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#101 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Unstablity is a good thing - Mars mission more probable w/ unstabilty » 2003-07-21 17:55:18
The lack of gravity in orbit and beyond in itself produces processing problems which have yet to be properly addressed, let alone a whole host of other issues.
If gravity was needed, they could spin it like a centerfuge. These are exceedingly simple problems that can be solved with todays technology. The arguement I made centers on the unwilliness of the establishment to risk losing its own power.
The new world represented a vast new open, and fertile/rich area, where current technology and practises could easily work. Us europeans had spent hundreds of years fighting each other over the best bits of land here, and there was a whole continent of fertile land and resources, a boat ride away with only some ill equiped natives to protect it.
What is the difference, other than the exploitation primarly industrial?
At least no wars will be frought with the indains.
speaking of nuclear war, check nukes out for reasonably accurate information. Note that with the most powerful bomb, it is considered that 1/2 in the near-blast area would probably die. If the suburbs are taken into account than the possiblity of surving increases well beyond that as most people are living in the suburbs.
#102 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Unstablity is a good thing - Mars mission more probable w/ unstabilty » 2003-07-21 15:42:23
Yet now many nations on Earth have the ability to develop the means to obliterate their 'eneimes'. Wet navies from histories past are not a proper anaology for today's military environment.
I disagree. As horrific as nuclear weapons seem, I doubt they will kill more than 25% of the population. Consider that japanese cities in the 1940s were pretty shoddy structures to begin with, and they were packed with refugees from other devastated citys. Even the black death, even the holy wars (catholicism and protestants) and even WWI and even WWII failed in its attempts to earraidcate the nations. Russia lost 20-30% of its people, and it is still around. Germany lost the same % and it is a sucess economically. If we don't use history, the only thing we can rely on is each others good word which will make this conversation largly inrevelnt with no precedents. If memory serves right, europe lost 30% of its people in the holy wars when the battle weapons were primarly crossbow and swords. This failed to stop europe from advancing in history, and even nuclear war is just another cause of death.
Interesting take, but I don't think history is in your corner on this. Why would anyone consider sending Men to Mars in a time of peril or struggle? It offers no benefit other than some spirtual or esoteric goals unrelated to anything remotely practical.
The goal is to make their own branch of the establishment and to create personal power. I answered this here:
Of course, there were many powerful members of the establishment that did not stand with any of these nations, and simply chose to go in exile in the colonies of america, which were founded by exiles, for exiles and ruled, eventually by exiles.
Further, many establishment members came because of the potentail to generate power for themselves.
Once one has power, he must keep it or sustain it. Those who are deprived do a great deal to regain it in any form.
Next question:
Space is not the New World. The constraitns are vastly different between the two environments. The geo-politcal environment is vastly different than historical precedent. The technology we are all dealing with is vastly different from previous experience. It just isn't the same.
Why?
in any case, nothing is exactly the same in historical precedent. If it were, we would never make mistakes. Show me were it departs from historical precedent. (and don't use nuclear war, I already adressed that)
Let me offer a different perspective, The Establishment (whatever or whoever that is supposed to be) is interested in advancing the economy. However, they see more promise, and more profit through the advancement of terrestrial economies, versus the ambigious and uncertain hope of profits from space.
Simple math says space manufacture, space mining (of any derivation), or anything remotely related to putting people in space, is a costly and dubious venture filled with a great deal of risk versus the actual profit margin that might be realized.
The establishment doesn't care about money, it cares about power. The establishment (the upper class in control of things, consider them the government and their prime supporters for the sake of this arguement) wants to continue on in their positions and are not interested in offering something that could give a serroius oppoturnity to non-establishment to join their ranks.
Clark, I think you are forgeting that there is no gravity in space. that means heavy industry is going to be able to operate with a efficenty unparrelled in human history. Heavy industry is not difficult, nor is it extremly technology intensive. But the primary concern with it is the transportation, which is energy and infrastructure intensive. zero gravity goes a long way to solve those two primary problems.
Also, the asteroids are filled with prime ore that needs little preparation. A small measure of preparation will render these asteroids as a usable preposition. Remember, the biggest cost of the raw materials industry is extraction, then transportation of the material. Those problems are largly nonexsitant given the nature of the asteroids.
I just see poltical problems, not actual production problems. The remaining steel industrys will fight like hell to stop this, but once it happens the sky is the limit. (pun unintended) There is easy ore in reach and with some time, a small processing center the size of the ISS could be built. The next step would be to reproduce (the thing about man is that he can make tools) the center using asteroidal material untill breakeven capacity is reached, then to actually start shooting it down. the simplier, the better the plan.
It has some risk, but what endevour did not have? There are many people willing to take large risks, just ask a soldier or a seaman. It is certain enough "damn-fool idealists" will do it simply because there is no other option.
It's a nice dream, but it won't pay the mortgage.
desperate people do desperate things. If they have something to lose, they won't do it. If they have nothing to lose, they are more likly to do a risky endevour that has the possiblity of working.
The colonization of the America's was one of economic development and expansion. There were vast quantities of raw material, many new to Old Europe, that could develop into a profitable industry. It was in many respects, a virtual land of 'gold'.
How is space any different from that? There are unique oppoturnitys for heavy industry in zero gravity, and the conversion of raw material to something of worth is always the most profitable industy. it is just another of the many parrlells that can be drawn with the colonization.
#103 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Unstablity is a good thing - Mars mission more probable w/ unstabilty » 2003-07-21 10:59:23
I speak of the devil-a mars mission will be done in times of great struggle and suffering, not great prosperity. Why? Because a failed mars mission will be a losing hand for anyone that funds it. When I say great struggle, I am refering to a struggle within the establishment itself. The only way for the establishment to survive such a struggle is to expand the boundaries of establishment members and domain. . . .the failure to do so is a revolution like the french revolution and the russian revolution.
The industrialization of space is not going to be a orderly and pleasant affair. This becomes apparent looking at the historical record of the colonization of america. During the colonization of america, france, briton and spain were all fighting each other for supremancy in europe, and the fighting polarized the poltical standings of everyone concerned. anyone not standing with another was a enemy.
Of course, there were many powerful members of the establishment that did not stand with any of these nations, and simply chose to go in exile in the colonies of america, which were founded by exiles, for exiles and ruled, eventually by exiles.
Further, many establishment members came because of the potentail to generate power for themselves.
After some time, there followed the indentured servants of the old world looking for new hope. Many were peasants in the household of the establishment, but soon it extended to the scots-irish peasants who fled to applachia, those without any power save their own body.
And many of them became the establishment themselves.
John Jacob astor was a pennieless butcher who deserted the british army. . . .
John Rockfeller was a child of a quack doctor in ohio. . .
And the middle class in europe cowed the noblity. (to the most part)
The exiles had to work as hard (most of them) as the peasants to win in new ground, and the peasants had all the advantages of being able to work hard. The money of the exiles were worthless in america without any real backing.
But they would have never came if the exiles had not.
Therefore, instability among the establishment will bring about a mars mission, and the industrialization of space.
Today the establishment is not interested in advancing the economy; why risk losing their power over making somebody they don't know powerful?
Instablity is a threat to them.
Just look at the french revolution were the king refused to grant voting power to the bourgoius in the estates general. The bourgouis were the power in the land, but unless they organized themselves in government, the king rules.
Stablity cements their power, and I am going to point that it is inmoral to emlinate the establishment simply because of the suffering and lack of socail order.
Stablilty is the trump card of the establishment, but instability (TO A POINT!!) and expansion of frontier breeds oppoturnity for the fittist.
I am not advocating anarchy, I am observing the historical viewpoint of how the establishment wants things run and how to extend that to those fitter.
How, then, do we determine how much instablilty is dangerous? Impossible.
The only thing to do is to refer to history. History is more a history of the establishment warfare (among themselves)
Let us not overthrow the establishment, but let it opened to more of man.
The problem of space industrialization is that it relys on a rather unstable world climate for poltics, and a mars mission is such that it would be the start of industrilization.
I probably sound like a extremist now, but the best time to advocate a mars mission is if the country is about to be split at the highest level.
What scenarios can you fellas envision were that happens?
#104 Re: Terraformation » So what if we find out there's no nitrogen on Mars » 2003-07-21 06:57:10
Maybe. How bout we just dump 3-4 km comets on mars (loaded with water, nitrogen and carbons) and then terraform it? There is nothing stopping us from doing it.
#105 Re: Not So Free Chat » SETI@HOME->NEWMARS - Discussion - newmars seti@home team » 2003-07-21 06:49:27
The movie Contact is misleading in that sense..
Very true. People can't really waste their time sitting around listening to to the almost limitless bandwidths that *other* intelligent life would use.
Btw what if intelligent life uses a much higher bandwidth than we are searching for?
Visited by moderator 2022/01/28
#106 Re: Human missions » Appendix, Gall Bladder, And Other Non Essentials - Pre Mars Mission Medical Procedures » 2003-07-19 20:00:19
And unless your trained surgeon is cross trained in numerous other scientific or engineering disciplines, he/she is likely to be pure deadweight on the mission if no medical emergencies arise.
I agree fully. The surgeon could double as a biologist to look for life on mars, and determine once and for all if it is there!
#107 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-19 19:57:31
feel free to criticize. . . .(like my spelling 
)
#108 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-19 19:49:18
Let the cry stand,
That man must rise from his earthbound cradle
In the blood of his painful birth of a thousand labors
Let him deny the silver love of the uncaring maidens
And let him forge the stolen gold of the river
Let him commit heroric promethean deeds
To light the former dark sky of the heavens
And ride the sky in mighty chairoits propeled by the helios
Unshackle the minds of small and eager boys
So that great and brave men might emerge and dream
So that men may have the hearts of 10,000 lions
and the spirit of dragons, invincable and couragous
And let us hang in the tree,
A spear at our side, for nine days
And unleash not the twilight of man
And unleash not the rebirth of man
But only, I ask, of new hope for the future
#109 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Svalbard - Ja? » 2003-07-19 14:23:20
Yes. And the naysayers claim that mars is a total desert, but it is clear NASA is expecting something else. Why would NASA go through the trouble of svalbard if it is a desert?
Hans EF Amundsen, a researcher at the University of Oslo who will lead the group, said many places on Svalbard resemble those on Mars. "There are volcanoes, glaciers, warm springs that shoot up from the permafrost and landslides dotting the landscape," Amundsen told newspaper Aftenposten.
It reminds me that in 1790s the great plains were refered to as the "Great American Desert" and written as worthless. . . .
#110 Re: Human missions » What do you think of returning to the moon? » 2003-07-19 10:25:15
Why not, if you desire to utilize the Hubble for asteroid detection inside Earth's orbit--after its retirement--simply boost it to escape velocity
The hubble is only a opical telescope, it can't really see asteroids unless they reflect a lot of light, which most don't in any case. Radar telescopes are better. Why bother with increasing the orbit? It can see perfectly fine where it is now.
Hubble instruments This site explains what is on the hubble.
#111 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Metallic Hydrogen - Research Discovers Metallic Hydrogen. . » 2003-07-19 06:08:32
Problem is though, if they did find a way to create metallic hydrogen and it did improve bomb designs would they allow others to use that technology for civilian purposes? Something tells me they wouldn't.
that would suck in all manner of suckitude. There is actually so much civillain potentail that it would be quite a waste to hide it. Anyways some interesting info, styrofoam was orig on nuke rockets for stablizing the warhead during liftoff.
#112 Re: Human missions » Appendix, Gall Bladder, And Other Non Essentials - Pre Mars Mission Medical Procedures » 2003-07-19 06:05:17
hmmmm . . . . . . .I never thought of that. I think that having surgery before going to mars is probably quite a risk in itself, especially if done twice. If anyone knows enough, can it be done at the same time?
#113 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 20:26:28
The cypress still stands
immuntable, a most lovingkindness
of His testionomy to Man
To the groom of mankind
this tree will be wed
And last. . . .
The truth still stands
with one way still above all
and none greater than the cause of the effect.
#114 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Metallic Hydrogen - Research Discovers Metallic Hydrogen. . » 2003-07-18 20:07:07
why the 
? is it a bad thing or a good thing?
#115 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 18:10:16
anyways I was thinking again. . .
In the dark of a thousand nights,
I dream dreams about stars of firey might
that are many chariots over many realms
There is something in what is merely called "Nothing"
Not everything, but, still, something
after all, nothing comes from nothing, and everything must come from something.
the cosmos are perfect,
but who whom sees it cannot be the same, yet yearns to be.
but only the being that did create can be so.
Who are we to witness such majesty in creation?
Who is it that has the audaicy to show his might?
Who is it that dances in the stars and gives us dreams to chase the mighty unknown?
Only the creator, who rendered us from the chaos before.
Only the creator, who rendered us from the dust, but what dust, from the fire of stars
Only the creator, who is.
What is the end of all things, that has the ultimate means?
The oceans roar, the stars twinkle, to what end?
Man shouts on his tiny stage, a darwf, amongest the glory of his creator.
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
and for kings to discover it. . . .
But where are the kings, the ones with wisdom?
And who are we to comprehend such things, to know in its full glory and detail?
#116 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion Starship Exhibit - publicly funded tourist attraction. » 2003-07-18 16:57:27
to what degree will it be functuional? Will it be able to lift off in a day or so after recieving the proper bombs for it?
It sounds very interesting, is there a way I could get involved?
#117 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Metallic Hydrogen - Research Discovers Metallic Hydrogen. . » 2003-07-18 16:46:49
If metallic hydrogen is stablisized, then we could go to the moon in a chemical rocket the size of a pickup truck. Imagine that!
#118 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Retire The Shuttle, Designer Says - End spaceflight until we have good ship » 2003-07-18 16:36:30
my vote is to get 2 different rockets, one heavylift and one crew rocket to max efficency of the rockets.
#119 Re: Not So Free Chat » Who are you fellas, anyways? - Introduce yourselves to the world :) » 2003-07-18 16:18:54
Given that I made this board, I might as well reply first.
My name is Nathan Weitzman.
I am an eighteen year old male from Cleveland, ohio. My business is to prepare for my senoir year of HS. My education (my spelling attests to this) is the junior year of HS thus far. . .
I am the heavyweight captian of the wrestling team and I like to exersize in the off season.
#120 Re: Not So Free Chat » Who are you fellas, anyways? - Introduce yourselves to the world :) » 2003-07-18 16:14:06
I would be interested to hear who you guys are. It seems half of you are students of some kind, and the other half retired or active personall from NASA/Miltary/aerospace.
I would love to get to know a little more about you fellas. You don't have to respond but I am curroius b/c you guys seem like a pretty smart batch of cookies.
If you want to respond, at least tell the following. . .
1. Your name (and gender if applicable, with names like 'pat' or 'sam')
2. Your age (if female, can lie as much as like)
3. rough area of the world you inhabit.
4.how you make a living, and if you are retired, etc
5. education to date
6. any other personal info you would love to share with us!
#121 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 15:54:22
I liked your poem, was there any particular inspiration for it?
Well, I am a christian and I wonder alot about the relationship with God, and I also wonder about the attributes He has given us. . . .and all of that got wrapped up in looking at the stars and wondering about the future of man, with all his depravity and inability. I hope that wasen't too confusing for you guys. Anyways I am pretty much a calvinist when it comes to theology, even though I was raised a methoodist.(My small act of teenage rebelion)
#122 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 12:47:18
And thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!
#123 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 12:46:19
It was mine. I am going to use your poetry on my nonprofit site (the asteroid mining one) when I get back in school in august. . .
#124 Re: Life support systems » Another Power System on Mars... - Bio-Generator » 2003-07-18 12:37:53
OH!!!! ok I see now!!! WHAT A REVELATION!!! You have made my day! I appreciate that info.
#125 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2003-07-18 12:35:21
The only answer is none, for all is done in vain.
whoops. I meant the glory of man is nothing. My mistake. . .
Upon rocket they were borne
Up high beyond reach of sky and man.
To touch with wonder what lay before
And stand in awe of what was left behind.
hot damn I like your poetry clark. Could I use it on my website if you would be so kind to provide your real name and other proper information?