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haha, yeah really. It'd suck to get stranded only to find your transmitter has dead batteries. I love that idea about the small air bubbles. Maybe you could design the rover to immediately inflate the bubble itself if a sensor detects that the pressure is beginning to drop to dangerous levels. And maybe put the transmitter inside of the bubble to begin with so you don't accidently forget to take it in the bubble with you.
However, being that the moon does influence and effect the body's rhythms (especially a woman's), a female astronaut going to Mars will definitely be away from the effect the moon has on the Earth's tides and her body. Visual reinforcement would be a good idea, I think. And believe it or not, more babies *are* born during a full moon than at any other time of the month; this is an established medical fact.
Wow, my niece was born under a full moon a few months ago. I guess it wasn't coincidence. Come to think of it, no human that I know of has been completely seperated from the tidal forces of the Earth-Moon-Sun system. There's no telling what subtle ways the tidal forces affect our bodies. Has anyone done research or raised red flags about how the body might perform outside the tidal system we exist in?
I don't want to sound like First Interior Decorator of Outer Space, but what about surroundings? Though I don't consider myself "a Trekkie/Trekker," I always thought the elegant, colorful, pretty Star Trek sets (in the original series) was much preferable to the Ugly Dark Oily Hardware-Store-Look which seems preferable in many sci-fi sets (movies or TV) in the past 20 years.
I think that's why I don't watch much sci-fi, I can't stand those dark, overly metallic sets. Thinking that the future is going to look like that is depressing. The environment needs to be uplifting to the spirit not a destroyer of it.
It's for real. Even though I applaude the enthusiasm of that bill, I think it does go a bit overboard in places. I think it's better to just have one or two big goals, like getting people to Mars in the first place, then to stretch ourselves to thin trying to build all these Martian moon stations, reusuable lunar vehicles, etc. I just can't see them getting full funding for all of those programs so its better to see that the main ones get all the funding they need, like a manned Mars mission.
Thanks for clearing that up Mars Hotel. I definately support manned missions over robotic ones whenever it's possible. I think we really need to strive to develop the necessary technologies that will allow us to live and prosper in space. As for the water recycling question, I'd put down a few bucks that they're cheating and not drinking the recycled water if they do in fact recycle it. Water recycling is one of the things that's always made me think twice about wanting to take extended trips into space. I guess you'd just have to force yourself not to think about where the water came from when you drink it.
So what do you think early Mars colonists might put in a survival kit for excursions away from home? I imagine there might be a small transmitter with a homing signal incase some unfortunate soul gets stranded. I couldn't imagine trying to give someone directions to my location if I was out in the middle of nowhere. I imagine the rover might have a homing signal of its own but it's good to have redundancy. Maybe a small one-person tent that you could pressurize up somehow with a portable technology I'm unfamiliar with, especially if the rover in an unpressurized type? Well, that one might not be so practical. And of course don't forget the big bowie knife.
Believing therefore that the exploration and settlement of Mars is one of the greatest human endeavors possible in our time, we have gathered to found this Mars Society, understanding that even the best ideas for human action are never inevitable, but must be planned, advocated, and achieved by hard work. We call upon all other individuals and organizations of like-minded people to join with us in furthering this great enterprise. No nobler cause has ever been. We shall not rest until it succeeds.
*wipes tear from eye* well said Josh!
Yes. For that reason, I think it'd be smart to have the living and working quarters of the astronauts painted with Earth scenes (each astronaut picking out his or her favorite, of course). Living in modules that have only tans, whites, and beiges for color would be depressing and monotonous. Paint the walls with jungle scenes, a full-moon-lit sky, city panoramas, beach and ocean scenes, etc. Being a woman, I'd want a moon-phase simulator in my little living space (which could simply be a changeable computer screen-saver, programmed in sync with the moon's phases as they currently appear on Earth), to keep my body's natural rhythms in balance.
I think this would be a good topic for the civilization thread. I wasn't aware that women actually needed to see the moon to keep their rhythms in sync. Anyways, I definately hope Mars dwellings don't suffer from boring and neutral paint jobs. I think painting, which seems to be something of a lost art now, could find a new Renaissance on Mars. As well as things like murals and frescoes. Especially if you build primitive dwelling places from bricks or underground caverns, or anything like that.
Yeah, unfortunately, all plans of the Saturn V have been scrapped. There's supposedly a museum somewhere that has a set but said museum is unable to find them, and I heard that one set was donated to a paper drive to be recycled back into pulp. I can't believe the absolute stupidity of it all, anybody who would just trash those drawings deserves to be slapped around, I mean sheesh, I think even my half-retarded dog could understand the historical and technical significance of those things. Not to mention the expense that was incurred in just designing them only to have them thrown out!
If there was a spacecraft that I wish would have all of its plans ground into pulp, it'd have to be the space shuttle. Yeah, have plans ground into pulp, then have roof cave in on space shuttles. and voila, perhaps we'd have something more efficient to fly to space with. Anyways, very tragic what happened to those Russian workers on the Buran building's roof.
Why do I bring all this up? Well, I used to imagine a scenario wherein a heavily insulated and refrigerated human expedition to Venus dug up fossils, or even evidence of technology! Fanciful, I know! But it seemed like a good enough reason to face all the rigours and actually go there.
Where've you been!! Didn't you see those photos of Venusians floating around the clouds in their blimps?
I was always under the impression that the Planetary Society was more interested in promoting robotic exploration over manned space exploration. I guess I could get a clue and maybe visit their website before I die, but I don't know, to be honest, and I probably deserve a good roast for saying it, I'm more interested in promoting the development and colonization of space than I am of science exploration (don't get me wrong, I love the science to!). So Mars Society would probably be a better choice if I just wasn't such a #### cheapskate. But at least you shamed me into not exploiting such organizations for free pictures in the future.
I thought New Mars was more of an e-zine than an organization. I was rummaging around on the New Mars homepage just now and didn't see any links for joining anything other than the Mars Society. Maybe the links are buried farther in? Or maybe I'm just blind?
It doesn't seem to matter how often I champion the cause of a living Mars, it appears most people are convinced it's sterile.
I'm more open to the possibility that Mars could be thriving with life after the discovery of that water. I think that's pretty much why I wanted to know if people would risk drinking it without knowing if potentially deadly bacteria lurked in it. I'd probably take my chances, but I wouldn't want to drink it if its full of sand though.
To reply to Cindy's post, I really can't see an asteroid colony growing or sustaining itself very well either. I think about the only practical reason to do establish one would be as a science outpost in some place where you would need very good shielding from radiation.
It seems that the prospect of America being denied any formal rights over the Moon and Mars, coupled with the stated intention of China (the last significant communist power) to stake at least a commercial claim to parts of both, might be starting to register in the consciousness of the Washington bureaucracy! And the thought of the UN standing on Mars and dictating terms to Uncle Sam is just too much to bear!!
I used to be a U.N. supporter, but lately it just seems to be turning into more of an anti-free enterprise, extremely left wing group of elitists who seem to think they should have political dictatorship over every aspect of our lives. God forbid, if the delegates in the U.N. get their way we'll have no right to stake any kind of claim or even to go into space unless we have the permission of the all knowing and all powerful commissars. So I agree, to #### with what the U.N. thinks about space.
Also, wouldn't the surface tension on the water be higher?
It makes sense that it would. It would probably behave just a tad like gelatin. All this talk of big waves and jumps from impossible heights has me convinced that going to Mars is worth it just to go swimming.
But you're quite right in my opinion when you suggest that Apollo was more "suicidal" than Mars Direct. Those Apollo astronauts were among the bravest men who ever lived. There were no fully equipped, provisioned, and fuelled ERVs waiting for them on the Moon. No fully functional nuclear reactors to supply endless power to spacious and comfortable habitat modules. Some of those pioneers spent 3 days in their lunar module, something about the size of a toilet cubicle, with walls so thin you could put your foot through them without much trouble at all. If their ascent stage engine didn't light ... that was the end of the party!
I consider it miraculous that every lander sent to the moon performed without catastrophe. Can you imagine how fast your heart would beat right before firing up the ascent engine knowing that if the thing turns out to be a dud your gonna be the first stack of human bones on the moon? Yep, you can't seem to reiterate enough that if we wait to take all the danger out of space missions we'll never be going anywhere. Those were definately brave people who went to the moon.
As for the motivations of manned vs. robotic missions, I think Zubrin makes a good argument in his last chapter of Case for Mars. He defends the notion that societies are doomed to stagnation and anti-human philosophies without a new frontier. I think he's pretty much right although I'm not sure Mars could really serve as that frontier. But I still think we should go anyway just for the hel and adventure of it. Just the fact that it's there is good enough reason for me.
I think track and field sports could find a new audience on Mars. They're boring as #### to watch on Earth but just imagine watching that pole vaulter toss themselves to heights that only athletes on Earth could dream of. We might have to ban javelin throwing events though. It could be a short lived event if they threw them a little to good and through the walls of the dome.
My favorite sport would have to be baseball. It's the only game that I know of that doesn't have a time limit, so you can relax and make it an all day affair.
I think any sport that involves a ball would be ten times more entertaining on Mars than on Earth. Imagine how far you could throw and kick them.
*lol* Ice skating on Mars...I'd fall and break my neck even in the low gravity!
Come to think of it, I bet ice skating could be a popular sport on Mars. You wouldn't really have to construct anything elaborate except for a pool. You wouldn't have to plant any grass or manufacture any plastic substitutes, and on top of that it could stay cold so there'd be less energy expenditure.
Yep, I think ice skating could become the official sport of Mars.
IMHO, non-diverse life, scarce life, if found on Mars, is life that is in trouble, it would be life that is in the process of dying off.
Why? The algorithms of evolution.
Processes to vary the genetic code + processes of natural selection + the enormous power of exponential reproduction means, IMHO, that IF you have any life, such life *WILL*- over time - diversify and engulf its environment, unless it is dying.
I never quite viewed Martian microbes from such a perspective before. I think your point is logical. Microbes typically don't live long lives, they need to multiply out of control to keep their numbers and adaptive abilities up. If we only find sparse colonies of microbes here and there then your probably right, they are clinging onto the edge of extinction since life isn't likely to limit its own population. Environmental conditions usually put the clamps on life.
Precisely because Martian life is unmeasurably precious, if Martian microbes are survivors from a prior warm, wet Mars, we have a DUTY to intervene, to interfere, to assure that such life continues to survive.
Phobos asks whether we are qualified to make such judgments. My answer - "NO, we are not qualified" but if not us, then WHO?
I'm still debating personally though whether its ethical to interfere with life in any way whether it is doomed or not. But to be honest, I'm not necessarily against helping e.t. life if we can.
Oh man, I hope they find salt on Mars. Those are going to be bland veggies without salt to spice them up.
Not to mention that you'd practically need a Saturn V just to launch back into space from Venus. It would be even harder getting into space from Venus than it would be from Earth because the gravity is the same but the weather is merciless.
I'm to much of a cheapskate to join anything even though I did somehow manage to become a member of the Planetary Society when I wrote them asking for some pictures of Neptune (I was like 10) and lo and behold! Not only did I get a heap of pictures but I got subscribed to their Planetary Report to. I got it for a whole year for free! Of course, now that I'm about 2% more mature I realize that one can't support a cause by just taking freebies and not paying up even though I'm thinking of writing them again for some more free pictures.
Phobos wrote: "...Anyways, would you be willing to be the first human to drink Martian water that was only run through a consumer model water purifier?"
Yes, though I can't say I'd be overly excited about it
I think I could feel a jolt of sudden excitement knowing that Mars is flowing around in me, but then I guess I'm easily amused.
Aaah. How can you say that!
Martian water would be extremely pure...
Wouldn't you want to get all the gravel and things like that out of it though? If it's ice it might have all kinds of foreign matter in it that didn't get a chance to settle to the bottom. But really if your gonna be the first to take a swig of the stuff you might as well take it with everything it comes with! Pure Mars!
I think both the political left and right have its fair share of pro-space supporters and detractors. I know a lot of rightist anti-tax people who seem to have a contradictory love of NASA. I also know a lot of big government loving peeps who think the concept of flying into space is the dumbest idea since pet rocks, so in my unscientific opinion, I think the split is pretty even.
As for the swimming pool idea, it certainly sounds like fun, as the water would be much more "wavy" and "bouncy" than a pool here on Earth. The sides would probably have to be a lot higher to prevent all the water from splashing out..lol.
Aw man, just think of the high dive you could strap to the side of that beast. Make it like three times as high then do a big cannonball, you'd drown the whole colony in a tidal wave!!
So Cindy have you already given away that free supply of turtle wax to Byron? I'll try not to take it personally if you did. *sniff* ???
I would like to see Zubrin write a book that answers specific reasons why his critics find his plans unfeasible.
So would I. But you want something he does not have- answers.
The truth is that we are not as close to Mars as Zubrin would have you belive, and he knows it. Eventually, when the technology is ACTUALLY developed, improved, and PROVEN, then his timelines and his proposal might work.
Hey! Don't go raining on my little parade, I'm having a bad day and I just can't take anymore pessimism. So yes #### it, Zubrin is right on and I don't care what anybody says, so I think I'll start writing my chapter in the Holy Book of Zubrin worship, the one where Zubrin rains down fire on unbelievers to smite them for their lack of faith!
I can see how having ponds full of fish would be psychologically beneficial, but co-inhabiting with a herd of cows? :0 Can you imagine trying to keep a herd of cows alive on a six month voyage to Mars? You'd probably need the death star just to hold all of the hay and what happens if they all stampede and run through the walls of the dome?