Mars' atmospheric mass would depend on various factors, including the efficiency of transferring comet materials to the Martian atmosphere.
To provide a very rough estimate based on the size and composition of Halley's Comet and the energy release of such a large impact, it could potentially increase Mars' atmospheric mass by a substantial percentage, perhaps in the range of 100% to 500% or more. However, these estimates are highly speculative and should be taken as rough approximations. The long-term consequences of such an impact, including its impact on Mars' climate and the potential for widespread destruction, would be complex and require detailed modeling and analysis.
User
Before you said 1-10% why does the increase speed of the comet increase the percentage by so much more?
ChatGPT
I apologize for any inconsistency in my previous responses. The estimated percentage increase in Mars' atmospheric mass is indeed influenced by various factors, including the impact energy, the size and composition of the comet, and the efficiency of transferring comet materials to the Martian atmosphere.
The reason for the increase in the estimated percentage when considering a higher-speed impact is the significantly greater energy released during such an impact. A high-speed impact would create a much larger crater and release more energy, potentially liberating a larger volume of comet material into the Martian atmosphere. As a result, the potential contribution to the Martian atmospheric mass could be greater.
The percentage estimates provided earlier are rough and speculative, and the actual outcome of such an impact would depend on numerous factors, including the specific properties of the comet and the impact conditions. These estimates are intended to give a general sense of the potential impact on Mars' atmosphere, but the exact numbers would require detailed modeling and analysis to determine.
User
Did you also consider the extra energy would liberate also more of the martian ice?
ChatGPT
Yes, you are correct. A high-speed impact by a comet could release not only more of the comet's materials but also more Martian surface materials, including water ice. The impact energy would lead to the excavation and ejection of a significant volume of Martian material, and this would contribute to the potential increase in atmospheric mass.
This effect, combined with the release of volatile ices from the comet, could indeed lead to a larger increase in the Martian atmospheric mass compared to a lower-speed impact. The estimation of the exact percentage increase in the atmosphere would depend on a complex interplay of factors, including the size and composition of the comet, the impact velocity, and the efficiency of transferring materials to the atmosphere.
Again, these estimates are highly speculative, and the actual outcome would require detailed modeling and analysis to provide a more precise assessment of the impact's consequences on the Martian atmosphere and environment.
User
What would be the impact speed?
ChatGPT
To create a crater that's 50 kilometers (about 31 miles) deep on Mars with an impact, the impact speed would need to be extremely high. The specific impact speed required depends on various factors, including the size and density of the comet or asteroid, the angle of impact, and the properties of the Martian surface.
As a point of reference, impacts that create large craters on planetary bodies typically involve speeds on the order of tens of kilometers per second (km/s) or even higher. For example, the asteroid that is believed to have caused the Chicxulub crater on Earth, associated with the extinction of the dinosaurs, is estimated to have impacted at a speed of around 20 km/s (about 72,000 kilometers per hour or 45,000 miles per hour).
To create a 50-kilometer deep crater on Mars, the impact speed would likely need to be significantly higher than this, although the exact speed would depend on the specific parameters of the impact scenario and the properties of Halley's Comet. It's important to note that an impact of such magnitude would have severe and far-reaching consequences for Mars and would be a subject of scientific and ethical concern.
User
How many km/s?
ChatGPT
Creating a crater that's 50 kilometers deep on Mars would require an extremely high impact speed, likely in the range of tens of kilometers per second (km/s). The precise impact speed would depend on various factors, including the size and density of the impacting object (in this case, Halley's Comet), the angle of impact, and the properties of the Martian surface at the impact site.
A rough estimate could place the impact speed at perhaps 30-50 km/s or higher to create such a deep crater. However, it's important to emphasize that this is a highly speculative scenario, and the actual impact conditions would need to be thoroughly studied through modeling and analysis. Additionally, it's worth reiterating that an impact of this magnitude would have severe and widespread consequences for Mars and its environment.
User
What would be the impact speed?
ChatGPT
To create a crater that's 50 kilometers (about 31 miles) deep on Mars with an impact, the impact speed would need to be extremely high. The specific impact speed required depends on various factors, including the size and density of the comet or asteroid, the angle of impact, and the properties of the Martian surface.
As a point of reference, impacts that create large craters on planetary bodies typically involve speeds on the order of tens of kilometers per second (km/s) or even higher. For example, the asteroid that is believed to have caused the Chicxulub crater on Earth, associated with the extinction of the dinosaurs, is estimated to have impacted at a speed of around 20 km/s (about 72,000 kilometers per hour or 45,000 miles per hour).
To create a 50-kilometer deep crater on Mars, the impact speed would likely need to be significantly higher than this, although the exact speed would depend on the specific parameters of the impact scenario and the properties of Halley's Comet. It's important to note that an impact of such magnitude would have severe and far-reaching consequences for Mars and would be a subject of scientific and ethical concern.
User
How many km/s?
ChatGPT
Creating a crater that's 50 kilometers deep on Mars would require an extremely high impact speed, likely in the range of tens of kilometers per second (km/s). The precise impact speed would depend on various factors, including the size and density of the impacting object (in this case, Halley's Comet), the angle of impact, and the properties of the Martian surface at the impact site.
A rough estimate could place the impact speed at perhaps 30-50 km/s or higher to create such a deep crater. However, it's important to emphasize that this is a highly speculative scenario, and the actual impact conditions would need to be thoroughly studied through modeling and analysis. Additionally, it's worth reiterating that an impact of this magnitude would have severe and widespread consequences for Mars and its environment.
User
What will be the new air pressure at Martian datum, Hellas Planitia and at the bottom of the new crater in the pole?
ChatGPT
Calculating the new air pressure at Martian datum (the average surface level), Hellas Planitia, and at the bottom of the new crater following a hypothetical impact by Halley's Comet would require detailed modeling and precise data on the impact conditions, such as the size and composition of the comet, the impact speed, and the angle of impact. Without this specific information, I can't provide exact values, but I can offer some general considerations:
Martian Datum (Average Surface Level):
The current average surface pressure on Mars is about 6.4 millibars (mb), which is roughly 0.6% of Earth's atmospheric pressure.
Following a high-speed impact by a large comet, the addition of material to the Martian atmosphere could significantly increase the surface pressure. The actual increase would depend on the mass and composition of the comet and the efficiency of transferring its materials to the atmosphere.
Hellas Planitia:
Hellas Planitia is a large impact basin on Mars with a lower elevation compared to the average surface. It has a slightly higher atmospheric pressure than the Martian average due to its lower elevation.
The impact could further increase the atmospheric pressure in Hellas Planitia, but the exact amount would depend on the impact's location within the basin and its properties.
Bottom of the New Crater:
The bottom of the new crater would experience the most significant changes in atmospheric pressure, especially if it's 50 kilometers deep.
The impact would release a substantial volume of material into the atmosphere, potentially leading to a temporary increase in atmospheric pressure at the crater's base.
The specific increase in pressure at the bottom of the crater would depend on the impact's characteristics, including the amount and type of material ejected.
To obtain precise values for the new air pressures at these locations, a detailed numerical simulation using impact modeling software and specific input parameters would be required. Such simulations are beyond the scope of a simple text-based response and would be the subject of a complex scientific study.
User
So answer the question best you can
ChatGPT
Without specific data and detailed modeling, I can't provide exact values for the new air pressures at Martian datum, Hellas Planitia, and at the bottom of the new crater following a hypothetical impact by Halley's Comet. The increase in atmospheric pressure would depend on the size, composition, and speed of the comet, as well as the efficiency of transferring its materials to the Martian atmosphere.
However, following such an impact, it's reasonable to expect a significant and temporary increase in atmospheric pressure at the crater's base, which could be several times higher than the pre-impact atmospheric pressure. This would result from the release of materials from both the comet and the Martian surface. The atmospheric pressure would gradually equilibrate over time as the added materials disperse throughout the Martian atmosphere.
For specific and accurate values, a sophisticated impact modeling study would be necessary, and it's a complex scientific endeavor that requires precise data on the impact conditions and Martian properties.
User
Make reasonable assumptions
ChatGPT
Assuming a high-speed impact by Halley's Comet that creates a 50-kilometer deep crater on Mars, we can make some rough, reasonable assumptions for the changes in atmospheric pressure:
Martian Datum (Average Surface Level):
The current average surface pressure on Mars is about 6.4 millibars (mb), or roughly 0.6% of Earth's atmospheric pressure.
Following the impact, the addition of material to the Martian atmosphere could lead to a temporary increase in surface pressure. A rough estimate might be an increase of several times the pre-impact pressure. So, for example, it might temporarily reach tens or even hundreds of millibars.
Hellas Planitia:
Hellas Planitia is already at a lower elevation, so its atmospheric pressure is slightly higher than the Martian average.
The impact within Hellas Planitia could result in a more significant increase in atmospheric pressure compared to the pre-impact conditions, perhaps reaching hundreds of millibars.
Bottom of the New Crater:
The bottom of the new crater would experience the most substantial increase in atmospheric pressure.
Depending on the size and composition of the comet, as well as the depth of the crater, the pressure at the bottom could be substantially higher than at Hellas Planitia, possibly reaching several hundred millibars or more.
Please note that these are very rough, speculative estimates and the actual values would depend on many factors, including the specifics of the impact event and the efficiency of transferring materials to the Martian atmosphere. Additionally, these changes in atmospheric pressure would likely be temporary, and over time, the atmosphere would gradually equilibrate back to its normal conditions as the added materials disperse throughout Mars' thin atmosphere.
User
Give educated guesses of bars for each 3 regions
ChatGPT
While these educated guesses are highly speculative, I can provide rough estimates for the changes in atmospheric pressure in each of the three regions following a hypothetical high-speed impact by Halley's Comet:
Martian Datum (Average Surface Level):
Following the impact, it's possible that the atmospheric pressure at Martian datum could temporarily increase to around 100 to 500 millibars (mb) or even higher. This is a very rough estimate, and the actual value would depend on the impact conditions.
Hellas Planitia:
Given its lower elevation, Hellas Planitia has a higher atmospheric pressure compared to the Martian average. Following the impact within Hellas Planitia, it might see an even more substantial increase in atmospheric pressure, possibly reaching several hundred millibars or even into the kilobar range.
Bottom of the New Crater:
The bottom of the new crater would experience the most significant increase in atmospheric pressure. Depending on the size and composition of the comet, the depth of the crater, and the efficiency of the transfer of materials to the atmosphere, the pressure at the crater's base could be several kilobars or higher, possibly even exceeding 10 kilobars.
These are educated guesses based on the potential consequences of a massive impact event. However, the specific values would require detailed numerical simulations and modeling to determine accurately, taking into account the impact conditions and Martian properties.
User
I dont like the 2nd answer for Helllas Planitia, give me minimum to maximum instead of saying kiobar range
ChatGPT
Certainly, I understand your preference. For Hellas Planitia, assuming a high-speed impact by Halley's Comet, the educated guess for the increase in atmospheric pressure might be within the range of approximately 500 millibars (mb) to 2 kilobars. This is a more specific estimate and reflects the potential range of pressure increase in Hellas Planitia following the impact. Please keep in mind that these values are still highly speculative and would require detailed modeling for precise determination.
User
Ok now answer all 3 questions again
ChatGPT
Certainly, based on the previous assumptions for a high-speed impact by Halley's Comet:
Martian Datum (Average Surface Level):
The atmospheric pressure at Martian datum could temporarily increase to roughly 100 to 500 millibars (mb) following the impact.
Hellas Planitia:
In Hellas Planitia, the increase in atmospheric pressure might fall within the range of approximately 500 millibars (0.5 kilobars) to 2 kilobars (2000 millibars).
Bottom of the New Crater:
The bottom of the new crater would experience the most significant increase in atmospheric pressure. Depending on various factors, it could reach several kilobars or more, potentially exceeding 10 kilobars.
Please note that these estimates are still educated guesses and highly speculative, and they are subject to significant uncertainties due to the complex nature of such an impact event. Precise values would require detailed
User
Do not use mili bar just give the answers in bar.
ChatGPT
Certainly, here are the rough estimates in bars:
Martian Datum (Average Surface Level):
Estimated increase in atmospheric pressure: 0.1 to 0.5 bars.
Hellas Planitia:
Estimated increase in atmospheric pressure: 0.5 to 2 bars.
Bottom of the New Crater:
Estimated increase in atmospheric pressure: Several bars, potentially exceeding 10 bars.
User
Looks like the 50km deep crater is no longer necessary for human levels of atmospheric pressure.
ChatGPT
That's correct. Even with a crater depth less than 50 kilometers, a high-speed impact by a large comet like Halley's Comet could potentially create atmospheric pressure increases significant enough to approach human-breathable levels, especially in the impact vicinity and within the crater. However, it's important to remember that these estimates are highly speculative, and the actual outcome would depend on numerous variables and require careful modeling and analysis. Additionally, the long-term consequences of such an impact on the Martian environment would be complex and far-reaching.
User
But is there a way to make Mars have an overall 0.5 bars of atmopsheric pressure with the comet without creating such a deep crater?
ChatGPT
Creating an overall atmospheric pressure of 0.5 bars on Mars using a comet impact without a deep crater would be challenging. The main obstacle is that Mars has a relatively thin atmosphere, and adding a significant amount of material to achieve that level of pressure would require a massive impact.
A deep crater or significant impact event is one way to introduce a substantial volume of material into the Martian atmosphere. This material would include both the comet's components and Martian surface material ejected by the impact. The depth of the crater is an indirect indicator of the amount of material introduced, which is why a deep crater was initially considered.
To achieve an overall atmospheric pressure of 0.5 bars without a deep crater, you would need to introduce a massive amount of gas and dust into the Martian atmosphere in a controlled manner. This could be a highly complex and challenging engineering project, and it's uncertain whether a comet impact alone, without a deep crater, could provide the necessary amount of material to reach that pressure level.
Such an endeavor would require extensive planning, technology development, and consideration of potential long-term consequences for the Martian environment and climate. It's a complex and speculative proposition, and the feasibility of achieving that specific pressure level without a deep crater would require further study and analysis.
User
So I am getting the crater even if I dont need it if I want Mars to have an overall 0.5 bars of atmospheric pressure?
ChatGPT
Yes, if the objective is to increase Mars' overall atmospheric pressure to approximately 0.5 bars, you would likely need a significant impact event, which could create a deep crater or result in substantial surface disturbances. Such an event would introduce a considerable amount of material into the Martian atmosphere, which could lead to a temporary increase in atmospheric pressure. The depth of the crater would be an indirect measure of the impact's magnitude and the amount of material added to the atmosphere.
Creating an atmosphere with a pressure of 0.5 bars on Mars is a complex and challenging task, and it would have significant consequences for the planet's environment and climate. Detailed modeling and analysis would be required to plan and evaluate the impact event carefully, as well as its long-term effects on the Martian environment and the potential for supporting human colonization.
User
ok lets day 100 years has passed, Mars is has lost the gains made by the impact, what is the most likely bar at the bottom of the 50km deep crater? Hint, it should be the pressure on mars now if there were already such a crater
ChatGPT
If we assume that 100 years have passed since the impact event and that Mars has returned to its pre-impact atmospheric conditions, the pressure at the bottom of the 50-kilometer deep crater would likely be close to the current atmospheric pressure on Mars. As of today, Mars has an atmospheric pressure of about 0.6% of Earth's atmospheric pressure, which is roughly equivalent to 0.006 bars.
Therefore, after 100 years, the pressure at the bottom of the crater would be expected to have returned to a similar level, approximately 0.006 bars. This is because the atmospheric pressure within the crater would gradually equilibrate with the surrounding Martian atmosphere as the added materials disperse and the effects of the impact event diminish.
User
Youre forgetting that the lower we are the higher the pressure, 50km below Martian datum even today should produce a result closer to 1 bar
ChatGPT
You are correct, and I apologize for any misunderstanding. At a depth of 50 kilometers below Martian datum (average surface level), the pressure would indeed be significantly higher than the Martian surface pressure due to the increased weight of the overlying atmosphere.
Even without the impact event, the pressure at a depth of 50 kilometers below Martian datum today would be closer to 1 bar, or roughly equivalent to Earth's atmospheric pressure at sea level. This is because the pressure in a planetary atmosphere generally increases with depth due to the weight of the overlying gases.
Therefore, even after 100 years, the pressure at the bottom of the 50-kilometer deep crater would likely remain at a level closer to 1 bar, assuming it has returned to pre-impact conditions. Thank you for pointing out the depth-related increase in pressure, and I appreciate your clarification.
#102 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-11-06 15:59:51
One related ting that could be considered it to poke a hole in the Martian crust and stimulate an artesian well. My notion on this is that it might be done in Hellas . A requirement is that there does exist an aquifer under the permafrost. That is not proven or discovered.
To poke a hole might use an object collision or a set of nuclear bombs.
If you got the permafrost to leak then you would need to add heat to the resulting reservoir, maybe reactors, or maybe space based solar power. And you would have to have a method to continuously clean dust off of the ice.
Just a thought since you members have not continued at this time.
Done
I considered Hellas originally but AI says that the polar option limits the effects non globally which I think is a huge political plus. I think we have to keep in mind the public sentiment on this idea so people don't freak out in outrage that we are destroying the planet entirely. But please reply if I missed or misunderstood something. Will "poking" cause a global tsunami of sand and dust and earth quakes?
By the way here is an image of my idea that I tweeted around:
As you can I am suggesting we only strike Mars while it's safely on the opposite side of the sun so that again public sentiment will not rile up in outrage and panic that we are sending a planet killer that could kill us all if our comet's trajectory is slightly off-course.
But I am sure people will still ask if Mars will hit us if we alter it's orbit slightly by doing this. What do you think? Will it? Could it?
UPDATE===================== AI
If I instead cause a kuiper belt comet like object to hit one of Mar's poles do you think the material from the comet will add atmosphere to Mars?
ChatGPT
Impacting a Kuiper belt comet-like object on Mars could indeed introduce new materials and potentially contribute to an increase in its atmospheric mass. Comets are known to contain various ices, including water ice, carbon dioxide (CO2) ice, and other volatile compounds. When a comet collides with a planet, the heat generated during the impact can cause these ices to vaporize and release gases into the atmosphere.
Here are some considerations for such an impact:
Atmospheric Contribution: The release of gases from the comet's ices, particularly water vapor and other volatiles, would contribute to Mars' atmosphere. However, the extent of the contribution would depend on the size and composition of the impacting comet.
Short-Term Effects: The increase in atmospheric mass would likely be temporary, as the Martian atmosphere is relatively thin, and gases can be lost to space over time. To maintain a thicker atmosphere, long-term terraforming efforts would be necessary.
Environmental Impact: The impact itself would create a significant disturbance, potentially generating massive craters and ejecting material into space. It could also lead to changes in the Martian climate and temperature.
Planetary Protection: Such an impact would require careful consideration of planetary protection protocols to avoid introducing Earth's microorganisms to Mars or contaminating any potential Martian life.
Targeted Impacts: To achieve specific terraforming goals, it would be important to target comet impacts strategically, considering factors like the planet's geology, climate, and the gases needed for a more habitable atmosphere.
In summary, impacting a comet on Mars could contribute to the planet's atmosphere, but it would be a complex and potentially disruptive process. It would be just one step in a broader terraforming strategy that would require careful planning, long-term commitment, and the integration of various techniques to transform Mars into a more habitable world.
User
Is there a chance that doing this will alter the Martian orbit to collide with Earth?
ChatGPT
Impacting Mars with a comet or any other celestial object from the Kuiper belt would not have a significant chance of altering Mars' orbit to the extent that it would collide with Earth. The reason for this is that celestial mechanics and orbital dynamics make such an outcome extremely unlikely for several reasons:
Mass Differences: Mars and Earth have significantly different masses. Earth is much more massive than Mars, and objects in space are primarily influenced by the gravitational pull of the more massive body. Changing Mars' orbit to the point where it would intersect with Earth's orbit would require an extraordinary amount of energy, far beyond anything we could achieve with the impact of a single comet.
Conservation of Angular Momentum: In space, angular momentum is conserved. Any change in an object's orbit requires the application of a significant force over time. A single impact event, even with a comet, would not provide enough force to drastically alter Mars' orbit to the point of collision with Earth.
Predictable Orbital Mechanics: The orbits of planets in our solar system are well-understood and highly predictable. Altering a planet's orbit to the point of causing a collision with another planet would be an extraordinary event and is not something that can happen easily or accidentally.
Advanced Planning: Any mission to intentionally change the orbit of a planet would require advanced planning, careful calculations, and the application of a sustained and substantial force over a long period.
In summary, the possibility of accidentally altering the orbit of Mars to the extent that it would collide with Earth through an impact event is virtually non-existent. Such a scenario would require a level of energy, precision, and planning that far exceeds anything within our current technological capabilities.
If the comet misses Mars is it possible it could swing back and hit Earth?
ChatGPT
It's theoretically possible for a comet to have its trajectory altered during an encounter with a planet, like Mars, in such a way that it could lead to future close approaches with Earth. However, the likelihood of this happening is extremely low for several reasons:
Precision Required: Changing the trajectory of a comet in a way that would lead to a future collision with Earth would require an extremely precise and unlikely set of circumstances during the initial encounter with Mars.
Conservation of Energy: In the absence of further encounters or additional gravitational interactions with other celestial bodies, comets tend to follow predictable trajectories determined by their initial conditions. It is challenging to significantly alter these trajectories with a single planetary encounter.
Long Timeframes: The timescales involved in such orbital changes are typically very long, spanning thousands to millions of years. It's unlikely that a comet would return to threaten Earth within a human-relevant timeframe.
Monitoring and Mitigation: Scientists closely monitor the trajectories of known comets and asteroids that could potentially impact Earth. If a comet's orbit were found to pose a future collision risk, there would be time to develop and implement mitigation strategies to alter its course and prevent an impact.
In summary, while it's theoretically possible for a comet to have its trajectory altered in a way that could lead to a future close approach with Earth, the chances of such a scenario occurring are extremely remote. Scientists actively track and study the orbits of comets and asteroids that could pose a threat to Earth, and if a potential threat were identified, efforts would be made to mitigate the risk.
User
So if I make a 50km deep crater in the pole to sustain 1 bar of air pressure, explain to me how this is going to be more localized if most of the debrie is still dirt and not ice compared to hitting hellas planitia?
ChatGPT
I apologize for any confusion. Creating a 50-kilometer deep crater on a Martian pole or anywhere else on the planet would indeed have widespread effects and not be localized. The impact would involve a massive release of energy, create a colossal crater, and displace a significant amount of material, both ice and regolith (soil-like material). Such an impact would have far-reaching consequences on the Martian environment, similar to or potentially more extensive than an impact in Hellas Planitia.
In the context of terraforming Mars or making significant planetary modifications, both polar and non-polar impacts would have global-scale and long-lasting effects. The creation of a crater of this scale would be a significant, planet-altering event and not a localized phenomenon. I apologize for any previous statements that may have suggested otherwise.
To create a sustainable and habitable environment on Mars, other comprehensive approaches would be required beyond a single impact event. These approaches might include controlled release of greenhouse gases, long-term maintenance of a stable atmosphere, and careful management of surface conditions, among other strategies.
User
Is it still better to hit the pole so that the eplosion will melt and evaporate the ice there to add to the atmosphere and liquid water for the crater?
ChatGPT
Hitting a Martian pole, where there is a higher concentration of water ice, with the goal of creating a substantial impact crater could indeed lead to the release of water vapor into the atmosphere and potentially create a location where liquid water might briefly exist in the form of a temporary crater lake. This could have potential benefits for terraforming efforts, including increasing atmospheric water content and providing a source of liquid water.
However, it's important to recognize the challenges and limitations of this approach:
Short-Term Effects: The increase in atmospheric water content and the presence of liquid water would likely be temporary, as Mars has a thin atmosphere, and water can be lost to space over time. To maintain a more permanent water-rich atmosphere and surface conditions, sustained efforts would be necessary.
Global vs. Local Impact: While an impact on a polar region could affect the local environment and the immediate vicinity of the crater, it might not have a significant global effect on the entire planet's atmosphere and climate. Achieving global changes would require a broader terraforming strategy.
Environmental Challenges: The immediate aftermath of such a large impact would involve extreme conditions, such as high temperatures, radiation exposure, and the formation of a massive crater. These conditions would need to be addressed for long-term habitability.
Planetary Protection: Careful consideration of planetary protection measures would be necessary to avoid introducing Earth microorganisms to Mars or contaminating any potential Martian life.
In summary, while impacting a Martian pole could have specific benefits for a terraforming effort, it is just one part of a larger, carefully planned strategy for making Mars more habitable. Other aspects of terraforming, such as controlling the planet's climate, raising atmospheric pressure, and providing a stable and sustainable environment, would also be essential considerations.
================
Looks like AI is walking back about polar being a non global option.
==============AND THEN THIS HAPPENED====
User
I would argue that the polar ice would absorb much more of the energy if they werent there in other strike zones
ChatGPT
Your point about the polar ice affecting the absorption of impact energy is valid. In the context of a planetary impact, the presence of ice or other materials at the impact site can indeed influence the distribution and absorption of energy. Here are some factors to consider:
Absorption of Energy: The type of material at the impact site can affect how much energy is absorbed by the planet. Ice can absorb some of the impact energy, but it can also be vaporized, leading to the release of gases into the atmosphere.
Impact Angle: The angle at which the impacting object strikes the planet is a critical factor. A direct, vertical impact transfers more energy to the planet's surface, while an oblique impact can create different effects, potentially with more lateral distribution of energy.
Material Properties: The density, composition, and properties of the impacting object also play a significant role in determining the outcome of an impact. Objects with different compositions and densities may have varying effects.
Local Environment: The specific characteristics of the impact site, such as the presence of ice, regolith, and subsurface materials, can influence how energy is distributed, how much heat is generated, and what consequences result from the impact.
While ice can absorb some energy and influence the effects of an impact, it's important to keep in mind that impact events on planetary bodies involve an enormous release of energy. The overall effects depend on a complex interplay of multiple factors, including the size, velocity, and composition of the impacting object, as well as the planet's characteristics and local environment.
In the case of Mars, any impact on the polar ice caps would indeed have unique effects related to the release of gases from the ice, but the consequences would still extend beyond the immediate impact site.
#103 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-11-05 14:37:24
I entertained your idea to AI:
https://chat.openai.com/share/8fecbaeb- … 62761fe906
Feel free to talk to it more if you feel I didn't interrogate it enough. AI chatbot has been known to make mistakes but it thinks there are more problems crashing lots of nearby asteroid compared to my single strike idea with a far away comet. First of all with my single strike idea the effects are localized and any global effects are positive while the many asteroid crashing onto mars creates global negative effects. Then it thinks there is insufficient fluids in the nearby asteroids to make that much of an addition to the Martian atmosphere. The idea of using the single comet is the higher potential energy required to make a 50km deep crater, so that crater is eliminated in your asteroid crashing scenario, you have to wait it out instead of getting an instant habitable zone at the bottom of the crater. Well near instant, u have to wait for the crater to cool down somewhat and let all the new oceans and lakes settle before landing anyone there. You get the idea. Otherwise I would have made the topic about crashing asteroids into Mars but I knew that the potential energy just isnt there to create the crater and also it might be tough to aim it at the poles from where they are situated. I am assuming a suitable kuiper belt object or oort cloud object can be found above the martian orbit to hit Mars's north pole while its on the far side of the sun relative to Earth so that the media doesnt panic us with the possibility that we might send a planet killer to mars that could hit us instead if we get the trajectory slightly off angle. Although an AI pilot program should be able to manage the precise navigation.
Is anyone here able to get Dr Zubrin to weigh in on this topic? Anyone here knows him personally?
Im studying your soil cell proposal now.
#104 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-11-05 09:22:45
PhotonBytes,
Good to see you again. In Post #2 you are proposing crashing comets into Mars to dig a hole deep enough for the air pressure to allow Earth life to survive. I thought I'd mention that the comets themself would also cause an increase in atmospheric pressure.On Earth, when a gas changes from a liquid to a gas, it usually expands somewhere around 700 to 900 times its volume. Here are some expansion ratio's:
nitrogen 696:1
argon 847:1
hydrogen 851:1
oxygen 862:1
(source)Nitrogen's expansion ratio of 696:1 means that a cubic meter of liquid nitrogen will expand to 696 cubic meters of gas when its warmed up to STP. A cubic meter of liquid argon will expand to 847 cubic meters of gas (when at STP), and so on.
On Mars this expansion ratio is much greater due to the low atmospheric air pressure of Mars. The atmospheric pressure on Earth at STP is about 153 times that of Mars. (6.518 millibars on Mars compared to 1,000 millibars on Earth, or 0.095 psi on Mars compared to 14.7 psi on Earth). Therefore gases will expand about 153 times as much on Mars as they do on Earth (pV=nRT).
Comets are sometimes described as "dirty snowballs" and contain frozen methane. I believe the expansion ratio for methane is about 850:1 (solid to gas). On Mars the expansion ratio would be about 153 times that, or about 130,000. Meaning that just one cubic km of frozen methane in a comet would expand to about 130,000 cubic km's of methane gas. As you can see, frozen gases in a comet can add quite a bit of volume to the Martian atmosphere, which in turn increases air pressure.
Adding methane to the Martian atmosphere would also cause Mars to warm, as methane is about 25 times as potent of a greenhouse gas than is carbon dioxide.
If we had the ability to crash comets into Mars, you probably would not have to dig 30-50km to get the air pressure you're wanting. Frozen gases from the comets you crashed to dig the hole would give you a boost in air pressure, and therefore you would not have to dig as deep. If you were to keep crashing more comets into Mars you could keep increasing the air pressure, which would decrease the required distance to dig.
Comets would also bring water to Mars. Many people don't realize this, but water vapor is also a greenhouse gas and would help warm Mars. We need to be careful about lakes on Mars though. Lakes are a reflective surface, and would reflect the suns rays (heat energy) back into space, and would have a cooling effect on Mars. If it were ever to rain on Mars, the clouds would also cause a cooling effect, as clouds also reflect heat energy from the sun back into space.
Many thanks for this response with the reference about expansion ratios! Has Robert Zubrin considered this greener method to terraform Mars vs Elon Musk's nuclear option? Since this is a forum about his vision I think he should be made aware of this alternative sitting right under his nose. Everyone is aware of Elon's idea because Elon is ... a billionaire, but this idea makes a lot more sense and even though Im not a billionaire I think the idea is much more realistic and politically palatable. The best part being that smacking the poles would limit the effects in the polar regions only. It will not effect the entire planet except for (as you pointed out above with the comet content and liquid gas expansion ratios) thickening the atmosphere which is considered a positive as it will make the entire planet not just the polar regions more habitable. Although the crater in either of the poles will still be the only place where one can not worry about decompression death as it will be close to 1 bar and shielded from solar wind with the crater walls and longer journey for such solar radiation though the atmosphere sideways to reach the poles. Mars has no van allan belt to protect Mars from solar wind but the Poles are the least effected by such and the new crater will offer additional shielding/protection.
Elon's idea will cause too much radiation fall out, but smacking a kuiper belt object will not - it's a green type of explosion. No radioactivity side effects. Also more power compared to nukes.
Robert's own invention the nuclear salt water rocket can redirect kuiper belt objects to hit one of the poles. A kuiper belt object has low velocity so it's easy to slow down and redirect. The challenge is getting the rocket out to those distances first which isnt actually a huge challenge given the power of the salt water reactor to offer the constant accelerations needed reach speeds to reach those distances quickly.
#105 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Dual Stage 4 Grid Ion Drive possibilities » 2023-11-04 11:28:10
Update with AI chatbot:
https://chat.openai.com/share/41ea06bb- … a33d395b7d
AI has given some additional input on my idea:
1. To maximize power generation with solar within 1AU one side should face the sun directly
2. RPM of 2.34 is required to maintain 1g with an internal centrifuge taking up a slice of the cube.
#106 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-11-04 10:52:53
UPDATE WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ON THIS TOPIC!
https://chat.openai.com/share/55ff5e31- … c9ce51e8ba
Seems the best way is to crash the kuiper belt object onto one of the poles of Mars to create an ocean that will remain in liquid form.
#107 Interplanetary transportation » Dual Stage 4 Grid Ion Drive possibilities » 2023-04-22 06:39:22
- PhotonBytes
- Replies: 6
I would like to invite you to peer review my idea.
Has anyone heard of the Dual Stage 4 Grid Ion Drive? Please check out the numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-Stage_4-Grid
https://www.esa.int/gsp/ACT/doc/PRO/ACT … C4.4.7.pdf
Based on these numbers:
https://1drv.ms/x/s!Aotveh8OjBiliuBwbLH … Q?e=dvGeRF
I created a design of an interplanetary spacecraft that will maximize surface area for the drive to maximize the thrust as the thrust is a function of surface area. I also noticed that solar panels are optimized for this too so on the sides of the craft that is cubic shape I also placed solar panels which would be useful when the ship is either moving slowly or in an orbit around a planet and not in transit.
The ship has to be nuclear powered and I decided for this thought experiment to make it a Fast Neutron Reactor and got the figures of wikipedia. If there are any issues with this decision please let me know. I just assumed that it would be lighter than 10 tons which I imagined to be the mass of the ship's empty weight. The nuclear fuel U238 will have to be very highly enriched and able to breed. I feel I made a mistake in my numbers because I didn't factor in the return trip so I really should have doubled the numbers of nuclear fuel and propellant, so there really should be another 10 tons on top of the 20 tons fully fueled. 10 ton empty + 20 ton of nuclear fuel and propellant should give us a very comfortable ride to Mars or Titan at 30 tons. Perhaps throw in a lander too because this ship is not designed to land on any moons or planets. Oh and maybe factor in food, water and crew another 5 tons for 35 tons. But if you fly in a convoy of at least 2 or more cubes then things like landers can just be on one or two ships and the others can store food and water. Then you're back down to an average mass of 30 tons but now you also can link up and have artificial gravity. See below for more details.
Although you still could have done it with the initial configuration but reduce the to and return trip and still be more comfortable than ISS astronauts sometimes spend at least a year there.
You could also have a cube sent ahead with a lander but it took it's sweet time controlled by AI with no crew but plenty of return fuel and propellant. Then you could fly the initial configuration ship there at warp speed and have a return cube waiting for you to take you home after your stay.
The ship is a scaffold but it can be optionally panelled and pressurized inside to maximize breathable volume allowing 4,900 cubic meters of habitable volume. The ship will need the ability to radiate away nuclear reactor heat by running coolant through the scaffolding and transfer the heat into any panels added so that it can radiate into space.
From the numbers I generated for specific impulse and my assumptions for needed fuel and mass for a ship, I came to the following conclusions about what is possible for a team to visit Mars and Titan:
Cut travel time to Mars from 7 months to 3 weeks.
Cut travel time to Titan from 7 years to 7 months.
First and last 12 hours of interplanetary travel leg will give artificial gravity to the ship especially if it has multiple deck levels. Although you will only feel 1/10th Earth's gravity at 1m/s/s it's still better than nothing. You can also rotate the single cube for some artificial gravity but there would be some Coriolis effect because the diameter is only 17m.
Flying a 2nd, 3rd or 4th cubic ship in formation will give you the option to connect them all together for more artificial gravity by rotating a rectangular interconnected mass. At a planetary destination such as Mars or Titan they can link up in greater numbers or with longer scaffold for slower rotation in exchange for longer structure for less Coriolis effect. This would be great for Geosync orbits above Earth/Mars too so that station crew will have a 24 hour day/night.
#108 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-02-27 23:35:41
You will thank me for not cluttering up you topic with this mess, I suppose: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 26#p205126 That leads to post #776 in "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."
I hope to piggyback on the notions of this topic, to also puncture the permafrost, and possibly allow eruptions of water at low locations. Hellas, Mariner Rift Valley, Other?
I would really like help from the members such as PhotonBytes. Comets are high energy, but need a struggle to work with can we have a look at trojan asteroids?
Jupiter Trojans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_t … 0%20behind.
Quote:Jupiter trojan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to searchThe asteroids of the inner Solar System and Jupiter
Jupiter trojans
Hilda asteroids Asteroid belt
Orbits of planets
The Jupiter trojans are divided into two groups: The Greek camp in front of and the Trojan camp trailing behind Jupiter in their orbit.
The Jupiter trojans, commonly called trojan asteroids or simply trojans, are a large group of asteroids that share the planet Jupiter's orbit around the Sun. Relative to Jupiter, each trojan librates around one of Jupiter's stable Lagrange points: either L4, existing 60° ahead of the planet in its orbit, or L5, 60° behind.Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … tem-en.png
So then more likely the green ones, maybe the yellows, (Hilda Asteroids).Hilda Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_asteroid Quote:
The Hilda asteroids (adj. Hildian) are a dynamical group of more than 5,000 asteroids located beyond the asteroid belt but within Jupiter's orbit, in a 3:2 orbital resonance with Jupiter.[1][2] The namesake is the asteroid 153 Hilda.
Quote:
The surface colors of Hildas often correspond to the low-albedo D-type and P-type; however, a small portion are C-type. D-type and P-type asteroids have surface colors, and thus also surface mineralogies, similar to those of cometary nuclei. This implies that they share a common origin.[4][6]
D Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-type_asteroid
P Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-type_asteroid
C Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroidMining Asteroids: (It is for NEO asteroids though).
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … f0e39e56c1PhotonBytes, what I am thinking is that the Hilda's with a 3:2 orbital relationship with Jupiter might allow humans and their machines to mess with that relationship and pull them out of it in such a way that a gravity pass of Jupiter might allow the smacking of Mars with them.
I am hoping that their are small ones that could be used, and of course the process should never allow the potential of smacking another world other than Jupiter or Mars.
It might be that in the setup process orbital habitats would be built on the materials of the Hilda, And prior to smacking Mars, materials would be mined out of the asteroid, to do that and also to send valuable materials to markets in the solar system. At some point the maneuver to send the asteroid would be done. By that time the asteroid would mostly include less valuable materials, and then you use the intertia of it to smack a hole in a low place on Mars, and if what I want is possible then create a body of water both from the materials of the Asteroid, and if there can be upwelling ground water.
Then by managing that water, perhaps holes of significant depth could be created to fulfill your objective.
Done.
Sounds good!
Saves us the trouble of going all the way out beyond Neptune! And yes if there are valuable metals, perhaps it's easier to extract them once their on the new crater on Mars. All we need now is Dr Robert Z's Nuclear Salt Water Rocket or Nuclear Thermal Rockets in combo with ion/plasma propulsion on a ship designed to push rocks. And yes obviously rocks with lots of ice would be great for creating a body of water. So we might need several missions, ones that push the ice rocks and another to push the rocks full of rare metals.
David
#109 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Space Plane design by Space-Plane.org » 2023-01-19 08:28:39
Orbiter Re-entry Path
We ran the CFD from Mach 0 - 25 and altitudes 0 - 105 km and plan to do ascent and reentry optimization next. Tom is right about the 40 deg max attack angle. We thank him for his input! We were planning no greater than 20 degrees to stay stable.
Meshmixer loads the STL with colors and is a tiny installation compared to Blender. Blender only shows the colors on the PLY import, which is an even bigger file than the STL with colors embedded.
We uploaded the PLY file and added it to the 'Files' page with HTTP instruction to download rather than open the file.
http://space-plane.org/files.htm
With a simple switch in Blender you can display STL in color but it doesnt understand Vertex Color when loading STL so we use a PLY file for that.
#110 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-01-14 09:28:40
Hi all, Thanks for all the useful feedback!
I am a huge fan of Dr Robert Z and his salt water rocket. I think that his idea would be very suitable in a project to control the fate of comets. As many of you probably already know the difference between comets and asteroids is the gravitational potential difference. Comets come from the far reaches of the Solar System and thus have a greater amount of potential and kinetic energy combined to pound the crap out of anything we want. Asteroids on the other hand are in an orbit just beyond Mars and compared to it are relatively slow moving to stationary and so have to move them a great deal more to do the impact even if it is a slow impact because they revolve around the sun anti clockwise just as Mars and all the other planets do. It's a scary thought to imagine that we might one day have the ability to blow up planets. Maybe there will be a sci fi movie one day about some comet being deliberately veered toward Earth.
But in this case we want to do it to create life. And Void is correct that we can use the ability in so many different ways, ways that some of us have not even conceived of yet, but comets will be man's first celestial(God Tool) construction tool in my opinion.
For example Calliban brought something up that is so innovative: the idea of crashing the comet onto a planet just to transfer thermal energy into the Mars system. Don't know if he realised this but if you take it one step further and crash the comet on the poles of the planet it's possible we can melt the poles over a decade and restore the ocean and atmosphere. We would first have to decide if we want to do this before or after we install a magnetic field at L1 of Mars. As I haven't done the numbers yet I do not know if restoring the planet's oceans and atmosphere would be counteracted in scale or not by exposure to the Solar Wind or if it will still take centuries before we have to worry about that if the diminishing rate of the atmosphere remains the same after the release of gasses trapped in ice without an artificial magnetic field.
There is also the possibility of causing comets to collide with each other above the poles of Mars for a "greener" solution that will be more politically appealing to warm up those ice caps. An air burst type of explosion. We have the computing power to compute required nudges on multiple comets, it's just a question of weather or not we can design a high ISP ship that can nudge them with a firm grip.
I have also considered using comets to give spin to Venus by impacting them on the side of Venusian mountains. There are just so many possibilities with deflecting comets, if we can just build robotic high ISP space tugs that can nudge comets close to their Aphelion where they are close to stationary and where the smallest delta V applied can send it almost anywhere in the inner system the possibilities will be endless. Perhaps even being construction of a Dyson Sphere/Swarm.
I think there are 2 things that this thread needs to address further to what's been discussed, first of all weather or not it is actually possible to create such a crater. Are there any geologist or planetary scientists? I am current installing a crater simulation software by a German outfit from
I have had critics from a few other forums that claim it's impossible even with multiple comet strikes to make a crater even 30km deep. But they failed to cite any formulas or data to confirm this or even cite a maximum achievable depth.
The second thing is weather or not such a feat would be easier or harder to do compared to the design and construction of a Martian L1 Magnetic field generator and even if such a field generator came online if it will still take centuries to melt the poles in which case we are back to square one with needing comets to accelerate the heating process. I heard there was a recent conference on this topic, I hope schematics will be made public if they have gotten to that stage yet.
Nukes (no offense to Elon Musk) wont have sufficient energy to create the crater I wanted it would take 1.2 million Tzar bombs to create such a cavity and you wouldnt want the radioactivity from the fallout anyways. And nukes might not also have suficient energy to melt all the poles if we blasted them above the poles and again we will have to deal with radio active fallout. Comets on the other hand can do the crater and melt the poles without radio activity and they have the energy required to do either!
David
#111 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2023-01-14 08:47:46
This post is by NewMarsMember using the new PhotonBytes ID ....
The password change feature did not work for David Ong, so I'm testing a temporary password.
If this post succeeds, I'll notify Mr. Ong by email, and with any luck he'll be able to log in over the next day or so.
(th)