Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-09 09:29:04

This new topic opens with an ambitious proposal by David Ong.

Mr ? Dr ? Ong is in evaluation for admission to the NewMars forum.

Here is an example of his work. All comments are welcome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-09 09:30:21

Fwd: Micro Climate Crater On Mars
Inbox

David Ong
Attachments
Sun, Jan 8, 4:35 PM (17 hours ago)
to me

This is an email I sent to Mars Society shortly after registration . My website also has a copy of my first draft of my proposal.

Photonbytes.com

My membership is: <removed for security reasons>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: David Ong <photonbytes@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 at 12:38 am
Subject: Micro Climate Crater On Mars
To: <info@marssociety.org>

I'm a new member in your society from Australia where I run a think tank as a client for another non profit called space-plane.org

I am studying the feasibility analysis of creating a micro climate on Mars by creating a crater deep enough to sustain plant life and liquid lakes if the depth is between 30-50km on Hellas Planitia. Since the Martian Scale Height is 11.1km , such depths should create real estate that has 0.7-1 bar of air pressure.

My thinking is that because craters tend to rebound, a second comet striking the new crater while still in molten state could clear the molten rebounding material and scatter it into space creating a much deep crater than nature normally could. Would this be necessary?

At the depths mentioned should we as humans be able to create a semi habitable zone with preassures between 0.7 and 1 bar of atmospheric pressure?

Is it possible for you to comment on the likelihood of success of such an idea? Assuming we will have the capability to deflect incoming comets to hit Mars twice in quick succession or multiple comet strikes days apart.

With Salt water nuclear rockets I think it's feasible for us to deflect comets for this purpose.

Is there anyway you can help me get some qualified feedback on the above mentioned ideas?

Attached are some concept illustrations.

Director: David Ong
39/838 Hay St, Perth 6000
http://photonbytes.com
+61450500496
--

Director: David Ong
39/838 Hay St, Perth 6000
http://photonbytes.com
+61450500496
7
Attachments
• Scanned by Gmail

There are seven images that came with this email.
I will have to copy them to imgur.com, and then post links here.
They are worth the effort, but I will schedule time for later today.

Update a bit later same day: Here are the seven images .... they may not be in the correct order.
If anyone has questions, please post them here. Mr ? Dr ? Ong will be able to see the questions and reply via email.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-09 11:31:10

Looks very interesting. I am looking forward to what will be discussed.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-09 13:08:25

For Void re #3

Thank you for expressing interest in this candidate for admission to the forum.

Since you've worded your post as "looking forward" I presume you see nothing in the post that is worth discussing.

The author has proposed dropping not one but ** two ** asteroids onto Mars.

If you do not feel that is worth discussion, then perhaps no one else does either.

Thanks again for adding a post to this new topic.

(th)

Void · 2023-01-09 14:13:30

What I said and as I said it is according to my subculture. It would be arrogant and disrespectful to force myself into someone else's presentation. I genuinely look forward to what can be produced by other members and especially new members.

Done

Calliban · 2023-01-10 03:31:57

Interesting idea. The pressure at the bottom of Hellas is equivelant to the vapour pressure of water at a temperature of 10°C. Provided that evaporation can be suppressed with a plastic dome, pressure should be sufficient for aquaculture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapour_ … e_of_water

Could we steer asteroids into Hellas with sufficient accuracy to drill a deep hole? Worth examining. But 60km is quite deep. I think it would take several asteroid hits in the km diameter range, because of the ratio between depth to diameter is somewhere between 0.1-0.2, depending upon the strata. These would need to be steered accurately, to within a few hundred metres of the desired target point. Hydrogen (fusion) bombs are another option. By surrounding a fusion bomb with a water jacket, we can maximise its efficacy as an excavation tool. We drill down and plant the bomb exactly where we need it. The resulting steam bubble would push rubble out ofbthe hole very efficiently.

But I wonder what this really does for us that we cannot get more easily in other ways. If you want habitable volume on Mars, why not just excavate as much volume as you need by mining it out? 10m of rock above a habitat will give you 1bar of pressure. Another option would be to put up a steel frame, cover with polythene and then bulldoze 10m of dirt and rubble over it. Food can be grown on the surface in pressurised polytunnels.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-10 03:45:58)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-10 08:01:31

For Calliban re #6

Thanks for taking time to evaluate the post by the candidate for membership in the forum.

Since you are one of the few current (active) members who has management experience, I would appreciate your evaluation of this candidate to become a member of this forum. You joined at a time when anyone could register without restriction.

We are fortunate you did so!

However, we have 18375 spammer ID's in our display case because at least that many free registrations were NOT productive.

Now we have a mechanism in place to grant admission.

The first five candidates all showed promise, and indeed, they remain enrolled.

However, for whatever reason, they have not contributed to the ongoing life of the forum.

The forum has a 20+ year history, and over a thousand members who have posted at least once.

We have many members who have posted over 1000 times.

What I'm looking for is some sign that applicants for participation in this forum have made a minimal effort to study the accumulated treasure trove of posts.

There are some clinkers in the mix of 200,000+ posts. I understand that.

However, a few members have produced consistently high quality posts which could (potentially) be a source of inspiration to future readers.

A "feature" of a forum like this one is that it provides a place for individuals to "publish" their ideas on the Internet with a decent chance they will be read by at least one person and perhaps by two.

This leads to the possibility that a person will join the forum to post their ideas without regard to anyone else, and without reading the work of anyone else.

SpaceNut has delegated to me the opportunity (and the responsibility) to admit new members.

I have attempted to learn from the first five admissions .... These were all folks who have great potential in their respective disciplines, but the missing element is their having time to contribute to the forum at some level.

From your perspective as a working manager of technical people, I am hoping you will provide me such guidance as you think appropriate for this situation.

We are not "hiring" an employee, but we are admitting a volunteer to a non-profit organization.

I am attempting to improve my performance by admitting persons who are generally regarded as helpful, as well as competent and possibly even creative.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-01-10 09:07:46

TH, I have provided feedback in the house keeping topic.

NewMarsMember · 2023-01-10 09:18:15

For Calliban re #8 and new member application

Thank you for your feedback in Housekeeping! I'll read it next.

In the meantime, FYI and for all .... Mr ? Dr ? Ong has emailed multiple short messages despite being under the weather.

The gist of what I gather is that he is definitely interested in the forum but finds it overwhelming I can sympathize. I've been at this for five years, and have only directly read a fraction of the content, and "met" only a fraction of the authors. My current Email Outreach campaign is planned to last three years, and in that time (if all goes well) I'll meet everyone.

Mr ? Dr ? Ong has requested guidance by members for what they would offer as their best work.

I have already notified Mr ? Dr ? Ong of Void's invention of the Ballistic Delivery concept, which I expect will become a full fledged business in coming years.

I have suggested Dr. Johnson's work on the Space Tug business opportunity.

Every current/active member is welcome to offer a link to what they consider most important or most interesting of their posts.

Don't overwhelm this gent! He is already juggling a great deal, and it is remarkable that he can allocate any time to this forum.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-01-10 09:20:05

We have discussed the use of Martian geothermal energy on other threads. But it is worth mentioning here, that an asteroid whose orbit intersects that of Mars would have an impact velocity exceeding 30km/s. Mars orbital speed is ~24km/s and escape velocity is 5.1km/s. A 1km diameter stony asteroid impacting at this velocity, would carry 6E20 joules of energy. That is 19,400 GW-years. Most of this would be deposited into the regolith as heat. A base located at the site of a large, recent impact crater, would have plentiful heat and power for many years.

The topic raised in this thread involves deliberately adjusting the orbits of asteroids onto collision course with Mars, to blast deep holes that would subsequently be sites for human settlements. The same process could be used to deposit heat into an area of Mars prior to setting up a manned base. This would be especially useful in the early days of Martian settlement, prior to the establishment of a domestic nuclear power sector.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-10 09:33:33)

Void · 2023-01-10 21:40:21

Should the ability be developed, I would like to suggest that to send small ones to the Moon's shadowed craters, might be of profit. A similar skill requirement, a different target, but the resources delivered then to be of great value to give water and Carbon to the Moon, and perhaps also some metals.

I am just saying that if you can impact Mars with precision, then other worlds might be additional targets.

Done.

PhotonBytes · 2023-01-14 09:28:40

Hi all, Thanks for all the useful feedback!

I am a huge fan of Dr Robert Z and his salt water rocket. I think that his idea would be very suitable in a project to control the fate of comets. As many of you probably already know the difference between comets and asteroids is the gravitational potential difference. Comets come from the far reaches of the Solar System and thus have a greater amount of potential and kinetic energy combined to pound the crap out of anything we want. Asteroids on the other hand are in an orbit just beyond Mars and compared to it are relatively slow moving to stationary and so have to move them a great deal more to do the impact even if it is a slow impact because they revolve around the sun anti clockwise just as Mars and all the other planets do. It's a scary thought to imagine that we might one day have the ability to blow up planets. Maybe there will be a sci fi movie one day about some comet being deliberately veered toward Earth.

But in this case we want to do it to create life. And Void is correct that we can use the ability in so many different ways, ways that some of us have not even conceived of yet, but comets will be man's first celestial(God Tool) construction tool in my opinion.

For example Calliban brought something up that is so innovative: the idea of crashing the comet onto a planet just to transfer thermal energy into the Mars system. Don't know if he realised this but if you take it one step further and crash the comet on the poles of the planet it's possible we can melt the poles over a decade and restore the ocean and atmosphere. We would first have to decide if we want to do this before or after we install a magnetic field at L1 of Mars. As I haven't done the numbers yet I do not know if restoring the planet's oceans and atmosphere would be counteracted in scale or not by exposure to the Solar Wind or if it will still take centuries before we have to worry about that if the diminishing rate of the atmosphere remains the same after the release of gasses trapped in ice without an artificial magnetic field.

There is also the possibility of causing comets to collide with each other above the poles of Mars for a "greener" solution that will be more politically appealing to warm up those ice caps. An air burst type of explosion. We have the computing power to compute required nudges on multiple comets, it's just a question of weather or not we can design a high ISP ship that can nudge them with a firm grip.

I have also considered using comets to give spin to Venus by impacting them on the side of Venusian mountains. There are just so many possibilities with deflecting comets, if we can just build robotic high ISP space tugs that can nudge comets close to their Aphelion where they are close to stationary and where the smallest delta V applied can send it almost anywhere in the inner system the possibilities will be endless. Perhaps even being construction of a Dyson Sphere/Swarm.

I think there are 2 things that this thread needs to address further to what's been discussed, first of all weather or not it is actually possible to create such a crater. Are there any geologist or planetary scientists? I am current installing a crater simulation software by a German outfit from

https://isale-code.github.io/

I have had critics from a few other forums that claim it's impossible even with multiple comet strikes to make a crater even 30km deep. But they failed to cite any formulas or data to confirm this or even cite a maximum achievable depth.

The second thing is weather or not such a feat would be easier or harder to do compared to the design and construction of a Martian L1 Magnetic field generator and even if such a field generator came online if it will still take centuries to melt the poles in which case we are back to square one with needing comets to accelerate the heating process. I heard there was a recent conference on this topic, I hope schematics will be made public if they have gotten to that stage yet.

Nukes (no offense to Elon Musk) wont have sufficient energy to create the crater I wanted it would take 1.2 million Tzar bombs to create such a cavity and you wouldnt want the radioactivity from the fallout anyways. And nukes might not also have suficient energy to melt all the poles if we blasted them above the poles and again we will have to deal with radio active fallout. Comets on the other hand can do the crater and melt the poles without radio activity and they have the energy required to do either!

David

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2023-01-14 09:31:43)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-14 10:32:06

Welcome aboard David or if you prefer PhotoByte as some of the users want to remain anonymous.

Even earth has had impacts that have created craters even after slowing them with its thick atmosphere. So, keeping that in mind with a mars thin atmosphere the impact will be larger for that same rock that if it had hit mars versus earth would occur.

Wolfe Creek Crater is a prominent feature of the Australian landscape. Lb544mmJnN9mq8VJSJ7yHV-970-80.jpg.webp

11 of Earth's Largest Impact Craters

wikipedia_List_of_impact_craters_on_Earth

So, speed, mass and drag for breaking are the element of the impact, material density of the object and of the surface are the second part of values to know.

The main issue after collision is one of covering the site to keep the energy of creation trapped for use. It's that construction time that means we lose.

Edit
The main issue for making the impact practical is time to build an enclosure to be able to capture the energy that it has brought to mars. not all are going to be small or circular in shape.

Void · 2023-01-14 11:24:41

It is very pleasing that you are here PhotonBytes.

I will mention lakes, that is a thing with me. But the best values for such a deep hole would be having one place on the planet where a reduced or eliminated pressure suit could be used. The other one is to start a near surface biosphere, and that would likely involve an ice covered lake, and perhaps even an open water lake.

If you punch such a hole, ground ice will be melted, and you might even punch deep enough for aquifers to leak water up into the hole. If you are going to have a city, then a controlled lake might not be such a bad thing. But planning could hope to keep it under control and of an optimal size, (Not too big, not to deep).

https://www.answers.com/Q/What_do_you_c … no_outlets
Quote:

A terminal lake, or an endorheic basin. Europe's Dead Sea and Caspian Sea, and Utah's Great Salt Lake, are notable examples.

If it becomes possible to warm the climate enough for rivers to run, then you don't want rivers to fill up your special hole, so, where to put it is a matter to consider.

It is possible that the berms around such a hole would serve as dams to keep the river waters out. But the artesian waters might be more than you wanted, so you might have to expend the effort to pump the water outside of the berms to keep the hole from filling up too much.

I don't want to take over your topic, so I will halt there, and leave others breathing room.

Good wishes for your topic.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-14 11:33:49)

Steve Stewart · 2023-01-15 09:50:24

PhotonBytes welcome to the forum. I checked out your web-site as well as the posts here, your ideas look interesting. I look forward to visiting with you in the future.

Void · 2023-01-15 12:54:29

You will thank me for not cluttering up you topic with this mess, I suppose: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 26#p205126 That leads to post #776 in "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."

I hope to piggyback on the notions of this topic, to also puncture the permafrost, and possibly allow eruptions of water at low locations. Hellas, Mariner Rift Valley, Other?

I would really like help from the members such as PhotonBytes. Comets are high energy, but need a struggle to work with can we have a look at trojan asteroids?

Jupiter Trojans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_t … 0%20behind.
Quote:

Jupiter trojan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The asteroids of the inner Solar System and Jupiter
Jupiter trojans
Hilda asteroids Asteroid belt
Orbits of planets
The Jupiter trojans are divided into two groups: The Greek camp in front of and the Trojan camp trailing behind Jupiter in their orbit.
The Jupiter trojans, commonly called trojan asteroids or simply trojans, are a large group of asteroids that share the planet Jupiter's orbit around the Sun. Relative to Jupiter, each trojan librates around one of Jupiter's stable Lagrange points: either L4, existing 60° ahead of the planet in its orbit, or L5, 60° behind.

Image Quote:
So then more likely the green ones, maybe the yellows, (Hilda Asteroids).

Hilda Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_asteroid Quote:

The Hilda asteroids (adj. Hildian) are a dynamical group of more than 5,000 asteroids located beyond the asteroid belt but within Jupiter's orbit, in a 3:2 orbital resonance with Jupiter.[1][2] The namesake is the asteroid 153 Hilda.

Quote:

The surface colors of Hildas often correspond to the low-albedo D-type and P-type; however, a small portion are C-type. D-type and P-type asteroids have surface colors, and thus also surface mineralogies, similar to those of cometary nuclei. This implies that they share a common origin.[4][6]

D Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-type_asteroid
P Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-type_asteroid
C Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid

Mining Asteroids: (It is for NEO asteroids though).
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … f0e39e56c1

PhotonBytes, what I am thinking is that the Hilda's with a 3:2 orbital relationship with Jupiter might allow humans and their machines to mess with that relationship and pull them out of it in such a way that a gravity pass of Jupiter might allow the smacking of Mars with them.

I am hoping that their are small ones that could be used, and of course the process should never allow the potential of smacking another world other than Jupiter or Mars.

It might be that in the setup process orbital habitats would be built on the materials of the Hilda, And prior to smacking Mars, materials would be mined out of the asteroid, to do that and also to send valuable materials to markets in the solar system. At some point the maneuver to send the asteroid would be done. By that time the asteroid would mostly include less valuable materials, and then you use the intertia of it to smack a hole in a low place on Mars, and if what I want is possible then create a body of water both from the materials of the Asteroid, and if there can be upwelling ground water.

Then by managing that water, perhaps holes of significant depth could be created to fulfill your objective.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-15 13:26:55)

PhotonBytes · 2023-02-27 23:35:41

Void wrote:

You will thank me for not cluttering up you topic with this mess, I suppose: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 26#p205126 That leads to post #776 in "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff."
I hope to piggyback on the notions of this topic, to also puncture the permafrost, and possibly allow eruptions of water at low locations. Hellas, Mariner Rift Valley, Other?
I would really like help from the members such as PhotonBytes. Comets are high energy, but need a struggle to work with can we have a look at trojan asteroids?
Jupiter Trojans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_t … 0%20behind.
Quote:
Jupiter trojan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The asteroids of the inner Solar System and Jupiter
Jupiter trojans
Hilda asteroids Asteroid belt
Orbits of planets
The Jupiter trojans are divided into two groups: The Greek camp in front of and the Trojan camp trailing behind Jupiter in their orbit.
The Jupiter trojans, commonly called trojan asteroids or simply trojans, are a large group of asteroids that share the planet Jupiter's orbit around the Sun. Relative to Jupiter, each trojan librates around one of Jupiter's stable Lagrange points: either L4, existing 60° ahead of the planet in its orbit, or L5, 60° behind.
Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … tem-en.png
So then more likely the green ones, maybe the yellows, (Hilda Asteroids).
Hilda Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_asteroid Quote:
The Hilda asteroids (adj. Hildian) are a dynamical group of more than 5,000 asteroids located beyond the asteroid belt but within Jupiter's orbit, in a 3:2 orbital resonance with Jupiter.[1][2] The namesake is the asteroid 153 Hilda.
Quote:
The surface colors of Hildas often correspond to the low-albedo D-type and P-type; however, a small portion are C-type. D-type and P-type asteroids have surface colors, and thus also surface mineralogies, similar to those of cometary nuclei. This implies that they share a common origin.[4][6]
D Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-type_asteroid
P Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-type_asteroid
C Type: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Mining Asteroids: (It is for NEO asteroids though).
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … f0e39e56c1
PhotonBytes, what I am thinking is that the Hilda's with a 3:2 orbital relationship with Jupiter might allow humans and their machines to mess with that relationship and pull them out of it in such a way that a gravity pass of Jupiter might allow the smacking of Mars with them.
I am hoping that their are small ones that could be used, and of course the process should never allow the potential of smacking another world other than Jupiter or Mars.
It might be that in the setup process orbital habitats would be built on the materials of the Hilda, And prior to smacking Mars, materials would be mined out of the asteroid, to do that and also to send valuable materials to markets in the solar system. At some point the maneuver to send the asteroid would be done. By that time the asteroid would mostly include less valuable materials, and then you use the intertia of it to smack a hole in a low place on Mars, and if what I want is possible then create a body of water both from the materials of the Asteroid, and if there can be upwelling ground water.
Then by managing that water, perhaps holes of significant depth could be created to fulfill your objective.
Done.

Sounds good!

Saves us the trouble of going all the way out beyond Neptune! And yes if there are valuable metals, perhaps it's easier to extract them once their on the new crater on Mars. All we need now is Dr Robert Z's Nuclear Salt Water Rocket or Nuclear Thermal Rockets in combo with ion/plasma propulsion on a ship designed to push rocks. And yes obviously rocks with lots of ice would be great for creating a body of water. So we might need several missions, ones that push the ice rocks and another to push the rocks full of rare metals.

David

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2023-02-27 23:36:35)

Void · 2023-02-28 09:52:44

PhotonBytes,

I am glad for your activity here.

First of all, I do not know if any certain asteroid type can be used. I do not proclaim myself an expert, only amateur with more questions than answers.

But it has recently been asserted that the outer asteroid belt is full of icy objects which originated from far out in the solar system. So, the asteroid belt apparently is a collection of both rocky and icy materials, with smaller gravity wells than planets and most moons. So, it looks like if humans establish on Mars and in Mars orbits, the same machinery that got them there should be able to get humans into the asteroid belt. Presumably at that point they would have all the materials they wanted/needed. So, they may have the ability to do what you desire, dig a big hole with impactors.

If they did dig, then, I suppose 3 sources of water might fill the hole. Impactor water, Permafrost Melt, Aquifer Water.

I don't know how much any of them will do. So, we have to learn about what is under the regolith, and what is in the impactors.

These people might have some ideas: https://www.space.com/36563-terraform-m … tthew.html Quote:

A research team has devised a plan to make a portion of Mars more Earth-like by slamming an asteroid into it.
This Mars Terraformer Transfer (MATT) concept would create a persistent lake on the Red Planet's surface in 2036, potentially accelerating Mars exploration, settlement and commercial development, the team said.

Quote:

"Whereas prior designs of habitation structures (habs) were limited to thousands of cubic meters, MATT habs can scale to millions of cubic meters — stadium scale, or greater," team members wrote in the press release. Furthermore, the impact site's treated lake water would be sufficient to cover and protect subaqueous domes, the team added.

It looks like they are going to try to go half way. Not open air, but perhaps domes under a lake in a hole.

Well, that might be a good "First Try". Depending on the results, then perhaps a more ambitious hole could be dug in the fashion that you entertain to allow a place without pressure suits, but with breathing gear.

It probably makes sense to work up to skills by steps.

However such a deep hole may require pumping water out of it to keep it from being flooded. We need to know about aquifers on Mars. Such a problem to have on Mars. Too much water

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-28 10:08:41)

Calliban · 2023-02-28 10:17:22

I wonder if a pulsed laser parked in orbit could be used to drill a deep hole over a period of years? There are space rated solar arrays that mass only 1kg/m2, with efficiency 30%. A square kilometre SPS using these lightweight cells would mass perhaps 2000 tonnes and would produce 180MW at Mars distance from the sun. A pulsed fibre laser with that much power could do a lot of drilling over the course of a year. Bury a block of ice into the drilling hole and use the laser to heat it into plasma. This will explode and blast out the surrounding rock.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-02-28 10:18:12)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-28 12:39:39

I remember an old debate on Mars about putting tall buildings inside 'Craters' I have tried searching for it but have not been able to find it. This topic is a very interesting discussion.

Void · 2023-02-28 16:05:27

I think asteroid or artificial pyroclastic explosion might both be valid.

My view is that in order to master the asteroids that might be used, it then presumes a deep ability to work with the whole asteroid belt and NEO's. In that case with mirrors solar energy is massive, and the minerals desired are very available, so a very big economy, which might afford some modifications of Mars.

So, if you could make one hole in Hellas, why not some in other places like the Northern Hemisphere?

Some, I recall indicate that this might shatter the bedrock of the planet and interfere with mining, but if you have the asteroids, maybe you don't care.

And all solutions might be valid, holes with water in them or deeper holes with air in them.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-28 16:08:33)

Void · 2023-02-28 16:23:40

I want this topic on top, so members can see it easily so, I am posting again.

I have considered detonation of Hydrogen bombs in Korolev crater. But maybe just impacting it occasionally with an asteroid would be useful to keep an ice-covered sea going. Such a sea would be an energy source, and so maybe you start the sea up with impactors, and then convert over to some type of nuclear reactors to keep the sea warm. Fission or Fusion, I don't care.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-28 16:26:01)

PhotonBytes · 2023-11-04 10:52:53

UPDATE WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ON THIS TOPIC!

https://chat.openai.com/share/55ff5e31- … c9ce51e8ba

Seems the best way is to crash the kuiper belt object onto one of the poles of Mars to create an ocean that will remain in liquid form.

Steve Stewart · 2023-11-05 07:44:31

PhotonBytes,
Good to see you again. In Post #2 you are proposing crashing comets into Mars to dig a hole deep enough for the air pressure to allow Earth life to survive. I thought I'd mention that the comets themself would also cause an increase in atmospheric pressure.

On Earth, when a gas changes from a liquid to a gas, it usually expands somewhere around 700 to 900 times its volume. Here are some expansion ratio's:

nitrogen 696:1
argon 847:1
hydrogen 851:1
oxygen 862:1
(source)

Nitrogen's expansion ratio of 696:1 means that a cubic meter of liquid nitrogen will expand to 696 cubic meters of gas when its warmed up to STP. A cubic meter of liquid argon will expand to 847 cubic meters of gas (when at STP), and so on.

On Mars this expansion ratio is much greater due to the low atmospheric air pressure of Mars. The atmospheric pressure on Earth at STP is about 153 times that of Mars. (6.518 millibars on Mars compared to 1,000 millibars on Earth, or 0.095 psi on Mars compared to 14.7 psi on Earth). Therefore gases will expand about 153 times as much on Mars as they do on Earth (pV=nRT).

Comets are sometimes described as "dirty snowballs" and contain frozen methane. I believe the expansion ratio for methane is about 850:1 (solid to gas). On Mars the expansion ratio would be about 153 times that, or about 130,000. Meaning that just one cubic km of frozen methane in a comet would expand to about 130,000 cubic km's of methane gas. As you can see, frozen gases in a comet can add quite a bit of volume to the Martian atmosphere, which in turn increases air pressure.

Adding methane to the Martian atmosphere would also cause Mars to warm, as methane is about 25 times as potent of a greenhouse gas than is carbon dioxide.

If we had the ability to crash comets into Mars, you probably would not have to dig 30-50km to get the air pressure you're wanting. Frozen gases from the comets you crashed to dig the hole would give you a boost in air pressure, and therefore you would not have to dig as deep. If you were to keep crashing more comets into Mars you could keep increasing the air pressure, which would decrease the required distance to dig.

Comets would also bring water to Mars. Many people don't realize this, but water vapor is also a greenhouse gas and would help warm Mars. We need to be careful about lakes on Mars though. Lakes are a reflective surface, and would reflect the suns rays (heat energy) back into space, and would have a cooling effect on Mars. If it were ever to rain on Mars, the clouds would also cause a cooling effect, as clouds also reflect heat energy from the sun back into space.

Last edited by Steve Stewart (2023-11-05 07:45:07)

PhotonBytes · 2023-11-05 09:22:45

Steve Stewart wrote:

PhotonBytes,
Good to see you again. In Post #2 you are proposing crashing comets into Mars to dig a hole deep enough for the air pressure to allow Earth life to survive. I thought I'd mention that the comets themself would also cause an increase in atmospheric pressure.
On Earth, when a gas changes from a liquid to a gas, it usually expands somewhere around 700 to 900 times its volume. Here are some expansion ratio's:
nitrogen 696:1
argon 847:1
hydrogen 851:1
oxygen 862:1
(source)
Nitrogen's expansion ratio of 696:1 means that a cubic meter of liquid nitrogen will expand to 696 cubic meters of gas when its warmed up to STP. A cubic meter of liquid argon will expand to 847 cubic meters of gas (when at STP), and so on.
On Mars this expansion ratio is much greater due to the low atmospheric air pressure of Mars. The atmospheric pressure on Earth at STP is about 153 times that of Mars. (6.518 millibars on Mars compared to 1,000 millibars on Earth, or 0.095 psi on Mars compared to 14.7 psi on Earth). Therefore gases will expand about 153 times as much on Mars as they do on Earth (pV=nRT).
Comets are sometimes described as "dirty snowballs" and contain frozen methane. I believe the expansion ratio for methane is about 850:1 (solid to gas). On Mars the expansion ratio would be about 153 times that, or about 130,000. Meaning that just one cubic km of frozen methane in a comet would expand to about 130,000 cubic km's of methane gas. As you can see, frozen gases in a comet can add quite a bit of volume to the Martian atmosphere, which in turn increases air pressure.
Adding methane to the Martian atmosphere would also cause Mars to warm, as methane is about 25 times as potent of a greenhouse gas than is carbon dioxide.
If we had the ability to crash comets into Mars, you probably would not have to dig 30-50km to get the air pressure you're wanting. Frozen gases from the comets you crashed to dig the hole would give you a boost in air pressure, and therefore you would not have to dig as deep. If you were to keep crashing more comets into Mars you could keep increasing the air pressure, which would decrease the required distance to dig.
Comets would also bring water to Mars. Many people don't realize this, but water vapor is also a greenhouse gas and would help warm Mars. We need to be careful about lakes on Mars though. Lakes are a reflective surface, and would reflect the suns rays (heat energy) back into space, and would have a cooling effect on Mars. If it were ever to rain on Mars, the clouds would also cause a cooling effect, as clouds also reflect heat energy from the sun back into space.

Many thanks for this response with the reference about expansion ratios! Has Robert Zubrin considered this greener method to terraform Mars vs Elon Musk's nuclear option? Since this is a forum about his vision I think he should be made aware of this alternative sitting right under his nose. Everyone is aware of Elon's idea because Elon is ... a billionaire, but this idea makes a lot more sense and even though Im not a billionaire I think the idea is much more realistic and politically palatable. The best part being that smacking the poles would limit the effects in the polar regions only. It will not effect the entire planet except for (as you pointed out above with the comet content and liquid gas expansion ratios) thickening the atmosphere which is considered a positive as it will make the entire planet not just the polar regions more habitable. Although the crater in either of the poles will still be the only place where one can not worry about decompression death as it will be close to 1 bar and shielded from solar wind with the crater walls and longer journey for such solar radiation though the atmosphere sideways to reach the poles. Mars has no van allan belt to protect Mars from solar wind but the Poles are the least effected by such and the new crater will offer additional shielding/protection.

Elon's idea will cause too much radiation fall out, but smacking a kuiper belt object will not - it's a green type of explosion. No radioactivity side effects. Also more power compared to nukes.

Robert's own invention the nuclear salt water rocket can redirect kuiper belt objects to hit one of the poles. A kuiper belt object has low velocity so it's easy to slow down and redirect. The challenge is getting the rocket out to those distances first which isnt actually a huge challenge given the power of the salt water reactor to offer the constant accelerations needed reach speeds to reach those distances quickly.

Last edited by PhotonBytes (2023-11-05 09:35:20)

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